You Don’t Have to be a Freelancer

[Antifragile]

No you don't need a slap.

You like telling people what they need and don’t need. Ok. Got it.

You don't have to start as a freelancer, that's true. But I wouldn't go bashing / reducing it's value to nothing either. It's like bashing somebody going to the gym and using machines instead of free-weights. At least they're going.

If you want to be wold class bodybuilder, maybe get in with the right crowd? Weekend warrior gym chubbies won’t cut it .

Copywriting may pay sweet F all, but that's not the point.

It is exactly the point.

Combine that skill with front end development, back end development, video production, voiceover artist, graphic design, book keeping and taxation, SEO and so on and you suddenly have all of the skills required to build tech startups from the ground up for $0 instead of expending $200-300,000+ before you get past the starting gate.

So… every copywriter must also do all of the above. Got it.

There's also nothing wrong with somebody who just wants to write a few blog posts or websites when they "feel like it", send invoices, and then get a villa by the beach overseas and have sex all day.

Because every copywriter on this forum lives this life. Hahahahhaa

Thanks for the humour. I needed it.

That's a pretty nice way to live too, and in some cases could actually be better than building a startup, especially if the alternative requires bringing in VCs who own your a$$ in much the same way an employee is owned!

Because the alternative to copywriting is VC startup funding. Got it.

You should always be wary of others who project and/or make a living out of telling others how to live their lives.

Ok, I got it. Don’t listen to you. You just projected yourself all over in this post. I’m not just wary, I am picking your arguments apart with ease.

What the hell would they know about you, and why would they care? F*** everyone else. Go after what you want, use every tool and avenue available to do it, and go at your own pace with your own success metrics.

Finally something of value. I believe that was the very point @Kak was making by starting this thread.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[BizyDad]

This made me think. I recently had a similar conversation with someone else. I was asked “how did you get to living in ____ and driving range rovers?”

I grew up in the USSR. It collapsed, I saw hyperinflation as a kid. Life wasn’t sunshine and roses. In fact, it felt like a small hell. No money and no prospects… unless I left somewhere else.

At 17 I won a national spot at the best international high school. This meant a full academic scholarship that covered travel, food, shelter, tuition and books. It was the only way to leave for me… this was the 90s and believe me, everyone I knew wanted to leave to come to America… but 99.999% couldn’t.

I moved countries again a few years after. Still had nothing and came alone. As international student + scholarship, but smaller. Everything I owned I could fit in one suitcase. Working was a must. Or you don’t eat.

The point is: My drive in life came from despair. I worked as a cleaning crew for a “hotel” making beds and changing toilet paper rolls. Worked at a food bank etc.

I’ve hit so many personal lows in my 20s that when I look back now … my personal drive came from desperation. MJ called it the FTE, and I feel I’ve had too many of them.

It drove me to side hustles. Too many to list … all made better money that my jobs.

So I take exception to anyone saying “ivory tower” now that I have high net worth, and successful businesses. My advice to anyone reading is based on how I see the world, not on how I now live.

You like telling people what they need and don’t need. Ok. Got it.



If you want to be wold class bodybuilder, maybe get in with the right crowd? Weekend warrior gym chubbies won’t cut it .



It is exactly the point.



So… every copywriter must also do all of the above. Got it.



Because every copywriter on this forum lives this life. Hahahahhaa

Thanks for the humour. I needed it.



Because the alternative to copywriting is VC startup funding. Got it.



Ok, I got it. Don’t listen to you. You just projected yourself all over in this post. I’m not just wary, I am picking your arguments apart with ease.



Finally something of value. I believe that was the very point @Kak was making by starting this thread.

Oh my goodness. You mean you didn't begin your journey as a fully formed butt kicking entrepreneur?

Wow.

I. Am. Shocked.

You had SIDE HUSTLES?

MORE THAN ONE?!?!

And you still made it BIG?!?!

I thought you were always a "world class bodybuilder" of entrepreneurship.



Gosh @Antifragile you must have been really strong not to let all the other crabs pull you back down.

Began in the USSR, and you almost got stuck in SIDE HUSTLES. The cards were so stacked against you.

Good thing you got out of those side hustles and didn't learn a single thing from any of them, else you wouldn't be as successful as building buildings as you are today.

So I take exception to anyone saying “ivory tower” now that I have high net worth, and successful businesses

Really? He called you smart and suggested you view things through the prism of knowing more than other people...

That's insulting to you?

Is it the part about your greater knowledge leading to people being unable to relate to you and you coming off as "out of touch"?

Because frankly... you had SIDE hustles fam.

Sounds like you weren't ready to hang with the world champion bodybuilders. Or maybe the world champion bodybuilders needed you to prove yourself first because they didn't want to hang with the guy who folded bed sheets at hotels.

Either way, it's hypocritical for you to suggest the freelancing is not a good option for some people. Especially living the life you lived. We pick on Dave Ramsey for giving advice that he didn't live. How is this any different?

The cognitive dissonance between your two comments is Orwellian level double think. You want credit for having started from nothing and pulled yourself up from the bootstraps, but you don't want anyone else using bootstraps. They should just start with real business.

Uh huh. Right. Well, I take exception to that.

 

[Antifragile]

Oh my goodness. You mean you didn't begin your journey as a fully formed butt kicking entrepreneur?

Wow.

I. Am. Shocked.

You had SIDE HUSTLES?

MORE THAN ONE?!?!

And you still made it BIG?!?!

I thought you were always a "world class bodybuilder" of entrepreneurship.

View attachment 47332

Gosh @Antifragile you must have been really strong not to let all the other crabs pull you back down.

Began in the USSR, and you almost got stuck in SIDE HUSTLES. The cards were so stacked against you.

Good thing you got out of those side hustles and didn't learn a single thing from any of them, else you wouldn't be as successful as building buildings as you are today.



Really? He called you smart and suggested you view things through the prism of knowing more than other people...

That's insulting to you?

Is it the part about your greater knowledge leading to people being unable to relate to you and you coming off as "out of touch"?

Because frankly... you had SIDE hustles fam.

Sounds like you weren't ready to hang with the world champion bodybuilders. Or maybe the world champion bodybuilders needed you to prove yourself first because they didn't want to hang with the guy who folded bed sheets at hotels.

Either way, it's hypocritical for you to suggest the freelancing is not a good option for some people. Especially living the life you lived. We pick on Dave Ramsey for giving advice that he didn't live. How is this any different?

The cognitive dissonance between your two comments is Orwellian level double think. You want credit for having started from nothing and pulled yourself up from the bootstraps, but you don't want anyone else using bootstraps. They should just start with real business.

Uh huh. Right. Well, I take exception to that.

For a smart guy you sure know how to miss a point.

I’ve done more wrong things in life than most on this forum. I’ve also failed more than most too. Don’t you get it? After experiencing those bad days, I don’t want another 20 something here on the forum to have a rough go. There are better ways.

Many, maybe most!, can and should do better than just defaulting to copywriting. Don’t do what is most “obvious” or “easy”. Do what gets you further ahead!

What on earth are you going on about?

 

[BizyDad]

For a smart guy you sure know how to miss a point.

