You Don’t Have to be a Freelancer

[Antifragile]

Hey @Black_Dragon43 and @Kak you know one things politicians do when they are at their best?

Lead people to a peaceful outcome.

View attachment 47365



Seriously bro? It's not fair? What are you 12?

Let. This. Argument. Die.

Fox obviously didn't read your commentary where you actually provided actionable advice.

For somebody who claims to be anti-fragile, you sure do get prickly about the weirdest tiniest perceived slights. What's with that?



iS He AnY ClosEr To hIS DreAm?!?!

How do you like it when someone dismisses what you did?

See how my comment doesn't actually help anything. Like that's a terrible response to your action of trying to help give someone a leg up.

Instead of focusing on tearing each other down, how about we all focus on building each other up. And building up others?

Can you focus on edifying and building, Mr real estate developer?

We all have our roles to play on the forum. The lack of respect in this thread is just ridiculous.

Side note... That is a pretty cool story about the employee. Good for you.

Dude.

I’m enjoying this. Why don’t you just let me. i needed an outlet for some stuff …

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

He owns a candle manufacturing facility that does millions per year. He isn't likely to advocate freelancing.

Sorry MJ, I was sh*t posting - the thread was becoming very argumentative and he often adds a bit of "spice" to such discussions.

I had no freaking idea - that's incredible!!

 

[biophase]

Today there is very little legitimate interest in bigger things. There is frankly little interest in entrepreneurship in general. It’s all odd jobs, side hustles, freelancing and 100k a year dreams.

I think this is just due to many of the older and original forum posters moving on by being successful and getting older. Not many people who are doing big things are coming back to the forum to answer "beginner" questions.

The spirit of the forum has changed. I’m now unreasonable for thinking we should be helping others make bold moves instead of being a clapping seal when they decide to chase a $500 a month freelance gig. That mentality is not going to attract the real life changing helpfulness out of other entrepreneurs, and my patience for being "the unreasonable one," for sharing and encouraging the truth about how people actually build wealth, is waning.

The forum has changed because the big stuff info has moved to private forums or masterminds. You eventually get to a point where your "big" questions just cannot be answered by another random forum member. You are going to ask someone you know because 1) it's private info 2) it's very specific to you.

Now regarding the rest of the thread. I view freelancing as the first step. I don't think anyone here wants to be doing the low level work for the rest of their life. When I say low level, I mean it as the grunt work of the business. But even with that said, if the low level work pays enough, you can do it all you want. It's like a personal trainer, just training randoms every day for $100/hr without thought of what the business will look like in 5 years. But if he's training NBA players at $250k a year, then maybe he doesn't need to expand his business.

I also think it is unrealistic to tell someone at the beginning level to think bigger. At this level they have level 1 thinking, make money doing something with their time. Sometimes the dream big just glosses their eyes over and you just lose them. Believe me, alot of kids in college can't comprehend these seemingly complicated strategies. They seem to just think 1 or maybe 2 steps ahead.

I remember when I got my first job as an engineer. All I did was review plans. When I was done, I told my boss the plans were correct. He stamped them and then sent them to the client. I remember thinking, I don't want to do this grunt work forever, I want to eventually be the guy that just stamps the drawings. I didn't think, I want to own that company that hires the guy stamping the drawings. That came later as my views and thoughts expanded.

 

[Kak]

Hey @Black_Dragon43 and @Kak you know one things politicians do when they are at their best?

Lead people to a peaceful outcome.

I COMPLETELY disagree. Government is actually best at violence and specifically murder. Democide is a serious cause of death.

That said I do think I found a peaceful outcome. @MJ DeMarco’s post about defining freelancing hit me like a ton of bricks.

My hypothetical image of a freelancer is not a hustler, not someone with grit, it wasn’t someone willing to try difficult new things, and it wouldn’t ultimately lead to gained skill, knowledge or likely savings.

I was absolutely thinking of the average idiot, instead of being sewed into, being dismissed and tossed on to eLance or Upwork. Which enraged me every time I felt like I saw it.

I don’t define hustling to make ends meet and keeping time free to work on your real business “freelancing.” I call the giant race to the bottom doing one of the same 5-6 things that one point whatever billion people are evidently also competing over “freelancing.”

I completely disagree that freelancing, by my definition, is a good first step. It’s a garbage prostitution job.

However, if whatever you’re doing TRULY is producing grit, determination, sales skills, leadership skills, some savings, some confidence, and forcing you out of your comfort zone often, then I think it would be ridiculous not to call it a good stepping stone.

How’s that?

There’s a big caveat here though. I offered a long leash on this interpretation. There is a ton of room for people to lie to themselves about the experience they are gaining. They’ll have to convict themselves on that one.

I’m not suggesting someone start “just making more money now” I’m suggesting they consider the future growth of what they’re doing or where it leads.

To also be fair, I didn’t even start this thread. One of the mods moved my annoyed post to its own thread, but I’m fine to take an unpopular stance on something. Ultimately I was forced to defend my position. Ok. The biggest moves in business and life are made when you bet against the consensus, so I have rarely been one to shy away from what I believe is true even if it’s unpopular.

