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Building a video games business from scratch

A detailed account of a Fastlane process...

srodrigo

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Still feeling a bit meh about not making a game, but an app instead. But I've committed to making a viable "something" first.

I had to take almost 2 weeks off due to health issues. I'm back into the mobile app now, focused on implementing functionality that is quite independent of the UI itself. Looking at designs at Dribble for inspiration, but I don't have my Mac here to fire up Sketch, so I might just play around with code and see (Flutter helps prototyping with code directly).

This is a dilema when thinking of an MVP - I want a good UI, not just a functioning app. I haven't researched this, but I think the days of a successful functional app with a terrible UI are gone (opinions about this are welcome). It's tricky to get something good enough, as you can always improve the UI more and more and never ship. Feature creep is another issue that I'm fighting as best as I can.

I've kept having more mini-FTEs. My plan of getting me out of my confort zone by moving abroad and getting a JOB is working well. I'm working on delaying my dreams and focusing on building a business to buy my freedom. I hope it lasts for long enough. At least, I'm going to make some steps forward for sure.

I've changed my routine this week to do the important stuff first (best productivity technique I know apart from subtracting stuff):
6:00 - 6:15: breakfast
6:15 - 8:30: work on the app
8:45 - 9:45: commute
9:45 - 18:15: work
18:15 - 19:15: commute
Work time varies a bit, but in average it looks like this. Rest of the evening: exercise, cooking, cleaning, dinning, and other random stuff. Sometimes I have a spare half an hour or so to work on the app
22:00: bed

Weekends are obviously different, and get around 4 hours of solid work per day. Have too much other stuff to do (e.g. cooking eats so much time). I'm going to track my time on the weekends though and see if there are any big leaks I haven't noticed and I can avoid.

On my (long) commutes, reading a few books to help me finding the last piece of the puzzle: a strong enough purpose. This is key, otherwise everything else will fall apart again.
Also, reading How to build a billion dollar app. Let's see if it helps. Reading about digital marketing too while eating, and looking at/learning designs on Dribbble for 15 minutes daily (I quite like it and gets me up to date with the last design trends).
 
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srodrigo

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Something interesting is happening. As I started waking up earlier and working on the app straight away, I feel like my evenings are less stressful. Yes, they are shorter and most of the time I can't work on the app, and that s*cks, but the fact is that I feel less bad about spending the time on exercise, cooking (to eat healthy), house stuff, etc., because the important work has already been done. Having some extra minutes to work on the app is a bonus, but doesn't feel like a necessity anymore.

A nice side-effect is that the tube is less crowded, even making the commute a bit shorter.

Looks like things are coming together a bit better now with the new routine. I'll do my best to stick to it.
 

foodiepersecond

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It's called fortress forever ;)
Go ahead and make Half-Life 3 as well.

Once your game is set up, I would look into a convention called Magfest. Its a super fun convention that primarily focuses on gaming. I've seen tons of indie developers displaying their games there. Its honestly the best gaming convention aside from the popularized E3, PAX, etc. I certainly have an idea or two on games if you ever wanted to start another project :)
 

srodrigo

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Quick update: finished the bulk of basic functionality for my app, and started working on the design. Wrong way around, but just found that Adobe XD is free and good, so I don't need to wait to get a mac with Sketch.

It turns out that enjoy designing apps, and it obviously helps to get a better idea of what you want, so I might just spend some extra time designing other ideas and trying the landing page MVP approach to get metrics. I plan to do the same with the current app before I go back to coding.

I need to focus on getting a grasp on marketing (this skill can be the real deal-breaker these days), even if I eventually hire some agency when things get more serious (a.k.a. get a good number of users for some of the apps/games).
 
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srodrigo

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I've spent a bit more time on research before I carry on, to see what other similar apps are doing.

I couldn't find many similar apps, just a few really. None of them are exactly what I want to make. Between them, they sort of do what I want, which tells me that maybe I've got too much feature creep, although I already have implemented the basic things for each one and should be sufficient to start with. The app with more downloads has exactly one of the features that I consider a must have for subscribed users, but it's pretty basic and I could improve it.

I think I can do much better than them. Some have an average UI or are missing features of stuff that is key in this niche (I've read a lot about personal growth, dozens of articles and books). Even the most downloaded app makes a newbie mistake: doesn't offer a free trial of the premium, it just throws the premium subscription to you after creating the account (yes, they do require create the account straight away, lol). People complained about this on the 1-2 stars reviews and the developers didn't change it. Good for the rest of us.

The only problematic things I found are:
  1. This apps don't have many downloads. The best 3 I found have 500k, 10k and 100k. Given that around 1.5% of Android apps users pay for subscriptions (please, correct me if I'm wrong, this is from my own research Report: The number of people who are fine with paying app subscriptions is growing), that's not a lot.
  2. The app with more downloads relies heavily on content. I'm fine with that, as my marketing strategy is heavily based on content and teaching, but it's a bit difficult to cope with for one guy with a full-time contract.
So I'm not sure this is the right app to make. It might be that the niche is too small, even if I did better than the 500k downloads app.
 

srodrigo

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srodrigo

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I've been working on the design of the app and on the landing page (using a template, but it has images and content that takes some time), just to realise that if I collect analytics and emails, I need to comply to the GDPR, which means more stuff to add (privacy policy, unsubscribe, etc.).

Also, I was thinking that maybe a simple Facebook page + Facebook Ads would make the trick with less hassle? I never considered that instead of a web landing page, so maybe I should explore that route.

