Lex DeVille's: Guru Cults Exposed: The Tactics "Experts" Use To Pull You In & Suck You Dry

[Lex DeVille]

Interesting how a webinar appears in each of those three funnels @SinisterLex.

I personally wouldn’t sit through one of those evergreen automated webinars that just happen to be starting in 20 minutes and will have the pause and fast forward controls disabled and start by wasting my time by saying how they won’t waste my time and show they’re a guru by saying how they’re not a guru and ...

Interested in why webinars appear in these so often.

I think I know why these funnels often start with ads on Facebook.

I’m sure you’ll gradually reveal this to us.

This is pretty much how webinars go. I can't wait to get into that topic after the landing pages. The marketers tell the Tier 2 gurus to do the webinar live until they create one that resonates with their audience. Then automate it and make it look live.

Most of the Tier 2 gurus follow this, but the Tier 3 gurus don't because they're afraid of being exposed if they go live. Instead, they just record a webinar and try to automate it without much testing. It ends up being a huge flop most of the time. But webinars that were tested and proven...those webinars work, and even when they're automated they get people to buy.

The reason gurus use Facebook is because it works.

I think that’s why webinars are used - they separate people who don’t value their time from people who do value their time.

As per that other thread I linked to previously, I think the funnel is designed to get their mark to separate themselves from those who are streetsmart enough to bail immediately.

Get through their one hour webinar and you’re not only invested enough, but gullible enough.

I wouldn't say it's about the people who click not valuing their time, though. I also wouldn't say it's about separating the streetsmart from the gullible. Facebook simply gets you in front of people with really specific targeting. Google can work for this purpose too as long as the marketing communications are on point, but that's not what the Tier 1 gurus preach.

When you look at how cults recruit, they don't look for the gullible. They don't go after the mentally challenged. They target streetsmart, educated individuals because those people believe they won't be duped into a cult.

That actually makes them among the easiest to recruit and most likely to fall victim to a cult!

Funny thing is, once indoctrinated, those same individuals become the most valuable, dedicated cult contributors, especially once they've identified with the cult membership and group think takes over.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

The beautiful thing is that this gigantic thread is a masterclass in persuasion, marketing, and copy -- and it is ENTIRELY FREE.

Yet unfortunately, RIGHT NOW, there is a lurking BRO-MARKETER out there who is dissecting it so he can re-package it, call it his own, and then sell it into his $9997 master class, once again, perpetuating the "Pay me thousands so I can teach you how to have other people pay you thousands" scam.

 

[Lex DeVille]

How did you end up working with "gurus"?

How do you negotiate the terms with them as far as money etc.?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I started through Upwork. I applied some of the techniques to grow my freelance account fast. At the end of the first month my rates went from $5/hr to $100/hr. That's when I met the first guru -- a coach who was willing to pay those rates.

After that I searched for other coach jobs (clearly they had money) and found a second one who's job post was lost under a month's worth of other posts. He hadn't hired any freelancers, so I reached out and offered my services at double his budget. He accepted.

Now I had all the social proof and credibility needed to land pretty much any other coach. Anytime I applied to a coach gig, I'd tell a story about one of the other coaches and relate it to their job post. Or I'd just write something like:

"You're a coach who needs copywriting, and I'm a copywriter who writes for coaches, so maybe we're a match?"

Pretty much works the same as doubling your freelance rates with every new 5-star rating. Each one builds upon the last adding more and more proof. More proof = more credible.

For pricing I wasn't very experienced at the time.

At first I billed by the hour. The problem was, there were only so many hours in a day. That limited my income. So I switched and started billing retainers between $1000 and $3000 per month depending on the amount of writing.

That model worked well, but I screwed up the amount of writing offered. I ended up with several retainer clients who sucked, so I fired them so I could focus on the one with the most potential. I closed her on a $1,000 retainer originally, and upgraded to $2,000 per month after the first month.

But she had MASSIVE content needs, and drained me with delivery. As her business grew, we started doing weekly team calls. I was brought in to engage her Facebook audience, and take a more active role. It was then she gave me access to the Tier I gurus and their training in addition to her programs.

That's when my eyes were really opened to the rabbit hole...

After that I became more and more involved in her system. I was promoted as her "Copywriting Coach." Started coaching her students, reviewing webinars, profiling potential customers, and reviewing copy for other high-ticket clients like the founder of ZenDesk. I worked with $1,000,000 funnel marketers to craft her email funnels, and engaged with coaches at all levels every day all day long.

During all of this I didn't ask for any extra pay.