You still don’t have to be a freelancer. If you TRULY define your work as scalable, educational and a true personal growth opportunity, start calling yourself an entrepreneur.

 

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[Andy Black]

I COMPLETELY disagree. Government is actually best at violence and specifically murder. Democide is a serious cause of death.

That said I do think I found a peaceful outcome. @MJ DeMarco’s post about defining freelancing hit me like a ton of bricks.

My hypothetical image of a freelancer is not a hustler, not someone with grit, it wasn’t someone willing to try difficult new things, and it wouldn’t ultimately lead to gained skill, knowledge or likely savings.

I was absolutely thinking of the average idiot, instead of being sewed into, being dismissed and tossed on to eLance or Upwork. Which enraged me every time I felt like I saw it.

I don’t define hustling to make ends meet and keeping time free to work on your real business “freelancing.” I call the giant race to the bottom doing one of the same 5-6 things that one point whatever billion people are evidently also competing over “freelancing.”

I completely disagree that freelancing, by my definition, is a good first step. It’s a garbage prostitution job.

However, if whatever you’re doing TRULY is producing grit, determination, sales skills, leadership skills, some savings, some confidence, and forcing you out of your comfort zone often, then I think it would be ridiculous not to call it a good stepping stone.

How’s that?

There’s a big caveat here though. I offered a long leash on this interpretation. There is a ton of room for people to lie to themselves about the experience they are gaining. They’ll have to convict themselves on that one.

I’m not suggesting someone start “just making more money now” I’m suggesting they consider the future growth of what they’re doing or where it leads.

To also be fair, I didn’t even start this thread. One of the mods moved my annoyed post to its own thread, but I’m fine to take an unpopular stance on something. Ultimately I was forced to defend my position. Ok. The biggest moves in business and life are made when you bet against the consensus, so I have rarely been one to shy away from what I believe is true even if it’s unpopular.

You still don’t have to be a freelancer. If you TRULY define your work as scalable, educational and a true personal growth opportunity, start calling yourself an entrepreneur.

I've never used Upwork or Freelancer. I've never nudged people towards them either.

I don't really use the word "freelancing" when I help people in the forum, although I kinda consider myself a freelancer in that I'm a "gun-for-hire", even though I've a full-time developer in my team, and a couple of other part-time folks.

Folks hire Andy Black, the consultant/freelancer/self-employed specialist/practitioner/coal-face worker/whatever-the-feck-they-want-to-call-me. It's can be an advantage for prospects to see me as a freelancer vs an agency.

I figured a lot of the issue was due to what you and @Antifragile defined/saw a freelancer (or solopreneur) as.

Something I wrote back in 2018 on an old blog, and probably in the forum somewhere. Curious what everyone thinks of this, in particular you and @Antifragile:

 

[ninjacopywriter]

No you don't need a slap.

You don't have to start as a freelancer, that's true. But I wouldn't go bashing / reducing it's value to nothing either. It's like bashing somebody going to the gym and using machines instead of free-weights. At least they're going.

Copywriting may pay sweet F all, but that's not the point. Combine that skill with front end development, back end development, video production, voiceover artist, graphic design, book keeping and taxation, SEO and so on and you suddenly have all of the skills required to build tech startups from the ground up for $0 instead of expending $200-300,000+ before you get past the starting gate.

There's also nothing wrong with somebody who just wants to write a few blog posts or websites when they "feel like it", send invoices, and then get a villa by the beach overseas and have sex all day. That's a pretty nice way to live too, and in some cases could actually be better than building a startup, especially if the alternative requires bringing in VCs who own your a$$ in much the same way an employee is owned!

You should always be wary of others who project and/or make a living out of telling others how to live their lives. What the hell would they know about you, and why would they care? F*** everyone else. Go after what you want, use every tool and avenue available to do it, and go at your own pace with your own success metrics.

No you don't need a slap.

You don't have to start as a freelancer, that's true. But I wouldn't go bashing / reducing it's value to nothing either. It's like bashing somebody going to the gym and using machines instead of free-weights. At least they're going.

Copywriting may pay sweet F all, but that's not the point. Combine that skill with front end development, back end development, video production, voiceover artist, graphic design, book keeping and taxation, SEO and so on and you suddenly have all of the skills required to build tech startups from the ground up for $0 instead of expending $200-300,000+ before you get past the starting gate.

There's also nothing wrong with somebody who just wants to write a few blog posts or websites when they "feel like it", send invoices, and then get a villa by the beach overseas and have sex all day. That's a pretty nice way to live too, and in some cases could actually be better than building a startup, especially if the alternative requires bringing in VCs who own your a$$ in much the same way an employee is owned!

You should always be wary of others who project and/or make a living out of telling others how to live their lives. What the hell would they know about you, and why would they care? F*** everyone else. Go after what you want, use every tool and avenue available to do it, and go at your own pace with your own success metrics.

