You Don’t Have to be a Freelancer

[Andy Black]

This thread is about freelancing not copywriting. I'd not recommend people start copywriting, but often recommend people sell their skill/time.

I've also commented that window cleaning, mowing lawns, book-keeping, PT, etc are all examples of people being self-employed sole-traders, that some could call "freelancers".

As mentioned earlier, there's a LOT of young teenagers and students joining the forum recently. That's along with people who've been in a J.O.B. for enough years to feel there's more to life. MJ's books about getting unscripted appeal to them. The reviews of The Millionaire Fastlane by big YouTube influencers appeals to them.

I recall MJ writing a post trying to get people to start anywhere. Make that first sale without worrying about CENTS initially.

• Is CENTS Destructive to Action?

 

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[RicardoGrande]

View attachment 47361

You can choose to focus on a proven road to true scalable entrepreneurship. Brick by brick. Or you can build your freelance prison brick by brick.

Go on. Keep feeding the fire. Keep “helping people” remain inside their comfort zones. Keep “helping people” stagnate. I’m done.

When I came to the forum I had absolutely no experience talking to business owners (outside of guys trying to charge me 600$ for an A/C service call), no sales skill to speak of and almost no direction . I spent years trying to pick out good ideas and testing and building them but they failed for one reason or another and most of that was having almost no faith that I could do something other people (outside of my job) would pay me for.
Fast forward years later and I've spoken with almost a thousand owners and owner operators, I'm working with double digit amounts of business owners that trust and respect me and I get to leave an awful, underpaid job while providing value and learning the ins and outs of each of the blue-collar/commercial businesses I'm working with. I also got a crash course on cold calling and sales and made some mentor connections along the way.

Didn't you also get your start by picking up the phone and selling a service?
I might not be laying down the bricks for a multi-million nutrition company yet, but I feel a million miles away from my sloppy starting point and with a clearer goal in mind thanks to @Fox

 

[Lex DeVille]

I might not be laying down the bricks for a multi-million nutrition company yet, but I feel a million miles away from my sloppy starting point and with a clearer goal in mind thanks to @Fox

Playing devil's advocate.

What did/do you want to do? Where did/do you want to go?

If it's toward a multi-million dollar nutrition company, has the path you're currently on really brought you closer to that goal? Or are you exactly as far from it as you were when you started?

 

[Andy Black]

So go on. Keep feeding the fire. Keep “helping people” remain inside their comfort zones. Keep “helping people” stagnate. Keep “helping people” wallow in their excuses. Keep “helping people” build their fear of failure. I’m done.

Everyone quit what you’re doing and be a freelance copywriter. The new script says it’s the right move.

You don't need any help from me Kyle. Neither does Antifragile, Lex Deville, Rob, or many who've replied to this thread.

The vast majority of new forum members who join haven't made a single dollar off their own back though.

I keep trying to help people make their first sale. I keep trying to help people get out of their comfort zone of reading books, listening to podcasts, and action faking.

My message is to take a step. Help someone. Get paid. Tada, now you're in motion. Then figure out how to scale.

And yes, I figure selling your time and expertise is a good first step for many.


Can the people arguing in here lead the way and help more people in the forum?

I'm reminded of this story:

Back in 1990 I was on the first day of a course to become an Assistant Club Coach for Track and Field Athletics.

We were welcomed and our first instructor was introduced - some old chap ... who just happened to be one of the top freaking coaches in England!

Wow, one of the top coaches in the country turned up to teach us newbies? I was impressed, and dumb-struck.

He commented on this too, asking whether we thought the best coaches should coach the Olympic athletes, or coach the kids who've just turned up to their first training session.

We figured the best coaches should coach the best athletes, but he just smiled and shook his head.

He reasoned that the Olympic athletes can pretty much coach themselves. That they're so passionate about the sport they'd overcome whatever problems they had... even if it meant asking for help.

Whereas... the young child who's just started in athletics needs the best coach they can get. So they get started on the right foot. So they don't get injured. So they pick up the right skills in a way they understand. And most importantly, so they enjoy themselves and don't drop out of the sport, or even worse, drop out of sports altogether.

We were going to become assistant club coaches in grass roots clubs. We were going to be the first coaches the youngest kids would interact with. This guy's mission, in the two hours he had us, was to make us good enough coaches to keep those kids coming back.

