Should I dumb down my content for people like @vigilante and @imgal?

[Vigilante]

If you understood the meaning of dumbing down, you would never put that into a headline referencing someone who knows your history. You're no William Shakespeare.

For you to insinuate that your prose needs to be simplified to make it relateable to the masses (or me specifically) indicates the lack of depth you pay to your own reflection in the mirror. The first thing MJ told me to do when he reviewed the manuscript of how I built my business was eliminate 50% of the unnecessary words. You could apply that same discipline with a 90% filter. Then, with the remaining 10% make sure it emanated from a place of experience vs. hypothesis and you might gain a readership.

And for the record, I would read every word @Imgal posts here as she doesn't post verbal diarrhea just to try and present an image that was anything different than her reality. Happy to be in her company.

Go pick an intellectual battle with someone that might care to meet you at your level, like Danielle Bregoli. While your click bait headline will likely garner you several thread views, it comes at the cost to you of someone who at one point would have taken your phone call.

 

[Imgal]

Sorry ... too long didn't read.

 

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[jon.a]

Why does making your writing shorter and more concise dumb it down?
Write enough, well enough, that the reader clicks through to read your novel.

 

[Fox]

Reminds me of your other thread that tarnished Sinister Lex's name to get more clicks.

Good content on this forum always rises to the top. It doesn't need clickbait titles or needlessly attacking Senior members to gain views.

Having read into and listened to Vigilantes backstory it sucks to see his name being used in this way.
Also to use a popcorn gif after everyone takes the time to help guide you is extremely distasteful.

 

[biophase]

Andrew,

I think the fact that people say your posts are too long should tell you something about your writing.

It is obviously not compelling enough for people to finish it. I have read super long articles to the end on other websites. I never felt they were too long so what is the true issue here?

It's not the length of your posts, it is the content. Something about them is not making people complete them. They read the beginning and then flounder in the middle. This tells me that your content either gets boring or repetitive somewhere in the middle.

It does not mean that your content is too hard to read. People don't stop reading because they are confused. And if they do, it means you are not doing a good job of communicating. I think you need to look at your own writing style. If enough people tell you it's too long, then it is too long!

Instead of blaming others for not understanding your content and calling them stupid, you need to see what you are doing wrong.

 

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[AgainstAllOdds]

Your posts have an obvious need for stroking your pseudo-intellect. You have an obvious guru complex and need for approval.

That's why members like @Imgal and @Vigilante are turned off by your posts. It's not just the writing. It's that you're writing with the goal of tricking people.

You've obviously studied copywriting and know that human psychology will assume that long posts are more valid in opinion than short posts. That's why you're making the long posts. Not to provide more value, but to validate yourself.

And that's why when people like Vigilante do read through your posts closely, they spot the bullshit instantly.

Even this thread. What were you trying to convey with the creation of this thread? What were you thinking when you wrote the thread title, and your original post?

Why did you go back three weeks to pull a post from @Vigilante and @Imgal to make this thread? Has this really been bothering you for three weeks? Or were you just trying to get more forum attention while attempting to establish yourself over @Vigilante?

If you understood the meaning of dumbing down, you would never put that into a headline referencing someone who knows your history. You're no William Shakespeare.

For you to insinuate that your prose needs to be simplified to make it relateable to the masses (or me specifically) indicates the lack of depth you pay to your own reflection in the mirror. The first thing MJ told me to do when he reviewed the manuscript of how I built my business was eliminate 50% of the unnecessary words. You could apply that same discipline with a 90% filter. Then, with the remaining 10% make sure it emanated from a place of experience vs. hypothesis and you might gain a readership.

And for the record, I would read every word @Imgal posts here as she doesn't post verbal diarrhea just to try and present an image that was anything different than her reality. Happy to be in her company.

Go pick an intellectual battle with someone that might care to meet you at your level, like Danielle Bregoli. While your click bait headline will likely garner you several thread views, it comes at the cost to you of someone who at one point would have taken your phone call.