Am I doing something wrong? Or is it that it used to be much faster to throw a web landing page out there (e.g. https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/how-i-went-from-financial-app-failure-to-finding-success-on-the-app-store.53510/) ? It feels like nowadays there's more regulation, and also more competition that requires you to make a nice-looking landing page. But again, I could be doing it all wrong. I just want more validation than a couple of apps out there with a few 100K downloads.

I was looking at Google Trends this morning, and some terms on the niche seem to be popular (specially after vacations, totally expected), some others a bit less.
 
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srodrigo

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I realised I didn't explained myself very well on my previous post.

To summarise: I don't want to "build stuff" anymore, as 1) I'm coding like a beast at work everyday, so I don't need more coding at home, 2) I'd rather spend my time now on real hobbies than on building things no one wants, and 3) breaking free is far more important than hobbies, at the moment.

So I'm trying to figure out what's the quickest way to validate ideas. So far, I've gone the app design + landing page route, but that might not be the most efficient way. I might try Google Trends or keyword research as a first step even before I make any mockups on a piece of paper.
 

Hai

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This is all part of the process. You do something. It works or it doesn´t. Adjust. Improve. Do something different. Good to see you getting these lessons in.

Some thoughts(take it or leave it :))

2 things to focus on:
1. Focus and commitment
2. Moving the business forward


Focus and commit to ONE business that you can do decades, even if it fails mutiple times or grows slower than you expected.
Imagine, after 3 months your app has no customer, no downloads, no validation. Will you continue improve your process to get a sale or will you quit? That´s the commitment question.

To move your business forward, you need a sales, sales, sales. What can you do to get your first sale?
Having a prototype? Having good UI in your product? Convincing your first customer? Document your app development to grow an audience? Sign-ups to your webpage? Work on your marketing to reach potential customers?
In the beginning you need 80% sales, 20% product. Both need to be improved over time. Once you have enough sales, you can switch to 80% product(to improve your business even more). Even 50% sales 50% product is fine.
You won´t get sales if your product is bad.
Is your product providing enough value to have enough sales? Even if your niche is small, you will find a way to improve your product and expand somehow, if you are committed to provide value to your customer. This ties back to commitment long-term even through failure.
You already have soft proof.
 

srodrigo

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This is all part of the process. You do something. It works or it doesn´t. Adjust. Improve. Do something different. Good to see you getting these lessons in.

I read this recently on a book. No matter how much work you put, it will end up making you unhappy if you don't accomplish. Business results, work you are proud of in case you are an artist, etc. It doesn't matter what, but you need some achievements to avoid the crash. I'm there at the moment.

Focus and commit to ONE business that you can do decades, even if it fails mutiple times or grows slower than you expected.
Imagine, after 3 months your app has no customer, no downloads, no validation. Will you continue improve your process to get a sale or will you quit? That´s the commitment question.

That's the problem. If I have to commit to just one for decades, I'd go back to video games, which is the final goal, but in my opinion less likely to be successful (although there's now a new market cycle coming up that could either kill indies or give them a better chance). I'm prioritising making a good enough money machine eventually to then have all the time to do whatever the f I want. So I chose mobile apps, or potentially some SaaS (although mobile games can fade normal apps, so there's some synergy there).

I spent almost one week exploring digital marketing. The reason is: it doesn't matter what I build if I can't sell it. So a digital marketing business could be another option that kills two birds with one stone (learn about the topic, and have a business with potential recurring revenue). But I'm more inclined to carry on with what I'm doing, and learn just the bits of marketing I need before I can justify outsourcing it.

To move your business forward, you need a sales, sales, sales. What can you do to get your first sale?
Having a prototype? Having good UI in your product? Convincing your first customer? Document your app development to grow an audience? Sign-ups to your webpage? Work on your marketing to reach potential customers?

That's what I'm trying to figure out. I want validation upfront. I might need to think twice before I even choose the validation method.

In the beginning you need 80% sales, 20% product. Both need to be improved over time. Once you have enough sales, you can switch to 80% product(to improve your business even more). Even 50% sales 50% product is fine.
You won´t get sales if your product is bad.
Is your product providing enough value to have enough sales? Even if your niche is small, you will find a way to improve your product and expand somehow, if you are committed to provide value to your customer. This ties back to commitment long-term even through failure.
You already have soft proof.
I think I'm committed to (at least on mobile apps/SaaS) make something if it's going to be valuable for others. I don't even want to finish the app just for myself, as I originally stated, I prefer to spend the time on something people want to use.

Also, I'm back to grunt client work, and the first few weeks were alright, but it's reminded me how little I like it. I'm quite committed to break the time for money chain. The vehicle (business) can change, but the goal is there.
 
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Hai

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I think I'm committed to (at least on mobile apps/SaaS) make something if it's going to be valuable for others. I don't even want to finish the app just for myself, as I originally stated, I prefer to spend the time on something people want to use.

Games, mobile apps, saas and digital marketing all have the same level of difficulty. It depends on the execution and the level of value you can provide with them.

Let´s say you make a game. A lot of people are "just making games for fun".
You approach it differently. You´re a fastlaner. You ask, how do I get the first sale as fast as possible(by providing value)?

You get the first sale by:
1. Showing gamers that you are constantly working on your product and improving it every day
2. WOWing with your graphics even before the game is made
3. Show that your game will provide value in some way and building trust by proving it to your audience

I'm prioritising making a good enough money machine eventually to then have all the time to do whatever the f I want. So I chose mobile apps, or potentially some SaaS (although mobile games can fade normal apps, so there's some synergy there).