I’ve done more wrong things in life than most on this forum. I’ve also failed more than most too. Don’t you get it? After experiencing those bad days, I don’t want another 20 something here on the forum to have a rough go. There are better ways.

Many, maybe most!, can and should do better than just defaulting to copywriting. Don’t do what is most “obvious” or “easy”. Do what gets you further ahead!

What on earth are you going on about?

So if you had to do it all over again, you should have started with building buildings?

Okay, let's back up. I don't know your story. I don't know your attitude about entrepreneurship. Maybe I am missing some nuance here. Here's my question.

Did you really learn nothing from those side hustles? Nothing?

You called them mistakes. In one comment it sounded like you use them to build some measure of credibility. But now you're blasting them as mistakes.

So were they experiences that taught you things that helped you get to where you got and become the man you are? Or were they a complete waste of time?

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Antifragile]

So were they experiences that taught you things that helped you get to where you got and become the man you are? Or were they a complete waste of time?

This is why I find it hard to talk to you. You make it black and white. When life just isn’t.

It’s about going from: bad to good to better!

Bad - do nothing
Good - do something, anything
Better - do what’s best for you

Still don’t get it? Hand puppets time?

 

[BizyDad]

This is why I find it hard to talk to you.

Maybe it's your superior IQ.

Still don’t get it? Hand puppets time?

Yeah, bust out them hand puppets bro. Because there's still a lot I don't get here.

This whole thread it sounds like you and Kak are s***ting on the good. How does that help?

We all know perfect is the enemy of good.

How is the 20 something supposed to know what is best for them? How about the 20 something immigrant?

Did that 18-year-old kid from the USSR always have the goal to become a multi-millionaire real estate developer?

Maybe you did, I'm asking a legit question.

And aren't you the least bit concerned that by telling people that they need to find what's BEST you are actually inspiring more of the BAD?

Now I have to figure out what's best because anti-fragile said so. I guess I'll read another thread, or download another Kindle book.

When GOOD is staring you right in the face.

Action creates traction.

So please, puppet master, tell me where I'm going wrong. How does someone just starting out develop the ability to see what's best?

 

[Kak]

We all know perfect is the enemy of good.

You have it backwards. Good is the enemy of best.

I also am not convinced freelancing can be defined as “good” for anyone in the first world that is interested in scalable entrepreneurship.

@Lex DeVille is a perfect example of a very smart and capable guy who swore off of it. Gee I wonder why? Think it can be “good” for someone with less capability than him when it wasn’t good for him?

I keep going back to his post. It’s the most underrated post in this thread. Here it is, straight from someone who has been there.

An entrepreneur doesn't need the how. Figuring out how is what an entrepreneur does.

I think this is what frustrates me about freelance culture. People go toward freelance because they don't have to figure out how. That part is already spelled out step-by-step and most still can't make it work.

To me, an entrepreneur doesn't need instructions or permission. Instructions are helpful but not necessary. Permission isn't helpful or necessary.

I mean...if Kak saying freelancing isn't entrepreneurship would stop you from freelancing when you think it's worth it, then do you really have what it takes to succeed in freelancing or business?

None of this is a suggestion to start a rocket fuel business with no experience. I don't disagree with Kak's approach to business, but I don't follow it. I follow my own and I don't need permission.

Anyone considering freelancing should step back and ask themselves if freelancing is really necessary or if it's just a less scary (more comfortable) path. Also, ask yourself what are the chances you get stuck freelancing for income and can't break free because you can't go back to a job and you're too scared to go forward as a business.

Think about it, then make a F*cking decision and just do it and give me and Kak and everyone else the middle finger as you rise to success and share how you did it.

I’m not opposed to freelancing, by the way, I’m opposed to it being prescribed to people interested in scalable entrepreneurship on a scalable entrepreneurship forum. I don’t like bad advice.

Maybe it's your superior IQ.

He has also never claimed a superior IQ. Neither of us even know our IQs and we said as much in the infamous IQ thread. This is the crap that makes @Black_Dragon43 pretty accurate when he says you’d make a good politician.

You’re arguing with a fictitious “ghost of opposition.” Claiming some “superior iq.”

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[BizyDad]

You have it backwards. Good is the enemy of best.

Maybe I do. Back it up then. We can't just blindly accept your words as truth just because stone cold Kak said so.

If I am wrong, prove me (and numerous others) wrong. Educate me. I'll ask these same questions of you.

And aren't you the least bit concerned that by telling people that they need to find what's BEST you are actually inspiring more of the BAD?

Now I have to figure out what's best because anti-fragile said so. I guess I'll read another thread, or download another Kindle book.

How does someone just starting out develop the ability to see what's best?

If you had to do it all over again, how would 18 year old you start a petro-chemical firm?

----

You guys have written so much text here about what NOT to do. How NOT to think.

Come on @Antifragile and @Kak display some actual wisdom on the things TO DO.

Because every other thread about getting started talks about starting somewhere, anywhere, and learn as you go. Those threads inspire action.

But you guys want to change that around and tell people to figure out what is best first.

You have already put the brakes on one budding entrepreneur in this thread.

You've literally inspired the bad.

But ok. I'm in. Start with the best for me. How?

300+ radio shows about killing bigger and you can't write one paragraph about how to start with the best?

Damn i needed that slap on the face...though at the moment, I am doing looking for freelance just bc I need money ASAP

These guys are saying start with what is best for you. You get to decide that, not them. If freelancing is the next step that makes sense to you, go for it and anyone who tells you otherwise can jump off a bridge.

Seriously, there are people who start their careers by folding blankets in hotel rooms, and they still become millionaires.

I'm not saying you should go fold blankets, I'm saying the only things that can stop you are you and death.

I hope you've already taken action on the freelancing.

 

[BizyDad]

You have it backwards. Good is the enemy of best.

I also am not convinced freelancing can be defined as “good” for anyone in the first world that is interested in scalable entrepreneurship.

@Lex DeVille is a perfect example of a very smart and capable guy who swore off of it. Gee I wonder why? Think it can be “good” for someone with less capability than him when it wasn’t good for him?

I keep going back to his post. It’s the most underrated post in this thread. Here it is, straight from someone who has been there.



I’m not opposed to freelancing, by the way, I’m opposed to it being prescribed to people interested in scalable entrepreneurship on a scalable entrepreneurship forum. I don’t like bad advice.


He has also never claimed a superior IQ. Neither of us even know our IQs and we said as much in the infamous IQ thread. This is the crap that makes @Black_Dragon43 pretty accurate when he says you’d make a good politician.

You’re arguing with a fictitious “ghost of opposition.” Claiming some “superior iq.”

Wow, that was some edit of your original comment. And I'm the politician.

Dude, the superior IQ comment was a total joke because of the other thread.

But if I wanted to take it seriously, he did make the hand puppet comment. If that isn't getting on his high horse about intelligence, then what is? If funny to me that you can't read the literal words he wrote. Comments like that is why NeoDialetic's ivory tower assessment is spot on. Antifragile totally got on his high horse about being smarter. I'm fine with it. I'm happy to be the dumber one in the conversation. Feed our dumb little brains.

Because so far this is just more blah blah blah. So Lex is right about the bad advice. Ok cool fellas.