Thank you for taking the time to reply Damien I really appreciate it..i am in the reinvent myself phase after quitting my crypto marketing job last November...

 

[ninjacopywriter]

To make a good decision, explore all alternatives. Pick the best.

What one thing you could start doing now that would make your life better?

What will your life look like in 10 years if you keep doing what your are doing now on repeat? Will you be happy? Satisfied?

Good luck.

one of the advices i saw is: if you dont know what to do, just pick something... and im like ok, maybe i will just write online like many people have been doing...

 

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[Andy Black]

one of the advices i saw is: if you dont know what to do, just pick something... and im like ok, maybe i will just write online like many people have been doing...

"Pick something" and start. That's way ahead of most people.

"You can't steer a parked car." (James Schramko)

 

[ninjacopywriter]

Maybe I do. Back it up then. We can't just blindly accept your words as truth just because stone cold Kak said so.

If I am wrong, prove me (and numerous others) wrong. Educate me. I'll ask these same questions of you.




If you had to do it all over again, how would 18 year old you start a petro-chemical firm?

----

You guys have written so much text here about what NOT to do. How NOT to think.

Come on @Antifragile and @Kak display some actual wisdom on the things TO DO.

Because every other thread about getting started talks about starting somewhere, anywhere, and learn as you go. Those threads inspire action.

But you guys want to change that around and tell people to figure out what is best first.

You have already put the brakes on one budding entrepreneur in this thread.

You've literally inspired the bad.

But ok. I'm in. Start with the best for me. How?

300+ radio shows about killing bigger and you can't write one paragraph about how to start with the best?



These guys are saying start with what is best for you. You get to decide that, not them. If freelancing is the next step that makes sense to you, go for it and anyone who tells you otherwise can jump off a bridge.

Seriously, there are people who start their careers by folding blankets in hotel rooms, and they still become millionaires.

I'm not saying you should go fold blankets, I'm saying the only things that can stop you are you and death.

I hope you've already taken action on the freelancing.

I am..i already started a newsletter, wrote a medium article, changed my writing portfolio and have been in touch with...a crypto recruiter now..but omg need to leave crypto ASAP ...for now I might have a shot at that, since my resume is all tailored to crypto.

 

[Andy Black]

I am..i already started a newsletter, wrote a medium article, changed my writing portfolio and have been in touch with...a crypto recruiter now..but omg need to leave crypto ASAP ...for now I might have a shot at that, since my resume is all tailored to crypto.

Start a progress thread if you haven't. Folks can hop in and add their 2c.

 

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[ninjacopywriter]

Start a progress thread if you haven't. Folks can hop in and add their 2c.

thank you Andy

 

[kommen]

Speaking of mistakes... if you truly want to make a big mistake for your first entrepreneurial action, join an MLM.

Speaking about MLM, a couple weeks ago I joined one because I mistakenly thought it was a part time job... Lmao

When the dude interviewed me and asked me about my goals, I told him about how I like to slip questions to people to get a picture of what they need, want or struggle with in a particular neighborhood and offer a solution to help them.

Then the guy interrupted me with his big mouth and and soy face while saying "OOOHH So like a market researcher! But YOU NEED FUNDING for that! You need a car to go to town A and you need to hire a research team to make a survey and this and that and this and that..." Apparently you need $10k to understand someone's problems.

The worst part is how the people on the bottom of the MLM are calling it "business". They told me "You came here to do BUSINESS because you want to be financially FREE and be YOUR OWN boss here"

 

[Antifragile]

I've never used Upwork or Freelancer. I've never nudged people towards them either.

I don't really use the word "freelancing" when I help people in the forum, although I kinda consider myself a freelancer in that I'm a "gun-for-hire", even though I've a full-time developer in my team, and a couple of other part-time folks. Folks hire Andy Black, the consultant/freelancer/self-employed specialist/practitioner/coal-face worker/whatever-the-feck-they-want-to-call-me. It's can be an advantage for prospects to see me as a freelancer vs an agency.

I figured a lot of the issue was due to what you and @Antifragile defined/saw a freelancer (or solopreneur) as.

Something I wrote back in 2018 on an old blog, and probably in the forum somewhere. Curious what everyone thinks of this, in particular you and @Antifragile:

View attachment 47372

Funny thing is I always thought you were a great example of what to do Andy.

My issue is broader: a young person with no experience coming here all pumped to become the next fastlane success. Sees a lot of freelance threads and gets “locked in” without knowing there are alternatives.

And to address @Fox request to teach such members, I refer them back to MJs books. Having invested thousands of yours into them… they are great! The rest of us… what good would adding some magic wisdom with a new and unsolicited thread do? I’m not a life/business coach. I don’t have some prepared materials.

 

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[JordanK]

Lots of interesting perspectives in this thread. As someone who transitioned from a "freelancer" to a more traditional business (Real Estate) I can see merit in both arguments.