@Vigilante sums this thread up perfectly.

 

[JAJT]

Honestly - I also don't read your posts. I find them monotonous at best.

You drone on and have no condensation to your writing style. It reads like you are being paid to write by the letter. In my opinion.

It's funny you mention Forever Jobless as an example to model yourself after because I was just going to say Billy is the perfect example of someone who writes very long posts PROPERLY. As in - he writes exactly as much as is needed to convey his ideas, and no more. It happens to take a long time to convey some of his ideas and stories but at no point do they drone on. The value flows. The stories are interesting. The ideas compound without being repetitive.

There's nothing wrong with long as long as you aren't repetitive and boring. Which people are telling you that you are. The length isn't the issue with your writing - it's the content.

Also, for what it's worth, I think calling out forum members and saying you need to 'dumb it down' for them is extremely uncouth.

 

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[Vigilante]

My recommendation--- is to extend him grace for those not directly in the line of fire.

I did a radio show once where I was asked to respond to a PR crisis.

The best way to do that is to take it head on... swiftly, completely, and directly. Own it, fix it and roll on past it.

Maybe the worst thing you could do would be to make light of it.

Andrew is a young guy, finding his way and working out a few disconnects between his public persona and his history. He's a fighter and he'll get there eventually.

I would encourage you all to extend him some grace, let this die, and hopefully take away from this for yourselves how you might do things differently both personally and professionally.

We've all said stupid shit before. I am the master of saying stupid shit. I've had to learn by fire how to fix the mistakes I have made along the way.

Give him some grace, and this topic will die down as the next hot thread pops up.

- Dave

 

[MidwestLandlord]

The amount of patience that @Vigilante and @Imgal displayed in this thread is unbelievable. I mean, they come here and volunteer their time and share their experiences for us to learn from, and then get called out in a thread title that implies they lack intelligence?

Especially with @Vigilante (no offense @Imgal ), I am nothing but grateful for the knowledge he shares here (even if I don't always agree with him)

Anyway,

This thread is a perfect example of why I skip most of your stuff @AndrewNC . I usually only read your stuff if a heavy hitter like @jon.a , @MJ DeMarco , or @Vigilante commented.

Is your writing too long? Sure.

But the real issue, in my opinion, is that your writing style isn't congruent with what you're writing about. An inflammatory, argumentative, arrogant, and provocative writing style doesn't really fit with NLP and self-help...ya know?

If I'm going to study NLP and use it to become my best self, why would I learn that from someone displaying the same attitudes and beliefs I'm trying to overcome?

Confidence in your product implies value, arrogance implies lack of value or over-compensation, so I automatically discount the value of your words based off that arrogance, even though the subject matter interests me.

I wouldn't expect you to be perfect for sure. But I would expect awareness of your faults, and as mentioned above by MJ, being authentic with those faults. A bit of legit vulnerability goes a long way...

Harsh stuff in this thread, hope it helps you. You've got tremendous knowledge in what I think is valuable information for people, you just need to learn to sell it (and yourself).

(this comment took me 41 minutes to write and was edited what felt like 387 times before posting)

 

[MJ DeMarco]

@AndrewNC

First let me say, I respect your effort at improving and growing as both a person and a writer.

However for me, your writing sometimes comes across as too calculated, and not authentic.

Just to give you an example, your chosen thread title "Should I dumb-down my content for Vigilante and Imgal" is a poor title.

I feels CALCULATED and CLICK-BAITY, not authentic. As such, it distracts from your message.

Is that thread title any different than this?

Should I idiot-proof my writing for AndrewNC?

In effect, both titles are insulting and presume idiocy.

In the end, you thought it was more effective insulting two respected forum members over risking less clicks.

 

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[IceCreamKid]

Andrew, stop. Just stop.