I was waiting for the right time. The moment when she depended on me too much not to see my value. Then I thought we could move to a commission model. She paid her salespeople 10%, and I had way more client contact than they did. Even just a 5% commission would've been around $50k per year.

When she posted my picture and info on her sales page, and access to my copywriting training became a "Bonus" for spending $15,000+ on her program......that's when the time was right to talk commissions. When you start selling access to me...that means my value is high enough for a cut.

So I waited for the New Year and asked for 20%.

Her response was to offer a pay increase. I offered a concession of a lower %. Unfortunately, she didn't feel a copywriter should be paid a commission because I wasn't on the phone making sales. It's funny because her sales people weren't promoted on the sales page at all.

Anyway...

After several rounds of back and forth negotiations, I attempted an old school tactic. Told her if she wasn't on board with paying me a commission then she didn't see my value and she could keep her money. I'd walk...

She didn't budge, and I refunded $6,000 to prove I was serious, thinking she'd be f*cked without a good copywriter putting out the amount of content I was.

Unfortunately, that didn't go according to plan.

She blocked me, and removed me from her circles, but by then it was too late. I'd seen enough, grown a large enough network, and worked with enough coaches and gurus to always get work with others (although I do think I'm blacklisted in some circles who know her).

But to answer your question about negotiating price...

I don't have a set way. I try different things. Sometimes it's $3,000 email funnel. Sometimes it's $300 per page. Sometimes it's something else. I haven't bothered with or wanted a commission structure since. Not planning to freelance after this year.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

You are right, there's absolutely NEVER a reason to watch through an entire webinar. In some cases, the sellers will give you material / sheets which they used during the webinar. Sometime you might want to download them. If you are absolutely new to a field, which is being upsold from the webinar, the whole webinar may be somewhat useful.

There's no doubt this marketing stuff works though. But the question is Should you do it?

If you want to start an online business yourself, you really have to ask yourself, what is your motivation? Do you want to do this ONLY because a $500 course x 20 paid subscribers per month = $10,000 / month. Is this ALL what you care about? If yes, well Go ahead and do it. But this reason ONLY may not work for everyone.

One person put this to me in a way which has stuck with me. If you want to start an online Business, consider your ideal customer. Consider his situation, his profile, his life, say it's Position A. Now consider the ideal/perfect state the customer wants to be in the field you want to teach. His life, his profile, his situation. Call that Position B.

Now ask yourself, can my course move the guy from Position A -> Position B?
Can I teach him with absolute integrity the methods, actions and tools to move from A to B?

If you answer Yes to both the above, you should ABSOLUTELY create the course. If not, if it's just maybe a little or maybe not, then you are really in it for ONLY yourself and will be FAKING.

Of course I am not saying there's anything wrong with having Money or your own benefit as your motivator. I am saying it shouldn't be at the expense of your customer's benefit.

I wouldn't say there's never a reason to watch webinars. I don't like to close off avenues, and thinking in absolutes hasn't served me well. This isn't to say I disagree with you, though. I've watched webinars where I got useful information, but there's more to guru funnels than webinars anyway.

Many of the people who enroll in guru training do want to help people. Not all of them. Guru advertising targets multiple parts of their desires. They target the emotional side by offering a way to help them scale whatever kind of coaching or courses they currently teach, and also offer to make it more lucrative by showing them how to go from a $150 course to a $15000 course simply by changing a few things.

One common theme I've noticed about the top gurus is they constantly say, "create value" "it's about helping people" and other statements like that. Jordan Belfort's straight line persuasion is a good example. In his course he constantly stresses how important it is to use his techniques in an honest way to help people...he says it, but does he actually think it, and more importantly, does he practice it how he preaches??

 

[Fox]

Whoever is asking questions is in control.

By avoiding wanting to be the one talking and being able to shut up and listen your sales go through the roof.

Of course this can be abused (as this thread shows) but this is a massive skill set when it comes to selling.

Amazing thread Lex. I feel like you having a kid has already made you wiser and more in tune with yourself and your own core beliefs. This is great material.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

This is incredible stuff, where did you learn all of this Lex? Is there any books you can direct me to? Websites?
I have always considered myself to be a decent writer and thought about copywriting..
Never realized how powerful copywriting can be....

Ca$hvertising (the book) is still the best place learn the basics of copywriting.

 

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[Andy Black]

You are right, there's absolutely NEVER a reason to watch through an entire webinar. In some cases, the sellers will give you material / sheets which they used during the webinar. Sometime you might want to download them. If you are absolutely new to a field, which is being upsold from the webinar, the whole webinar may be somewhat useful.

There's no doubt this marketing stuff works though. But the question is Should you do it?

