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Antifragile

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Great podcast @Andy Black ! Really enjoyed it, favourite part "your job is to determine if the person sitting across from you sees your product as value or cost".

I remember reading this book that was an eye opener, changed my view of "no" forever:

Start with No: The Negotiating Tools That the Pros Don't Want You to Know
by
Jim Camp
 
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Great podcast @Andy Black ! Really enjoyed it, favourite part "your job is to determine if the person sitting across from you sees your product as value or cost".

I remember reading this book that was an eye opener, changed my view of "no" forever:

Start with No: The Negotiating Tools That the Pros Don't Want You to Know
by
Jim Camp
It’s so interesting what people’s favourite part or takeaways are. Often it seems to be comments that pop into our heads as we’re chatting. Thanks for that feedback.

Thanks for the link to that book. I have to think more about how Brendan uses soft No. Mine is more of a hard No (I don’t want this work).

Curious if you’re watching on YouTube, listening (on what platform?) or if you went through to the site.
 

Antifragile

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It’s so interesting what people’s favourite part or takeaways are. Often it seems to be comments that pop into our heads as we’re chatting. Thanks for that feedback.

Thanks for the link to that book. I have to think more about how Brendan uses soft No. Mine is more of a hard No (I don’t want this work).

Curious if you’re watching on YouTube, listening (on what platform?) or if you went through to the site.
I was watching it from Youtube but saw it here on the forum.

I believe No is the greatest tool we have, it is the only answer that makes any kind of sense. What I mean is that when someone says "Maybe" we all agree that's the worst. But we often take "yes" to mean "yes", but people may mean "yes, get off my back, I'll think about it and it'll become later a no, I just don't feel comfortable saying no to you right now". Reverse that and sales people do the same! Afraid of a no, when no is so powerful.

I also took away another thing from the chat - always be willing to walk away. There is so much power in that because it tests the limits of a sale. If you are pushing, people will pull back, but if they are leaning in and asking for your product/service - you got it!

I am now rambling, but hopefully some of the above makes sense :).
 
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I was watching it from Youtube but saw it here on the forum.

I believe No is the greatest tool we have, it is the only answer that makes any kind of sense. What I mean is that when someone says "Maybe" we all agree that's the worst. But we often take "yes" to mean "yes", but people may mean "yes, get off my back, I'll think about it and it'll become later a no, I just don't feel comfortable saying no to you right now". Reverse that and sales people do the same! Afraid of a no, when no is so powerful.

I also took away another thing from the chat - always be willing to walk away. There is so much power in that because it tests the limits of a sale. If you are pushing, people will pull back, but if they are leaning in and asking for your product/service - you got it!

I am now rambling, but hopefully some of the above makes sense :).
Yes, it makes sense. Saying No is such an important topic.

On another note… do you think we’ve edited it so we talk a bit too fast? Someone mentioned that to Brendan but I’ve not had that feedback from anyone yet.
 

Antifragile

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I never felt you talked too fast, but I did feel it was a little "choppy". I mean the switches between you two weren't always perfect (images, not sound necessarily). I know nothing of this type of media as I am very selective in what I read/watch, so take this for what little it is worth - could you have both images at the same time on the screen and talking as if you were in the same room facing each other?
 
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I never felt you talked too fast, but I did feel it was a little "choppy". I mean the switches between you two weren't always perfect (images, not sound necessarily). I know nothing of this type of media as I am very selective in what I read/watch, so take this for what little it is worth - could you have both images at the same time on the screen and talking as if you were in the same room facing each other?
The jump-cuts might look even odder if we were both on screen. We’ll try it though.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
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Wow! I’m really enjoying this podcast! Thanks guys!
Thanks Tyler. Appreciate the feedback.

Which have you listened to so far? I’m curious what we’ve got right and what we can improve.

Have you any suggestions on future content?
 
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Andy Black

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We got our first email subscriber on the website yesterday.

We haven't added an email provider yet but podpage captures their name and email address.

1628236798521.png
 

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#4 - The power of saying No
Another solid episode.

This resonated with me too: "work out as quick as possible if the person in front of us sees the value in what we do or just the cost".

Saying No is such an important topic.
Agree. Here's another aspect of No you may find interesting:
View: https://youtu.be/waTzPF4P6oY


On another note… do you think we’ve edited it so we talk a bit too fast? Someone mentioned that to Brendan but I’ve not had that feedback from anyone yet.
I listen on Spotify and cannot comment on how choppy the video feels. The audio-only version seems fine, apart from maybe some moments when there's no break/pause between one thought and the other or between you guys speaking. But that's minor and I didn't experience it in episode #4.