What is the GOOD advice? Sorry, what is the BEST advice. Because this thread ain't it.

 

[Antifragile]

Yeah, bust out them hand puppets bro. Because there's still a lot I don't get here.

OK, point taken. I'll do my best. I am at the airport early, enjoying breakfast at a nice lounge, might as well indulge you.

This whole thread it sounds like you and Kak are s***ting on the good. How does that help?

We all know perfect is the enemy of good.

Wrong. I never said perfect. I said BETTER. Again, you are into the "black and white" and it's just no the way the world works.

How is the 20 something supposed to know what is best for them? How about the 20 something immigrant?

40 somethings don't know that. 60 somethings still often don't. But I expect better from every member here on the forum.

If I travelled back in time and was 20 today and was lucky to find MJs books and then this place. Imagine that. Would I want to be told to become a copywriter? Even if it was my idea, I would wish that smart people here warned me - it's a bad idea. Odds of success are less than 1% for someone with no skills. Yet that's what I see here, you in particular, preaching as if it's the way to go for many. The market of copywriters is so saturated it now takes skill, experience, luck and marketing killer skills to stand out and command a good price. It's just a bad F*cking idea.

Worse than that, by focusing on this one idea and then justifying it the way you do "oh but being busy and doing something is better than doing nothing"...

Sure, it beats the jerkoff sucking on mommy's tit in the basement playing video games and binge watching netflix while flying high as a kite on the latest drugs.

But we aren't talking about people like that. This is a forum for THRIVING entrepreneurs and those aspiring to become THRIVING entrepreneurs.

My advice to anyone young and reading this is to tinker, to experiment. Widen your field of options. Do not get locked into a "I read FL book and decided I must have an internet business. Since I know nothing, the easiest way is to become a copywriter" mindset. This is a F*ckery of MJs concepts too. In fact, latest book - Rat Race - specifically profiles a non-internet business! Food.

Did that 18-year-old kid from the USSR always have the goal to become a multi-millionaire real estate developer?

Maybe you did, I'm asking a legit question.

No. I still don't know what I want to become when I grow up

And aren't you the least bit concerned that by telling people that they need to find what's BEST you are actually inspiring more of the BAD?

Hell no. The exact opposite. YOU are.

My advice is to widen your options. Consider a 20 or 100 alternatives before deciding that copywriting or any solo-latest-thing is the way to go. You make money by solving problems. How smug does one have to be today to think we need one more no-experience no-skill copywriter producing more "content"?! Give me a break.

I pity the fool that follows that advice. Working your a$$ off for nothing and thinking "oh but on this great forum I heard you can make 7 figures, if I just stick with it I'll make my first $100!". Instead same person could be crushing it in some other area, something that makes better money, faster and removes that massive financial pressure of being on your own.

Widen your options! Get creative. Do not settle. Aim for better, not the best. You'll never know the best, but you sure as hell will be able to know better when it pays you immediately.

Now I have to figure out what's best because anti-fragile said so. I guess I'll read another thread, or download another Kindle book.

Maybe you do! Maybe YOU do. Because you keep sticking to "do anything" as if the only alternative is "do nothing". This black and white view is my problem with your posts @BizyDad. You are hard to argue with because you've decided and that's the end.

Yet the world isn't like that. You can do better, I can do better, @Kak can do better = everyone can. How? By zooming out and trying many things. Trying more than your copywriting. F*ck it. Try copywriting and if you hit it out of the park - keep at it. But if you are a poor sucker who's been on a treadmill trying and trying and still nothing, maybe you do need to figure out what's best for you. Stop doing things that don't work and start doing things that work. Like I said, even if that means getting a damn job. Nothing wrong with that.

What's best is to do better than you did yesterday. By widening your options, by tinkering with many ideas (and yes, I repeat, it doesn't have to be "internet business" to be successful).

When GOOD is staring you right in the face.

Action creates traction.

So please, puppet master, tell me where I'm going wrong. How does someone just starting out develop the ability to see what's best?

Did the above essay cover it enough? Are we there yet?

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Antifragile]

But if I wanted to take it seriously, he did make the hand puppet comment. If that isn't getting on his high horse about intelligence, then what is?

It is, 100%. I meant it as a full on insult to set you back in your chair. I've just gone down a memory lane, shared my personal story and hardship. It is something I don't like discussing because it wasn't a smooth ride. I wasn't smart enough to make it easier on myself. I didn't have the right "forum" support and you took that to then make a mockery of it. You interpreted it as if I was saying "look at me I struggled and made it, come on clap for me fanboys" when I meant it as "there is no ivory tower here for 20 somethings. I was one of you! I don't want you to bang your head against a wall - my advice isn't from someone you can't relate to, but the opposite."

So yeah, specifically for you, I had to jump on my high horse . My apologies for being grumpy and for the bad "suggesting hand puppets" post. Public apology. Are we good?

 

[BizyDad]

OK, point taken. I'll do my best. I am at the airport early, enjoying breakfast at a nice lounge, might as well indulge you.



Wrong. I never said perfect. I said BETTER. Again, you are into the "black and white" and it's just no the way the world works.



40 somethings don't know that. 60 somethings still often don't. But I expect better from every member here on the forum.

If I travelled back in time and was 20 today and was lucky to find MJs books and then this place. Imagine that. Would I want to be told to become a copywriter? Even if it was my idea, I would wish that smart people here warned me - it's a bad idea. Odds of success are less than 1% for someone with no skills. Yet that's what I see here, you in particular, preaching as if it's the way to go for many. The market of copywriters is so saturated it now takes skill, experience, luck and marketing killer skills to stand out and command a good price. It's just a bad F*cking idea.

Worse than that, by focusing on this one idea and then justifying it the way you do "oh but being busy and doing something is better than doing nothing"...

Sure, it beats the jerkoff sucking on mommy's tit in the basement playing video games and binge watching netflix while flying high as a kite on the latest drugs.

But we aren't talking about people like that. This is a forum for THRIVING entrepreneurs and those aspiring to become THRIVING entrepreneurs.

My advice to anyone young and reading this is to tinker, to experiment. Widen your field of options. Do not get locked into a "I read FL book and decided I must have an internet business. Since I know nothing, the easiest way is to become a copywriter" mindset. This is a F*ckery of MJs concepts too. In fact, latest book - Rat Race - specifically profiles a non-internet business! Food.



No. I still don't know what I want to become when I grow up



Hell no. The exact opposite. YOU are.

My advice is to widen your options. Consider a 20 or 100 alternatives before deciding that copywriting or any solo-latest-thing is the way to go. You make money by solving problems. How smug does one have to be today to think we need one more no-experience no-skill copywriter producing more "content"?! Give me a break.

I pity the fool that follows that advice. Working your a$$ off for nothing and thinking "oh but on this great forum I heard you can make 7 figures, if I just stick with it I'll make my first $100!". Instead same person could be crushing it in some other area, something that makes better money, faster and removes that massive financial pressure of being on your own.

Widen your options! Get creative. Do not settle. Aim for better, not the best. You'll never know the best, but you sure as hell will be able to know better when it pays you immediately.