If you want to start an online business yourself, you really have to ask yourself, what is your motivation? Do you want to do this ONLY because a $500 course x 20 paid subscribers per month = $10,000 / month. Is this ALL what you care about? If yes, well Go ahead and do it. But this reason ONLY may not work for everyone.

One person put this to me in a way which has stuck with me. If you want to start an online Business, consider your ideal customer. Consider his situation, his profile, his life, say it's Position A. Now consider the ideal/perfect state the customer wants to be in the field you want to teach. His life, his profile, his situation. Call that Position B.

Now ask yourself, can my course move the guy from Position A -> Position B?
Can I teach him with absolute integrity the methods, actions and tools to move from A to B?

If you answer Yes to both the above, you should ABSOLUTELY create the course. If not, if it's just maybe a little or maybe not, then you are really in it for ONLY yourself and will be FAKING.

Of course I am not saying there's anything wrong with having Money or your own benefit as your motivator. I am saying it shouldn't be at the expense of your customer's benefit.

Nice litmus test. Rep+

The only reason I continue to dip my toe into these waters is because I believe I’m doing folks a disservice by not helping them more.

I won’t do a webinar though. Maybe not even an opt-in and all that auto responder stuff.

I like something Jerry Banfield said in one of his videos about closed business systems versus open business systems. He pumps out free videos on YouTube every single day. They add value. They’re free without an opt-in required.

If you like his content then you can subscribe to his YouTube channel , Facebook page etc.

In the description of the video will be a link to his courses. If you liked the free one then you can buy the paid one.

I don’t know whether he even has email lists and autoresponder series.

I’m tired of all the marketing automation where I get stupid long emails with stories in them that are designed to sell a click at the end and lead me further into their funnels.

I unsubscribe when the subject line is click-baity.

I unsubscribe even when the subject line is in Proper Case - my friends don’t email me in Proper Case.

I unsubscribe whenever I see a formula being followed.


This open business model appeals to me.

@Fox and @SinisterLex are doing it.

They create plenty of free YouTube videos, threads in TFLF, and provide value without us needing to join their automation funnels first.

They’re active in TFLF and in their own communities. They aren’t over automating their personal interactions so they can sit on the beach.

They are building assets that showcase the value they can add if you paid them.

It works because they are *showing* us they’re human beings who care - not *telling* us with their carefully crafted stories.

 

[Andy Black]

What Lex is showing is why I don’t like “online marketing”, even though you could argue that’s what I do.


I’m happy doing nice simple paid search ads.

1. Search: “plumber dublin”.
2. Ad: “Dublin Plumber”.
3. Landing Page: “We’re plumbers. We’re in Dublin. Call Now”.

Similar to @Fox, I can’t quite work out how to help folks online without using all this guru-sh*t.

I won’t be reading Russell Brunson’s stuff, because he has “Secrets” in his book titles, and he is a genius online marketer who knows about “the hero’s journey” and how to create “the perfect webinar”. He even talks about how to create a cult-ure.

I actually have one of Russell’s books but it sits on my shelf unopened.

I like Russell’s stuff. I like Gary V’s stuff. But I stopped consuming their stuff a while back.


This is a case of I’d rather be right than rich.

Call me stubborn, but I’ll work out how to do this my own way.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

It worked quite well, but I stopped selling it.

I didn't feel good about it.

This is a big part of why I stopped running my programs and courses (except the low price ones on Udemy). I never built a full blown webinar funnel for myself. Just couldn't bring myself to do it. But I've used funnels in a similar fashion through other means. Most of my funnel systems come from places where people already get value. For instance, YouTube, and a paid ad on this forum.

Even with providing value first, I still don't like the sales methods for those high priced programs. It's hard to gauge how much value is enough to justify it, even when you "charge your worth."

One thing I like about studying how modern funnel systems work (even though this is a guru thread and not a funnel thread) is you can start to see their fail points. Those fail points become opportunity points in the future. So I like to look at how markets are being failed right now. That way I can figure out how to serve them better later on.

 

[luniac]

This is what would happen to me if i fell for the webinar.

THEM - Great! So, to change your life, and get your business back on track, and to make sure your family is fed, clothed, and can start living a better life, and to put you on track toward your first 6 or 7-figures...... it's just $10,000. Will that be Visa or Mastercard?

ME - Oh, uh, I didn't expect it to be so much.

THEM - *Silence*

ME - I don't think I can come up with that.

THEM - What do you think stops you right now?

ME - It's just a lot of money and I'm not making very much

THEM - That's exactly why you need our help, luniac.

ME - Yeah, but I just think I want to try it on my own first.