 

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[Antifragile]

I too agree there is too many freelancer threads, but that is because there is a LACK of other threads.
So if you have high level stuff to share - then get sharing it.

Without @Kak and this thread - there was no acknowledgement of this at all.
To move past it, like an alcoholic, admit you have a problem.

No one is saying push all freelancers out.
Title of the thread is:

You Don’t Have To Be A FReeLanCer…​

You are also right about world wide trend moving to freelancing! It is real. No one will stop it, because it's the new "job". Internet made it possible, it's here to stay. But this forum should do better.

You are asking people like me and @Kak to create more positive content. You are a forum sponsor who makes a living by teaching freelancing. I do not have the same time commitment as you, because you have skin in the game to defend your position.

But I'll gladly try, if I feel there is an actual audience. So far, this thread hasn't been encouraging me to invest more of my time into other thread creations. The feeling I got through responses by many of the most active members on this forum is that freelancing is actually the right way to go. You can't suck and blow. Either it is or it isn't.

My point is, this thread is a healthy and needed debate! Want me to invest more time sharing how to make money? Encourage this dialogue.

 

[Andy Black]

You Don’t Have To Be A FReeLanCer…

Why is it written like that?

 

[Antifragile]

Why is it written like that?

Clickbait mocking freelancing Like MJ doing "ChatGPT - google killer?" no basis in reality but sounds interesting.

 

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[Fox]

Encourage this dialogue.

I do - chatting about this topic is badly needed.
But I disagree with the approach.

Kak has a degree in entrepreneurship from a top USA school. I have zero hate for this or his POV at all... but this is not going to be the situation for most people joining these forums.

Yes - I run a freelancer school. Yes - a lot won't go on to make mega millions.
But I meet people where I am at and it is one step along the road.
How far they want to go is then up to them.

Also - I have funded out of my own pocket a ton of guest speakers to come in and show them how to go bigger.
People like @biophase, @Envision, @Ravens_Shadow, @MJ DeMarco, @AllenCrawley and more.

I do everything possible to get these people to get going and thinking bigger.
NO ONE should do web design forever - I say it all the time.

The whole point of my school is to meet people where are at and give them some basic but solid skills to get going.
This is stuff they don't teach in most schools and that a lot of people don't know about.

To send them off to build a million dollar business without having basic skills is totally unrealistic.
And it totally goes against the on-the-ground situation in most countries.

And it is not like there haven't been other Fastlane ads - Biophase had a ecommerce offer, Kak had an offer too I believe, @Envision had a high level coaching offer too (I think I am the only one who paid him $10k for coaching - was super worth it).

But these guys will likely tell you - not everyone succeeds no matter how much help they get.
This journey isn't for everyone - and many won't make it.

So then it is a choice - do you try force the BIG Fastlane goal on everyone, and push out all other versions.
Or - is there space for discussing other stages of the journey and seeing who keeps moving forward.

If I had a 100m a year business then I would be posting about that and running a program around that. But I don't.
But what I do have is a good ability at showing people how to get started - so I use my gifts and share what I know.

For you guys who have gotten to higher levels, I am asking what you would recommend as a solution to what you see as a problem. Like does this thread get to us actually doing anything, or is it just freelancer memes.

I care a lot more about this forum then my ad - MJ can take it down any time he doesn't want it here.

But - if you want a change then please show us some solutions...

----

TLDR: what is the solution then?

 

[Fox]

@Lex DeVille -

If your next business made you 100m... how would you know your time spent copywriting didn't help?

This is where I am not following you guys.

Someone does freelancer > goes on to do bigger things = they should have just done bigger things right away.

Someone else does freelancing > doesn't get big results afterwards = freelancing fault.

Like... if someone worked in a factory stacking boxes for 4 years, and then quits and learns how to learn to drive traffic to a business as a freelancer (or 100 other freelancing skills)... isn't that a step in the right direction?

Wouldn't it be a logical way for someone who wants to go bigger to get started?

(Taking into account they don't keep doing that "new job" forever!)

Or should the person instead just jump in at the deep end and make it work?

Like instead of just throwing memes at each other - what are your suggestions for the person with no skills or resources. How do they get going???

(Totally honest question asking here, just struggling to see how you bridge the gap for a lot of peoples situation)

 

[MJ DeMarco]

View attachment 47361

You can choose to focus on a proven road to true scalable entrepreneurship. Brick by brick. Or you can build your freelance prison brick by brick.