If the video looks choppy, adding slides or animation could be a way to hide it / move people's attention from jumpy frames to what naturally flows on the screen and also complements what you talk about.

For example, like this:
View: https://youtu.be/sqYxLnA98N4
 
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Episode 5 - CRMs: Start simple

I listened through and can hear the edits in some sections but don’t mind.

We want episodes to be short, have a high signal to noise ratio, while still being conversational. We’re keen not to get precious about stuff that doesn’t matter.

We’re also going to try and publish twice a week. We’ll see how that goes.

Curious what your takeaways are, and any feedback on the podcast, site, etc.

 
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Andy Black

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Another solid episode.

This resonated with me too: "work out as quick as possible if the person in front of us sees the value in what we do or just the cost".


Agree. Here's another aspect of No you may find interesting:
View: https://youtu.be/waTzPF4P6oY



I listen on Spotify and cannot comment on how choppy the video feels. The audio-only version seems fine, apart from maybe some moments when there's no break/pause between one thought and the other or between you guys speaking. But that's minor and I didn't experience it in episode #4.

If the video looks choppy, adding slides or animation could be a way to hide it / move people's attention from jumpy frames to what naturally flows on the screen and also complements what you talk about.

For example, like this:
View: https://youtu.be/sqYxLnA98N4
Chris Voss makes me feel like a toddler at a professional arm wrestling competition.

I may watch this fella:
View: https://youtu.be/guZa7mQV1l0
 

Flint

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I listened through and can hear the edits in some sections but don’t mind.

We want episodes to be short, have a high signal to noise ratio, while still being conversational. We’re keen not to get precious about stuff that doesn’t matter.
Excellent. Perfectionism is a form of procrastination. Sometimes we know too much (e.g., how the sausage is made) and feel the need to improve the details that don't matter. Because doing so reduces the discomfort of doing the important work or the fear of being judged. But living with discomfort is part of the deal.

I wouldn't spend too much time on the edits either. I looked at this only because you asked. If you get a bunch of recurring UNPROMPTED requests or complaints, then it may be something to consider (because the market wants it). Otherwise, don't get distracted by things others don't even notice.

Chris Voss makes me feel like a toddler at a professional arm wrestling competition.
Have you read his Never Split The Difference? Pretty solid. It may sound it's about some hardcore negotiation and haggling, but actually, it's a great breakdown of how different communication styles block or enable progress in our interactions and relationships with others.
 
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Antifragile

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Episode 5 - CRMs: Start simple

I listened through and can hear the edits in some sections but don’t mind.

We want episodes to be short, have a high signal to noise ratio, while still being conversational. We’re keen not to get precious about stuff that doesn’t matter.

We’re also going to try and publish twice a week. We’ll see how that goes.

Curious what your takeaways are, and any feedback on the podcast, site, etc.

The edits do need a little bit of work @Andy Black

my comment comes from how the video switches between speakers. At the beginning, when Brendan only said “uhum” ,”yes” type of short words, video went to him, but you were still talking. I’d it easy to make traditions slower?

I’ve started just listening to you guys, as opposed to watching the video and that was great.

Oh, and I 2nd reading Chris Boss’s book “Never Split the Difference”. It’s a must.
 

Flint

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The edits do need a little bit of work @Andy Black

my comment comes from how the video switches between speakers. At the beginning, when Brendan only said “uhum” ,”yes” type of short words, video went to him, but you were still talking. I’d it easy to make traditions slower?

I’ve started just listening to you guys, as opposed to watching the video and that was great.

Oh, and I 2nd reading Chris Boss’s book “Never Split the Difference”. It’s a must.
Interesting. You've made me curious about how their Descript edited videos look like. I've only listened to the Spotify version.
 

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On another note… do you think we’ve edited it so we talk a bit too fast? Someone mentioned that to Brendan but I’ve not had that feedback from anyone yet.

It's somewhat noticeable, but I find it to be completely fine - I like the conciseness of the episodes, so I don't mind it.

Loving the podcast Andy, lots of valuable information - especially as I continue to build my marketing company!
 
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Thanks for the feedback about the video guys. We’re making a conscious effort to talk so less editing is needed. It may make it a little less conversational initially while we get better at it.

This is mostly to reduce editing time, but could help with the video.

The switching between speakers is a function of Zoom recording us. We could try recording us side by side.

Our current thinking is that we want to optimise for audio. We’ll delete whole sections if they’re off topic or not valuable enough. We’ll edit out filler words, and make the transcription readable.