THEM - I understand luniac, but where has that gotten you so far?

ME - Good point...well, I need to talk to my family first.

THEM - I understand luniac, but does your family make these decisions for you?

ME- No...but I just don't know how I can pay.

THEM - A lot of our customers put their payment on credit. Which major credit cards do you use?

ME- I don't have a credit card.

THEM - That's allright, with good credit you'll be easily preapproved for a credit card, give me your credit score and i'll personally recommend you a solid credit card provider.

ME - I don't have credit or a credit score.

THEM - Silence

ME - Silence

THEM - Do have any friends, family who are able to assist you with this?

ME - No they're all broke as fuk like me

THEM - Silence

ME - Silence

THEM - k bye...

 

[Andy Black]

Interesting how a webinar appears in each of those three funnels @SinisterLex.

A friend of mine has an email rule to delete any email that contains the word webinar.

I personally wouldn’t sit through one of those evergreen automated webinars that just happen to be starting in 20 minutes and will have the pause and fast forward controls disabled and start by wasting my time by saying how they won’t waste my time and show they’re a guru by saying how they’re not a guru and ...

Interested in why webinars appear in these so often.

I think I know why these funnels often start with ads on Facebook.

I’m sure you’ll gradually reveal this to us.

 

[John Clancy]

So for everyone that has read this thread in its entirety...

Are these tactics happening right before our eyes?

Read this thread and let us know what you think:

1,000,000 Followers On Social Media: How I Am Doing It & How You Can Too

Well, while I don't have the same deep knowledge of these concepts as @SinisterLex and many others...

I've felt for a while now that Damian is fake.

I remember first seeing him when he was featured on Victor Pride's blog. He had developed a system for earning a full-time income with part-time effort on Fiverr ( I think the article was called "how I made $11032 in 3 hours a week" or something like that).. And it was only $15!!!!

I was lost at the time, struggling to find my way... And here was a guy my age, making money I could hardly dream of.
Predictably, I bought it.

And to be honest - it was cheap, and the information seemed to be good (I never applied it, I can't confirm)... So there's no issue so far.

Then I remember his email list going dead for 8 months... And when he came back, he had rebranded himself as a $3000/hr consultant, millionaire entrepreneur, etc. A big step up from his previous position, one that's definitely more lucrative.

A quick look at any of his social media accounts (e.g. Twitter) will confirm your suspicions. His tweets are all crafted to maintain the illusion he's trying to project. Retweets other guys with big followings (like Tai Lopez, Wall Street Playboys), posts pictures of himself with other internet famous entrepreneurs for credibility (Grant Cardone, "Hurricane Liz" I think?), talks about being a "millionaire dropout", posts stuff about cultivating your "alpha male" mindset, living a rich lifestyle... you get the picture.

Is he really wealthy?

Probably - maybe not as much as he claims, but I imagine he's doing just fine.

Is he a legit guy, who built himself via honest hard work and real value-adding businesses?

I don't know.

Personally, I'm a bit wary of all this posturing, particularly when they're catering to younger audiences ("I was a millionaire at 20, and you can be too!").

Taking advantage of naive teenagers isn't exactly high on my list of ethical business practices.

Maybe some else has a completely different opinion... But that's just my take.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Well, they usually don't put a sign up that reads "Welcome to the cult"

Many people who wind up part of a cult believe they'd be the last person to wind up in a cult.

In fact, you're in a type of cult right now. It isn't a dangerous cult, but you can certainly see the parallels. You purchased a book and read it alone. Just you and the author and his words. You were awakened to a hidden truth and then you were given a chance to explore deeper.

You took that chance and made your way into the community -- a community of like minded individuals with deep conviction about right and wrong in regards to how to be successful. Victim mindset is bad. Fastlane mindset is good. etc.

Going a step further, you have the chance to open yourself up and put yourself out there. You can post progress threads. You're encouraged to share your wins and failures. In doing so, you become more deeply ingrained in the community. Eventually maybe you become an INSIDERS and deepen your commitment further.

As long as you conform and post things the community likes, you're welcome to stay. You'll be rewarded. You'll gain likes and followers. You'll gain praise and friendship. As long as you contribute to the cult leader's empire, you're a valued member of the team.

But if you start posting things in opposition to the group norms, things will quickly change. Suddenly people will be against you. You'll risk shame and negativity. In some cases you even risk excommunication.

There was no sign that said, "Welcome to the Cult."

The key difference here is that this community is based on value, and you can leave anytime you want. Sometimes people even promote that course of action. In dangerous cults, everything else follows a similar path, but when you decide to leave, that's when sh*t gets ugly.