Except for me, freelancing (web design) was a brick that laid a STAIRS, not a WALL.

However, I knew freelancing was a "means to an end" as I had bigger dreams and goals.

Someone who joins Planet Fitness is taking the right step forward. Is it the step forward to become the next Mr. Olympia or fitness competitor? Maybe, maybe not ... really depends on the PERSON and their goals.

Freelancing got me on the playing field, it gave me confidence, and it allowed me to improve my skills without a lot of downside risk.

While I understand the "don't freelance" argument, I think you guys are missing the forest through the trees.

It's easy to have a hindsight bias and say "Boy, those lawns I mowed when I was 18 was a mistake, that's not Fastlane!"

Everyone has to start somewhere which is OK as long as you know it is temporary. Like a job. A stepping stone. One brick on a stairway to bigger and better things.

Is it preferable to jump into your first business that has the potential for multi-million dollar scale?

Absolutely.

Is that reasonable to think everyone can do that?

No.

Especially when you're dealing with a lot of people from lessor developed countries where $1000/mo is a king's ransom.

It's sad to see this debate because I agree with both sides, and clearly no one wants to budge, or accept that 19 year olds who are struggling to pay their smartphone bill can't envision themselves owning a company with 10,000 employees.

I see both sides and I acknowledge different people need different steps.

Hell, in my own life, my step son (who just got a job and has no interest in entrepreneurship) is starting to see the cracks and problems as a 9-5 employee.

Now he's suddenly curious about how his step-father can live the life he leads. (Interestingly, my step-son doesn't listen to a word I say generally speaking) If he told me he made $500 on his own as a freelancer (in his chosen field) I would be ecstatic for him. I certainly wouldn't scream, "that's not Fastlane!"

Not only does he need to learn how to talk to people, he needs to see how people can be self-directed and earn their own $$. It's amazing how this concept is foreign to many (even in my own life) that you don't need a boss or an employer to earn an income. Step one. One brick, one new neural pathway.

Step two is when I'll start screaming Fastlane!

For him, I know his first step NEEDS TO be small -- to make his own scratch without a boss or an employer. That's how freelancing would work for his personal journey based on his experience, skills, and confidence. It's not the end, but the means.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

It's easy to have a hindsight bias and say "Boy, those lawns I mowed when I was 18 was a mistake, that's not Fastlane!"

Speaking of mistakes... if you truly want to make a big mistake for your first entrepreneurial action, join an MLM.

 

[Lex DeVille]

@Lex DeVille -

If your next business made you 100m... how would you know your time spent copywriting didn't help?

This is where I am not following you guys.

Someone does freelancer > goes on to do bigger things = they should have just done bigger things right away.

Someone else does freelancing > doesn't go anywhere = freelancing fault.

Like... if someone worked in a factory stacking boxes for 4 years, and then quits and learns how to learn to drive traffic to a business as a freelancer (or 100 other freelancing skills)... isn't that a step in the right direction?

Wouldn't it be a logical way for someone who wants to go bigger to get started?

Or should the person just jump in at the deep end and make it work?

Like instead of just throwing memes at each other - what are your suggestions for the person with no skills or resources. How do they get going???

(Totally honest question asking here, just struggling to see how you bridge the gap for a lot of peoples situation)

To me, the disconnect is the idea that the skills learned by freelancing wouldn't also be learned by not freelancing just as quickly and more efficiently while pursuing bigger goals.

For example, I didn't need freelance copywriting to write and sell ebooks. I just wrote books that sucked, published them, made money, then Googled things like grammar and spelling to get better. I *was* building a scalable business model, then got distracted. Today, I have no publishing business at all.

Or should the person just jump in at the deep end and make it work?

I don't know what any other person should do, but that's what I did. Looking back, I think I was on the right track before I started freelancing, but hadn't figured it out yet. I was more driven, more bold, and more socially capable.

Freelancing was easy *for me,* so I got comfortable, then got stuck. So I view freelancing as a distraction that wasted a lot of time that could've been spent figuring out how to build the businesses I wanted to build all along.

None of this is me saying "don't freelance." I don't think it's a good idea, but I'm just sharing my experiences and I don't care what direction anyone else goes in.

 

[Fox]

To me, the disconnect is the idea that the skills learned by freelancing wouldn't also be learned by not freelancing just as quickly and more efficiently while pursuing bigger goals.