We’ll publish the video, but we think video would be tackled differently.

A 20 minute podcast is short. A 20 minute video is kinda long. I’d like to pull 1-5 minute nuggets out of the videos and make those standalone videos.

Something I discussed with Brendan last night is that these chats draw stories and quotables out of us as we bounce off each other. We don’t have to only take the little nuggets out of the original videos - we could redo more polished versions.

The beauty of unscripted chats is they surface things we’d never produce if we sat looking at a blank piece of paper.


Something else we noticed is we’re starting to go into “podcast” mode.

As mentioned, it potentially loses some of the “two friends chatting” dynamic.

We miss just having those chats, and Brendan misses asking me questions about various things I’m up to and how I’d solve XYZ problem. We thought we’d record the next time we had one of those chats and see how that style of podcast is received.
 
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Episode 6: A chat about sales chats

We’re trying speak so we need less editing, and edit less.

Would love to know your takeaways if you listen.

 
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Andy Black

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I created a Google Sheet for me and Brendan to add ideas for episodes:
Let us know if there's anything you'd like us to cover.

1628978297650.png

Just working on the intro/outro for episode 7.
You can tell I'm a system guy right?

1628978492305.png
 

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@Andy Black, I've caught up with all episodes, including #7. The podcast is keeping up the high standards. Very cool.

It was interesting to listen to episodes #6 and #7 almost at the same time. They're quite related. In #6, Brendan talks about a decision to make whether or not someone is a client you want to have and work with: "price is not the constraint, it's whether or not you get along with them, whether or not you can count on them". Then in #7, you guys talk about doing too much for free (great topic).

I tend to agree with Brendan: you could put a price tag on the work done in your example much earlier. But as I see it, not charging early is your way of additional screening to find people that share your values. I think you want to work with those who have the same work ethic and are on the same wavelength. You want to know you can count on them. You're a man of good deeds, sincere and open, and perhaps you want to be selected for your overall personal value proposition (technical, social and moral). Maybe even appreciated for that? It probably leaves some money on the table, but... "price is not the constraint", right?

Interestingly, your approach works well for me in the context of dealing with multinational corporations where there are many layers of decision-makers, influencers and all sorts of stakeholders. You slowly build a relationship by having discussions without a "sell here and there" agenda. By learning about them and the organisation. Helping and unblocking them where you can. Demonstrating expertise and that you've got their back (by doing not talking). Giving them the time and room to decide what they want to do. Building trust and rapport. Creating a safe space where they can voice their issue and constraints. And most importantly, demonstrating that there's more to it than just making money.

I think there's a subtle difference though. There's quite a clear line between the pre-PO and post-PO space (or pre-price tag and post-price tag). To solve their problems, I need to bring in a bigger team. There needs to be a proper plan in place with clear deliverables. Other functions from the client organisation and third parties may need to join. The nature of the delivered service means it's clear when the PO needs to be raised. And even if nothing happens now, you might be surprised how often and how many of them reach out again after a few months or even years.

The nature of your work means you could be facing a slightly bigger risk of missing the optimal point for starting the money conversation early and doing the work for free. It probably also exposes you a bit to being taken advantage of by those who wouldn't be the best fit/paying customers in the first place. But overall, you may be gaining a lot more than those who want to optimise each and every potential sale. If it works and makes you happy, no need to justify it. This is the Andy Black we know, value and trust.

One of my thoughts after reading your TFLF comments for a while was "damn, would be great to work with that guy". I'm just in a different space with different things on my plate. But who knows, maybe one day our paths will cross.

Great episode and topics. Thanks for the thought provoking discussions!
 
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@Andy Black, I've caught up with all episodes, including #7. The podcast is keeping up the high standards. Very cool.

It was interesting to listen to episodes #6 and #7 almost at the same time. They're quite related. In #6, Brendan talks about a decision to make whether or not someone is a client you want to have and work with: "price is not the constraint, it's whether or not you get along with them, whether or not you can count on them". Then in #7, you guys talk about doing too much for free (great topic).

I tend to agree with Brendan: you could put a price tag on the work done in your example much earlier. But as I see it, not charging early is your way of additional screening to find people that share your values. I think you want to work with those who have the same work ethic and are on the same wavelength. You want to know you can count on them. You're a man of good deeds, sincere and open, and perhaps you want to be selected for your overall personal value proposition (technical, social and moral). Maybe even appreciated for that? It probably leaves some money on the table, but... "price is not the constraint", right?