Is there really a way to make quick bucks by chosing the right bullet?
 

srodrigo

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Games, mobile apps, saas and digital marketing all have the same level of difficulty. It depends on the execution and the level of value you can provide with them.

Hmm not sure we agree on this. All of them have difficulties, but some of them have very different ones. For example, to start a digital marketing agency, you don't even need to know much about the topic to start with (see Sean's thread), but sales. And the fact that you've got paying clients gives you the ability to outsource and get profitable since day one. On the contrary, outsourcing a game, app or SaaS costs lots of monie$, although the potential to scale is massive. I think the challenges are different.

Anyway, I agree that great value and execution always gives you a better chance.

You get the first sale by:
1. Showing gamers that you are constantly working on your product and improving it every day

This is very important. I'm following someone on Twitter who's making a beautiful [not-sure-what-yet, maybe farming]game and he/she has been tweeting about it since early (at least one year, probably more), and the game look has improved massively. Better forget that the dev is doing everything, including coding, graphics and music, which is probably why it's taking him/her ages to finish. But I can see that the game will have success, as people empathise with someone making a cute game on their own and seeing progress every few weeks. The guy who made Stardew Valley did the same, but sharing on some blog, and built a following that were literately willing to throw their wallets at him before the game was even close to completion (this is a big outlier though).

We all know about Minecraft and how its development was shared since very early.

If I ever go back into it, I'll make sure I do this, as it's also a way to validate the idea.

2. WOWing with your graphics even before the game is made

This is why real artists (or deep pockets that can afford paying good artists) have an advantage in the early stages. Making a mockup or prototype that looks great and spreading it over the internet can tell you whether potential buyers like it or not, or you can start a Kickstarted campaign (discussed with @NicholasCato). It can be time consuming compared to webs or apps though, but we can't do much about this.

3. Show that your game will provide value in some way and building trust by proving it to your audience

Release often, release early? Hell yeah. Again, most indie games that do this are usually months in development before they have something they feel they can share, due to the amount of initial work required. Not sure whether they are being as lean as they should though.

Is there really a way to make quick bucks by chosing the right bullet?
I don't really think so. But, as some people have proved, there are businesses that can be profitable early on (usually service businesses), whereas others (products) can take long to ship and monetise, and some kind of products take longer than others.

Looking for the quick bucks bullet would lead to money chasing. I want to think in terms of value chasing instead.
 

EdKirby

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This was an interesting read. I just read the entire thing in one go. I'm a game developer as well so I was really interested in your progress. I totally understand why you shelved the game. I've been working on mine for several years. It's been a long road indeed and I've shelved my "baby" for a couple of months at a time here and there as it could get to be overwhelming. It's about ready for prime time though. yay.

Like you, I've been having (self) doubts and whether or not it'll be well received. This just as I'm finishing up, go figure. But like what @MJ DeMarco said, "do the work and let the market tell you otherwise". That advice, among a couple of other things, really turned it around for me. So thanks for starting this thread.

There was also a lot of other good advice from the others such as @Vaughn whose game marketing knowledge would be invaluable to have. I'll have to reach out for some advice.

If you ever get back to your game and have any questions about Unity let me know. I've been working with it for about 7 years and if I don't know, I know people who would.

Good luck with the new app! Love to hear more about it.

Edited for punctuation.
 
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srodrigo

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This was an interesting read. I just read the entire thing in one go. I'm a game developer as well so I was really interested in your progress. I totally understand why you shelved the game. I've been working on mine for several years. It's been a long road indeed and I've shelved my "baby" for a couple of months at a time here and there as it could get to be overwhelming. It's about ready for prime time though. yay.

Like you, I've been having (self) doubts and whether or not it'll be well received. This just as I'm finishing up, go figure. But like what @MJ DeMarco said, "do the work and let the market tell you otherwise". That advice, among a couple of other things, really turned it around for me. So thanks for starting this thread.

There was also a lot of other good advice from the others such as @Vaughn whose game marketing knowledge would be invaluable to have. I'll have to reach out for some advice.

If you ever get back to your game and have any questions about Unity let me know. I've been working with it for about 7 years and if I don't know, I know people who would.

Good luck with the new app! Love to hear more about it.

Edited for punctuation.
Thanks for reading this thread. I'm happy that you and other people found it useful, it was well worth starting.

More than shelving a game, I didn't actually start a medium/large one. I have a couple I'd like to make, but they are just too big. This is my problem with games: I can make a mobile app MVP in 3 months (depending on the app), but I cannot make a game in 3 months, no matter how hard I work. It boils down to what MJ says about the gum machine. I only need to be right once, but if I can get more balls with mobile apps than with games because they take shorter to make, I might have a better chance of succeeding. Spending years making a game that God knows if people are gonna play sounds unwise from the business point of view.

It's great that you've got your game almost there. Is there anything you'd like to share after your (long) journey? I'd really appreciate it, and probably other people too. Would have been worth it even if the game (hope not) doesn't do well?


Thanks for offering help with Unity. I didn't have massive problems so far. Luckily, it's the part I struggle the less, but it's always good to have people to ask for advice if needed.
 

srodrigo

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Now that I'm here, progress on the app:

I ditched the landing page and worked on styling some of the screens. It's starting to look nice. I still have a lot to do though, and I've lost some time due to annoying heath problems and other stuff going on. I'm not finishing it by the end of the year, sadly. I don't want it to take longer than the end of January though. I'll do my best to hit that deadline.
 