For example, I didn't need freelance copywriting to write and sell ebooks. I just wrote books that sucked, published them, made money, then Googled things like grammar and spelling to get better. I *was* building a scalable business model, then got distracted. Today, I have no publishing business at all.



I don't know what any other person should do, but that's what I did. Looking back, I think I was on the right track before I started freelancing, but hadn't figured it out yet. I was more driven, more bold, and more socially capable.

Freelancing was easy *for me,* so I got comfortable, then got stuck. So I view freelancing as a distraction that wasted a lot of time that could've been spent figuring out how to build the businesses I wanted to build all along.

None of this is me saying "don't freelance." I don't think it's a good idea, but I'm just sharing my experiences and I don't care what direction anyone else goes in.

Okay ya fair counter points - thanks.

 

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[Kak]

No one is going to change my mind. The freelancing advice mill is a cultist groupthink and the new script.

How did anyone possibly “bridge” the divide between entrepreneurship and script 1.0 without freelancing. It’s a wonder how any business ever got started before eLance and Upwork.

Again for the 3rd or 4th time. I’m not against freelancing. I’m against the advice to be a freelancer to someone interested in business. The title of the thread is “you don’t HAVE to be a frEElanCerrrrr,” evidently I’m wrong, you clearly have to now. That’s how every great CEO is going to do it from now on.

Then come all the whiners. “But I suck at everything and don’t know what I want to do.” Then you’re not ready for entrepreneurship. Go out, make ends meet, decide what you want to do, and make the actual decision to stretch yourself and become the person you need to be to do that.

This is not a make ends meet forum. A million dollars has never had less buying power, but there’s never been less of a desire from members here to even achieve a millionaire status. I’m here with an uplifting message that you can actually do it. I believe you can, you and the proponents of freelancing believe you can’t. I am somehow the a**hole?

I sincerely hope there aren’t folks reading this thread today, dismissing me and @Antifragile as ivory tower gated neighborhood snobs. On the contrary, the freelancer cultists are the snobs. They think you can’t do it. Prove them wrong.

If you don’t decide to try, I hope you don’t think back in 15 years and say “wow, they were right.” I hope freelancing is the magic, life changing, career, or even stepping stone, of your dreams, but I don’t believe it will be.

 

[BizyDad]

So what are we talking about here? Inspiring more Johnny_boys and @Juan Pimentel? Get people to start in home services? More GPM cryptopeeps? Do we want to highlight more Africans like @KnockTheHustle? Guys like @Kokaka and @AmazingLarry and @Carlitos and @MrTrash757 have some of my favorite progress threads and don't get nearly the recognition or attention they deserve.

And while marketing agencies get a bad wrap, guys like GuitarManDan and @Pat D. Rick have their threads going and growing. I know I'm missing several in this category that I like, but I'm tired and not totally with it right now.

I do wish I knew of more ecom based threads, but those seem to be dormant. Maybe someone else can post what I've missed.

Does that help the goal of the thread?

I just want to bring this comment back. Seems like everybody agrees we want more "real business" type threads.

I'm wondering if it's just talk, or if you guys actually visited some of these Fam's threads?

Some of these guys are running international organizations, others have an idea that I just think is cool.

But if the whole point of this is to support people building real businesses, then I agree some of us can write more and start more threads.

But let's also highlight the ones that are working and inspiring us. Let's support the people that are doing the things that we want to see more of.

I asked for any fastlaner to shout out any other fastlaner. Lex and Ricardo trumpeted their own stories and Fox shouted out GuitarmanDan. That's it? No one has any favorite progress threads up in here?



To put it another way, while there have been roughly 2 dozen comments on here in the last 12 hours, this thread has 2.

EXECUTION - Building a Manufacturing Conglomerate Progress Thread

TL;DR: Started a manufacturing company. None of my competition has been able to service the largest retailer in the field. I know I can. I have a meeting with them on Wednesday to demo my products (they reached out to me, VP product management & commercial sales saw my Insta ad) and potentially...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

Ladies and gentlemen, there IS REAL ENTREPRENUERSHIP happening on this forum. It is happening under your very noses, and we're all here arguing about how to better help or advise these people.

Which just goes to show, the grind goes unrecognized. Even here.

How about less arguing and more helping?