Maybe you do! Maybe YOU do. Because you keep sticking to "do anything" as if the only alternative is "do nothing". This black and white view is my problem with your posts @BizyDad. You are hard to argue with because you've decided and that's the end.

Yet the world isn't like that. You can do better, I can do better, @Kak can do better = everyone can. How? By zooming out and trying many things. Trying more than your copywriting. F*ck it. Try copywriting and if you hit it out of the park - keep at it. But if you are a poor sucker who's been on a treadmill trying and trying and still nothing, maybe you do need to figure out what's best for you. Stop doing things that don't work and start doing things that work. Like I said, even if that means getting a damn job. Nothing wrong with that.

What's best is to do better than you did yesterday. By widening your options, by tinkering with many ideas (and yes, I repeat, it doesn't have to be "internet business" to be successful).



Did the above essay cover it enough? Are we there yet?

I have used the term copywriting three times in my posts here. Once to Lex and twice as copywriting/freelance. If you read my comments I say it is a perfectly valid place to start. I never say it is the only place to start, I never say it is the best place to start, I never say you will get rich doing it or any of this other nonsense you said I said.

Let's try and have the discussion we are having ok?

Wrong. I never said perfect. I said BETTER. Again, you are into the "black and white" and it's just no the way the world works.

Better - do what’s best for you

You never said perfect. You said better = best for you. I got stuck on how to figure out what is best.

You can accuse me of being a politican, you can accuse me of wanting it black or white, but my logical brain saw better=best and took your words literally. I'm not Professor X, I can't read minds. I only have your words to go off of.

40 somethings don't know that. 60 somethings still often don't.

So thank you for clarifying your words. I agree. Knowing what is best for you is really hard.

Which is why I didn't understand it being a starting point.

My advice is to widen your options. Consider a 20 or 100 alternatives before deciding that copywriting or any solo-latest-thing is the way to go. You make money by solving problems

I agree with this also. This is good advice.

My advice to anyone young and reading this is to tinker, to experiment. Widen your field of options.

I agree with this. All those side hustles do have value. They aren't "mistakes". You've got to take action. You've got to experiment.

You can do better, I can do better, @Kak can do better = everyone can. How? By zooming out and trying many things. Trying more than your copywriting. F*ck it. Try copywriting and if you hit it out of the park - keep at it.

Exactly. That's what I've been saying. Copywriting / freelance is something to try, a next step. It isn't for everybody, but if someone here decides it is for them, I will defend their right to do so and encourage them to give it their all.

Did the above essay cover it enough? Are we there yet?

I think so. No need to dump on copywriting / freelance, and no need to get stuck in that either. It sounds like once we actually focus on what each other is really saying, we are saying the same thing.

 

[BizyDad]

It is, 100%. I meant it as a full on insult to set you back in your chair. I've just gone down a memory lane, shared my personal story and hardship. It is something I don't like discussing because it wasn't a smooth ride. I wasn't smart enough to make it easier on myself. I didn't have the right "forum" support and you took that to then make a mockery of it. You interpreted it as if I was saying "look at me I struggled and made it, come on clap for me fanboys" when I meant it as "there is no ivory tower here for 20 somethings. I was one of you! I don't want you to bang your head against a wall - my advice isn't from someone you can't relate to, but the opposite."

So yeah, specifically for you, I had to jump on my high horse . My apologies for being grumpy and for the bad "suggesting hand puppets" post. Public apology. Are we good?

Yeah, totally. I wasn't offended.

Besides, I get on my high horse plenty 'round these parts. I dish it out, I got to be able to take it, right?

Thanks for having the discussion. I gotta work now.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Kevin88660]

OK, point taken. I'll do my best. I am at the airport early, enjoying breakfast at a nice lounge, might as well indulge you.



Wrong. I never said perfect. I said BETTER. Again, you are into the "black and white" and it's just no the way the world works.



40 somethings don't know that. 60 somethings still often don't. But I expect better from every member here on the forum.

If I travelled back in time and was 20 today and was lucky to find MJs books and then this place. Imagine that. Would I want to be told to become a copywriter? Even if it was my idea, I would wish that smart people here warned me - it's a bad idea. Odds of success are less than 1% for someone with no skills. Yet that's what I see here, you in particular, preaching as if it's the way to go for many. The market of copywriters is so saturated it now takes skill, experience, luck and marketing killer skills to stand out and command a good price. It's just a bad F*cking idea.

Worse than that, by focusing on this one idea and then justifying it the way you do "oh but being busy and doing something is better than doing nothing"...

Sure, it beats the jerkoff sucking on mommy's tit in the basement playing video games and binge watching netflix while flying high as a kite on the latest drugs.

But we aren't talking about people like that. This is a forum for THRIVING entrepreneurs and those aspiring to become THRIVING entrepreneurs.

My advice to anyone young and reading this is to tinker, to experiment. Widen your field of options. Do not get locked into a "I read FL book and decided I must have an internet business. Since I know nothing, the easiest way is to become a copywriter" mindset. This is a F*ckery of MJs concepts too. In fact, latest book - Rat Race - specifically profiles a non-internet business! Food.



No. I still don't know what I want to become when I grow up



Hell no. The exact opposite. YOU are.

My advice is to widen your options. Consider a 20 or 100 alternatives before deciding that copywriting or any solo-latest-thing is the way to go. You make money by solving problems. How smug does one have to be today to think we need one more no-experience no-skill copywriter producing more "content"?! Give me a break.

I pity the fool that follows that advice. Working your a$$ off for nothing and thinking "oh but on this great forum I heard you can make 7 figures, if I just stick with it I'll make my first $100!". Instead same person could be crushing it in some other area, something that makes better money, faster and removes that massive financial pressure of being on your own.

Widen your options! Get creative. Do not settle. Aim for better, not the best. You'll never know the best, but you sure as hell will be able to know better when it pays you immediately.



Maybe you do! Maybe YOU do. Because you keep sticking to "do anything" as if the only alternative is "do nothing". This black and white view is my problem with your posts @BizyDad. You are hard to argue with because you've decided and that's the end.

Yet the world isn't like that. You can do better, I can do better, @Kak can do better = everyone can. How? By zooming out and trying many things. Trying more than your copywriting. F*ck it. Try copywriting and if you hit it out of the park - keep at it. But if you are a poor sucker who's been on a treadmill trying and trying and still nothing, maybe you do need to figure out what's best for you. Stop doing things that don't work and start doing things that work. Like I said, even if that means getting a damn job. Nothing wrong with that.

What's best is to do better than you did yesterday. By widening your options, by tinkering with many ideas (and yes, I repeat, it doesn't have to be "internet business" to be successful).



Did the above essay cover it enough? Are we there yet?

At the end of the day it would be good if someone knows the number.

Like I have seen in youtube before that among the Asian immigrant community who has little education or skill, truck driving is a way out in North America. Take the exam and training. Make 70k-80k a year. Save money and build your own truck transportation company. Hire more drivers.

To some extend the drivers are freelancers also. The more trips they can make the more they earn.

For someone with no money or no skill that at least is a way out.

It just doesn’t make financial sense if someone needs the cash now and jump into building a skill that is not really hot in demand. If you spend time and effort to learn a skill, but you still have to make a great effort to market it to find your own customer, and you don’t have the cashflow to meet the necessity of daily expense.