To address the current economic climate that is leading to an increase in the number of people aspiring to be freelancers and/or entrepreneurs in the Western/English speaking world. I believe it comes down to a few key things that have changed in recent years.

- The Changing Jobs Market: Many of our parents had jobs for life with reasonably good pay/benefits and job security. Sure many people spent a few years in the wilderness in their 20's but most eventually locked down a good job that suited their circumstances. With this income they went on to purchase houses, cars, foreign holidays, fund pensions and generally improved their standard of living. Nowadays there is a lot less "loyalty" in organizations going both ways. People freely move between jobs every 1-2 years, the benefits usually aren't great hence why many younger workers are referred to here in Ireland/UK as "yellow packs" their contracts are significantly worse than the ones many of their older peers were on at similar ages. These average jobs don't provide the same purchasing power for young people to buy the same assets that their parents did at similar ages.

- The Housing Market: In my city if you want to rent a bedroom within a shared house you are looking at 600-700 monthly before bills. This was only 300-350 as recently as 2014. The minimum wage was 9.15 per hour in 2014 and is 11.50 in 2023.
In 1990 the average income per year to home price ratio in Ireland was 4 it is now 8. Young people and college students are spending up to and above half their income on housing.

- The Instagram Effect: Jumping on social media right now as a 25 year old in my city is pretty crazy. Hundreds of my friends are emigrating to Australia where wages are higher, the weather is better and while the cost of living is also high there... their money goes further and gets them a better standard of living. Many of my other friends have become digital nomads.. they have given up on a 9-5 job, college degree career path and the ambition of owning a home for the moment. Instead they've jumped on the bandwagon and gotten a freelancing job earning them 2-4k per month and are traveling around the globe. Their Instagram feeds look dope and they are living a much cooler lifestyle than a soul destroying mediocre existence in this country. People are watching what there friends are doing and thinking to themselves... why can't I do that... alongside the absolute overflow of information & courses promoting all these type of businesses.

- The Lockdown Effect: Many people never considered remote working as a possibility for them pre-lockdown. Suddenly all the jobs that could transitioned online. These people built new habits around their remote working lifestyle at home and now either demand that there current job keep these or they wish to travel with it by moving into freelancing. A lot of the job roles they have been trained into by there corporate employers are transmissible to freelancing.



The old social contract is over. It's a new playing field and people are discovering that in their millions. People raged on this forum about college for years and the truth is finally being discovered by the masses on that too. It is a time of great change.

Many of these new age "entrepreneurs" don't seek the same freedom many of us do. Or maybe they do superficially but deep down they are really only looking for something that offers them the same standard of living that their parents had or to travel. They cap out at 5k per month and are generally happy with that as it provides them the life they really want without struggling to get by each month or having to beg there 12 euro an hour boss to let them take some time off to go on vacation.



For my own personal story. I read MJ's book when I was 13 and always had a small side hustle business going throughout school. When I went to college my parents were still broke as a result of the 2008 recession and all their investment properties getting foreclosed on. For the first year I lived in a box bedroom in my aunts house in the college city. I did no foreign travel with friends this year, missed out on most of the traditional college experience and struggled to pay tuition. When I asked my parents to support me renting a room in a house with my friends for year two of college they told me they could only afford to give me 200 a month towards rent, bills and food. My rent was 550, bills another 100 and probably 150-200 for food/partying/misc. I went looking for a business that could provide me instant cashflow while also allowing me time to study.

At the time I had been friendly here on the forum with @Fox. Him and Andy were the only two Irish guys I knew on here. Fox was beginning to make decent money to pay for all his living expenses in Colombia where he was living and by the time he came back to Ireland to visit he was killing it with a few major 10k projects. I was driving by his parents town where he was staying while I was on the way to college one day. I sent him a message and we met up. As an 18 year old dude at the time, this was the first other Irish person of similar age that I had met that was living life on his own terms. Sure I'd read the book and listened to a bunch of you American guys on the forum but here was Fox... someone from a similar background to me doing it. I left his house that day with a newfound confidence that entrepreneurship was right for me.

Fast forward a little bit... I crashed out completely after 2 months of "trying" to sell web design to companies in the US. However... I learned a lot of solid lessons about cold calling, client management, time management, setting my own schedule of work, billing/invoicing etc etc... Lex's thread here on the forum caught my eye and I went into copywriting. Armed with the previous experience I fared much better and within a few months of upskilling/working I was having 5k months. I COULD PAY THE RENT! Pay for college, run a vehicle, go on multiple foreign trips with friends, go to restaurants, party and still save money! Wow...

but I knew this was only the beginning for me.

It was super hard work prospecting all the time, grinding workloads, occasional bad clients, working off the US time-zones while living in Ireland. While I was a decent copywriter who went above and beyond for clients I knew it wasn't my calling... I wasn't a top 1% talent in this field who loved this profession... it was a means to an end.