Lastly, I want to shout out @Tiago because I see that dude on these little hustle threads so often. Good show Fam!

 

[MJ DeMarco]

but there’s never been less of a desire from members here to even achieve a millionaire status

Sorry, but you can thank culture for that. The "FIRE" mentality of do nothing, buy nothing, and own nothing is being sold to everyone nowadays. That mentality is a close sibling to minimalism and "lowering your carbon footprint." TIME is the new king, and people are willing to go to extremes to own their TIME, to the point of eating bugs, living in 30 year old RVs, and contributing nothing to the economy other than being feeder-funds for Wall Street.

There are people who live like homeless beggars who are selling their lifestyle under the guise of "financial freedom."

Sadly, most people no longer care about any type of real financial freedom (the type that involves any type of luxury or extravagance) and now they're being brainwashed into believing corporations are evil -- instead, they want to lounge on a damn beach while waiting for their index-fund portfolio to make them rich, all while tweaking their excel spreadsheets.

To me, the disconnect is the idea that the skills learned by freelancing wouldn't also be learned by not freelancing just as quickly and more efficiently while pursuing bigger goals.

The word "freelancing" perhaps needs a concrete definition. It could mean anything.

For me freelancing means a side hustle that is created by your own ingenuity and grind. Door knocking, cold calling, and good old fashion grit.

For me freelancing is NOT signing up for an Upwork account where you can pimp your services for the cheapest price. In that case, freelancing sucks and I would not advise it. Not for anyone here, and not for my step-son.

 

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[James Klymus]

Freelancing is interesting. All of the risks and costs of business, Without any of the tremendous financial upside. Essentially a job, Without any of the benefits (Steady pay, Healthcare). And your income may be even MORE linked to your time as a freelancer. You may be able to goof off more at a job and still get paid the same amount, Whereas freelancing you need to deliver a great product.

For example, Uber. You're a 1099 contractor. You pay all of the expensive costs like fuel, depreciation and vehicle expenses, while you barely make more than you would at a Job, Arguably less in some cases. The only benefit is flexibility.

I used to do freelance videography while i was in school. I invested at least 8-10,000 dollars into camera equipment.

People would ask me all the time to do videos for some ridiculously cheap price, Like $150. That would take me at least 8-10 hours of work. That comes out to 15-20 dollars per hour. I never worked for that cheap, But you get the idea. I knew plenty of people who were doing it full time, having to do tons of these cheap gigs with picky clients just to scrape by.

Freelance videographer - Essentially a job. Production studio - A business that you can scale, and detach your time from your income.

 

[Simon Angel]

Sorry, but you can thank culture for that. The "FIRE" mentality of do nothing, buy nothing, and own nothing is being sold to everyone nowadays. That mentality is a close sibling to minimalism and "lowering your carbon footprint." TIME is the new king, and people are willing to go to extremes to own their TIME, to the point of eating bugs, living in 30 year old RVs, and contributing nothing to the economy other than being feeder-funds for Wall Street.

There are people who live like homeless beggars who are selling their lifestyle under the guise of "financial freedom."

Sadly, most people no longer care about any type of real financial freedom (the type that involves any type of luxury or extravagance) and now they're being brainwashed into believing corporations are evil -- instead, they want to lounge on a damn beach while waiting for their index-fund portfolio to make them rich, all while tweaking their excel spreadsheets.



The word "freelancing" perhaps needs a concrete definition. It could mean anything.

For me freelancing means a side hustle that is created by your own ingenuity and grind. Door knocking, cold calling, and good old fashion grit.

For me freelancing is NOT signing up for an Upwork account where you can pimp your services for the cheapest price. In that case, freelancing sucks and I would not advise it. Not for anyone here, and not for my step-son.

Yeah, I think there's a huge discrepancy in freelancing. I started out on Upwork as a freelancer but now manage the email marketing for multiple 7 and 8-figure businesses, sending invoices directly from my company (Upwork fees suck even though they serve you clients on a silver platter).

I've also had TWO offers to take on the role of CEO for two of my clients' businesses for a lot of money. I declined because I'm currently at a point where I enjoy making a good amount of money with minimal input. I sound like a broken record at this point but I only actively work about an hour per day on average.

Anyhow...

None of this would have happened if I hadn't created an account on Upwork 2 years ago. I've learned so, so much in terms of client acquisition, teamwork, employee management, and have become a "wanted" professional in my field.

