Screw Interest, Get Commitment

[MTF]

One of the worst mistakes I repeat over and over again as an entrepreneur is confusing interest with commitment.

The difference is simple (yet I still manage to F*ck it up—call me Einstein):

Generating interest: giving someone something for free (newsletter sign-up, free e-book, free sample, free consultation).

Generating commitment: getting someone to GIVE YOU MONEY for your product or service.

If you’re starting your business and you don’t know what to sell, you might be tempted to follow the trendy advice of “building your audience” first. It’s a nice and comfortable path that postpones getting to the moment of truth (that you have no idea what to sell).

If you don’t have clarity about what you can sell before you start your business, you won’t magically discover it while building your audience.

To make matters worse, it’s very likely that your audience’s interest won’t translate into true, backed-by-money commitment.

I’m a big fan of some newsletters and YouTube channels, yet I’ve never spent any money on products they offer and never will. From the perspective of the entrepreneurs who run them, I’m a waste of time and money.

Meanwhile, there’s an MMA store from which I regularly buy fitness gear. I don’t care about the store (no interest), yet I spent way more money with them (commitment) than with the newsletters/channels I’m a huge fan of. Why? Because they focus on selling products, not building an audience.

Would you rather have my interest or commitment?

Can you have both? Of course, with time you can. But you’re most effective when you focus only on one task: and that can be either building your audience or making sales.

Are there some business models that benefit from developing interest first? Of course. For example, you can’t build a podcast without building interest first. But I’d generally advise against such business model unless you have some rare specific skills that make you qualified to do this.

Now, I make a lot of mistakes as evidenced by this post so I welcome all thoughts and counterarguments.

 

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[MTF]

I have a feeling that @Andy Black has a nice one-liner ready to go for this specific topic lol.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

I think the mistake people make is building an audience at the wrong time.

Building an audience is for people who are broke, usually people without much business experience at all. They can stick with it for 1 year + hoping that it will work eventually, with little to no feedback.

But if you've already made $10K, $20K, $30K/mo, you cannot do that. Just like Napoleon said, once you have tasted power, you cannot go back. You cannot go back to being a kid in a garage, putting content on YouTube, hoping it hits, and maybe in 1-year you have a real business. That uncertainty becomes intolerable.

Someone who has already had success must build the audience and sell at one and the same time. Your customers are your investors - they are financing you to build the business or they're not. If they're not, then you shouldn't be building that business.

 

[MTF]

I think the mistake people make is building an audience at the wrong time.

Building an audience is for people who are broke, usually people without much business experience at all. They can stick with it for 1 year + hoping that it will work eventually, with little to no feedback.

But if you've already made $10K, $20K, $30K/mo, you cannot do that. Just like Napoleon said, once you have tasted power, you cannot go back. You cannot go back to being a kid in a garage, putting content on YouTube, hoping it hits, and maybe in 1-year you have a real business. That uncertainty becomes intolerable.

Someone who has already had success must build the audience and sell at one and the same time. Your customers are your investors - they are financing you to build the business or they're not. If they're not, then you shouldn't be building that business.

That's a very good point and 100% my experience. I don't have the patience now I used to have before when I had no money. And I 100% agree with the "your customers are financing your business and if they aren't, you shouldn't be building it."

 

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[MitchC]

If you have something to sell, then you can afford to market and buy traffic and scale up. It’s much easier to build an audience when you can do that. The audience is just a nice byproduct.

Lots of huge audiences and household names have been built this way. Certain gurus spring to mind as an obvious example. The MMA shop you buy from probably has a huge list too.

I guess another consideration is that audiences aren’t really created, they already exist. There’s already people out there interested in something. If you’re trying to create desire or interest in something you are fighting an uphill battle. Better just to fill an existing need or desire.

Can you find those people and tap into and get the flow of that interest from those people? Whether that’s through communities like reddit, ranking blog posts with seo, search or algorithm driven YouTube traffic etc.

If you have some kind of hack almost to how you can put your cup under this flow and catch all those people then you can grow really quickly too.

Thinking of things and looking for hacks in my head goes against the kind of fastlane style business thinking which puts me off, but it’s exactly how Sam parr seems to think about things and he’s killing it so that’s probably a belief I need to change.

Shaans grown his crypto newsletter super quickly, purely because everybody is interested in crypto atm. He didn’t create that interest, he just put his cup out and caught the massive flow.

 

[MTF]

I guess another consideration is that audiences aren’t really created, they already exist. There’s already people out there interested in something. If you’re trying to create desire or interest in something you are fighting an uphill battle. Better just to fill an existing need or desire.