I was hoping that most people here would see the parallels of the "cult" and what we have going on here. Very similar dynamics except everyone here is free to go and the *cult* leader isn't deviously plotting how to extract every dollar out of your wallet/purse.

The purpose of the cult is actually detrimental to the cult itself -- freedom from anything and everything. Kinda like a self-defeating business model -- on Match.com if you find the love of your life and the service does its job, they lose a customer.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

The thread that keeps giving value...

Thanks @SinisterLex

 

[Lex DeVille]

Quick question for the forum, who is a legit "guru", someone who provides real value? How can you determine who's advice to follow? Should we throw out all of personal development out the window?

Start by figuring out what you need help with. What problem are you trying to solve in your business?

• Do you need help with mindset?
• Do you need help with copywriting?
• Do you need help with branding?
• Do you need help with funnels?
• Do you need help with ads?
• Do you need help with publicity?
• Do you need help with sales calls?

Then use Google to see who pops up when you search for the specific thing you need help with. Join their Facebook group and scroll through the history of posts to see what other users say.

Look for posts where people had a positive response. Not just any positive response, but a positive response that specifically describes how the course or program changed their lives.

For instance, if the course is a sales course, do group members say the course was "really helpful" or do they say, "I experienced a 50% increase in close rates and earned over $30,000 in November."

You need to know that the program you're considering has helped other people in the way you want it to help you. If everyone just says, "it was great" or "it was useful" or "the material was so informative" then it's a bunch of vague bullcrap, and there probably wasn't much substance to the program.

People often give vague testimonials when programs don't quite live up to expectations. They feel bad about outing the guru and also feel like it was probably their own fault they didn't get results. So they just leave a vaguely positive testimonial (conforming with group norms) and get back to life.

This is a destructive cult tactic...initiating feelings of guilt has kept many cult members from speaking the truth about their experience because they don't want to socially isolate themselves.

Referrals can be a good source of quality recommendations (assuming the referrer has been through the program and actually got something from it).

 

[MJ DeMarco]

This is why there is no such thing "as perceived value". If somebody value's something it's real.

I think you missed the point of "perceived value" as explained in Unscripted . Perceived value is a function of marketing and expectation. If a marketer sets an expectation and it doesn't match the reality, perceived value and actual value are 2 totally different things. So you are wrong. Completely.

If I sell you a guaranteed 20% return on your investment in a promissory note, you buy on the expectation (perceived value) of receiving 20% per annum.

When you get a 3% return on your investment and then ask for your money back, you don't get it and instead I waffle with excuses, "Checks in the mail bro."

Perceived value got you to buy.
Actual value got you to want your money back.​

Obviously this example is clear cut because the perceived and actual value is numerical.

When numbers can't be assigned to perceived and actual, that's where the gray area arises.

"This book will change your life."

OMG it did! (Perceived = actual)
OMG that book sucked. (Perceived does not equal actual.)

 

[Vigilante]

It's funny, because around a month ago, I decided to go through a marketing funnel as research. The promotion of this webinar was quite impressive and had been promoted by other marketers whose email lists I signed up to as research.

I knew I didn't want the product when I decided to enter the funnel. I just wanted to study the funnel. Marketing porn, I guess.

So eventually I begin watching their webinar. All along, I'm making mental notes, raising a wry smile whenever I noticed what they were up to.

There I was, sat watching this webinar as "the street smart, educated individual that knew I wouldn't be duped."

But time started to get on, and I had other stuff I needed to do. So I quit watching, right?

Nope. Subconsciously, there were open loops that needed answering.

Towards the end of the webinar, when the social proof was being added, the scarcity elements were being thrown in etc. Something f*cked up happened.

I noticed that my mind had wandered off and was figuring whether I could pay for this product.

That says it all. On a conscious level, I had no intention of purchasing this product. But they had hit enough psychological triggers that a deep part of me needed what they were offering.

It was an interesting learning experience. When I'm writing copy, I include these elements, but because I'm the crafting the message, it's hard to imagine how powerful they are. It's a kind of... produce what you've learned and trust the process kind of thing. But man, that was an eye opener.

Amazing. So you knew going in what it was, but the techniques were so powerful that they broke down the barriers anyway. Frightening, really.

 

[rogue synthetic]

I have always marched to my own drummer and have never fallen for any kind of pitch like this and don't understand how people do.

You're probably right about having some resistance to these guru-triggers, but it's worth drilling a little deeper into this belief.

We can pull out two common mistakes about persuasion:

1. The guru is an all-powerful warlock. He weaves a spell and can make anyone believe anything, do anything.

2. I won't ever fall for this stuff because I know better.

Both of these are wrong. They're wrong because they miss out on a key ingredient.