EdKirby

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but I cannot make a game in 3 months

I would agree with this except for one thing, Hypercasual games. The hypercasual genre is where an indie can start to bang something out in a few hours and have an MVP in a week and get it released and getting data. Then with that data it's possible to get a publishing deal with Voodoo or Ketchap etc. Not a slam dunk given all the competition but the turnaround time or process/feedback loop is much faster.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just mentioning it because this is where I'm moving towards after my game is released. As a side note, regardless if one of the many ideas I have for a hypercasual game hits, it's a great way to learn various skills fast. Something that I should have realized way before now.

That being said I'm also looking at getting back to my roots and dusting off the skills needed to build SaaSs and iOS apps. I mentioned in another thread that games are candy where as a SaaS or an app can potentially solve a painful problem and therefore have a better chance of making money. People are fickle and it's harder to determine what someone is going to like when it comes to games.

It's great that you've got your game almost there. Is there anything you'd like to share after your (long) journey? I'd really appreciate it, and probably other people too. Would have been worth it even if the game (hope not) doesn't do well?

Thought about doing this and I probably will. I'd like to be able to give back something of value if people think it would be valuable whether or not the game succeeds or fails.

As much as I want my game to succeed in all the usual ways i.e. money, there are other "successes" that mean as much to me. Such as actually finishing and shipping something...Success! All the valuable technical skills I've learned along the way...Success! How to work with artists..huh.. painful Success! lol. My buddy is a professional artist and is part of the project but it's been a grind because we speak different languages. But now I know how to communicate my vision to and can work with artists...Success! You get my point. I see many successes but of course money would be awesome too.

Maybe I'll do a brain dump about all the trials and tribulations in the not too distant future.
 
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EdKirby

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Now that I'm here, progress on the app:

I ditched the landing page and worked on styling some of the screens. It's starting to look nice. I still have a lot to do though, and I've lost some time due to annoying heath problems and other stuff going on. I'm not finishing it by the end of the year, sadly. I don't want it to take longer than the end of January though. I'll do my best to hit that deadline.

It's not clear to me where your app is with regards to functionality. Assuming you still need to work on the functionality I would make that my priority. You can always pretty it up later. In fact, I would get it working with the minimum amount of functionality needed for release and get it released. You can make it more pretty and add additional functionality in updates, later.

I have a buddy that did an app for a cardiologist and that's what they did. Did it stop it from being useful and being a reasonable success? no. After they got it into the store they continued to add functionality and then they eventually they hired a company to redesign the UI.

Just some thoughts.
 

srodrigo

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I would agree with this except for one thing, Hypercasual games. The hypercasual genre is where an indie can start to bang something out in a few hours and have an MVP in a week and get it released and getting data. Then with that data it's possible to get a publishing deal with Voodoo or Ketchap etc. Not a slam dunk given all the competition but the turnaround time or process/feedback loop is much faster.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just mentioning it because this is where I'm moving towards after my game is released. As a side note, regardless if one of the many ideas I have for a hypercasual game hits, it's a great way to learn various skills fast. Something that I should have realized way before now.

That being said I'm also looking at getting back to my roots and dusting off the skills needed to build SaaSs and iOS apps. I mentioned in another thread that games are candy where as a SaaS or an app can potentially solve a painful problem and therefore have a better chance of making money. People are fickle and it's harder to determine what someone is going to like when it comes to games.

The problem I see with Hypercasual games is that people seem to shift quickly (I don't have data to back this though, just an impression). Other than that, I agree with you that this kind of games are the faster to make and provide the fastest feedback too.

Thought about doing this and I probably will. I'd like to be able to give back something of value if people think it would be valuable whether or not the game succeeds or fails.

As much as I want my game to succeed in all the usual ways i.e. money, there are other "successes" that mean as much to me. Such as actually finishing and shipping something...Success! All the valuable technical skills I've learned along the way...Success! How to work with artists..huh.. painful Success! lol. My buddy is a professional artist and is part of the project but it's been a grind because we speak different languages. But now I know how to communicate my vision to and can work with artists...Success! You get my point. I see many successes but of course money would be awesome too.

Maybe I'll do a brain dump about all the trials and tribulations in the not too distant future.

I see. I like your way of looking at this. Experience and learning is great regardless of the business success. If you combine this with games that take shorter to make, then you'll get to a point with higher chances of success sooner.

It's not clear to me where your app is with regards to functionality. Assuming you still need to work on the functionality I would make that my priority. You can always pretty it up later. In fact, I would get it working with the minimum amount of functionality needed for release and get it released. You can make it more pretty and add additional functionality in updates, later.

I have a buddy that did an app for a cardiologist and that's what they did. Did it stop it from being useful and being a reasonable success? no. After they got it into the store they continued to add functionality and then they eventually they hired a company to redesign the UI.

Just some thoughts.

I had the basic functionality working months ago. It's true that there's more to implement (specially for the paid version), but the original "design" was so atrocious and got mid way into standard and custom that I could never release it like that. Next time, I'll take advantage of Material Design and ship a standard app that looks okay, then redesign it if successful.
 

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I feel you my man.