I'd add that you need to be very clear about what specific existing need or desire you're addressing, the motivation people have (way different to sell a fitness product for people who want to lose weight vs a fitness product for pro athletes) and make sure it's already being covered by other people. More often than not if you're the only guy in a certain category it's because there's too little (commercial) value to it.

Shaans grown his crypto newsletter super quickly, purely because everybody is interested in crypto atm.

I sometimes wish I had more popular interests. I'd be way easier to build a scalable business. But a lot of stuff I'm interested in is niche and probably won't grow as fast as this example.

 

[MitchC]

I'd add that you need to be very clear about what specific existing need or desire you're addressing, the motivation people have (way different to sell a fitness product for people who want to lose weight vs a fitness product for pro athletes) and make sure it's already being covered by other people. More often than not if you're the only guy in a certain category it's because there's too little (commercial) value to it.



I sometimes wish I had more popular interests. I'd be way easier to build a scalable business. But a lot of stuff I'm interested in is niche and probably won't grow as fast as this example.

Scale or impact springs to mind here.

You either need a big audience to scale, or a small audience but have a big impact on them.

I think advice for you should be kept to your thread or it will go off topic but regardless, MMA/BJJ are popular, how into them are you? Freediving? People who dive or do bjj are so passionate. Are they looking for newsletters? I used to get the PADI emails after my course and there’s plenty you can write about.

I also still think you think of your newsletter as being super niche when it’s not. Self improvement is a huge market.

 

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[MTF]

Scale or impact springs to mind here.

You either need a big audience to scale, or a small audience but have a big impact on them.

I think advice for you should be kept to your thread or it will go off topic but regardless, MMA/BJJ are popular, how into them are you? Freediving? People who dive or do bjj are so passionate. Are they looking for newsletters? I used to get the PADI emails after my course and there’s plenty you can write about.

I also still think you think of your newsletter as being super niche when it’s not. Self improvement is a huge market.

I think that using a newsletter as a format to deliver whatever you're offering already makes it too niche in most cases. For example, let's say I start a newsletter for freedivers. The fact that it's a newsletter already shrinks my audience size to maybe 10% of what it is because most freedivers would rather watch videos on YouTube (or be trained in person). Same with MMA. It just doesn't make much sense in a newsletter format.

As for my newsletter being super niche - the general topic is a huge market but my subniche is much smaller. Self-improvement appeals to people through magical promises and trendy tips (morning rituals, habits, etc.), not hard truths. Even this forum is a good example. MJ isn't famous at all compared to your typical make money gurus because he doesn't do his business the BS way and that appeals to way fewer people (because most people are lazy).

It's sort of like being in the beauty niche but instead of selling crappy cosmetics made by big companies you're telling people to use as few cosmetics as possible and make them at home. Your audience would shrink from almost every woman to maybe 0.1%.

I'm not sure if it's that much off topic but my newsletter is a good example of a mistake as well. I started it thinking about the audience but I had no idea what to sell. Almost six months after starting it, I still have no idea what to sell and the more I explore it, the more I realize it's not defined enough. I'd have no problems selling products for freedivers (you need a lot of gear) but it's way more abstract in self-improvement if you don't want to write another crappy ebook.

 

[Itizn]

If you don’t have clarity about what you can sell before you start your business, you won’t magically discover it while building your audience.

Disagree with this part.

When initially building my audience I had a general idea of what my offer would be (and to this day it remains basically the same as I envisioned at the time).

But after enouh time talking with my audience, other products and services started to self-identify themselves.

Just got to fine-tune your "fastlane frequency", to loosely quote MJ in TMF . All of which of course takes time and committment to the process.

 

[MitchC]

I know you sent an email a while back surveying your subscribers about what they wanted, did you ask them what they would buy or pay for, I forget.

You could do a 30 days of discomfort group challenge and then upsell that into some kind of continuity community program that hold each other accountable and does uncomfortable things as a challenge. Some kind of discomfort mastermind mens group program.

That’s a crappy idea off the top of my head but there’s something there. I see your problem though, even that idea is still fighting an uphill battle of trying to create a desire or need.

Also I just read the latest issue about goals. What are your goals? It seems you are caught up in your passion and doing what you want to do not what people want and filling a need. You want to do a newsletter, you want to do a self improvement one, but you don’t want to write e books and do the tips and hacks and tricks everyone wants. So what’s the goal here? A small newsletter where you write what you want, or a big newsletter that makes heaps of money? It sounds like if you’re being real it’s the former and you’ve achieved that goal

 

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[fastlane_dad]

Man I think there are so many conflicting thoughts and misinformation flying through here I gotta chime in.

I can dispell any of the 'myths' and 'do this not that' examples in this thread (never mind by hypothetical examples) but by PERSONAL examples from me to everyone I know around me that have been success in each and every way.