So I did what in hindsight was the best decision I ever made... I pivoted into Real Estate where I could speak the language and had prior experience from the fact I grew up around it as a kid when my Dad was heavy invested before he lost most of it. By chance I happened to meet a big Real Estate Investor here in the city and I provided value for him, done a tonne of grunt work mostly for free (He bought me food, beers and occasionally gave me 50-100 at the end of the week if it was particularly hard work) while I spent hours and hours learning from him. Outside of the time needed for college and freelancing work I was with him. Suddenly, in year two a few key members of his team left and I started filling in and soon enough I'd left college, closed down the copywriting business and was doing contract work for him full time. The dynamic switched and now he was providing tonnes of work opportunities above and beyond my level/pay at the time because we'd been in the trenches together... his business was now doing really well. I still do lots of work for him, I have partnered with him on his deals, he's supported some of my deals.. I have other business partners who I work with too now and I'v been fully self employed for 4 years with this business.

I couldn't have dedicated that free first year of learning in the Real Estate field without freelancing. I also wouldn't have known a bunch of different business processes or methods that made me an asset to a business owner like my mentor without my trials & errors during freelancing.

I'm not as active here on the forum as I have great friends from here, the summit and people within the profession who can keep me on the right track/provide good advice. The Real Estate market is significantly different here in Ireland to the UK, USA, Canada or any other country so the help that can be provided is limited. I also feel that a lot of my learning's wouldn't be relevant to a US audience. Also, most of the people I work with are super super private.. like above and beyond private with their dealings so I'd be limited in what I could post anyways.

I'm looking forward to scaling up my business a lot further so I can do more deals by myself (that I can post about), increase my earnings etc..

Ok enough rambling... I think the story is a pretty cool explainer for how those of us who want to go further will always find or at a minimum, seek a way.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

I COMPLETELY disagree. Government is actually best at violence and specifically murder. Democide is a serious cause of death.

That said I do think I found a peaceful outcome. @MJ DeMarco’s post about defining freelancing hit me like a ton of bricks.

My hypothetical image of a freelancer is not a hustler, not someone with grit, it wasn’t someone willing to try difficult new things, and it wouldn’t ultimately lead to gained skill, knowledge or likely savings.

I was absolutely thinking of the average idiot, instead of being sewed into, being dismissed and tossed on to eLance or Upwork. Which enraged me every time I felt like I saw it.

I don’t define hustling to make ends meet and keeping time free to work on your real business “freelancing.” I call the giant race to the bottom doing one of the same 5-6 things that one point whatever billion people are evidently also competing over “freelancing.”

I completely disagree that freelancing, by my definition, is a good first step. It’s a garbage prostitution job.

However, if whatever you’re doing TRULY is producing grit, determination, sales skills, leadership skills, some savings, some confidence, and forcing you out of your comfort zone often, then I think it would be ridiculous not to call it a good stepping stone.

How’s that?

There’s a big caveat here though. I offered a long leash on this interpretation. There is a ton of room for people to lie to themselves about the experience they are gaining. They’ll have to convict themselves on that one.

I’m not suggesting someone start “just making more money now” I’m suggesting they consider the future growth of what they’re doing or where it leads.

To also be fair, I didn’t even start this thread. One of the mods moved my annoyed post to its own thread, but I’m fine to take an unpopular stance on something. Ultimately I was forced to defend my position. Ok. The biggest moves in business and life are made when you bet against the consensus, so I have rarely been one to shy away from what I believe is true even if it’s unpopular.

You still don’t have to be a freelancer. If you TRULY define your work as scalable, educational and a true personal growth opportunity, start calling yourself an entrepreneur.

Well done. I think that’s a really good post and explanation man. I’ve had one of my posts moved into its own thread like this before and it got ugly too, lol
I see where you are coming from. I see the stepping stone too. It all makes sense!

It really depends on the person, if they are smart, and if they are someone who can grow or not.

 

[Andy Black]

FWIW... my old blog. I may start posting to it again.

• FreelanceAndBeyond

 

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[BizyDad]

You guys got me fired up. I might have to start posting new threads again. Here's one I've been meaning to write for a while. Hopefully it helps someone who's looking to go from freelance to agency to portfolio business owner.

MINDSET - How Marketing Agency Owners Chase Thousands and Ignore Millions

I've been wanting to write this post for a while. I thought I might call it the biggest mistake marketing agency owners make. Before we get to the good stuff, I have a bone to pick with marketing agencies. If you run the kind of marketing agency where you take a client's money, but you...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

This is my favorite part.

People worry so much about what business they should start.

Imagine having a business model where you can acquire an existing, established money making business and you could see the back end, the guts of the business for years already so you know what you're buying.

People think that buying businesses is risky.

Does this sound risky to you?

Lots of interesting perspectives in this thread. As someone who transitioned from a "freelancer" to a more traditional business (Real Estate) I can see merit in both arguments.

To address the current economic climate that is leading to an increase in the number of people aspiring to be freelancers and/or entrepreneurs in the Western/English speaking world. I believe it comes down to a few key things that have changed in recent years.

