Self-chosen prison as a doctor in urology

[Aryana1988]

Hi everybody,

This is my first thread, and I am very nervous to write it Trembling right now, haha.

My name is Aryana, I'm 28 years old and I live in the Netherlands. I always wanted to be a doctor, when I was little. Now I am, and nowadays I am working on my PhD in the field of urology, specifically prostate cancer. I will finish my PhD in 2017 (October probably).

The idea of being a doctor when I was little is so different from what it really is. I never thought I would say this, but I feel like I'm trapped in a self-chosen prison, and am feel like a failure if I choose to quit this track. I want to finish my PhD, but at the same time I'm starting to think that I don't want to live the life of a fulltime slave of patients. I love to treat my patients, but you wouldn't guess how much of the time I spent just doing adminstration. In the Netherlands, to be urologist, you need to study and work at the same time at least 6 years. Working hours are from 7 am to 7 pm, with sometimes night shifts or 24 hour workdays. It's not that I don't want to work that hard, on the contrary: if it is to save someones life, I would jump! But it's still a prison...No freedom to work the hours you want, no time to work out, no time for family or fun. This is starting to become more and more important for me.

I do really think it is a shame if I would just quit, but I was curious to know what you think of completing my PhD and also becoming a specialist or expert in urology. It's not as easy as it seems, to develop something new in this field: I mean, dermatologists can develop new skin or hairproducts. The known experts in urology all work very hard and earn the same salary, so it's not the money, but the recognition of being an expert.

I have so many doubts lately, and none of my friends seems to care that we are just slaves for a hospital.

Does anybody have any useful information or tips on what to do in this kind of situation?

Thank you in advance.

Hugs
Aryana

 

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[Harti]

I've always wondered why people decide to become urologists. Can you shed a light on what your thought process was like?

 

[devine]

This is how you turn pretty much anything into fastlane. Don't have time to write anything else now, but you can write me a message and we'll have a discussion when I'll be available.

 

[nicotini]

Hello Aryana, first of all thank you for your thread. I have similar doubts, even if I am still in my last year of Med school (Italy). Apart from the mandatory specialisation time, which can't be avoided obviously, I have been thinking about what are the best opportunities to take (and give) the most value/wealth/time from a doctor's occupation. So it would be very interesting to hear some of the experiences of the people here who are already deep in the medical field here, if there are any (but I think there are).

 

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[Yoda]

My advice would be to ask yourself what you want out of life. What's a perfect day look like?

Only then can you really see if your current path meets your future goals' expectations somewhere down the line.

No matter the line of work, there is work involved. Sometimes it's disguised as admin work, other times it's cleaning toilets, changing oil in a car, checking 1,000 pieces of inventory for flaws, hiring and firing, etc. It never leaves completely.

Decide what you want long term, then make your short term decisions.

 

[SteveO]

Most people that are successful in business tend to view accomplishments as a daily part of life.

You are not bound to anything as you feel that you are. There are many options going forward.

The biggest issue is with yourself. You have achieved a major goal that you set but you feel trapped. This feeling will not go away without a change in outlook. Be happy and find pleasure in where you are. Continue on the quest of what you want to become.

 

[Aryana1988]

I've always wondered why people decide to become urologists. Can you shed a light on what your thought process was like?

Hi Harti, Hahaha, nice one. I think it’s a part of me that’s missing I’m really interested in .

And now seriously: it’s a wonderful specialization. Imagine this (in a perfect world). You come early into work, have 5 operations in the morning where you can adjust a penis, cut out a tumor from the bladder, sterilize a man and so on. People are mostly happy when you help them. After lunch (mostly you'll skip due to lack of time), you see 10 new patients who are 60% male, the other 40% is female. Their problems vary: sometimes its prostate problems, sometimes it’s urinary incontinence after a cesarion operation, sometimes it’s something serious like penile cancer and sometimes it’s a young boy of 10 months with a hypospadias. The diversity in work and in type of problems is nice.

 

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[Aryana1988]

View attachment 13331

This is how you turn pretty much anything into fastlane. Don't have time to write anything else now, but you can write me a message and we'll have a discussion when I'll be available.

Hi Devine,
First of, I love your name!! Thank you so much for this insight. I’ll message you soon.

 

[Aryana1988]

Hello Aryana, first of all thank you for your thread. I have similar doubts, even if I am still in my last year of Med school (Italy). Apart from the mandatory specialisation time, which can't be avoided obviously, I have been thinking about what are the best opportunities to take (and give) the most value/wealth/time from a doctor's occupation. So it would be very interesting to hear some of the experiences of the people here who are already deep in the medical field here, if there are any (but I think there are).