I've never built an audience before , and now that I have achieved more or less 'financial independence' - I have all the TIME and PATIENCE in the world to build one. I don't 'care' about sales anymore as much. I can spend a decade working on my audience without a sale!

The pure conversion of a customer is way less relevant to me. Sure - I started building an audience in topics I am passionate about (finance, mindset, cars, etc) - but I certainly DONT need to know right away what it is I might or might not sell in the future to these people. Why? Because I don't have to make a dollar of them - and if I happen to come up with a compelling offer at some point, all the better.

I have also seen SEVERAL people and friends around me - build a platform in a niche (cars, finances, other passions and hobbies) - and YEARS later have rolled out products and services that now that the built audience 'gobbles up', it almost makes their product launches effortless in some sense.

I think in 2022 - It is almost VITAL to have an audience, or work with someone who does. Sure, if your idea is monetization - maybe think through that and figure out a way to incorporate that into your subject matter and delivery immediately to start testing your market - but don't think for a SECOND you can't add on a viable offer down the line to a devoted following.

I think this thread is spreading a bogus idea that you must have it all or most of it 'figured out' before you start. That can only be the furthest from the truth. You can start working on an audience. Or you can start working on your product. Or both.

Larger picture META is to just start - and the offer , and sale can always shape as you are working on your idea.

 

[MTF]

Disagree with this part.

When initially building my audience I had a general idea of what my offer would be (and to this day it remains basically the same as I envisioned at the time).

But after enouh time talking with my audience, other products and services started to self-identify themselves.

Just got to fine-tune your "fastlane frequency", to loosely quote MJ in TMF . All of which of course takes time and committment to the process.

You did have a general idea. Many people building an audience have no idea and I don't think it's that easy to clarify it later.

 

[MTF]

I know you sent an email a while back surveying your subscribers about what they wanted, did you ask them what they would buy or pay for, I forget.

Yes I did ask. Very little interest and that's usually useless feedback anyway as later on those who expressed interest end up not buying. It only works when you tell people to buy right away. Then you see who's really committed.

You could do a 30 days of discomfort group challenge and then upsell that into some kind of continuity community program that hold each other accountable and does uncomfortable things as a challenge. Some kind of discomfort mastermind mens group program.

Yeah I asked exactly about something like this. The most common objection was that there are such communities for free already or that the ones they were a part of didn't really work and they don't want to try again. I feel like this would work better for specific fitness goals (I paid for stuff like that) than general self-improvement (never paid for anything like this).

Also I just read the latest issue about goals. What are your goals? It seems you are caught up in your passion and doing what you want to do not what people want and filling a need. You want to do a newsletter, you want to do a self improvement one, but you don’t want to write e books and do the tips and hacks and tricks everyone wants. So what’s the goal here? A small newsletter where you write what you want, or a big newsletter that makes heaps of money? It sounds like if you’re being real it’s the former and you’ve achieved that goal

I'd say I wanted the former to somehow turn into something big but it turned out not to be particularly rewarding (and completely NOT lucrative).

 

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[MTF]

I've never built an audience before , and now that I have achieved more or less 'financial independence' - I have all the TIME and PATIENCE in the world to build one. I don't 'care' about sales anymore as much. The pure conversion of a customer is way less relevant to me. Sure - I started building an audience in topics I am passionate about (finance, mindset, cars, etc) - but I certainly DONT need to know right away what it is I might or might not sell in the future to these people. Why? Because I don't have to make a dollar of them - and if I happen to come up with a compelling offer at some point, all the better.

You had a 8-figure exit without never building an audience before. Now that you don't CARE about making money you can afford to build an audience. That just proves what I said in the thread. If your goal is to make money you don't build an audience but focus on sales.

I think in 2022 - It is almost VITAL to have an audience, or work with someone who does. Sure, if your idea is monetization - maybe think through that and figure out a way to incorporate that into your subject matter and delivery immediately to start testing your market - but don't think for a SECOND you can't add on a viable offer down the line to a devoted following.

It's interesting when I look at some of my recent purchases and audiences I'm a member of. I spend zero money as a member of some kind of an online audience. If I pay for something, it's something that I found and started paying for right away and never cared about the audience or don't even know if they have one. Maybe I'm an exception to your rule but I doubt it.

 

[BizyDad]

Disagree with this part.

When initially building my audience I had a general idea of what my offer would be (and to this day it remains basically the same as I envisioned at the time).

But after enouh time talking with my audience, other products and services started to self-identify themselves.

Just got to fine-tune your "fastlane frequency", to loosely quote MJ in TMF . All of which of course takes time and committment to the process.

I agree with your disagreement. I have a friend who starts businesses by first building audiences, generally as FB pages/groups. He worries about monetization later.