(Not to mention the satisfaction of making tens of millions $$$ for my clients and getting paid for it.)

And the guy who kicked my butt to do all of this was @Phikey, who also started out by looking for gigs on Upwork as a Facebook Ads media buyer and went on to create a 7-figure digital marketing agency (and STILL used Upwork to find clients). Last I heard, he's hired a CEO for said agency and is traveling the world with his DJ set and acting on his passion for creating music.

Not bad for someone who started out as a freelancer!

In conclusion: This thread is needless scaremongering. The influx of freelancers you're seeing is NOT because of Klaus Schwab's globalist agenda. It's because people live in absolute shitholes like India, Nigeria, and The Philippines where getting paid $10/h on Upwork is almost like a dream come true. And since we're more connected now than ever (big parts of these countries did NOT have access to wireless internet until a few years ago), they're simply finding out about it and are curious.

You don't have to like it. It is what it is.

 

[Tiago]

Appreciate the shoutout @BizyDad.

I also gotta shout out @Phikey. His success in YouTube has me thinking of strategic ways to create my brand.

@Sirrom is also someone who inspired me with his thread. Very rare that he posts, but when he's back, it's always with huge progress.

@Kokaka is also creating an empire.

 

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[Fox]

No one is going to change my mind. The freelancing advice mill is a cultist groupthink and the new script.

How did anyone possibly “bridge” the divide between entrepreneurship and script 1.0 without freelancing. It’s a wonder how any business ever got started before eLance and Upwork.

Again for the 3rd or 4th time. I’m not against freelancing. I’m against the advice to be a freelancer to someone interested in business. The title of the thread is “you don’t HAVE to be a frEElanCerrrrr,” evidently I’m wrong, you clearly have to now. That’s how every great CEO is going to do it from now on.

Then come all the whiners. “But I suck at everything and don’t know what I want to do.” Then you’re not ready for entrepreneurship. Go out, make ends meet, decide what you want to do, and make the actual decision to stretch yourself and become the person you need to be to do that.

This is not a make ends meet forum. A million dollars has never had less buying power, but there’s never been less of a desire from members here to even achieve a millionaire status. I’m here with an uplifting message that you can actually do it. I believe you can, you and the proponents of freelancing believe you can’t. I am somehow the a**hole?

I sincerely hope there aren’t folks reading this thread today, dismissing me and @Antifragile as ivory tower gated neighborhood snobs. On the contrary, the freelancer cultists are the snobs. They think you can’t do it. Prove them wrong.

If you don’t decide to try, I hope you don’t think back in 15 years and say “wow, they were right.” I hope freelancing is the magic, life changing, career, or even stepping stone, of your dreams, but I don’t believe it will be.

Okay… so now what is your suggested solution(s) for the forum?

I’ve suggested many in this forum that would reduce the impact of freelancing threads.

If you got time to make crab in a bucket memes maybe you can map out some actionable pointers that help us get back on track.

I’m genuinely interested in hearing what you have to say.

Otherwise this whole thread eventually goes away and you will just see more of the same.

 

[Andy Black]

Yeah, I think there's a huge discrepancy in freelancing. I started out on Upwork as a freelancer but now manage the email marketing for multiple 7 and 8-figure businesses, sending invoices directly from my company (Upwork fees suck even though they serve you clients on a silver platter).

I've also had TWO offers to take on the role of CEO for two of my clients' businesses for a lot of money. I declined because I'm currently at a point where I enjoy making a good amount of money with minimal input. I sound like a broken record at this point but I only actively work about an hour per day on average.

Anyhow...

None of this would have happened if I hadn't created an account on Upwork 2 years ago. I've learned so, so much in terms of client acquisition, teamwork, employee management, and have become a "wanted" professional in my field.

(Not to mention the satisfaction of making tens of millions $$$ for my clients and getting paid for it.)

And the guy who kicked my butt to do all of this was @Phikey, who also started out by looking for gigs on Upwork as a Facebook Ads media buyer and went on to create a 7-figure digital marketing agency (and STILL used Upwork to find clients). Last I heard, he's hired a CEO for said agency and is traveling the world with his DJ set and acting on his passion for creating music.

Not bad for someone who started out as a freelancer!