Hi Nicotini, (why do you guys have such awesome names…)

Thank you, well, one thing is for sure: the medical field is really nice if you can do what you want to do: the surgeries are a plus. Time with patients is a bonus. However, there is so much subspecialisation here in the Netherlands, that its not possible to do everything you want, and most of the time it's administration. You need to be good in 1 field, and that’s it. Imagine yourself in your 60’s and only removing tumors from a bladder. You can only help like 200-300 patients a year in this academic center I work in, and in general hospitals you are mostly allowed to operate more: like 500-1000. That’s not much impact. I know a dermatologist who turned an amazing product she made into a Fastlane business. She only wanted to help other moms, so that’s how it all started. In the Netherlands, its not always possible to determine your own time and schedule, which I don't like about the medical field.

 

[Aryana1988]

My advice would be to ask yourself what you want out of life. What's a perfect day look like?

Only then can you really see if your current path meets your future goals' expectations somewhere down the line.

No matter the line of work, there is work involved. Sometimes it's disguised as admin work, other times it's cleaning toilets, changing oil in a car, checking 1,000 pieces of inventory for flaws, hiring and firing, etc. It never leaves completely.

Decide what you want long term, then make your short term decisions.

Hi Yoda, great advise. You’re right. It’s something me and a lot of my peers forget. I love doing this work (still NO freedom whatsoever), but I need to find a way to make it fit, OR decide that other things in life are more important and change my path.

 

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[Aryana1988]

Most people that are successful in business tend to view accomplishments as a daily part of life.

You are not bound to anything as you feel that you are. There are many options going forward.

The biggest issue is with yourself. You have achieved a major goal that you set but you feel trapped. This feeling will not go away without a change in outlook. Be happy and find pleasure in where you are. Continue on the quest of what you want to become.

Hi SteveO,
Thanks, that’s a nice way to say it. I think it’s time that I start to think differently indeed. It’s a process and I feel that my hands are tied, but maybe I need to see the opportunities instead of the traps. It's not that I'm not happy: in my work I am happy. But I work so hard (without the recognition and the rewards in money), and have little time for the things that I really love doing, like working out or reading, dancing, learning a new language, traveling and seeing my family. It's sometimes a 80-90 hour workweek. You work and work, but can only have 3 weeks of in a year. Doesn't sound like fastlane...

 

[Crossroads]

Welcome, Aryana!

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Whatever you decide, you need to be aware of the Sunk Cost Fallacy -- the bigger your investment into a certain field, the harder it will be for you to switch gears. As humans, we have an internal desire NOT to see our past investments "fail" -- as such, we continue doing things our heart no longer wants to do.

 

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[FastNAwesome]

Hi Aryana and welcome to the forum.

I've met 2 urologists who have private practices and make a great living.

On one hand, they do work with patients - mostly potency, fertility and STD issues.
On the other hand - they're both producing their own brands of potency/fertility products which are widely available - that's something detached from their time, a real, scalable business.

 

[nradam123]

First off, complete your studies. Don't take extreme jumps without precision.

Secondly, you are in Netherland. So be happy lol. I wish to come to Netherlands again soon, its such a nice place.

Thirdly, this is a hard decision @Aryana1988, you need to make it yourself. In the book Millionaire Fastlane MJ DeMarco talks about something called "Weighted Average Decision Matrix". I am not sure if there is an app or website online but the steps are given in the book. The biggest problem with the technique is that you will have to be hyper-realistic. Like, you have to face some harsh realities and tell the truth (to yourself) inorder to answer the questions properly. And that will give you a clear idea of what you should do, whether you do it or not is your choice

I literally pussied out everytime I did WADM, so i am talking from experience lol.

Lastly, I think you have a good challenge now. Literally all you have to do is -
A) Know where you are now (PHD, Urology .etc)
B) Know what you want (Face harsh realities .etc, this is a really hard question. Do you REALLY know what you want?). Set a GOAL accordingly.
C) Build the system/machine/design to move from A to B.

And remember that although it is an iterative process you should not change (B) much once you fix it.
You are free to iterate and change (C) as much as you want, which you SHOULD because building a machine needs tinkering as you learn more about the tools and resources available to you.
But (B) needs consistent effort so dont change that much. You need to focus once you make a choice. My biggest mistake in my first year as an entrepreneur was changing (B) too much.

A,B,C is basically what I think is the best way to do anything in life, not just build a business but literally any accomplishments in life.

PS: For everyone who think how I am so smart, I just copied Ray Dalio's Principles (https://www.principles.com/)

 

[Ricardo's]

I agree with Devine. You already know of what the common problems of your target market are so sell them a solution. Either a product or a service.