In The True Believer, Eric Hoffer tells us that mass movements appeal to a certain kind of person: the frustrated. Frustration means just what it sounds like.

You believe that the world should be one way. But it isn't -- and you don't see any way to do anything about it.

Hoffer's point is that some people in society are so alienated from themselves that they see nothing left for them.

They will accept anyone who offers a new message as long as it provides them with a new identity and a separation from the hopeless present.

Now, all of us are frustrated in some way. Doesn't this mean that the next Hitler could come along and turn you into a Nazi?

Not exactly. Here's why.

Persuasion triggers aren't sorcery. Nobody can wave a magic wand and bewitch you out of the blue into thinking or wanting or doing anything they want you to do.

Imagine a hardcore atheist shows up at an Amish community, hoping he can use psychological triggers to run "game" on them and turn them from their faith.

He's going to fail.

The community itself provides a powerful, closely-knit identity for all of its members. To sell them on atheism you'd have to replace that identity with another, and that's no easy thing to do.

There's no fit between the message and the market.

Being a part of a community with a strong shared identity is one of the best ways to resist the indoctrination of mass movements and the gurus hawking them.

Persuasion works by exploiting existing desires, pains, and identities -- or things which a skillful persuader can connect to those things.

We've had reports in this thread of people who are aware they are being sold, right down to pointing out the methods, and still feel the pull of these sales tactics enough to push the button (this includes me).

This doesn't mean that anybody who writes a sales letter, gives a webinar, or gives an amazing public oration can capture your soul. This isn't black magic and gurus are not warlocks.

This is why you're probably right about not being sold by the guru business model.

For the same reason, I doubt too many people would be brought into orbit around a Manson or Jones or Koresh either. To paraphrase Gary Halbert, most of us aren't hungry enough to buy their hamburgers.

But here's the trick: with the legit cults, they don't have to appeal to everyone -- just the right people.

And that goes for any type of marketing, which is the real moral here:

Everyone has his or her own frustrations, pains, needs, and wants.

You may not be the starving crowd that goes for bro-marketing hamburgers... but maybe you fall for the Facebook news feed, or the latest iGadget, or the right political party, or...

Name your vice and someone is willing to sell it to you.

And you are susceptible to anyone who knows how to push those buttons, to speak to your fears and frustrations, to promise your wildest dreams, or to connect with the things that you take as most valuable.

What is most worrying about the psychology of selling is not that it is used in these obvious ways, which most of us will see right through... though even then we still feel the pull of the triggers.

The biggest problem? Persuasion fades into the background noise and sneaks up on you where you aren't expecting it.

When it works on you, you probably won't even notice it.

 

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[Raoul Duke]

 

[Lex DeVille]

INC magazine called me a "Social Media Rockstar" for a reason. I know social media as good as the palm of my hand.

If that's not the biggest red flag ever, I don't know what is. Opening with bullcrap social proof based on free publicity anyone can get. Didn't even need to read beyond that line.

I did read beyond it though (since MJ tagged me), and here are my thoughts... MJ can see it, but I wonder if anyone else can. A post that has 34 likes must be good, right?

No.

I never liked his first post from his notable thread. Looked shady as shit just like this one. So I stopped reading the first one and never returned to it. Anyone who looks closely will find every persuasion tactic in the book used in this guy's posts. From copywriting to pre-suasion techniques, to social credibility, to a personal branding references.

The way you prove that you have that presence, is by doing something that gets you publicity.

You could:

• Get massively popular in one social media platform, then cross promote others, then show the audience you have
• Do something viral
• Get media coverage (online or offline), show credibility
• Build your personal brand

Surprise! The way you prove your presence is by showing credibility and building your personal brand. Kind of reminds me of something...ah, yes...the way gurus last shift in their 5 shift webinar ALWAYS suggests you "get mentoring." In other words the final shift or bullet should always be to "get the thing I'm planning to sell you later on."

Guarantee this is leading back to a course or 8 week program...

 

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[Brad S]

So much is perception as well.

Objective truth is something that's very hard to see.

You could make an argument that the greatest con man of our age could be someone like Elon Musk.

Now I'm not saying he is a con man or that he isn't, but there are some short sellers on Wall Street that certainly think he is with Tesla.

Maybe even space x.

Many people couldn't even stand the thought of this.

That their Jesus like figure may not be the Son of God.

But some of the boxes are checked for typical con men like attributes.

There's a saying about people who have been conned:

It's easier to con them again, then to convince them they have been conned.

There is a documentary on Netflix called Betting On Zero.