- The Changing Jobs Market: Many of our parents had jobs for life with reasonably good pay/benefits and job security. Sure many people spent a few years in the wilderness in their 20's but most eventually locked down a good job that suited their circumstances. With this income they went on to purchase houses, cars, foreign holidays, fund pensions and generally improved their standard of living. Nowadays there is a lot less "loyalty" in organizations going both ways. People freely move between jobs every 1-2 years, the benefits usually aren't great hence why many younger workers are referred to here in Ireland/UK as "yellow packs" their contracts are significantly worse than the ones many of their older peers were on at similar ages. These average jobs don't provide the same purchasing power for young people to buy the same assets that their parents did at similar ages.

- The Housing Market: In my city if you want to rent a bedroom within a shared house you are looking at 600-700 monthly before bills. This was only 300-350 as recently as 2014. The minimum wage was 9.15 per hour in 2014 and is 11.50 in 2023.
In 1990 the average income per year to home price ratio in Ireland was 4 it is now 8. Young people and college students are spending up to and above half their income on housing.

- The Instagram Effect: Jumping on social media right now as a 25 year old in my city is pretty crazy. Hundreds of my friends are emigrating to Australia where wages are higher, the weather is better and while the cost of living is also high there... their money goes further and gets them a better standard of living. Many of my other friends have become digital nomads.. they have given up on a 9-5 job, college degree career path and the ambition of owning a home for the moment. Instead they've jumped on the bandwagon and gotten a freelancing job earning them 2-4k per month and are traveling around the globe. Their Instagram feeds look dope and they are living a much cooler lifestyle than a soul destroying mediocre existence in this country. People are watching what there friends are doing and thinking to themselves... why can't I do that... alongside the absolute overflow of information & courses promoting all these type of businesses.

- The Lockdown Effect: Many people never considered remote working as a possibility for them pre-lockdown. Suddenly all the jobs that could transitioned online. These people built new habits around their remote working lifestyle at home and now either demand that there current job keep these or they wish to travel with it by moving into freelancing. A lot of the job roles they have been trained into by there corporate employers are transmissible to freelancing.



The old social contract is over. It's a new playing field and people are discovering that in their millions. People raged on this forum about college for years and the truth is finally being discovered by the masses on that too. It is a time of great change.

Many of these new age "entrepreneurs" don't seek the same freedom many of us do. Or maybe they do superficially but deep down they are really only looking for something that offers them the same standard of living that their parents had or to travel. They cap out at 5k per month and are generally happy with that as it provides them the life they really want without struggling to get by each month or having to beg there 12 euro an hour boss to let them take some time off to go on vacation.



For my own personal story. I read MJ's book when I was 13 and always had a small side hustle business going throughout school. When I went to college my parents were still broke as a result of the 2008 recession and all their investment properties getting foreclosed on. For the first year I lived in a box bedroom in my aunts house in the college city. I did no foreign travel with friends this year, missed out on most of the traditional college experience and struggled to pay tuition. When I asked my parents to support me renting a room in a house with my friends for year two of college they told me they could only afford to give me 200 a month towards rent, bills and food. My rent was 550, bills another 100 and probably 150-200 for food/partying/misc. I went looking for a business that could provide me instant cashflow while also allowing me time to study.

At the time I had been friendly here on the forum with @Fox. Him and Andy were the only two Irish guys I knew on here. Fox was beginning to make decent money to pay for all his living expenses in Colombia where he was living and by the time he came back to Ireland to visit he was killing it with a few major 10k projects. I was driving by his parents town where he was staying while I was on the way to college one day. I sent him a message and we met up. As an 18 year old dude at the time, this was the first other Irish person of similar age that I had met that was living life on his own terms. Sure I'd read the book and listened to a bunch of you American guys on the forum but here was Fox... someone from a similar background to me doing it. I left his house that day with a newfound confidence that entrepreneurship was right for me.

Fast forward a little bit... I crashed out completely after 2 months of "trying" to sell web design to companies in the US. However... I learned a lot of solid lessons about cold calling, client management, time management, setting my own schedule of work, billing/invoicing etc etc... Lex's thread here on the forum caught my eye and I went into copywriting. Armed with the previous experience I fared much better and within a few months of upskilling/working I was having 5k months. I COULD PAY THE RENT! Pay for college, run a vehicle, go on multiple foreign trips with friends, go to restaurants, party and still save money! Wow...

but I knew this was only the beginning for me.

It was super hard work prospecting all the time, grinding workloads, occasional bad clients, working off the US time-zones while living in Ireland. While I was a decent copywriter who went above and beyond for clients I knew it wasn't my calling... I wasn't a top 1% talent in this field who loved this profession... it was a means to an end.