For most people the best starting point, from a cash and skill based narrative, is actually a job. Or at least learn a skill that sells itself immediately in the market. Cleaning services, driving delivery or coding for others for instance.

 

[Lex DeVille]

I started with a business idea - not with freelancing, and not because it's what someone said I should do.

First, I launched a LEGO business and made around $15k/year, and failed to scale it. Then I launched an ebook business, generated a full-time income, and tried to scale it into a publishing company.

The publishing company grew to 500+ members, and I sold courses to teach people how to write so they could submit books through my platform. Then I published their books and took a cut of the profits from the sales.

My failure was when I got stuck, someone told me to give up publishing and do freelance copywriting because I'd crush it. So I did that, and I was good at it, and that was a mistake that took years to fix.

Anyway, I'd love to see more scalable business progress threads. But that's not a perceived "easy" path to money. The only way we'll get more of those threads, is if we start them ourselves, as @Kak recently did.

Unfortunately, everyone isn't a boss, and we can't expect non-bosses to do boss shit.

Freelancing is the employee workforce of tomorrow. "Work for yourself" is the propaganda machine's key selling point, and it's working well even though most freelancers wonder how they'll pay their bills from month to month.

There's a new scripted path emerging and it goes like this:

"No more 9-5. Work when you want, where you want, how you want. You're in control of your business...BOSSMAN!"



To me, it makes sense that we're seeing more of these threads.

Gurus pitch freelancing as a great side hustle.

Upwork runs televised ads to millions of people saying, "be your own boss!"

Even Chat GPT gave freelancing as the #1 best way to make money fast...



Most of these claims do not reflect my experiences with freelancing.

It's a terrible side hustle, you have many bosses, and very few people make money fast (if they make any at all).

What I have seen...countless times...is a lot of people who fool themselves about what freelancing is, where it's gonna take them, and how fast it's gonna get them there, including myself.

Some people will undoubtedly break the mold. Most will not.

Anyway, who wants to join my new freelance platform, "Slavelance"? You'll work when you want, where you want, how you want, and you'll be in complete control of your business with huge benefits, fast cash, and limitless potential for scalability!*

*Except none of that.

 

[Tacko6]

2 bags of popcorn down…. waiting for season 2 to start



all jokes aside, throughly enjoyed reading all of this so far… great insigt for someone like me

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Andy Black]

Is it just me or has there been an influx of youngsters wanting to build their own income streams? I've seen lots of progress threads of 15 years olds and others looking to start something while juggling studying and exams.

I think it's great they're starting and I personally don't think it matters where they start. Freelance, create an SMMA, dropship, create YouTube channels, create short videos from long, edit podcasts, dive into AI, web development, lawn care, window cleaning, odd jobs, whatever.

I'll meet them where they are and try and guide them towards making that first sale. From there they might get bitten by the entrepreneurial bug and figure out the rest on their own.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

I really like this thread because it's a deep and on-topic discussion. All I can think about is this:

1. Freelancing can be a viable path to entrepreneurship, because you can scale your services as you go. Entrepreneurship doesn't mean you have a master plan for an empire from Day 1. You can do something scrappy and figure out how to bend it, beat it, and force it to resemble CENTS as you go. And maybe you totally shift gears later, developing a product after you gain some experience and interact with customers and the marketplace. (BURN YOUR BUSINESS PLAN! lol)

2. Other people's opinions don't really matter, even if they are your idols or role models. You need to reflect on your own situation and goals and see if you are actually making progress or not. This is your responsibility, nobody else's.

3. We are kind of in a recession right now, even though the definition was changed. The funny money isn't flowing like it was a couple years ago. So, there are a lot less of those "I'm going to make $1 billion from nothing this year" posts. Those posts were garbage anyway. But, my opinion on this leads me back to point #2.

 

[NeoDialectic]

This made me think. I recently had a similar conversation with someone else. I was asked “how did you get to living in ____ and driving range rovers?”

I grew up in the USSR. It collapsed, I saw hyperinflation as a kid. Life wasn’t sunshine and roses. In fact, it felt like a small hell. No money and no prospects… unless I left somewhere else.

At 17 I won a national spot at the best international high school. This meant a full academic scholarship that covered travel, food, shelter, tuition and books. It was the only way to leave for me… this was the 90s and believe me, everyone I knew wanted to leave to come to America… but 99.999% couldn’t.

I moved countries again a few years after. Still had nothing and came alone. As international student + scholarship, but smaller. Everything I owned I could fit in one suitcase. Working was a must. Or you don’t eat.

The point is: My drive in life came from despair. I worked as a cleaning crew for a “hotel” making beds and changing toilet paper rolls. Worked at a food bank etc.

I’ve hit so many personal lows in my 20s that when I look back now … my personal drive came from desperation. MJ called it the FTE, and I feel I’ve had too many of them.

It drove me to side hustles. Too many to list … all made better money that my jobs.

So I take exception to anyone saying “ivory tower” now that I have high net worth, and successful businesses. My advice to anyone reading is based on how I see the world, not on how I now live.

I've spent a good 30 minutes thinking about your post before replying. There are so many directions we can take this conversation but it's too much to go through by forum posts

For one of my lines of thinking, the broad strokes would go like this:

• The Ivory Tower comment wasn't a dig at you. My comment was based on how it may seem to those whom you are advising. I am among the first to firmly push back at the idea that all successful people just lucked into their roles, and hearing your story during our convo only reinforced that.
• I may have needed to do a better job stressing that I think the advice you and @Kak give is generally right for those who value building a big business.
• In the past (especially during my most driven years), I would give advice based on what I thought was the most "right"
• I'm pretty sure no one ever acted on my advice from that time.
• The lesson I learned: Perfect advice that isn't acted on, is worse than good advice that is acted on. I choose effective over perfect.
• Since I am trying to optimize helping others actualize their values, I conclude that the optimal advice is then whatever is closest to that "right" advice they will actually do.
• Some people are self-driven and hungry.
• Some people are completely lost, don't know what to do, have limited skills, and haven't shown previous signs of ever doing anything outside the mold. But they also know they don't like where they are and want to change.
• The first group of people are rare and aren't coming on here asking if they should pick up copywriting.
• Telling the self-driven and motivated person with experience in fixing problems to go into copywriting may be malpractice.
• 95% of people asking for advice here probably fit into the second category. There is no shame in that, especially when you're young. There are only so many life experiences and skills you could have picked up in your early years. Or maybe you had a values shift because of some life events.
• Telling someone that has been a consumer their entire life and has never had an independent thought in their whole life that they should open up X big business is just wasting your breath.
• The most important step that the second group will ever take is the first actionable step—only followed by the second step. The unfortunate set of circumstances is that the longer I give advice, the more I have concluded that it seems like the most aggressive first step most are willing to do is a baby step towards entrepreneurship. Even if that means freelancing just to disconnect from the idea that they need to follow orders from a boss.
• The more I have given advice based on this updated model, the more I see people actually acting on my advice.
• Many fall off and go back to their original lives...Which obviously would have happened to them anyways.
• While others are on their 5th iteration, getting closer to the gold every time. Yea, it sucks that they had to trudge through the mud just like we did and make simple mistakes. But I'm not sure if the process can be reliably skipped. We can only absorb the knowledge we have earned the right to understand. Your mistakes built the bridge to the promise land that you live in.