In conclusion: This thread is needless scaremongering. The influx of freelancers you're seeing is NOT because of Klaus Schwab's globalist agenda. It's because people live in absolute shitholes like India, Nigeria, and The Philippines where getting paid $10/h on Upwork is almost like a dream come true. And since we're more connected now than ever (big parts of these countries did NOT have access to wireless internet until a few years ago), they're simply finding out about it and are curious.

You don't have to like it. It is what it is.

@Phikey 's YouTube progress thread is awesome. Loved following it.

 

[BizyDad]

Okay… so now what is your suggested solution(s) for the forum?

I’ve suggested many in this forum they would reduce the impact of freelancing threads.

If you got time to make crab in a bucket memes maybe you can map out some actionable pointers that help us get back on track.

I’m genuinely interested in hearing what you have to say.

Otherwise this whole thread eventually goes away and you will just see more of the same.

I know you just jumped back in here, but please. just. stop.

This isn't serving anyone. @Kak had a point to make. He made it.

He also started his own new progress thread to lead by example. I hope he keeps it at least mildly active.

These have already been discussed on the thread previously, but maybe you missed it.

At this point, you are badgering. And this is coming from a guy who has no problem badgering, right (aka me)?

I LOVE a good forum debate more than the next guy and almost as much as Black_Dragon, but this meeting of the minds has lasted so long it is starting to go in circles.

We ALL have better things to do. (Like lifting up those quieter FLF members out there grinding.)

 

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[Fox]

I know you just jumped back in here, but please. just. stop.

This isn't serving anyone. @Kak had a point to make. He made it.

He also started his own new progress thread to lead by example. I hope he keeps it at least mildly active.

These have already been discussed on the thread previously, but maybe you missed it.

At this point, you are badgering. And this is coming from a guy who has no problem badgering, right (aka me)?

I LOVE a good forum debate more than the next guy and almost as much as Black_Dragon, but this meeting of the minds has lasted so long it is starting to go in circles.

We ALL have better things to do. (Like lifting up those quieter FLF members out there grinding.)

I don’t know man - it’s a pretty big dump on guys like Andy Black and others who help a 100 new people a day to get going.

If you’re happy to dish it out then expect some feedback.

I left this thread alone for a long time and then come back into today and it’s BS memes about anyone who has ever mentioned freelancing in the slightest.

I’m not badgering anyone - if you have time to post all of what you DONT want, then throw in some suggestions.

Or… don’t post it at all.

“Just stop it”… and do what? Go back helping people daily on the forums while guys talk smack from this thread.

Someone offer some solutions or then stop talking nonsense about the guys who put in serious time every day to help new members.

I didn’t start this - so offer up some answers or stop posting about it.

* not directed at “you”, but at the tone of this thread. That’s my last post for now.

 

[BizyDad]

I don’t know man - it’s a pretty big dump on guys like Andy Black and others who help a 100 new people a day to get going.

If you’re happy to dish it out then expect some feedback.

I left this thread alone for a long time and then come back into today and it’s BS memes about anyone who has ever mentioned freelancing in the slightest.

I’m not badgering anyone - if you have time to post all of what you DONT want, then throw in some suggestions.

Or… don’t post it at all.

“Just stop it”… and do what? Go back helping people daily on the forums while guys talk smack from this thread.

Someone offer some solutions or then stop talking nonsense about the guys who put in serious time every day to help new members.

I didn’t start this - so offer up some answers or stop posting about it.

With respect, you are saying the same stuff I said two days ago Fox.

Shoot, my first comment took issue with his dumping on an entire industry. I asked for action steps, criticized the negativity, mocked the crab meme and everything.

Maybe I do. Back it up then. We can't just blindly accept your words as truth just because stone cold Kak said so.

If I am wrong, prove me (and numerous others) wrong. Educate me. I'll ask these same questions of you.




If you had to do it all over again, how would 18 year old you start a petro-chemical firm?

----

You guys have written so much text here about what NOT to do. How NOT to think.

Come on @Antifragile and @Kak display some actual wisdom on the things TO DO.

Because every other thread about getting started talks about starting somewhere, anywhere, and learn as you go. Those threads inspire action.

But you guys want to change that around and tell people to figure out what is best first.

You have already put the brakes on one budding entrepreneur in this thread.

You've literally inspired the bad.

But ok. I'm in. Start with the best for me. How?

300+ radio shows about killing bigger and you can't write one paragraph about how to start with the best?