So I did what in hindsight was the best decision I ever made... I pivoted into Real Estate where I could speak the language and had prior experience from the fact I grew up around it as a kid when my Dad was heavy invested before he lost most of it. By chance I happened to meet a big Real Estate Investor here in the city and I provided value for him, done a tonne of grunt work mostly for free (He bought me food, beers and occasionally gave me 50-100 at the end of the week if it was particularly hard work) while I spent hours and hours learning from him. Outside of the time needed for college and freelancing work I was with him. Suddenly, in year two a few key members of his team left and I started filling in and soon enough I'd left college, closed down the copywriting business and was doing contract work for him full time. The dynamic switched and now he was providing tonnes of work opportunities above and beyond my level/pay at the time because we'd been in the trenches together... his business was now doing really well. I still do lots of work for him, I have partnered with him on his deals, he's supported some of my deals.. I have other business partners who I work with too now and I'v been fully self employed for 4 years with this business.

I couldn't have dedicated that free first year of learning in the Real Estate field without freelancing. I also wouldn't have known a bunch of different business processes or methods that made me an asset to a business owner like my mentor without my trials & errors during freelancing.

I'm not as active here on the forum as I have great friends from here, the summit and people within the profession who can keep me on the right track/provide good advice. The Real Estate market is significantly different here in Ireland to the UK, USA, Canada or any other country so the help that can be provided is limited. I also feel that a lot of my learning's wouldn't be relevant to a US audience. Also, most of the people I work with are super super private.. like above and beyond private with their dealings so I'd be limited in what I could post anyways.

I'm looking forward to scaling up my business a lot further so I can do more deals by myself (that I can post about), increase my earnings etc..

Ok enough rambling... I think the story is a pretty cool explainer for how those of us who want to go further will always find or at a minimum, seek a way.

Great stuff man. Just goes to show there's lots of ways to step up your game when you start as a freelancer.

 

[ninjacopywriter]

You guys got me fired up. I might have to start posting new threads again. Here's one I've been meaning to write for a while. Hopefully it helps someone who's looking to go from freelance to agency to business owner.

MINDSET - How Marketing Agency Owners Chase Thousands and Ignore Millions

I've been wanting to write this post for a while. I thought I might call it the biggest mistake marketing agency owners make. Before we get to the good stuff, I have a bone to pick with marketing agencies. If you run the kind of marketing agency where you take a client's money, but you...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

This is my favorite part.

People worry so much about what business they should start.

Imagine having a business model where you can acquire an existing, established money making business and you could see the back end, the guts of the business for years already so you know what you're buying.

People think that buying businesses is risky.

Does this sound risky to you?



Great stuff man. Just goes to show there's lots of ways to step up your game when you start as a freelancer.

I am going to check that out too..

and yes, it does sound risky haha (though first, i personally need cashflow).

One person that I'm sure you are aware and that introduced me to this idea was actually Codie Sanchez. She's a great marketer hehe I read one newsletter saying the way she got more subscribers was via TIKTOK! That's how people signed up for her newsletter and are learning about boring biz...

I am super interested in this path of freelance to agency to business owner...

The guy who is very convicing (i replied to this in another thread today) was Iman Gazdhi or something. BUT, someone was smart enough to point out the guy is NOT an agency owner, but an YouTuber and he was just smart to build a personal brand.. oh man..and now he is using the Andrew Tate strategy to grow and it's working.

 

[Andy Black]

I am going to check that out too..

and yes, it does sound risky haha (though first, i personally need cashflow).

One person that I'm sure you are aware and that introduced me to this idea was actually Codie Sanchez. She's a great marketer hehe I read one newsletter saying the way she got more subscribers was via TIKTOK! That's how people signed up for her newsletter and are learning about boring biz...

I am super interested in this path of freelance to agency to business owner...

The guy who is very convicing (i replied to this in another thread today) was Iman Gazdhi or something. BUT, someone was smart enough to point out the guy is NOT an agency owner, but an YouTuber and he was just smart to build a personal brand.. oh man..and now he is using the Andrew Tate strategy to grow and it's working.

I always point people to TMBA 227: The Rise Of Productized Services | Tropical MBA

 

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[NeoDialectic]

Thank you for this.


How is advice good for big businesses inconsistent with what this forum should stand for as a whole?
The issue I still have is that there are more young adults here getting the wrong impression. Meaning (and I am glad @BizyDad agreed already that we aren't far apart) for most people copywriting is a bad F*cking idea. For the 1% that should do it, there are plenty of resources here already.

This leads me to my question back to you. You say "no one acted on my advice" but if it was right advice, why does that matter? Why would you lower your bar, your standards? Is it to ensure you convince one more person to just quit their job? What's the end game for them if they can't even listen to an experienced person with "right" advice (however you define it)?



Isn't now this mental gymnastics to justify lowering your own standards?
I read it as "sorry brother, I was going to tell you what to do but I think you are not going to listen. Instead of giving you everything I know, I'll dumb it down to ensure you at least do something because let's face it, you are an idiot like the rest of them who just won't listen". Did I get that right?

Sounds horrible. And worst of all - what is "effective" about your watered down advice?



Your intent is good, your words are saying "the right things" and we disagree. I don't see the distinction between what is good advice and advice they will follow. With my posts, I assume it is on the reader to be motivated to do something already. I assume that just because you are 20 doesn't mean you are a moron who need ME to decide what advice YOU are going to follow and start watering down my help.