Interestingly, your approach works well for me in the context of dealing with multinational corporations where there are many layers of decision-makers, influencers and all sorts of stakeholders. You slowly build a relationship by having discussions without a "sell here and there" agenda. By learning about them and the organisation. Helping and unblocking them where you can. Demonstrating expertise and that you've got their back (by doing not talking). Giving them the time and room to decide what they want to do. Building trust and rapport. Creating a safe space where they can voice their issue and constraints. And most importantly, demonstrating that there's more to it than just making money.

I think there's a subtle difference though. There's quite a clear line between the pre-PO and post-PO space (or pre-price tag and post-price tag). To solve their problems, I need to bring in a bigger team. There needs to be a proper plan in place with clear deliverables. Other functions from the client organisation and third parties may need to join. The nature of the delivered service means it's clear when the PO needs to be raised. And even if nothing happens now, you might be surprised how often and how many of them reach out again after a few months or even years.

The nature of your work means you could be facing a slightly bigger risk of missing the optimal point for starting the money conversation early and doing the work for free. It probably also exposes you a bit to being taken advantage of by those who wouldn't be the best fit/paying customers in the first place. But overall, you may be gaining a lot more than those who want to optimise each and every potential sale. If it works and makes you happy, no need to justify it. This is Andy Black we know, value and trust.

One of my thoughts after reading your TFLF comments for a while was "damn, would be great to work with that guy". I'm just in a different space with different things on my plate. But who knows, maybe one day our paths will cross.

Great episode and topics. Thanks for the thought provoking discussions!
Ooo. I love this detailed feedback @Flint. Brendan has good points, but (and?) you hit the nail on the head by saying I want to demonstrate there’s more to it for me than making money.

As a consultant there’s only so many clients I can take on. It’s less about the money than working with the right person. I’ll spot very quickly if someone is a taker.

The first purchase is a test, both ways. And that includes free work and all the communication leading up to an engagement.

Glad you liked that episode. It was slightly different than the others where I knew Brendan was going to have something to say about me doing work for free, and it was going to be less of us talking from the same side of the fence.
 
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Episode 7 - Are they a customer, or not?

Today we’re chatting about doing work for free versus charging for it.

In particular:
  • How "show don't tell" can work in practice.
  • How Andy interprets the phrase "Always be closing".
  • And why Brendan believes Andy is doing too much for free.

Would love to know what your takeaways are!
 

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Glad you liked that episode. It was slightly different than the others where I knew Brendan was going to have something to say about me doing work for free, and it was going to be less of us talking from the same side of the fence.
That's good, echo chambers aren't that conducive to growth.
 

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Episode 7 - Are they a customer, or not?

Today we’re chatting about doing work for free versus charging for it.

In particular:
  • How "show don't tell" can work in practice.
  • How Andy interprets the phrase "Always be closing".
  • And why Brendan believes Andy is doing too much for free.

Would love to know what your takeaways are!
Listening to this episode gave me a good idea for a quirky outbound sales issue.

So, I manage a few Facebook pages for some real estate clients. They are constantly solicited, and yesterday I saw one that was just awful. But the company is reputable.

It was so bad, I wanted to walk into the home office and ask to speak to someone about it, hoping I could turn it into a sales opportunity. I researched the company. I researched the owner. I found his two other companies. I basically cyber stalked someone for 10 minutes.

You can tell how old school I am when, even though I run a digital marketing firm, my sales solution is to just walk in cold. I'm almost embarrassed to admit I was noodling a script in my head to make this happen. Every idea was just awful. Like "Can I speak to your manager" or "Does this crap really work for you guys" or "How does it feel to burn your marketing dollars this way"? Dale Carnegie's rolling over in his grave. But I also haven't done a cold call in over a decade.

Listening to this, even though it had nothing to do with cold sales calls, now I'm thinking this will be a perfect opportunity to make a loom video. Show the boss my screen and what he is wasting his marketing dollars on. Point out a few others things I noticed on his site that could be improved. Writing that script is so much more tactful. So much more helpful.

This will make me so much more efficient. I've always rejected the cold video prospecting route, much preferring referrals, but I think this idea really has legs beyond this one off.

Thanks Andy.

Oh, and I enjoy the lively discussion. But Brendan was wrong. I'm on team Andy for episode 7.
 
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Listening to this episode gave me a good idea for a quirky outbound sales issue.

So, I manage a few Facebook pages for some real estate clients. They are constantly solicited, and yesterday I saw one that was just awful. But the company is reputable.