Probably a product since you're so busy.

 

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[Mattie]

I have no clue what courses you've taken in the medical field to become a Urologist, but I would think with all the medical training you'd be able to shift into Holistic Medicine or some avenue. Isn't there basic Medical Education all Doctors take before they become specialized?

I know my family doctored switched to Sports Medicine at one point. So I would think there would be something you could do. I believe you're only trapped if you believed your trapped. I'm sure you'd just have to do some research on your own, and see what kind of Medical Entrepreneurs out there and what they aim to achieve.

 

[Vigilante]

View attachment 13331

This is how you turn pretty much anything into fastlane. Don't have time to write anything else now, but you can write me a message and we'll have a discussion when I'll be available.

Gold.

 

[Vigilante]

Whatever you decide, you need to be aware of the Sunk Cost Fallacy -- the bigger your investment into a certain field, the harder it will be for you to switch gears. As humans, we have an internal desire NOT to see our past investments "fail" -- as such, we continue doing things our heart no longer wants to do.

View attachment 13333

Gold. Excellent reminder.

 

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[TonyStark]

Have you read the book?

 

[Aryana1988]

Welcome, Aryana!

Thank you

 

[Aryana1988]

Whatever you decide, you need to be aware of the Sunk Cost Fallacy -- the bigger your investment into a certain field, the harder it will be for you to switch gears. As humans, we have an internal desire NOT to see our past investments "fail" -- as such, we continue doing things our heart no longer wants to do.

View attachment 13333

Hi MJ, Thank you. I agree, but being an expert could also be quite rewarding afterwards. First, Urology was my true passion: I loved everything about it. Now, I only see doctors complaining about long working hours and the dissatisfaction they have with all 'extra' work. I tried to see my job as a journey leading to a fastlane (scaling etc.). That's why I have doubts if this would be something, you know to free myself from all commitments. The ideas that lovely people on this forum have given me, are valuable. I don't know if I can build a system which runs without me, but maybe that's possible (i.e. writing a book or selling a product).

But I totally agree: changing is harder if you're so deep in it...I think I still love the work, but didn't know how to make it a profitable business. And now, I hope to explore the field beyond being just a urologist.

 

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[Aryana1988]

Hi Aryana and welcome to the forum.

I've met 2 urologists who have private practices and make a great living.

On one hand, they do work with patients - mostly potency, fertility and STD issues.
On the other hand - they're both producing their own brands of potency/fertility products which are widely available - that's something detached from their time, a real, scalable business.

Hi FastNAwesome,
Nice, I like that. Thank you for this insight!

 

[Aryana1988]

First off, complete your studies. Don't take extreme jumps without precision.

Secondly, you are in Netherland. So be happy lol. I wish to come to Netherlands again soon, its such a nice place.

Thirdly, this is a hard decision @Aryana1988, you need to make it yourself. In the book Millionaire Fastlane MJ DeMarco talks about something called "Weighted Average Decision Matrix". I am not sure if there is an app or website online but the steps are given in the book. The biggest problem with the technique is that you will have to be hyper-realistic. Like, you have to face some harsh realities and tell the truth (to yourself) inorder to answer the questions properly. And that will give you a clear idea of what you should do, whether you do it or not is your choice

I literally pussied out everytime I did WADM, so i am talking from experience lol.

Lastly, I think you have a good challenge now. Literally all you have to do is -
A) Know where you are now (PHD, Urology .etc)
B) Know what you want (Face harsh realities .etc, this is a really hard question. Do you REALLY know what you want?). Set a GOAL accordingly.
C) Build the system/machine/design to move from A to B.

And remember that although it is an iterative process you should not change (B) much once you fix it.
You are free to iterate and change (C) as much as you want, which you SHOULD because building a machine needs tinkering as you learn more about the tools and resources available to you.
But (B) needs consistent effort so dont change that much. You need to focus once you make a choice. My biggest mistake in my first year as an entrepreneur was changing (B) too much.

A,B,C is basically what I think is the best way to do anything in life, not just build a business but literally any accomplishments in life.

PS: For everyone who think how I am so smart, I just copied Ray Dalio's Principles (https://www.principles.com/)

Hi Nradam,
I won't quit You're always welcome to come to the Netherlands!

I used the Weighted Average Decision Matrix. It came out approximately 51/50 to stay. So that's not very much, as you can see. I was very honest with it, but was not surprised, since my doubts made me complete the Matrix.

I like the ABC principle. In my free time, I read everything considering building a business (The 4 Hour Work Week, the Confidence Gap, Cashvertising etc.), but now I need to do more research on building a SYSTEM in my field.