Thoughts?

P.S.
I think @BizyDad has made some similar observations as me in this regard. If I had to guess, his frustration is stemming from the fact that having people shame those first steps makes his "job" of getting people to do those steps that much harder and it results in fewer entrepreneurs in the end.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[BizyDad]

I think @BizyDad has made some similar observations as me in this regard. If I had to guess, his frustration is stemming from the fact that having people shame those first steps results in fewer entrepreneurs in the end.

I deleted the part where it's in any way "about me" and the above is a spot on assessment.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

I've spent a good 30 minutes thinking about your post before replying. There are so many directions we can take this conversation but it's too much to go through by forum posts

For one of my lines of thinking, the broad strokes would go like this:

• The Ivory Tower comment wasn't a dig at you. My comment was based on how it may seem to those whom you are advising. I am among the first to firmly push back at the idea that all successful people just lucked into their roles, and hearing your story during our convo only reinforced that.
• I may have needed to do a better job stressing that I think the advice you and @Kak give is generally right for those who value building a big business.
• In the past (especially during my most driven years), I would give advice based on what I thought was the most "right"
• I'm pretty sure no one ever acted on my advice from that time.
• The lesson I learned: Perfect advice that isn't acted on, is worse than good advice that is acted on. I choose effective over perfect.
• Since I am trying to optimize helping others actualize their values, I conclude that the optimal advice is then whatever is closest to that "right" advice they will actually do.
• Some people are self-driven and hungry.
• Some people are completely lost, don't know what to do, have limited skills, and haven't shown previous signs of ever doing anything outside the mold. But they also know they don't like where they are and want to change.
• The first group of people are rare and aren't coming on here asking if they should pick up copywriting.
• Telling the self-driven and motivated person with experience in fixing problems to go into copywriting may be malpractice.
• 95% of people asking for advice here probably fit into the second category. There is no shame in that, especially when you're young. There are only so many life experiences and skills you could have picked up in your early years. Or maybe you had a values shift because of some life events.
• Telling someone that has been a consumer their entire life and has never had an independent thought in their whole life that they should open up X big business is just wasting your breath.
• The most important step that the second group will ever take is the first actionable step—only followed by the second step. The unfortunate set of circumstances is that the longer I give advice, the more I have concluded that it seems like the most aggressive first step most are willing to do is a baby step towards entrepreneurship. Even if that means freelancing just to disconnect from the idea that they need to follow orders from a boss.
• The more I have given advice based on this updated model, the more I see people actually acting on my advice.
• Many fall off and go back to their original lives...Which obviously would have happened to them anyways.
• While others are on their 5th iteration, getting closer to the gold every time. Yea, it sucks that they had to trudge through the mud just like we did and make simple mistakes. But I'm not sure if the process can be reliably skipped. We can only absorb the knowledge we have earned the right to understand. Your mistakes built the bridge to the promise land that you live in.

Thoughts?

P.S.
I think @BizyDad has made some similar observations as me in this regard. If I had to guess, his frustration is stemming from the fact that having people shame those first steps makes his "job" of getting people to do those steps that much harder and it results in fewer entrepreneurs in the end.

I think you’re right. @Kak you didn’t go straight to a chemical company. First you sold electricity in a very solo fashion, then Moved up to a custom product. Each thing you did taught you something and helped you grow. Elon Musk went through the same steps. It seems steps rarely can be skipped.

 

[RicardoGrande]

My failure was when I got stuck, someone told me to give up publishing and do freelance copywriting because I'd crush it. So I did that, and I was good at it, and that was a mistake that took years to fix.

Anyway, I'd love to see more scalable business progress threads. But that's not a perceived "easy" path to money. The only way we'll get more of those threads, is if we start them ourselves, as @Kak recently did.

Freelancing is the employee workforce of tomorrow. "Work for yourself" is the propaganda machine's key selling point, and it's working well even though most freelancers wonder how they'll pay their bills from month to month.

...
Gurus pitch freelancing as a great side hustle.
...
Most of these claims do not reflect my experiences with freelancing.

It's a terrible side hustle, you have many bosses, and very few people make money fast (if they make any at all).

What I have seen...countless times...is a lot of people who fool themselves about what freelancing is, where it's gonna take them, and how fast it's gonna get them there, including myself.

Some people will undoubtedly break the mold. Most will not.

Anyway, who wants to join my new freelance platform, "Slavelance"? You'll work when you want, where you want, how you want, and you'll be in complete control of your business with huge benefits, fast cash, and limitless potential for scalability!*

*Except none of that.

Lex, I thought I recalled some of your content here and on the e-mail list/the discord back in the day stating you were doing well, and you even had the upwork restart where you shut down and started from a blank slate and seemed to do pretty well despite it and even went back to it after your shed business.

You mentioned it was just terrible though in this last post, is this for normal scripted people, or your own experience? There's a lot of things I see and try to take heed of that have blown up others and I recognize it's not a walk in the park. Thing is, I literally just got to the point where I can uncouple from a job, work freelancing and make more money while having time to study again and potentially work less hours/day, if my trials over my weekends are to be believed. Sure I can have nightmare clients come up but that's why I have contracts and work to filter them before I start a project. Sure some people might not be okay with the prices I charge but I just don't work with them and prospect so I don't feel "forced" into working with them. I've seen other people blow up but I put a lot of work in over the past 2 years and I seem to be getting a greenlight based on my efforts.

You did mention individuals with mastery or domain expertise working for themselves, I think that's been a long time coming, Naval Ravikant has that "The sovereign individual" book he mentions and to be honest it's more of a surprise more people haven't taken advantage of the web to sell their time directly already.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[constant]

I want to say thanks to people in this thread for the great discussion.

It's very interesting and educative to read your insights.

 

[Fox]

This thread is full of a million straw-man arguments.

Yes - DONT freelance forever
Yes - freelancing can often become a job

But also...

Yes - some people need a place to get started
Yes - for some people freelancing can lead to bigger things

IMO if you can't make freelancing work, then you probably couldn't have made entrepreneurship work.
And if you start freelancing and you don't go on to do bigger things - then maybe it was never going to happen anyway.

One example: Jimmy starts offering a writing service, 10 years later he is still selling 10 pages of content for $100.

Another example: @MJ DeMarco starts with a freelancer business > goes on to build huge entrepreneurial business.

It isn't freelancing, it is the person.

But if some of you want to shit on half the planet and where they are at mentally, financially, economically, and with their actual skills then I guess go for it. Whatever makes you feel better with where you are at right now.

But the person who joins this forum tomorrow is starting with where they are at.
So instead of some thread shitting on them - maybe make some threads helping them up the ladder.

The people on this thread going full rant on freelancers - what threads have you made this year showing a freelancer how to go bigger? Or last year?

If it's such a big pain point, maybe direct this energy towards showing them how to do it.

Cause this thread isn't it.

----

@GuitarManDan started with SEO and web design freelancing, turns it into a very profitable SEO business, is now creating a massive brand management business - will probably do 7 figures profit this or next year.