In the last 12 years I've watched him build 3. The first he sold for $250k after a few years. The second he sold for high 6 fig. And he's now readying his most recent for sale somewhere in the low 8 fig range.

He swears by the idea of building the audience, getting to know that audience, them catering to that audience. He'll bleed money for a year if he "has to".

I've also seen him quickly decide an audience isn't "worth it" pretty quickly, so it's not like he's always right about an audience either.

 

[MTF]

I've also seen him quickly decide an audience isn't "worth it" pretty quickly, so it's not like he's always right about an audience either.

That seems to be a very rare and in this case super valuable skill. Otherwise you can lose a ton of money and a lot of time. It helps that he can bleed money for a year if he has to.

I agree with your disagreement. I have a friend who starts businesses by first building audiences, generally as FB pages/groups. He worries about monetization later.

Sounds super risky to rely on FB like that. But his results are incredible so thanks for sharing that example.

 

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[BizyDad]

Sounds super risky to rely on FB like that. But his results are incredible so thanks for sharing that example.

True.

His most recent venture began 5 or 6 yrs ago, and unlike the previous ones, he built a true blue brand around this one. It was a simpler time then, much less 12 yrs ago when he first began his experimenting in this world.

If he does another, I doubt he starts on FB. But the principles can still be applied to other mediums. He might go email, but he might just invest in vacation rentals and enjoy a more passive lifestyle that allows for way more travelling.

Either way, he's set for life now. All because he built an audience that spawned the idea for a brand.

Here's the fun part (for me). He is in an area/industry that many people would call saturated. If I told you, you'd probably say "Why would someone go into that?"

There's a prominent forum member he completes with, and I've wondered if they know each other considering they probably live with 15 miles of each other and make essentially the same products.

Now I don't know the members revenue, but I believe he's been in business longer, and I suspect my friend will have a higher exit.

All because he essentially built a community and converted them to a group of rabid fans. I have seen people build shrines out of my buddy's products, like they are collector's items (they're not. I mean, no one else is collecting them, but there's at least 4 dudes out there who do). It's awesome and weird and sad and creepy all at the same time.

Now if you can create brand converts at that level, even FB isn't all that risky.

That seems to be a very rare and in this case super valuable skill. Otherwise you can lose a ton of money and a lot of time. It helps that he can bleed money for a year if he has to.

Yup.

At first he got a job at a bank and he threw every extra penny he could into building his first ones. Ate a lot of ramen. Dating for him involved inviting girls over and watching a movie. He'd go out and drink water. He didn't spend any money on anything that wasn't his business or truly essential. Took him 18 months to crack the monetization code.

His later experiments got funded from the proceeds of his previous ones. And he's never looked back.

But he did go almost bankrupt twice. I mean, it wasn't easy and it wasn't just a straight path to the top either.

Still, I see no reason why today's young folks can't copy the spirit of what he's accomplished.

He fueled everything via social ads from the start, so the skills he developed can be learned. I don't think his skill is "super rare". It's just practice practice practice.

And then practice some more.

If you want to look at it this way, you'd be correct to say he did "lose" a ton of money and "wasted" a lot of time. Tens of thousands and 2 or 3 years, in fact.

But what he ultimately gained was quantifiably worth it. I'll bet he could go bankrupt tomorrow and be a millionaire inside 2 years.

 

[Andy Black]

I have a feeling that @Andy Black has a nice one-liner ready to go for this specific topic lol.

Ahhh. Am I allowed only one one-liner? : (

The reason I like one-liners is they're "micro-scripts".

Anyway, here's what springs to mind:


1) Stop building stuff.

I wrote about that in a thread. I even say in that thread to stop building an audience. Not because I think building an audience is a bad thing, but that it's often not your end goal.

• Stop Building Stuff
• Clarity of Purpose

2) I like to think that building an audience is a by-product.

... of helping people

... ideally in public


3) It's ok to help people and not get paid.

... just remember if you don't get paid then it's not a business, it's a hobby.

Nothing wrong with that, unless that's not your goal.

Business is simple: Help people. Get paid. Help more people.

Start. Sell. Scale.



4) For those with a wierd relationship with money that somehow feel dirty asking for money or getting paid:

I think it's a noble thing to get paid to help people.

In fact, MJ even says "Money is proof you helped your fellow man."

Imagine you setup a system where the more you helped people the more you got paid and the more people you could help.

Another thought: If you go out of business you can't help anyone. Or you'll help less people.

Are you doing people a disservice by not getting paid so you can build a business that helps even more people?

And what's with people saying it's better to teach a man to fish while simultaneously dissing people who get paid to teach people to fish?


5) Your market is a demonstrated cashflow.

Your market is the people *already* paying money to solve the problem you're also hoping to solve.