It's about a hedge fund guy named Bill Ackman.

He shorts Herbalife a billion dollars.

Then he goes on a campaign.

He does major news shows and a live presentation documenting how it's nothing but a Pyramid scam.

Which of course, it is.

He makes a persuasive case live and almost cries at one point.

He meets some of the victims or "customers" who have lost their life savings.

The amazing part is the stock never falls.

They show the herbalife convention that looks like a religious brainwashing seminar.

The majority of people there have heard the arguments and evidence about it being a Pyramid scam and actually respond in anger defending it.

It's like the matrix when morpheus says that people are so dependent on the system that even when shown evidence that it's a simulation they will angrily resist you.

People can not deal with cognitive dissonance.

Anyway.

I think the line between con man entrepreneur, salesperson, visionary can all get blurred.

There are many shades of gray between black-and-white.

Usually the one who speaks with the most certainty dictates the perception of objective truth.





Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

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[Charnell]

For instance, a lot of people read Ca$hvertising and a few other bits of copywriting and think they should center align their text on the website, and give people commands to "act now!" But often those techniques fall flat when it's not what the audience needs from the writing.

If I sell a "calming bath soap" my customers will want every word of what I write to be about calming, soothing, natural, refreshing, relaxing. If I use direct response tactics like center aligning my text (which isn't a calming and natural way to read) and buttons that say "Buy Now!" (which is in your face) it won't suddenly compel them to buy.

So this is a matter of applying the appropriate styles and techniques based on what the customer needs to make the decision to move forward.

I feel like I learned more about copywriting in those 3 paragraphs than most books I've read.

 

[Vigilante]

WTF, this thread is forcing me to think of another TAG beyond GOLD... platinum? Legendary? Mind blown?

View attachment 18256

More thanks and rep+

Best content to come along in a LONG TIME.

 

[GMSI7D]

Thanks for the response and for the resource, will definitely read into it.

As for tactics being neutral, I agree.. but what about someone who is marketing their product and they are excellent marketers and can utilize these tactics very well to give people that extra push to purchase their product vs competitors'.. but their product isn't actually the best in the market if you evaluate it unbiased.. so would that make him deceptive? .. he got them to purchase it because his tactics appealed to the emotions, desires, and other psychological barriers in people's mind that made them choose and purchase it

capitalism has to deal with the human's way of responding to the world

if people were logical, there would be no need for all these tactics designed to make them buy

you would just say :

" dear customer , here are the features of this car. as you can see , this is a safe car. this is a good price so since you are a logical guy , you just have to buy . this is common sense, thanks "

but it doesn't work that way

buying a ferrari is not a logical thing . it is an emotional thing

the first thing you learn when you study manipulation if that you can't manage people with logic

you can't manage your wife / husband with logic

--> you have to use emotions, anything else

you can't manage your children with logic

--> you have to use emotions, anything else


you can't manage your dog with logic

--> you have to use emotions, anything else

you can't manage customers with logic

--> you have to use emotions, anything else

you can't manage the masses with logic

--> you have to use emotions ,anything else

we have to deal with human nature whether we like it or not

we are emotional creatures pretending to be adult and logical


so yes , the problem with emotions and irrational behaviour is that you can manipulate people easily

that's why this topic was created




.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Just gonna leave this here...

 

[Lex DeVille]

but what don't people use logic to see the value of a product ?

why is copywriting forced to use emotions, tricks and so on ?

the book " breakthrough advertising" is a master piece of social engineering

---> harnessing the power of people desire and emotions


this is exactly the same thing that think tanks do in social institue : how to manage the masses because we can't talk to them directly with logic


why can't we just walk before the masses and say :

"you are grown enough to judge things ? aren't you ? why should we use emotions on you ? "


can we be real for a minute or not ?

Humans are emotional by nature. I didn't say don't use emotion in copywriting. People buy with emotions and justify with logic.

I'm saying persuasion isn't the purpose of copywriting. It's a byproduct. The purpose of copywriting and sales is to communicate value in ways people are receptive to. Once they find value in a product, they persuade themselves to buy.

If the product turns out to be shit, they won't buy again, even if loads of persuasive tactics are used.

It's not really about harnessing the power of desires and emotions. If that's what you believe, you may have read Mein Kampf one too many times.

Some people use it that way...

Most who try, fail.

Those who believe in power at the expense of others are called parasites. The world ends up removing them because they add little value for everyone else.

but this is also your main weakness because gurus know this and they will use it against you

This is also your main weakness because gurus sold you every book they have and you took the bait. Now your posts reflect things you've read, but haven't applied. It's the same.