I used to game dev for a few years because it allowed me to combine two of my passions, development & design/illustration. Went on to release a few apps (games and utility apps) for android, iOS and even Blackberry back then lol, none were wildly successful enough to quit my jobs. Then I contemplated creating those hyper casual games, as I had the same issues as yourself like the dev process taking too long, etc and came to the conclusion that:

1) I would be doing it for the money as I didn't even play those kind of games nor I cared for that hyper casual audience
2) It would be stressful to *have* to create new viral throwaway apps all the time in order to survive as a company

The way I see it is that we are passionate people and we enjoy doing multiple things to satisfy our creative brain. It's a real struggle for us to avoid our passions and that's very hard to understand for non creative people.

Thus it's very hard for us to stick to a normal boring non art related business idea for a long time (say 10 years like someone mentioned above). I personally cringe at the thought of setting up a marketing agency or web dev for random clients as I did that for years and hate having to personally deal with clients for my business as I've done it for years for my employers.

I would say that you need to ask yourself, what is important to you ?
1) Make money asap at all costs
2) Create something full-filling that you are proud of and have the opportunity to make money in the future if you stick to it

If you reply with #1 then I would suggest to focus on any non game/art business as there are faster ways to make money than game development and I'm afraid to say that includes app development, its very crowed and competitive the days. Finally allocate a couple hours a week for your hobby projects to avoid burnout with your main business/day job.

If you go this route the first suggestion is consulting as a developer.
Take on multiple clients and just keep your head low for a year or two until you have amassed some kind of money stash that will allow you to go and invest in other areas (real state, crypto, hiring people to build your ideas, etc).

If you reply with #2 then I would suggest,

1) Keep your day job
2) Out of all of your ideas, select one in which you really believe in, one that you see yourself working on for years if needed.
3) Since month one start blogging, twitting, YouTubing your progress. You don't need pretty images in order to post progress, just engage your audience with thoughts and ideas all the time. If you are passionate about your project your audience will know it.
4) Release demos on a monthly basis, even if no one downloads anything at first, even if it has ugly art, people will love that progress in the future.
5) If you really need the money consider Patreon after you have some kind of following going on
6) Understand that this is a long process, write it in a freaking wall and read it every day
7) Validate and correct along the way


#2 is risky but it can be very rewarding if you stick to it, there's many examples of this route. A very recent examples is a game called Boneworks.
BONEWORKS on Steam

It was made by a couple dudes in a period of roughly 2 years. During those years they engaged the audience and posted YouTube videos. I think last time I checked they were #1 on the steam VR category with about 200k-500k (rough estimation) copies sold in 3 days. Let's say they sold 200k so far, that's 6 million dollars in 3 days without the Steam cut for a passion based project which is not surprising as they took their time to create something valuable with the audience.

By the way I'm aware that this passion talk is VERY frowned upon in this forum but I think we should still be able discuss it in threads like these as I believe that there is a right way to work on these projects.
 
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srodrigo

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Hi @bdb , thanks a lot for posting.

I feel you my man.

I used to game dev for a few years because it allowed me to combine two of my passions, development & design/illustration. Went on to release a few apps (games and utility apps) for android, iOS and even Blackberry back then lol, none were wildly successful enough to quit my jobs. Then I contemplated creating those hyper casual games, as I had the same issues as yourself like the dev process taking too long, etc and came to the conclusion that:

1) I would be doing it for the money as I didn't even play those kind of games nor I cared for that hyper casual audience
2) It would be stressful to *have* to create new viral throwaway apps all the time in order to survive as a company

The way I see it is that we are passionate people and we enjoy doing multiple things to satisfy our creative brain. It's a real struggle for us to avoid our passions and that's very hard to understand for non creative people.

Thus it's very hard for us to stick to a normal boring non art related business idea for a long time (say 10 years like someone mentioned above). I personally cringe at the thought of setting up a marketing agency or web dev for random clients as I did that for years and hate having to personally deal with clients for my business as I've done it for years for my employers.

Glad to see that there's someone else who doesn't believe in hypercasual games. I can't get my head around them, as hard as I try. Also, you point out that they have a short lifespan (which I haven't measured but seems to be true due to the changes on the top games); then, create another one, which is pretty hard to nail. I'd rather spend 2 years making some game I believe in as a gamer than spending 6 months on some game that I wouldn't touch, because the result is obviously going to be worse.

I would say that you need to ask yourself, what is important to you ?
1) Make money asap at all costs
2) Create something full-filling that you are proud of and have the opportunity to make money in the future if you stick to it

If you reply with #1 then I would suggest to focus on any non game/art business as there are faster ways to make money than game development and I'm afraid to say that includes app development, its very crowed and competitive the days. Finally allocate a couple hours a week for your hobby projects to avoid burnout with your main business/day job.

If you go this route the first suggestion is consulting as a developer.
Take on multiple clients and just keep your head low for a year or two until you have amassed some kind of money stash that will allow you to go and invest in other areas (real state, crypto, hiring people to build your ideas, etc).

If you reply with #2 then I would suggest,

1) Keep your day job
2) Out of all of your ideas, select one in which you really believe in, one that you see yourself working on for years if needed.
3) Since month one start blogging, twitting, YouTubing your progress. You don't need pretty images in order to post progress, just engage your audience with thoughts and ideas all the time. If you are passionate about your project your audience will know it.
4) Release demos on a monthly basis, even if no one downloads anything at first, even if it has ugly art, people will love that progress in the future.
5) If you really need the money consider Patreon after you have some kind of following going on
6) Understand that this is a long process, write it in a freaking wall and read it every day
7) Validate and correct along the way

#2 is risky but it can be very rewarding if you stick to it, there's many examples of this route. A very recent examples is a game called Boneworks.
BONEWORKS on Steam

It was made by a couple dudes in a period of roughly 2 years. During those years they engaged the audience and posted YouTube videos. I think last time I checked they were #1 on the steam VR category with about 200k-500k (rough estimation) copies sold in 3 days. Let's say they sold 200k so far, that's 6 million dollars in 3 days without the Steam cut for a passion based project which is not surprising as they took their time to create something valuable with the audience.