These guys are saying start with what is best for you. You get to decide that, not them. If freelancing is the next step that makes sense to you, go for it and anyone who tells you otherwise can jump off a bridge.

Seriously, there are people who start their careers by folding blankets in hotel rooms, and they still become millionaires.

I'm not saying you should go fold blankets, I'm saying the only things that can stop you are you and death.

I hope you've already taken action on the freelancing.

Get your own material Fam. Lol.

This trainwreck has lasted long enough without going in circles. Take a breath. Step away from the keyboard. Come back with a fresh take. Hahaha.

Go back helping people daily on the forums while guys talk smack from this thread.

Yes to this. This is even better. Because all you are doing is inviting more "smack talk". Learn from my "mistake".

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Where's @Rivoli when you need him?

I think MJ had the best responses on this thread.

 

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[Antifragile]

“Just stop it”… and do what? Go back helping people daily on the forums while guys talk smack from this thread.

I’ll call you out. Do you not make money through teaching freelancers?

Asking me to put in same kind of effort as what you do for a living … but just out of the kindness of my heart is reaching bro. It’s not a fair implied ask by you to me.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Where's @Rivoli when you need him?

He owns a candle manufacturing facility that does millions per year. He isn't likely to advocate freelancing.

 

[Antifragile]

the solution to "no money & no skills" isn't to try to sell skills you don't have. Just pointing that out. That's my main issue with all those posts.

In real life, I get hit up by copywriters. I gave a few of them a try. They sucked. I should't have been surprised. But here we are...

If you have no skills - work on getting skills, not trying to make bank. Get creative on how to make money from employment too. If "Burger king" is your only option, you aren't creative enough.

Example? A kid reached out to cold on LinkedIn. Asking for advice on how to get started in our industry. Sent me his resume. At the right time... I gave feedback, he scored a job. Foot in the door. Fast forward a year later... he's interviewing with my VP Dev for a six figure job. Sure, it's a job and you all hate that and would rather focus on the "internet business". But that's my point, there are thousands of ways to become an entrepreneur.

Side bar update: that kid that reached out, he’ll be joining our team. Went through 5 interviews and nailed it.

 

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[BizyDad]

Hey @Black_Dragon43 and @Kak you know one things politicians do when they are at their best?

Lead people to a peaceful outcome.

I’ll call you out. Do you not make money through teaching freelancers?

Asking me to put in same kind of effort as what you do for a living … but just out of the kindness of my heart is reaching bro. It’s not a fair implied ask by you to me.

Seriously bro? It's not fair? What are you 12?

Let. This. Argument. Die.

Fox obviously didn't read your commentary where you actually provided actionable advice.

For somebody who claims to be anti-fragile, you sure do get prickly about the weirdest tiniest perceived slights. What's with that?

Side bar update: that kid that reached out, he’ll be joining our team. Went through 5 interviews and nailed it.

iS He AnY ClosEr To hIS DreAm?!?!

How do you like it when someone dismisses what you did?

See how my comment doesn't actually help anything. Like that's a terrible response to your action of trying to help give someone a leg up.

Instead of focusing on tearing each other down, how about we all focus on building each other up. And building up others?

Can you focus on edifying and building, Mr real estate developer?

We all have our roles to play on the forum. The lack of respect in this thread is just ridiculous.

Side note... That is a pretty cool story about the employee. Good for you.

 

[BizyDad]

Hey @Black_Dragon43 and @Kak you know one things politicians do when they are at their best?

Lead people to a peaceful outcome.

View attachment 47365



Seriously bro? It's not fair? What are you 12?

Let. This. Argument. Die.

Fox obviously didn't read your commentary where you actually provided actionable advice.

For somebody who claims to be anti-fragile, you sure do get prickly about the weirdest tiniest perceived slights. What's with that?



iS He AnY ClosEr To hIS DreAm?!?!

How do you like it when someone dismisses what you did?

See how my comment doesn't actually help anything. Like that's a terrible response to your action of trying to help give someone a leg up.

Instead of focusing on tearing each other down, how about we all focus on building each other up. And building up others?

Can you focus on edifying and building, Mr real estate developer?

We all have our roles to play on the forum. The lack of respect in this thread is just ridiculous.

Side note... That is a pretty cool story about the employee. Good for you.

Seriously, when @BizyDad is the voice of reason and calmness, y'all need to do some reflecting.