I'm pointing this out because you keep indirectly calling people stupid and lumping forum members in with that group. People aren't receptive to your words which is why it doesn't matter how many times you say them, or how much proof or books you mention.

They don't care.

It's not that they don't care about the subject. Some do, and some have even connected with your words. Mainly the problem is you want to persuade people without communicating value clearly so they'll listen.

Copywriting works the same.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

What Lex is laying out here is gold.

Yup, just upgraded it from NOTABLE to GOLD.

 

[dgr]

Step by Step Guide on How to
Make Big Bucks Online Today
Even if you don't have any knowledge or real experience
​

Have you tried to build an online business that after all your hard work failed miserably? Stop wasting YOUR time. This step by step guide has been engineered to take you by the hand from broke to freedom.

It requires little effort and has proven results. It works as magic, believe it or not.

Start now with step one:

Step 1: setup

You will need some tools to get started, so:

- Setup a leadpages.net account
- Setup a teachable.com account
- Setup a gotomeeting.com/webinar account, or any other webinar platform
- Download Camtasia or any other screencast program
- (Optional) Setup a paypal or stripe account

Step 2: create your high-quality, high-ticket content

Don't worry, this is going to be easy. You don't need any knowledge or experience.

The only skill you need is to know how to copy and paste content, basic computer use, and basic English understanding.

If you are reading this, you already have all the skills you'll need.

Let's go:

- Copy all the content from this thread into a document (google docs, MS Word, ... whatever)
- Remove every reference to a guru and replace it with something about your client's success and the quality content you are providing. I.e. you have to turn a statement like "A high-ticket guru CTA almost always leads to one of three places" in something like "Your high-ticket CTA must lead to one of this three places".
- (Optional) Extra mile: you can rewrite all the content using your own words for maximum impact. But if it seems like too much work, you can avoid it.

Step 3: recording your content for maximum impact

This step requires a little bit of work, but it's easy and actually you can do it very quickly.

- The document from Step 2 is your script. Now, go and create some powerpoint presentations with titles and bullet points that summarize that script. One presentation for each topic (each SinisterLex post here).
- Record some videos with your preferred screencast program. Just record your screen with the powerpoint presentation in it, as you are reading your script.
- Upload your videos to your teachable account.

Step 4: promoting your content

Congratulations! If you have reach this point, you already have a great product to sell. A product that a lot of people desperate for making money is going to buy. You only have to take one more step to earn your freedom.

Here you have it. You are going to use all the tactics you have copied in your document to promote your own course.

But first, you will need to do some stuff to increase your credibility and authority:
- Get dressed in your best suit. If you don't have a suit, don't worry. You can dress shorts, flip-flops and sunglasses instead.
- Go to the richest part of your city accompanied by your wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/cat/dog/ferret/friend (whoever you have at hand)
- Locate some luxury cars parked and take several pictures of you and your companion leaning on the car, as if it were yours.

Now, let's go for the online promotion:
- First, create a pre-recorded webinar following the steps layout in the post about webinars. Use the pictures you've taken before for this webinar.
- Then, create a landing page with leadpages using the tactics explained in the post about landing pages. Use here more of the pictures you've taken before. This landing page will fill your webinars attendance.
- Don't forget to create a sales script to follow later, with the content in the post about the call.

Now is when money starts rolling in:
- Start a facebook ads campaign with the copywriting tactics exposed in the post about facebook ads. Those ads will link with your landing page.
- Wait for the first calls to happen. Note that using a call is optional, but highly recommended. You can have all the process working on automatic, linking your pre-recorded webinar with your teachable sign-up page. But high-tickets usually happen in calls.
- Collect the money with paypal, stripe, bank transfer... and then,
- give your new client access to your teachable high-quality, high-ticket content.

That's it.

This 4 easy steps cover all you need to start making money online TODAY and earn the freedom that you deserve.

The only thing you DON'T need is ethics.

So, what's stopping you?

EDIT: I hope that nobody takes this as a serious attempt to teach something and actually do it

 

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[Lex DeVille]

Watching The Push on Netflix this evening. Worth a watch if you want to see how profound these psychological techniques can be. Derren Brown applies many familiar methods to get a man to push another man from a building using a compliance test followed by small commitments leading to bigger commitments and even the assumption of an alternative identity.

You'll find all of Cialdini's principles of persuasion at play here, as well as the effects of social pressure and their power to persuade. You'll also see how those with money can completely control an experience from start to finish without an individual ever having a clue.

 

[Fox]

Excellent post Lex.

When you get time can you break down what you think are legit ways for a good course to advertise and market themselves.

Repped and following.

Edit - did you give away all your rep points?