What are people *already* spending money on to solve the problem you're also hoping to solve?

If there isn't anything, then how do you know you've got a market?


6) Fulfil demand first before generating demand?

Are there people *already* running around with credit card in hand? Start by selling to them first and then consider generating demand after.

Video:

• The Online Buying Lifecycle (video)
• What's better than low hanging fruit?

7) "Don't tell the same people different things. Tell different people the same things."

If you find a few things that really help people, then try and get that in front of more people.

I'm currently on LinkedIn and part of me think's it's dumb hopping on a content treadmill where I post daily. The reason I've not dropped it like a hot snot is because I can't seem to NOT post content daily, so it makes sense to post on an open community like LinkedIn rather than just closed communities like this forum and various Facebook groups. I also think it's interesting to see what resonates with people who don't know me.

Oh, and I already have a bank of content that helps people (in this forum and Facebook groups). Me moving onto LinkedIn is me trying to get that content in front of more people.


8) Work backwards from what seems to be the common advice...

We hear a lot about getting people to an opt-in page where they can signup to an email list, where we send lots of good content, so they then buy some DIY info-product from us, and then a few hire us for our DFY service.

I think that's backwards.

I did it the other way:

I first helped people with a paid DFY consulting service.

I then posted learnings and helped people for free in forums and Facebook groups. This brought more paid DFY consulting clients (typically through referrals from the people in said forums and Facebook groups).

Eventually I was asked to produce courses for those who want to DIY it, by members of those forums and Facebook groups.

I produced courses and they immediately sold (with zero sales copy on the sales page) to the people who already knew, liked, and trusted me, and saw me as a helpful expert in my chosen niche.

Now I have a course/membership/newsletter that I know sells - to people who know, like, and trust me, and see me as a helpful expert in my chosen niche.

So NOW I'm trying to figure out how to get more people to know, like, and trust me, and to see me as a helpful expert in my chosen niche.

Only NOW am I working to create an "audience" of people who might buy what I've already established helps people and I can get paid for.

I've not even got a free email list, or a regular paid email newsletter.

I've not even "done" YouTube to date - I just use it as a hosting platform for videos I can show prospects I've *already* chatted to or messaged. ("Here's a video Mr Prospect that explains this better...")

Some would think I'm working backwards. I think I'm working forwards and everyone else is working backwards.

I've built my DFY consulting and productised services. I've built paid courses for the DIY folks. Now I'm working on getting more people to them so they can ascend from free to paid.


Phew... I knew I'd get on a roll when I started this. I swear I wrote a shorter version for this on Twitter. I'll see if I can dig that out.



PS: James Jani did it completely different. He jumped in, started publishing, got results, followed his nose, built an audience, and then monetised.

Don't you just love business? There's so many ways to skin a cat.


Hope that helps!

 

[MTF]

All because he essentially built a community and converted them to a group of rabid fans. I have seen people build shrines out of my buddy's products, like they are collector's items (they're not. I mean, no one else is collecting them, but there's at least 4 dudes out there who do). It's awesome and weird and sad and creepy all at the same time.

The way you presented it made me change my views on this a little so props for supporting your opinion with a really strong example.

If you want to look at it this way, you'd be correct to say he did "lose" a ton of money and "wasted" a lot of time. Tens of thousands and 2 or 3 years, in fact.

No I didn't mean he lost a lot of money on his successful projects. I mean you could lose a lot of money and time if you don't have the awareness you're building the wrong audience that will lead nowhere.

 

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[MTF]

You really outdid yourself with this entire post, @Andy Black. Probably my favorite post of yours right now.

3) It's ok to help people and not get paid.

... just remember if you don't get paid then it's not a business, it's a hobby.

Nothing wrong with that, unless that's not your goal.

You know that I'm not a huge fan of one-liners but this one is very thought-provoking and also appeals to my situation now.

If I'm doing something as a hobby and I know it's just a hobby, I don't even have any expectations of making money. For example, swimming. No expectations, just an activity to do.

But if I'm writing something for a specific project that may be something I'm passionate about but that I don't want it to be just a hobby, there's a lot of frustration. I guess I can only feel good with a clear hobby (zero expectations to turn it into a business, or the thought isn't even appealing like for example starting a career in MMA lol) or a clear business (i.e. if it doesn't make money, drop it). Anything between these two is suboptimal, if not damaging to life quality.

Imagine you setup a system where the more you helped people the more you got paid and the more people you could help.

Another thought: If you go out of business you can't help anyone. Or you'll help less people.

Are you doing people a disservice by not getting paid so you can build a business that helps even more people?

That makes a lot of sense. In my mind, I often struggle to ask people for money because for some reason I think I "owe" them something (like free content all the time). But then such a model is completely unsustainable and eventually leads to burnout where I won't be helping anyone.