For every example you guys have - there are other examples of people who did make it work.
The truth isn't at either extreme - it is with helping the people in the middle.

 

[Fox]

These are who you are trying to reach...



100s of new people a week join this forum - and this is where they are currently at.

Maybe some of you guys want to start some threads showing them how it's done then?

"How to turn your freelancer skills into a solid entrepreneurial business"
"How to start an entrepreneurial business with little money and no skills"
""How to turn get going with finding your first Fastlane idea"

Nothing is stopping you guys... hit that new thread button and type it up.

If you have already done it - then get going with making content showing others how to do it.

Or sit around here complaining about it and helping no one.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Lex DeVille]

Lex, I thought I recalled some of your content here and on the e-mail list/the discord back in the day stating you were doing well, and you even had the upwork restart where you shut down and started from a blank slate and seemed to do pretty well despite it and even went back to it after your shed business.

You mentioned it was just terrible though in this last post, is this for normal scripted people, or your own experience? There's a lot of things I see and try to take heed of that have blown up others and I recognize it's not a walk in the park. Thing is, I literally just got to the point where I can uncouple from a job, work freelancing and make more money while having time to study again and potentially work less hours/day, if my trials over my weekends are to be believed. Sure I can have nightmare clients come up but that's why I have contracts and work to filter them before I start a project. Sure some people might not be okay with the prices I charge but I just don't work with them and prospect so I don't feel "forced" into working with them. I've seen other people blow up but I put a lot of work in over the past 2 years and I seem to be getting a greenlight based on my efforts.

You did mention individuals with mastery or domain expertise working for themselves, I think that's been a long time coming, Naval Ravikant has that "The sovereign individual" book he mentions and to be honest it's more of a surprise more people haven't taken advantage of the web to sell their time directly already.

It isn't my intent to tell people what to do. I've done well with freelancing.

I do think anyone who can make it as a freelancer can make it in another business. I guess that's my point. If someone wants to build a freelance business, go for it. Anything less than a business is a waste of time in my opinion.

I would prefer to read cool business threads. Mostly I stick to my threads where I write the story.

At the end of the day, I don't care what anyone does. Ultimately, this isn't a freelance issue. It's a mindset issue. Most people lack the mindset to make it as a freelancer or an entrepreneur. That's a fact.

 

[Harsha_14]

Copywriting proponents always talk about how it’s good for someone just starting out. I want to challenge them to find a single copywriter that went on to start a successful multimillion dollar unrelated company.

It’s a lie, distraction, and cop out. No one shows up to an entrepreneur forum with a modicum of ambition wishing they could be a keyboard ninja 18 hours a day.

The freelance cultist groupthink needs to stop. This is an entrepreneur forum and not a support group for struggling freelancers. We are here to actually thrive.

You might wonder why I’m so vehement about this lately. It pains me to see bad advice so freely flowing.

It’s time we take some ground back, as a forum, for true scalable and high value commerce. It is available to you even if you think it isn’t.

Edit: If you go through the thread there are several examples of entrepreneurs that started without being a freelancer first. I know because I posted three of them. Feel free to post your own examples. The point of this thread is to put on high display some alternative, and higher probability, starts that show it can be done. You don’t have to be a freelancer first or forever.

This thread is a reminder that entrepreneurs are people that think outside the box and are willing to face things that might be more difficult.

yes!!!!!!!!!
This is damn true and the only thing starters want to hear.
I am a 20y old starter of my fast-lane journey not sure if i wanted to create a business or become a freelancer.
I choose business because,
Doing freelancing doesn't create any system for you or one that work for you.
In fact here you don't have to do money-time trade but you get paid for your value.
But the problem is you won't get bundles of paper until you provide value. In order to stack up money you need provide value every time for money trade. This eventually falls into time-money trade.
Instead create a system that provide value for your clients and customers. So that you don't need to be doing it every time for money.
Create a system that provides value than you be a system and hard-typing for 18hr a day.
It is lot equal to a job.
As the tmf suggests. "law of effection".
you are only effecting the person you are providing services. And he the one who is making you work is providing value for many out there. So due to you are involved in the effecting process only upto creating the site u are earning but considerably less.

 

[Kak]

Wow sounds like a smart move!

Signs up.

Introduces themselves as interested in entrepreneurship.



No. You shouldn’t. You came to an entrepreneurship forum. You were likely ready to make the leap into entrepreneurship. The foundation of this place is the CENTS commandments. You can follow them.

Freelancing is attractive because it sounds easy and everyone makes it sound like you’re going to make a killing doing it. It’s not true. It’s no more than a way to make ends meet.

This thread sounds like a tidal wave of “but I can’t do that yet” or “what if they can’t do that yet excuses.” Then learn how. This isn’t an excuse Forum either. Again I’ll say, not a single person was born with an amazing leadership skill set. They built that.



You can choose to focus on a proven road to true scalable entrepreneurship. Brick by brick. Or you can build your freelance prison brick by brick.

So go on. Keep feeding the fire. Keep “helping people” remain inside their comfort zones. Keep “helping people” stagnate. Keep “helping people” wallow in their excuses. Keep “helping people” build their fear of failure. I’m done.

Everyone quit what you’re doing and be a freelance copywriter. The new script says it’s the right move.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Antifragile]

I've spent a good 30 minutes thinking about your post before replying. There are so many directions we can take this conversation but it's too much to go through by forum posts

For one of my lines of thinking, the broad strokes would go like this:

• The Ivory Tower comment wasn't a dig at you. My comment was based on how it may seem to those whom you are advising. I am among the first to firmly push back at the idea that all successful people just lucked into their roles, and hearing your story during our convo only reinforced that.

Thank you for this.

• I may have needed to do a better job stressing that I think the advice you and @Kak give is generally right for those who value building a big business.
• In the past (especially during my most driven years), I would give advice based on what I thought was the most "right
• I'm pretty sure no one ever acted on my advice from that time.

How is advice good for big businesses inconsistent with what this forum should stand for as a whole?
The issue I still have is that there are more young adults here getting the wrong impression. Meaning (and I am glad @BizyDad agreed already that we aren't far apart) for most people copywriting is a bad F*cking idea. For the 1% that should do it, there are plenty of resources here already.

This leads me to my question back to you. You say "no one acted on my advice" but if it was right advice, why does that matter? Why would you lower your bar, your standards? Is it to ensure you convince one more person to just quit their job? What's the end game for them if they can't even listen to an experienced person with "right" advice (however you define it)?

• The lesson I learned: Perfect advice that isn't acted on, is worse than good advice that is acted on. I choose effective over perfect.

Isn't now this mental gymnastics to justify lowering your own standards?
I read it as "sorry brother, I was going to tell you what to do but I think you are not going to listen. Instead of giving you everything I know, I'll dumb it down to ensure you at least do something because let's face it, you are an idiot like the rest of them who just won't listen". Did I get that right?

Sounds horrible. And worst of all - what is "effective" about your watered down advice?

• Since I am trying to optimize helping others actualize their values, I conclude that the optimal advice is then whatever is closest to that "right" advice they will actually do.