Or if you do want to post further then how about a genuine, "My fault, I apologize. I'm human and I made a mistake like any other human does". Saying stuff like, "I'm sorry you feel that way" just makes things worse.

We all have said some crazy stupid shit in our lives. At least I know I have.

You're not going to suddenly be seen as a lesser person for making some mistake. If anything, it makes you seem more authentic.

This forum is a community and we're all in this together so please stop stirring things up man. Tearing down SinisterLex, Vig, Imgal...come on man. Life is too short for this. Let's go make some positive changes to help our fellow man/woman.

 

[Imgal]

Here's my take on things. I think that there is real value in your long form content. You are a very intelligent guy who knows your stuff and are passionate about sharing it and helping improve lives.

I also don't think you need to change your style. I do think it's worth testing adapting it and testing.

Think Starbucks. When they put out a new coffee they don't go round offering full mugs of the stuff. They offer tiny little samples. It's something that people can digest quickly and decide if it's for them or not. If they stood there and made people have to digest the whole mug then a lot of people would probably get turned off the coffee and miss out on the Unicornfrappodappocino.

Also, my life is now complete. I made it to a title alongside the amazing @Vigilante

 

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[Vigilante]

@Imgal got included merely for guilt by association. Come to find out, she simply speaks what many others in the shadows think also.

As is usually the case around here, a thread that should have been landfill material ends up with gold follow-up posts that are relevant well beyond the OP.

Thanks all.

 

[JAJT]

But dude, she used three words.

I had no idea who this is or what she did so I googled it and found it out.

Basically she's an idiot who said "catch me outside" as a threat to the audience on Dr. Phil in a dumb accent and has ridden her angsty attitude to fame and now charges talking fees to show up places. Was in a rap video. Etc... On pace to be worth a million as mentioned, supposedly.

Basically she's famous for being a brat.

I didn't want to write any of this but I didn't want anyone else to waste the time figuring it out either.

 

[Vigilante]

This is a classic example of a common error we all commit regarding the written word. It's just 7% of communication, (@AndrewNC knows this), and I really think that he wasn't really being offensive. It's subtle, but with all things online, you gotta be razor-sharp or else be so easily misconstrued.

When given opportunity for clarification, he took none.

 

[Runum]

Several thoughts that are not synthesized together.

Nothing is free. Your posts require trust and time commitment from the reader. Time and trust are currency.

The forum has gotten so big that readers could spend enormous amounts of time stagnantly reading. Your posts are in a pool of hundreds of other posts. What makes yours stand out?

We are all dynamic creatures, constantly changing, different stages in life. The people complaining about the length of your posts are at the doer stage and time is expensive.

You are never going to be all things to all people. Need to figure out the target for each submission and decide on the need vs willingness to commit from the readers. Need to establish trust that you won't waste a readers time with extra, useless flavor.

Once you waste a readers time it is even more difficult to regain that trust for a second chance.

Good luck.

 

[Raoul Duke]

therefore

On a serious note. I have enjoyed (in no particular order) posts from these people - @SinisterLex, @Andy Black, @lowtek, @RHL, @Vigilante, @AgainstAllOdds, @theag, @biophase, @snowbank, @GlobalWealth, @MidwestLandlord & @MJ DeMarco.

 

[Argue]

We need more brevity.

 

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[Andy Black]

There's a famous quote attributed to Blaise Pascal: I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time.

This is always top of mind when I write.

I like the writing style of @Vigilante, @jon.a, and @theag in particular for their ability to convey so much in so few words.

 

[Jon L]

There's something about writing that immediately gets to the point. It respects the reader's time and let's them know if the writer is worth listening to. I can usually tell within the first few sentences of a post:

1. Whether the writer has the kind of experience necessary to write authoritatively on the subject.
   
2. Whether I will learn something and/or be entertained by the post.

MJ mentioned authenticity. That's his way of saying what I'm saying with my first point. Usually, the only way to figure out what works in a given business situation is by trial and error. For me, that has meant a LOT of error, followed by some learning, followed by some expertise for that particular situation. Do that in enough kinds of situations, and you become 'experienced.' This kind of experience oozes from the pores of people that have been trained by it. Its immediately obvious in the way someone writes. What's interesting about this is that two different writers can talk about the same topic and say the same basic thing. The one with experience will be the one I listen to.