5) Your market is a demonstrated cashflow.

Your market is the people *already* paying money to solve the problem you're also hoping to solve.

What are people *already* spending money on to solve the problem you're also hoping to solve?

If there isn't anything, then how do you know you've got a market?

Another excellent one, particularly the last question.

I'd say that my frequent mistake is confusing the market with the audience. So, for example, I imagine that a market is a group of guys 20-50 who are into doing hard stuff to improve themselves. But that's not a market, it's just an audience. A market is a group of guys who are into, say, ultra-running and regularly buy new shoes and other gear they need to excel at their sport.

So if I understand it right, the difference is that an audience is just some kind of a demographic defined by who they are and what they do. A market is a demographic defined by what they BUY.

 

[Dami-B]

You really outdid yourself with this entire post, @Andy Black. Probably my favorite post of yours right now.



You know that I'm not a huge fan of one-liners but this one is very thought-provoking and also appeals to my situation now.

If I'm doing something as a hobby and I know it's just a hobby, I don't even have any expectations of making money. For example, swimming. No expectations, just an activity to do.

But if I'm writing something for a specific project that may be something I'm passionate about but that I don't want it to be just a hobby, there's a lot of frustration. I guess I can only feel good with a clear hobby (zero expectations to turn it into a business, or the thought isn't even appealing like for example starting a career in MMA lol) or a clear business (i.e. if it doesn't make money, drop it). Anything between these two is suboptimal, if not damaging to life quality.



That makes a lot of sense. In my mind, I often struggle to ask people for money because for some reason I think I "owe" them something (like free content all the time). But then such a model is completely unsustainable and eventually leads to burnout where I won't be helping anyone.



Another excellent one, particularly the last question.

I'd say that my frequent mistake is confusing the market with the audience. So, for example, I imagine that a market is a group of guys 20-50 who are into doing hard stuff to improve themselves. But that's not a market, it's just an audience. A market is a group of guys who are into, say, ultra-running and regularly buy new shoes and other gear they need to excel at their sport.

So if I understand it right, the difference is that an audience is just some kind of a demographic defined by who they are and what they do. A market is a demographic defined by what they BUY.

I'd like to think of it this way that an audience is a group of people with a common interest/passion and goal.

A market is a group of people actively looking to purchase a product/service.

Purchase intent is the key difference.

If I'm building an audience it's around people who have purchasing intent but may not be ready to commit right away.

Not everyone you pitch your product or service to would be ready to commit and say yes today, and so you naturally have a way to keep in touch with them over a period of time until they are ready to say yes.

That's the idea behind newsletters or content marketing to keep dating your prospect until they are ready to commit.

That's how I've understood the process to be like, but like I've understood in life there are more ways that lead to the gate of success.

 

[Andy Black]

You really outdid yourself with this entire post, @Andy Black. Probably my favorite post of yours right now.



You know that I'm not a huge fan of one-liners but this one is very thought-provoking and also appeals to my situation now.

If I'm doing something as a hobby and I know it's just a hobby, I don't even have any expectations of making money. For example, swimming. No expectations, just an activity to do.

But if I'm writing something for a specific project that may be something I'm passionate about but that I don't want it to be just a hobby, there's a lot of frustration. I guess I can only feel good with a clear hobby (zero expectations to turn it into a business, or the thought isn't even appealing like for example starting a career in MMA lol) or a clear business (i.e. if it doesn't make money, drop it). Anything between these two is suboptimal, if not damaging to life quality.



That makes a lot of sense. In my mind, I often struggle to ask people for money because for some reason I think I "owe" them something (like free content all the time). But then such a model is completely unsustainable and eventually leads to burnout where I won't be helping anyone.



Another excellent one, particularly the last question.

I'd say that my frequent mistake is confusing the market with the audience. So, for example, I imagine that a market is a group of guys 20-50 who are into doing hard stuff to improve themselves. But that's not a market, it's just an audience. A market is a group of guys who are into, say, ultra-running and regularly buy new shoes and other gear they need to excel at their sport.

So if I understand it right, the difference is that an audience is just some kind of a demographic defined by who they are and what they do. A market is a demographic defined by what they BUY.

One-liners are micro-scripts. Once you understand the thinking behind a micro-script then it can be used as a quick short code.

I can shout at a kid sprinting down the track “Arms!” or “Run tall!” and they think of the drills and training we’ve done.

In this case just now replying to you I figured I’d give the micro-script and my best most succinct explanation for each, and that I’d drop as many as I could from lots of different angles to see which stuck and resonated.

Funnily enough, I can write those without thinking now because each has helped multiple people multiple times in the forum. I wrote about how to use forums and Facebook groups to develop content that repeatedly helps multiple people, and you see the final result when I link to an article that’s a result of that process. (I throw this into the mix because I think it’s specific to what you’re trying to do.)