Your intent is good, your words are saying "the right things" and we disagree. I don't see the distinction between what is good advice and advice they will follow. With my posts, I assume it is on the reader to be motivated to do something already. I assume that just because you are 20 doesn't mean you are a moron who need ME to decide what advice YOU are going to follow and start watering down my help.

• Some people are self-driven and hungry.
• Some people are completely lost, don't know what to do, have limited skills, and haven't shown previous signs of ever doing anything outside the mold. But they also know they don't like where they are and want to change.
• The first group of people are rare and aren't coming on here asking if they should pick up copywriting.
• Telling the self-driven and motivated person with experience in fixing problems to go into copywriting may be malpractice.

I like where you are going with this. As it highlights how you and I think differently.
This is a forum based on massively successful books attracting self-driven and hungry people. So when you say "first group of people are rare and aren't coming on here asking if they should pick up copywriting" I disagree. I'd like to think that it takes self-drive and hunger to read books and then join this place. Otherwise isn't this just a damn reddit?

• 95% of people asking for advice here probably fit into the second category. There is no shame in that, especially when you're young. There are only so many life experiences and skills you could have picked up in your early years. Or maybe you had a values shift because of some life events.

If you are right about that... it's sad. You are giving no benefit of doubt to the younger generation and if you are right, it is sad.

• Telling someone that has been a consumer their entire life and has never had an independent thought in their whole life that they should open up X big business is just wasting your breath.

I'll come back to that later. Suffice to say that no one here is telling an unmotivated, dependent, no experience 20 y/o to start a billion dollar enterprise.

• The most important step that the second group will ever take is the first actionable step—only followed by the second step. The unfortunate set of circumstances is that the longer I give advice, the more I have concluded that it seems like the most aggressive first step most are willing to do is a baby step towards entrepreneurship. Even if that means freelancing just to disconnect from the idea that they need to follow orders from a boss.

Seems like with @BizyDad we aren't as far apart, the differences are nuanced. Your view is that it is up to YOU to make that distinction. YOU are the judge on what advice someone will or will not follow. That is a problem.

But we all agree that life is a roller-coaster. Success is a string of good decisions moving you forward. It starts small and like snowball, you get better and your abilities get bigger etc. It is not up to me to judge who will follow good advice and lower my own "advice standards" for those who I think won't.

And that's the crux of this. You keep referencing "I give a lot of advice" and you now have a feedback loop as a consultant/coach for people. I am just a business guy. I try to help, sometimes here, other times when volunteer etc. But I don't have the follow up and I may be wrong. But that's kind of my thing, I am not after trying to get 99% to convert from future / present employee to a freelancer.

I am after the 1% who'd get there anyway but needs good advice to get there faster.

• The more I have given advice based on this updated model, the more I see people actually acting on my advice.
• Many fall off and go back to their original lives...Which obviously would have happened to them anyways.
• While others are on their 5th iteration, getting closer to the gold every time. Yea, it sucks that they had to trudge through the mud just like we did and make simple mistakes. But I'm not sure if the process can be reliably skipped. We can only absorb the knowledge we have earned the right to understand. Your mistakes built the bridge to the promise land that you live in.

Thoughts?

P.S.
I think @BizyDad has made some similar observations as me in this regard. If I had to guess, his frustration is stemming from the fact that having people shame those first steps makes his "job" of getting people to do those steps that much harder and it results in fewer entrepreneurs in the end.

I guess we agree on some things but on the biggest item, in a big picture we disagree and that's ok. That's probably what makes this thread valuable. A lively debate.

Agree:
- all of us had a roller coaster ride before any semblance of success
- due to this up & down, action > inaction
- some people, no matter what you tell them, will do F*ck all
- success is cumulative, actionable steps

Disagree:
- motivation is not rare. we are all motivated and if someone isn't - you aren't succeeding in freelance nor any business (big or small). I am not the one to judge and water down my advice because I think someone won't follow my best advice.
- giving advice "think bigger" isn't bad, brother, it's a great advice. Seriously. Imagine your exit number, say it's $50MM and give yourself 10 years to get there. Then cut that time in 10 and I promise you two things:
1. You won't hit it in one year
2. You will discover things, ways and ideas that will make you hit that $50MM number way, way sooner.
Conclusion: thinking bigger is good! Don't be a F*cking idiot either, and know the difference between pie in the sky dreaming and reality. But use tools at your disposal to propel yourself. It widens your field of options way outside your typical comfort zone. Whether you are starting out or have a mid level business, this exercise is helpful.

This is a forum for people who must be at least partly committed to becoming thriving entrepreneurs. Have faith in them.

So... where does that leave us?

I stand behind my advice:

Tinker, experiment, listen to the feedback. Come up with 100 ideas on how you could make some money. DO NOT narrow your vision to "I must have an internet business" and get saddled with being a "copywriter" making no money. There is a world of opportunities out there. I can't walk a mile in any city without seeing something that could make money. And if you are still stuck, let's talk here and brainstorm.

100s of new people a week join this forum - and this is where they are currently at.

Maybe some of you guys want to start some threads showing them how it's done then?

"How to turn your freelancer skills into a solid entrepreneurial business"
"How to start an entrepreneurial business with little money and no skills"
""How to turn get going with finding your first Fastlane idea"

Nothing is stopping you guys... hit that new thread button and type it up.

If you have already done it - then get going with making content showing others how to do it.

The reason I keep telling people not to become copywriters is because I personally hired a few of them in 2022. It's become a "promise land of opportunity" but in fact is a horrible idea preventing young people from using their creativity to generate better ideas. This thread accomplishes my goal perfectly, it makes people pause and think.

And as a next step, 100% agree with you, we need to shift conversation back into gear. Focus on what to do, how to do it better.

This is a good example:
How to start an entrepreneurial business with little money and no skills

 

[Fox]

Most people learn to drive cars = only a few become a professional race driver.
Most people go to the gym at some point = only a few become champion weightlifters.

Some people try to start a business = many don't succeed, only a few win big.
Some people start freelancing = many of them won't go much further, a few go on to bigger things.

There is no guaranteed way for people to create a HUGE profitable business.
You are talking about .001% odds.

Also people start at FAR different levels.
Compare a recent graduate of Stanford versus a teenager in a small town in Slovakia.

So... IMO to have a Fastlane forum the goal should be on creating a bridge.
From where people are now (including all people) to where they might be able to go.

And - to show them how to get started, progress, and keep moving foward.

If you kick out the bottom rungs of the ladder with "no freelancers allowed" you will lose many people.



This is because freelancing is an obvious first step for many people. For many - their only first step.

Now will all these freelancers on the forum go on to do big things? No, of course not.
But could a few of them be helped along the way - yes, definitely.

But again... to make that happen it takes a bridge. Content, feedback, support, guidance etc.

So choice time:
- F*** all of what I said and just keep blasting freelancers - push them all out
- Start building and maintaining the different parts of that bridge and step up as a leader

Keep in mind though - you can't change the forces of the planet. Most people will be freelancers very soon.
You can either be there to meet them and help them. Or lock up the club and talk about the good old days.

Final note - I too agree there is too many freelancer threads, but that is because there is a LACK of other threads.
So if you have high level stuff to share - then get sharing it.