Thanks for your advise here. I'm towards #1, because the pain of not earning my freedom in the next 5 years is going to be higher than the pain of not working on more appealing projects.

I'm currently consulting as a developer, but I work on side projects in the evenings. I don't really want to go the usual freelance route.

I allocated 1 hour/week for side/passion projects, but they'd take so long that would go nowhere, so I end up not doing it. I might get back to drawing or composing music for a couple of hours a week, at least I'll get something done quicker than starting some game.

I haven't invested money yet, but I'm thinking what to do with it. Real estate is not my best bet (my home country is Spain, and letting there is sh*t. London, where I'm currently based, is prohibitive). I've read a few threads here where people buy online businesses. If done well (here is the trick), the ROI is far higher than real estate. I might have a look at this, although I'm not sure where to start or how to evaluate businesses, which is why I want to run one on my own first before I try to run one that's alien to me.

I hope you are wrong with mobile apps :) I know it's crowded, but I've seen people succeeding, and at the moment mobile apps combine my skills and amount of time available well, so I'll carry on. We'll see if it goes well or if I fail miserably.

As much as I love #2 and how you break it down into reasonable steps, I'd freak out if I have to spend years on a project that doesn't free me up from bloody jobs/consulting. I really can't stand this for much longer, and has become my first priority.

By the way I'm aware that this passion talk is VERY frowned upon in this forum but I think we should still be able discuss it in threads like these as I believe that there is a right way to work on these projects.

Most people here are very business/results oriented. For creative folks with multiple interests, things work quite different. I just hope we can make it work too.

You might like a book called Refuse To Choose.
 

bdb

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Hi @bdb , thanks a lot for posting.



Glad to see that there's someone else who doesn't believe in hypercasual games. I can't get my head around them, as hard as I try. Also, you point out that they have a short lifespan (which I haven't measured but seems to be true due to the changes on the top games); then, create another one, which is pretty hard to nail. I'd rather spend 2 years making some game I believe in as a gamer than spending 6 months on some game that I wouldn't touch, because the result is obviously going to be worse.



Thanks for your advise here. I'm towards #1, because the pain of not earning my freedom in the next 5 years is going to be higher than the pain of not working on more appealing projects.

I'm currently consulting as a developer, but I work on side projects in the evenings. I don't really want to go the usual freelance route.

I allocated 1 hour/week for side/passion projects, but they'd take so long that would go nowhere, so I end up not doing it. I might get back to drawing or composing music for a couple of hours a week, at least I'll get something done quicker than starting some game.

I haven't invested money yet, but I'm thinking what to do with it. Real estate is not my best bet (my home country is Spain, and letting there is sh*t. London, where I'm currently based, is prohibitive). I've read a few threads here where people buy online businesses. If done well (here is the trick), the ROI is far higher than real estate. I might have a look at this, although I'm not sure where to start or how to evaluate businesses, which is why I want to run one on my own first before I try to run one that's alien to me.

I hope you are wrong with mobile apps :) I know it's crowded, but I've seen people succeeding, and at the moment mobile apps combine my skills and amount of time available well, so I'll carry on. We'll see if it goes well or if I fail miserably.

As much as I love #2 and how you break it down into reasonable steps, I'd freak out if I have to spend years on a project that doesn't free me up from bloody jobs/consulting. I really can't stand this for much longer, and has become my first priority.



Most people here are very business/results oriented. For creative folks with multiple interests, things work quite different. I just hope we can make it work too.

You might like a book called Refuse To Choose.

you are from Spain ? I worked in Madrid and Barcelona a few years ago then ended up moving to the US.

I think Spain is very good for a startup due to the low salaries, you can hire a team for 1/3 of what you would have to pay here.

How are the salaries in the UK like for a dev ?
 

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Glad to see that there's someone else who doesn't believe in hypercasual games.

Whether or not you guys believe in HC games means anything. The fact that people are playing them means there's a market, and for the developers who get the publishing deals with Voodoo et al. are making FU money and funding their sweetheart projects and studios.

Also, It doesn't take 6 months to make one either. One week to one month depending on your skills and the complexity of the game.

For the record, I'm not trying to change your minds but let's be realistic, you can make this a hobby and spend years making your magnum opus that may or (more than likely) not make jack because it was a "passion project" and you didn't listen to the market. Or you can treat it like a business and serve the playing public, or solve a problem (Apps) or what have you and actually make money. I believe in scratching your own itch but only where it has a business need.

I would say that you need to ask yourself, what is important to you ?
1) Make money asap at all costs
2) Create something full-filling that you are proud of and have the opportunity to make money in the future if you stick to it

This is very binary thinking. There are so many other options depending on who you are, what you're capable of etc. and some people have to make money. They have families, mortgages, healthcare etc etc. that can't wait for someday, maybe.

With regards to #2, there's no guarantee of success if you just stick to it. So why would I want to spend years of my life on a possibility? It's also not very Fastlane either.