Keep you posted on outcomes

 

[Aryana1988]

I agree with Devine. You already know of what the common problems of your target market are so sell them a solution. Either a product or a service.

Probably a product since you're so busy.

Thanks The service is part of the job I think, but to really detach my time, a product would be best.

 

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[Aryana1988]

I have no clue what courses you've taken in the medical field to become a Urologist, but I would think with all the medical training you'd be able to shift into Holistic Medicine or some avenue. Isn't there basic Medical Education all Doctors take before they become specialized?

I know my family doctored switched to Sports Medicine at one point. So I would think there would be something you could do. I believe you're only trapped if you believed your trapped. I'm sure you'd just have to do some research on your own, and see what kind of Medical Entrepreneurs out there and what they aim to achieve.

Hi Mattie,
Thank you. It's not that I don't like Urology. I think it's more that it's sometimes a office-job: working long hours, with little free time to enjoy other things in life.
I can always switch to another type of specialty, but it would still be working for a boss. Most of the time, you don't make your own decisions.
When I see al the other opportunities, I now know that it's a part of the road to 'succes'/ fastlane or how you want to call it. I think now, that it's time for me to see beyong being a urologist. Maybe I'm more of the type that it's entrepreneurial in the Medical field...

 

[Aryana1988]

Have you read the book?

Hi Jasoncuellar, Yes, I did, why do you ask?

 

[Warr]

Mate, I'm in a similar position but in Aus. I think the biggest issue we face is that it is always an exchange of personal exertion for money with no scalability beyond yourself and no passivity so as success comes as a consultant, our success just creates a bigger rod for our own back. More success and more patients = more busyness and less free time. I think whether we keep doing clinical medicine or not, we need something outside of ourselves that as semi-autonomous and scalable. I only just joined though so the other guys on the board will have alot more insights to lend.

Interesting what MJ says about sunk cost - it's of course completely correct and a common mistake people make. Does that however mean that we should do something totally unrelated or instead try to swing something medical that is actually fastlane - like a medical business, product or invention for example..?

 

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[Ninjakid]

Welcome to the forum

Congratulations on nearly finishing your medical degree.

Here's my advice for you, if advice from a faceless stranger on the internet can have any merit. One of the most valuable qualities to have in life is self-discipline, and the ability to finish what you started. It's just as valuable in business. You've wanted this since you were young, and I would imagine you've worked incredibly hard, harder than most of us can imagine, to get to where you are. It would be a shame to throw it away a medical degree when you're so close to achieving it. So with that said, I would advise you to finish it, and decide what you want to do with it later (if you do anything with it).

Sometimes, when working towards something, we lose our fire we had before, and we get sidetracked by something that seems better. But ultimately, it's more rewarding to finish what you've started. Business is oftentimes the same way. Sometimes you end up working so hard, you almost forget why you're doing it. But accomplishment is good for one's well-being.

There's lots of avenues for doctors which don't involve working in a hospital. I feel that in today's world we need advancements in medicine more than ever, and it's an incredibly exciting time because our understanding of the human body is almost another world from even ten years ago.

A lot of people have come here saying they want to drop out of school or whatever they're doing, and just start a business. This pretty much never turn out well.

You have all the time in the world to start a business. My advice is finish what you started.

Feel free to message me if you want to take more.

 

[nicotini]

Yea

Hi Nicotini, (why do you guys have such awesome names…)

Thank you, well, one thing is for sure: the medical field is really nice if you can do what you want to do: the surgeries are a plus. Time with patients is a bonus. However, there is so much subspecialisation here in the Netherlands, that its not possible to do everything you want, and most of the time it's administration. You need to be good in 1 field, and that’s it. Imagine yourself in your 60’s and only removing tumors from a bladder. You can only help like 200-300 patients a year in this academic center I work in, and in general hospitals you are mostly allowed to operate more: like 500-1000. That’s not much impact. I know a dermatologist who turned an amazing product she made into a Fastlane business. She only wanted to help other moms, so that’s how it all started. In the Netherlands, its not always possible to determine your own time and schedule, which I don't like about the medical field.

Yeah, getting enough spare time to work on your projects is surely difficult when you're a doctor, not only in the Netherlands. On the other side there's a really positive thing, by working a lot you get to listen to the really precise problems your patients face in your specific field and that's surely something valuable, as solving people's needs is the key here (@devine 's pic is a further proof). Maybe one idea would be focusing on post-op minor problems? You know I'm not talking about selling drugs, but for example a free PDF about exercises for the pelvic floor (not sure if you call it that way) and publicizing supplements against post-surgery incontinence would be a start