To answer your question (and reply to the post above)…

In my mind a demographic is something like “All men aged 20-45 who like David Goggins and are interested in MMA.”

A market is people who’ve already bought MMA gloves, or a course on developing a warrior mindset, etc.

I know you don’t like podcasts, but do yourself a favour of going through the discomfort of listening to:

• www.TropicalMBA.com/services

You may also want to watch my workshop replay that I gave to 20 business owners (not marketers) in a paid group and then posted to YouTube for people to watch for free:

• Google Ads Workshop Replay

Now then. Have you gone off to check out any of the threads I've linked to? I don't create threads unless I KNOW the content in them has helped a lot of people - because I've posted it multiple times as comments and then got tired of repeating myself and then create a thread to link to in future. (This doesn't apply to my "Figuring out XYZ" threads which I do to show people how I figure stuff out.)

I wrote about it here:

• How to use forums (and Facebook groups)

And I still have to dig out that Twitter thread that I likely created a forum thread about (or the other way round).

 

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[Andy Black]

A market is a demographic defined by what they BUY.

I don't care about the demographic, just that they want to buy.

Apparently it's mostly women who arrange to get their carpets cleaned. A Facebook Ads agency owner told me they just target women.

As a Google Ads guy I don't gaf what the demographics are. They typed in "carpet cleaning near me" and live in Dublin. That means they not only want to buy, but they want to buy at precisely this moment (my favourite flavour of buyer).

Am I going to only run ads in front of women? No. But I bet it will be mostly women who do the searches.

I'll learn more about the demographic (my ideal customer profile / avatar / etc) AFTER I've loads of paying customers. Lol... how's that for "backwards"?

 

[Andy Black]

It looks like I've not created a thread about how to create battle-tested content. Let me do that now and then link to it.

(Link will be added shortly.)


EDIT: Thread created:

• How to create battle-tested content that helps people at scale, brings inbound leads, and has people pleading to buy a SHORT course

 

[MTF]

I'd like to think of it this way that an audience is a group of people with a common interest/passion and goal.

A market is a group of people actively looking to purchase a product/service.

Purchase intent is the key difference.

If I'm building an audience it's around people who have purchasing intent but may not be ready to commit right away.

Not everyone you pitch your product or service to would be ready to commit and say yes today, and so you naturally have a way to keep in touch with them over a period of time until they are ready to say yes.

That's the idea behind newsletters or content marketing to keep dating your prospect until they are ready to commit.

That's how I've understood the process to be like, but like I've understood in life there are more ways that lead to the gate of success.

That's how I see it now as well and that's a pretty important lesson to remember. Good point about people not being ready yet but still belonging to your market.

As for the last point, I'd say it depends on your preferences, situation, and the product/business model. For example, in B2B I don't see that much point in building an audience.

 

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[Andy Black]

in B2B I don't see that much point in building an audience.

There is a point building an audience with B2B. I get work from LinkedIn just by being active. I can post about any old thing and someone may DM me saying they need help or know someone who needs help with Google Ads. Personally I prefer to call it a network than audience.

I don’t see the point getting everyone onto an email list though. The type of business owners that hire me don’t want to get daily or weekly content from me in their inbox (and I couldn’t be arsed creating it).

 

[MTF]

To answer your question (and reply to the post above)…

In my mind a demographic is something like “All men aged 20-45 who like David Goggins and are interested in MMA.”

A market is people who’ve already bought MMA gloves, or a course on developing a warrior mindset, etc.

Okay, so exactly how I see it as well after reading that previous post of yours. That clarifies a lot and is very helpful to me right now.

I don't care about the demographic, just that they want to buy.

Another good point and I agree with that as well.

Now then. Have you gone off to check out any of the threads I've linked to? I don't create threads unless I KNOW the content in them has helped a lot of people - because I've posted it multiple times as comments and then got tired of repeating myself and then create a thread to link to in future. (This doesn't apply to my "Figuring out XYZ" threads which I do to show people how I figure stuff out.)

I've just re-read them as I read most of them already.

There is a point building an audience with B2B. I get work from LinkedIn just by being active. I can post about any old thing and someone may DM me saying they need help or know someone who needs help with Google Ads. Personally I prefer to call it a network than audience.

I don’t see the point getting everyone onto an email list though. The type of business owners that hire me don’t want to get daily or weekly content from me in their inbox (and I couldn’t be arsed creating it).

Our definitions are different. For me building an audience is about building a following on social media or creating a newsletter. So in that case, you're "networking" (similar to attending a conference) rather than building an audience.