I would suggest to focus on any non game/art business as there are faster ways to make money than game development and I'm afraid to say that includes app development, its very crowed and competitive the days.

I don't agree. I've been hearing that the gold rush is over, the app store is crowded etc. for years. Well, duh. The days of throwing something up into the app store and selling it with no work is long over. It's crowded but that means it's crowded for a reason. Actually several. People are making money but there's also a lot of crap up there. There's been a whole movement to treat it like the internet marketing of apps/games. Think the old Adsense sites. This has contributed to a whole bunch of crap games up there. My assertion is if you can make quality and out market them, which shouldn't be hard, you can rise above this crap.

So, it's time to start treating it like a business and marketing and selling and do all the things that an artist isn't going to be passionate about. That's the reality. I wouldn't steer away from it just because it's "crowded". Crap, everything is crowded. Wherever the barrier of entry is low you're going to get that.

Look, I was passionate about my game. That's long waned. Passion comes and goes and shouldn't be something you rely on to build a business or even complete a project. You need to commit regardless of passion.

I'm now passionate about (committed to) getting my game into the store, getting downloads, running a business that will hopefully fund other (passion?) projects. Looking for other opportunities in and out of gaming. Making movies with Unity, SaaSs, B&M, who knows but what I do know is you can't do any of that without money and passion doesn't guarantee money. Good planning and good execution gets you much further.

Sorry for the rant but I hear about passion all time online and from some close (artist) friends but most of these people are broke and it drives me crazy when they dig in their heels at the suggestion of learning the business side of things. I once heard "It'll destroy my creativity". Oh brother, then stay poor and stop whining about it. The other one is "I'm not a merchant" and doesn't want to learn. Ok. then stay broke. What do you want me to tell you.

#2 is risky but it can be very rewarding if you stick to it, there's many examples of this route. A very recent examples is a game called Boneworks.

These guys are a success for all the reasons you mentioned and one very important one that you didn't. They picked genres that are hot. Whether it was dumb luck or good judgement I don't know but VR Action shooters are very cool and people like to play them. Hell, I'd love to do one myself. I have all I need to do it with the exception of time.

I loved Arizona Sunshine! I may have to get Boneworks now too.
 
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srodrigo

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you are from Spain ? I worked in Madrid and Barcelona a few years ago then ended up moving to the US.

I think Spain is very good for a startup due to the low salaries, you can hire a team for 1/3 of what you would have to pay here.

How are the salaries in the UK like for a dev ?

I think Spain is one of the worst places to start a company, due to the ridiculous taxes. Salaries might be lower, but taxes kill you quickly.

Ironically, I'm not aware of the exact average salary for a dev in the UK. I'm more into the London bubble, where I wouldn't personally consider anything lower than £70k/year. As a consultant (contractor), £500-600/day is pretty common.
 

bdb

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I think Spain is one of the worst places to start a company, due to the ridiculous taxes. Salaries might be lower, but taxes kill you quickly.

Ironically, I'm not aware of the exact average salary for a dev in the UK. I'm more into the London bubble, where I wouldn't personally consider anything lower than £70k/year. As a consultant (contractor), £500-600/day is pretty common.

That might be true if you are a Spanish company, if you are from a richer country, basing your startup in Spain is not bad at all :hilarious:. When I was interviewing there I worked exclusively for foreign companies where they didn't even speak Spanish in their offices.

500 pounds a day doesn't sound bad at all. what do you specialize in as a dev ?
 

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Whether or not you guys believe in HC games means anything. The fact that people are playing them means there's a market, and for the developers who get the publishing deals with Voodoo et al. are making FU money and funding their sweetheart projects and studios.

You are right in that our opinion it doesn't mean anything. Are those deals actually that lucrative? 30% to Apple/Google, plus another good % to the publisher. But again, I don't have data, just intuition by observation. I'm sure a few make FU money, but it doesn't seem like it's easy at all and I would imagine even a good amount of the ones that get published by the big publishers don't make that much money.

Also, It doesn't take 6 months to make one either. One week to one month depending on your skills and the complexity of the game.

Most games I see people playing on the tube are very polished. I doubt that takes one month even full-time. Depending on the kind of game, I've seen experienced developers (Hang Line) taking over a year. I'm sure some games can be made in less, but I imagine it'd be hard to get published with a game made in a few weeks. Happy to be proven wrong though!

For the record, I'm not trying to change your minds but let's be realistic, you can make this a hobby and spend years making your magnum opus that may or (more than likely) not make jack because it was a "passion project" and you didn't listen to the market. Or you can treat it like a business and serve the playing public, or solve a problem (Apps) or what have you and actually make money. I believe in scratching your own itch but only where it has a business need.

That's what I'm avoiding, falling into my passion and ignoring the needs.
 
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That might be true if you are a Spanish company, if you are from a richer country, basing your startup in Spain is not bad at all :hilarious:. When I was interviewing there I worked exclusively for foreign companies where they didn't even speak Spanish in their offices.

500 pounds a day doesn't sound bad at all. what do you specialize in as a dev ?
That's a good point. You might as well try in the Philippines or Eastern Europe then.

I do JavaScript now.
 

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You are right in that our opinion it doesn't mean anything.
Geez, when I read that again it makes me sound like a d*ck. Sorry, not my intent.