It was so bad, I wanted to walk into the home office and ask to speak to someone about it, hoping I could turn it into a sales opportunity. I researched the company. I researched the owner. I found his two other companies. I basically cyber stalked someone for 10 minutes.

You can tell how old school I am when, even though I run a digital marketing firm, my sales solution is to just walk in cold. I'm almost embarrassed to admit I was noodling a script in my head to make this happen. Every idea was just awful. Like "Can I speak to your manager" or "Does this crap really work for you guys" or "How does it feel to burn your marketing dollars this way"? Dale Carnegie's rolling over in his grave. But I also haven't done a cold call in over a decade.

Listening to this, even though it had nothing to do with cold sales calls, now I'm thinking this will be a perfect opportunity to make a loom video. Show the boss my screen and what he is wasting his marketing dollars on. Point out a few others things I noticed on his site that could be improved. Writing that script is so much more tactful. So much more helpful.

This will make me so much more efficient. I've always rejected the cold video prospecting route, much preferring referrals, but I think this idea really has legs beyond this one off.

Thanks Andy.

Oh, and I enjoy the lively discussion. But Brendan was wrong. I'm on team Andy for episode 7.
I do these Loom videos a lot for prospects I’ve spoken to. After the initial call I often say I’ll do a quick video to explain what I saw about their site or campaigns.

I know they can revisit that video a few times, and they can share it with other members of their team or company.

It’s quicker recording a Loom than creating a document with screenshots. And if they watch 5-10 mins then they’re showing they’re interested (in the content at least).
 
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My bad. Brendan published this episode weeks ago and I forgot to add it here.


Episode 8 - Sales for non-sales people

Today we’re chatting about why founders, creators, developers (and anyone that thinks they don't sell) should know how to sell.

In particular:
  • Why the right mindset is important.
  • How to get started selling.
  • Why you shouldn't wait.
Would love to know your takeaways.


EDIT: Created a separate thread in the forum and then linked to that. I think this one could help a lot of people in the forum.
 
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I was at a cousin's funeral a few weeks ago and went radio silent (ha) for a few weeks. No Twitter, no LinkedIn, no posts in a Circle(.)so forum I'm in, etc.

No chats with Brendan either, although to be fair he was visiting Hawaii and then Alaska.

Episode 9 was in the can and I've finally edited and added the intro/outro.

We'll get back into a weekly rhythm. The plan is to release a 15-20 min podcast each week.


Episode 9 - Selling at live events

Today we’re chatting about Selling at live events such as conferences, trade shows, and workshops.

In particular:
  • How relationships are built at the coffee dock or in the queue for lunch.
  • The big sin so many people make when introducing themselves and how to avoid it.
  • And what Brendan and Andy both get out of presenting live.
Would love to know your takeaways.
 
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Andy Black

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Just spotted a new review. If it's someone from the forum then thank you!

1631257961144.png
 
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Andy Black

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Episode 10 - Quit jobs properly

In this episode we chat about quitting jobs/contracts properly.

In particular:
  • Quitting a job to get another job.
  • How it's a small world.
  • Things to consider before quitting a job to start your own thing.

Curious what your takeaways are.

LetsChatSales.com/10
 
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alexkuzmov

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Episode 10 - Quit jobs properly

Not sure what to call this one.

It’s about quitting jobs or contracts. Why, when, and how.

Curious what your takeaways are.

LetsChatSales.com/10
Awesome work man, will listen to it, I`ve been listening to every Episode so far, just been a fly on the wall.
Until recently (last 2 months) I didnt have to look into sales, but now I do, so I`ve been down the path "Sales for techies" eversince.

One problem with helping that I`ve identified is the unwiligness of some people to have their problem solved for free.
Recent examples:
- A forum member (Bulgarian forum) has trouble getting his site up because a developer either doesnt know how, doesnt want to do it or is just busy with other stuff, long story. I offered to do it for free, since its no real trouble.
He said, oh yea sounds good, just lets wait for the developer to try a few more times, then you can have a crack at it. That was 3 weeks ago, the site is still down.
- A potential client (who I couldnt sell my service to) is a producer of ceramic stuff, cups, t-shirts, tents and some other things, lets call him P. After he declined I got to talking with a few other people who were interested in selling such things so I thought, why not connect them.
After all P had initially contacted me for setting up a E-commerce store and was interested in selling more of his products.
I contacted P. and explained that there are people interested in buying from him and selling in their already running shops, and he just said: "No thanks".
What gives? He still has no shop, he is a producer, its not like he has a limit on production.
 

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