 

[MTF]

I know you don’t like podcasts, but do yourself a favour of going through the discomfort of listening to:

• www.TropicalMBA.com/services

Just listened to the (short) part about the demographic and demonstrated cashflow. They basically said the same thing as you and @Dami-B pointed out in this thread.

 

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[Andy Black]

Our definitions are different. For me building an audience is about building a following on social media or creating a newsletter. So in that case, you're "networking" (similar to attending a conference) rather than building an audience.

I think I am building an audience on LinkedIn by posting daily, or that’s an aim. I’m in Creator mode on LinkedIn and by default any new connections are “followers” and we can’t message each other.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Ahhh. Am I allowed only one one-liner? : (

The reason I like one-liners is they're "micro-scripts".

Anyway, here's what springs to mind:


1) Stop building stuff.

I wrote about that in a thread. I even say in that thread to stop building an audience. Not because I think building an audience is a bad thing, but that it's often not your end goal.

• Stop Building Stuff
• Clarity of Purpose

2) I like to think that building an audience is a by-product.

... of helping people

... ideally in public


3) It's ok to help people and not get paid.

... just remember if you don't get paid then it's not a business, it's a hobby.

Nothing wrong with that, unless that's not your goal.

Business is simple: Help people. Get paid. Help more people.

Start. Sell. Scale.



4) For those with a wierd relationship with money that somehow feel dirty asking for money or getting paid:

I think it's a noble thing to get paid to help people.

In fact, MJ even says "Money is proof you helped your fellow man."

Imagine you setup a system where the more you helped people the more you got paid and the more people you could help.

Another thought: If you go out of business you can't help anyone. Or you'll help less people.

Are you doing people a disservice by not getting paid so you can build a business that helps even more people?

And what's with people saying it's better to teach a man to fish while simultaneously dissing people who get paid to teach people to fish?


5) Your market is a demonstrated cashflow.

Your market is the people *already* paying money to solve the problem you're also hoping to solve.

What are people *already* spending money on to solve the problem you're also hoping to solve?

If there isn't anything, then how do you know you've got a market?


6) Fulfil demand first before generating demand?

Are there people *already* running around with credit card in hand? Start by selling to them first and then consider generating demand after.

Video:

• The Online Buying Lifecycle (video)
• What's better than low hanging fruit?

7) "Don't tell the same people different things. Tell different people the same things."

If you find a few things that really help people, then try and get that in front of more people.

I'm currently on LinkedIn and part of me think's it's dumb hopping on a content treadmill where I post daily. The reason I've not dropped it like a hot snot is because I can't seem to NOT post content daily, so it makes sense to post on an open community like LinkedIn rather than just closed communities like this forum and various Facebook groups. I also think it's interesting to see what resonates with people who don't know me.

Oh, and I already have a bank of content that helps people (in this forum and Facebook groups). Me moving onto LinkedIn is me trying to get that content in front of more people.


8) Work backwards from what seems to be the common advice...

We hear a lot about getting people to an opt-in page where they can signup to an email list, where we send lots of good content, so they then buy some DIY info-product from us, and then a few hire us for our DFY service.

I think that's backwards.

I did it the other way:

I first helped people with a paid DFY consulting service.

I then posted learnings and helped people for free in forums and Facebook groups. This brought more paid DFY consulting clients (typically through referrals from the people in said forums and Facebook groups).

Eventually I was asked to produce courses for those who want to DIY it, by members of those forums and Facebook groups.

I produced courses and they immediately sold (with zero sales copy on the sales page) to the people who already knew, liked, and trusted me, and saw me as a helpful expert in my chosen niche.

Now I have a course/membership/newsletter that I know sells - to people who know, like, and trust me, and see me as a helpful expert in my chosen niche.

So NOW I'm trying to figure out how to get more people to know, like, and trust me, and to see me as a helpful expert in my chosen niche.

Only NOW am I working to create an "audience" of people who might buy what I've already established helps people and I can get paid for.

I've not even got a free email list, or a regular paid email newsletter.

I've not even "done" YouTube to date - I just use it as a hosting platform for videos I can show prospects I've *already* chatted to or messaged. ("Here's a video that explains this better...")

Some would think I'm working backwards. I think I'm working forwards and everyone else is working backwards.

I've built my DFY consulting and productised services. I've built paid courses for the DIY folks. Now I'm working on getting more people to them so they can ascend from free to paid.


Phew... I knew I'd get on a roll when I started this. I swear I wrote a shorter version for this on Twitter. I'll see if I can dig that out.



PS: James Jani did it completely different. He jumped in, started publishing, got results, followed his nose, built an audience, and then monetised.

Don't you just love business? There's so many ways to skin a cat.


Hope that helps!

This is one of the best posts I’ve read here in months. Love it!