So, I don't have hard numbers however, based on what I've seen (GDC talks, Unity talks, YouTube podcasts etc) and some extrapolation, the ones that get the deals do very well due to the reach that Voodoo and Ketchapp have. Voodoo alone tests 300 - 400 apps per MONTH! I find that amazing!
Most games I see people playing on the tube are very polished. I doubt that takes one month even full-time. Depending on the kind of game, I've seen experienced developers (Hang Line) taking over a year. I'm sure some games can be made in less, but I imagine it'd be hard to get published with a game made in a few weeks. Happy to be proven wrong though!

There's a whole process that's happened before you see those games. You have to have an mvp that you introduce to your prospective publisher. It's real basic and you should have tested the base game play with a soft launch in a smaller market so you can show retention and acquisition numbers to your prospective publishers. If they like it and the numbers then you go and finish it. But only real basic stuff. Just enough to get it into the store.

No doubt that some are more polished than others but it also depends on the size of the team and what they can get accomplished.

I know that it's been a bit of a long time but the creator of ColorSwitch made bank and he built it in a week. He used BuildBox not Unity but I think the same could be accomplished regardless of game dev platform. he was one guy and got it done in 7 days. Now, that being said, he built somethng like 100 games over his career before that so he had skills. They were very small games but they were games nonetheless.

My understanding is now to flesh them more over time after they've had some success to build longevity. But they have to start out very very basic.

That's what I'm avoiding, falling into my passion and ignoring the needs.

To be honest, I think it can be an AND and not an OR. I think you can be passionate about what you work on AND build a successful business but not at the expense of performing proper due diligence.

Here's the thing in my case, I built a couple of protoypes for a couple of small games. I got some really positive feedback on them. So, my plan is to flesh them out to MVPs and see where it leads me.

Now, these came from a list of game ideas where I put some serious thought into with regards to game play and genre etc. So I had an educated process that I used to come up with some ideas. Does that mean I can't be passionate about the ones that I'm going greenlight because I used a process to come up with the ideas? Hell no. I'm pretty jazzed about the feed back but if I didn't get good feedback I would have thrown them away. Nothing kills passion faster than working on something for a long time only to find out no one wants it. So do some homework, get feedback and run with it. that's all I'm trying to say.
 

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Geez, when I read that again it makes me sound like a d*ck. Sorry, not my intent.

No worries. I didn't think you sounded like a d*ick. And in any case you were right. Numbers matter, beliefs don't.

So, I don't have hard numbers however, based on what I've seen (GDC talks, Unity talks, YouTube podcasts etc) and some extrapolation, the ones that get the deals do very well due to the reach that Voodoo and Ketchapp have. Voodoo alone tests 300 - 400 apps per MONTH! I find that amazing!

300 apps sounds like a lot. The only thing is that there are probably 300 games or more released every day. So I'd say around 1/30 probability to get tested. Much lower to get published. You need a really good game to stand out.

There's a whole process that's happened before you see those games. You have to have an mvp that you introduce to your prospective publisher. It's real basic and you should have tested the base game play with a soft launch in a smaller market so you can show retention and acquisition numbers to your prospective publishers. If they like it and the numbers then you go and finish it. But only real basic stuff. Just enough to get it into the store.

That "just enough" is a tricky thing in games in my opinion. I haven't got the point yet. Graphics seem to be very important, and just that tends to take quite long. Content? Not sure, but I don't think a game with very few levels will get retention. I'll read more on the topic if I get back into it.

No doubt that some are more polished than others but it also depends on the size of the team and what they can get accomplished.

I know that it's been a bit of a long time but the creator of ColorSwitch made bank and he built it in a week. He used BuildBox not Unity but I think the same could be accomplished regardless of game dev platform. he was one guy and got it done in 7 days. Now, that being said, he built somethng like 100 games over his career before that so he had skills. They were very small games but they were games nonetheless.

My understanding is now to flesh them more over time after they've had some success to build longevity. But they have to start out very very basic.

I haven't even played ColorSwitch, neither most of the other ones that made money. And this is the problem when making this games. It's easier to make a mobile app that solves a need, even if you don't like or use mobile apps, than to make a game that is good if you don't play. Again, I need more research on how to start small and build up, real case studies out there (initial graphics, levels, etc., and how the games evolved).

To be honest, I think it can be an AND and not an OR. I think you can be passionate about what you work on AND build a successful business but not at the expense of performing proper due diligence.

Here's the thing in my case, I built a couple of protoypes for a couple of small games. I got some really positive feedback on them. So, my plan is to flesh them out to MVPs and see where it leads me.

Now, these came from a list of game ideas where I put some serious thought into with regards to game play and genre etc. So I had an educated process that I used to come up with some ideas. Does that mean I can't be passionate about the ones that I'm going greenlight because I used a process to come up with the ideas? Hell no. I'm pretty jazzed about the feed back but if I didn't get good feedback I would have thrown them away. Nothing kills passion faster than working on something for a long time only to find out no one wants it. So do some homework, get feedback and run with it. that's all I'm trying to say.
I fully agree that failure kills passion quickly. Love What You Do has better odds.

I've tried the educated process approach. Analysed the top mobile games in different genres. I must have done it wrong, because it didn't work for me at all. Either I couldn't come up with too many improvements to be made, or were games I wouldn't bother playing at all. I tried to make one puzzle game based on the most basic gameplay of some 500K-1M+ existing games, but a bit different (and even though I spent 2 months on it) and didn't get organic downloads.

Last time I got excited about making an HC game, I spent a few hours prototyping it and I was like "why would someone play this BS?", then ditched it. I find it hard to evaluate what makes a good HC game because I'm not a HC gamer.

EDIT: Grammar
 
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