I haven't really read much of your writing, Andrew, because your writing doesn't pass those two tests of mine. Here's the thing: this thread is EXACTLY the kind of thing that turns a person into someone that oozes experience from their pores. The pain you've experienced here teaches you things you wouldn't otherwise learn. Keep going, and you can turn yourself into a writer with a very large following.

(This post took me 30 minutes to write, by the way.)

 

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[Vigilante]

No apology needed or requested. I literally don't care.

 

[Ravens_Shadow]

Yes, your posts are too long.

No, I don't ever finish them because I don't have the time to. Especially when they seem like rambling.

If you wrote more concisely and got as close to the point as possible, i'm sure you'd have some great nuggets and knowledge for me to pan out. However, I don't have time to pan the entire length of the amazon river.

 

[Runum]

Also, I learned many years ago that posting on forum requires a different writing style than writing a book.

Simple, concise lines of information play well online but don't make for a meaty book.

Paragraphs in book form don't read well online.

 

[biophase]

Thanks for the constructive feedback, all who replied.

While looking up the suggestion to look into Ryan Holiday, ForeverJobless came to mind as someone who talks about writing long, in depth posts and is someone to model after (not copy...but model).

(text left out cuz i'm not sure if he wants it posted here)

View attachment 15409

Linking to a long article: https://foreverjobless.com/how-to-achieve-goals/

Already implementing this in my emails.

Andrew, I don't think this solves your problem. By writing a short post and linking to your long post, it does not solve your problem. Whether the content is on the forum or on your website, it is the same content with a writing style that people think is too long.

BTW, did you know that it takes Bill 40-60 hours to write one post? How long does it take you? Do you work on your content for a week? That's why he posts once every month or two. People don't think the post is very long because they feel that every paragraph conveys value. His initial draft is probably 2-3x as long as his final post. Do you ever go back and eliminate paragraphs and sentences? I do that all the time, even in my facebook posts that are 1-2 sentences long.

 

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[Vigilante]

Ha! No offense taken. @Vigilante is much older than me...

 

[eliquid]

The correct answer to the original post is this, in this order:

1. Figure out YOUR goals.
2. Figure out YOUR audience.
3. Write to YOUR audience.
4. Split test your content ( length, tone, etc ).
5. The test that positively impacts towards YOUR goals, is the correct one to use.

Anything else, is time wasting and BS

 

[ZCP]

@AndrewNC I personally do not think I have ever made it to the end of one of your posts. Your content is great (of the parts I read). I just catch myself saying 'I'll come back to this, I have too much going on right now'. Give me a morsel and make me want to buy a book from you with the rest or subscribe to your video series. That is my 2 cents.

In answer to your question, are you making the money and completing the goals you want at the number of followers you want or do you need to 'expand the audience'.

Good preachers don't dump it all on you at once. They give you a single point for the day and excite you enough to come back.....

 

[jon.a]

Jon has forgotten more than I have ever known. Fortunate that he takes my calls.

What?

 

[biophase]

Interesting how some friendly banter stirred up so many emotions.

Waiting around to see what else has come out of the woodwork before I reply to some of this...
View attachment 15440

Not good. Probably would have been better to not even post this. What was the point? Are you waiting for the fire to get bigger before you douse it or pour kerosene on it?

 

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[Imgal]

And for the record, I would read every word @Imgal posts here as she doesn't post verbal diarrhea just to try and present an image that was anything different than her reality. Happy to be in her company.

That means a huge amount @Vigilante. Thank you! Thinking I should go and rewrite my 50000 word upcoming post now though