I like where you are going with this. As it highlights how you and I think differently.
This is a forum based on massively successful books attracting self-driven and hungry people. So when you say "first group of people are rare and aren't coming on here asking if they should pick up copywriting" I disagree. I'd like to think that it takes self-drive and hunger to read books and then join this place. Otherwise isn't this just a damn reddit?



If you are right about that... it's sad. You are giving no benefit of doubt to the younger generation and if you are right, it is sad.



I'll come back to that later. Suffice to say that no one here is telling an unmotivated, dependent, no experience 20 y/o to start a billion dollar enterprise.



Seems like with @BizyDad we aren't as far apart, the differences are nuanced. Your view is that it is up to YOU to make that distinction. YOU are the judge on what advice someone will or will not follow. That is a problem.

But we all agree that life is a roller-coaster. Success is a string of good decisions moving you forward. It starts small and like snowball, you get better and your abilities get bigger etc. It is not up to me to judge who will follow good advice and lower my own "advice standards" for those who I think won't.

And that's the crux of this. You keep referencing "I give a lot of advice" and you now have a feedback loop as a consultant/coach for people. I am just a business guy. I try to help, sometimes here, other times when volunteer etc. But I don't have the follow up and I may be wrong. But that's kind of my thing, I am not after trying to get 99% to convert from future / present employee to a freelancer.

I am after the 1% who'd get there anyway but needs good advice to get there faster.



I guess we agree on some things but on the biggest item, in a big picture we disagree and that's ok. That's probably what makes this thread valuable. A lively debate.

Agree:
- all of us had a roller coaster ride before any semblance of success
- due to this up & down, action > inaction
- some people, no matter what you tell them, will do F*ck all
- success is cumulative, actionable steps

Disagree:
- motivation is not rare. we are all motivated and if someone isn't - you aren't succeeding in freelance nor any business (big or small). I am not the one to judge and water down my advice because I think someone won't follow my best advice.
- giving advice "think bigger" isn't bad, brother, it's a great advice. Seriously. Imagine your exit number, say it's $50MM and give yourself 10 years to get there. Then cut that time in 10 and I promise you two things:
1. You won't hit it in one year
2. You will discover things, ways and ideas that will make you hit that $50MM number way, way sooner.
Conclusion: thinking bigger is good! Don't be a F*cking idiot either, and know the difference between pie in the sky dreaming and reality. But use tools at your disposal to propel yourself. It widens your field of options way outside your typical comfort zone. Whether you are starting out or have a mid level business, this exercise is helpful.

This is a forum for people who must be at least partly committed to becoming thriving entrepreneurs. Have faith in them.

So... where does that leave us?

I stand behind my advice:

Tinker, experiment, listen to the feedback. Come up with 100 ideas on how you could make some money. DO NOT narrow your vision to "I must have an internet business" and get saddled with being a "copywriter" making no money. There is a world of opportunities out there. I can't walk a mile in any city without seeing something that could make money. And if you are still stuck, let's talk here and brainstorm.



The reason I keep telling people not to become copywriters is because I personally hired a few of them in 2022. It's become a "promise land of opportunity" but in fact is a horrible idea preventing young people from using their creativity to generate better ideas. This thread accomplishes my goal perfectly, it makes people pause and think.

And as a next step, 100% agree with you, we need to shift conversation back into gear. Focus on what to do, how to do it better.

This is a good example:
How to start an entrepreneurial business with little money and no skills

I'm not sure how the miscommunication happened, but no one is suggesting telling people that they can't do something or that they should give up. If they ask for advice on how to start a business, I give them advice on starting a business. You are viewing my definition of "giving as close to the right advice as they will act on" as being, "I could have told you to go build a business, but since you look like a chump, you should just go freelance." That is not at all what I meant.

Even @Fox (who as you said has incentives to be pro-freelance) has often clarified that he is not suggesting that anyone STOPS at freelancing. It may be the end result for some, but it can be an important stepping stone for others.

What I am actually suggesting is that the advice meets them where they are RIGHT NOW. A metaphor - If we advise people on how to get to NYC, I think giving them the coordinates and a pat on the back is ineffective. When I say we agree on the "right" advice, I mean that we agree on NYC's coordinates. But I think people starting in LA or MIA need two different pieces of advice to get them closer to NYC. Giving them a direction and coordinates ain't going to cut it if they haven't learned the skills of using a map. They end up hitting the first wall and quitting.

To drive the point home... Here is a recent piece of advice I provided. Someone asked which item they should start drop shipping. The essence of my reply is to forget dropshipping and make your own product. That's me literally saying they should THINK BIGGER, as you would say. I don't think that was a good response. I didn't have my "best advice" hat on, and @BizyDad caught it. I should have said, "If you have never sold anything before and are excited to try it out, go ahead and try dropshipping. Just keep in mind that it has a lot of limitations, and you should aim to sell your own custom products as soon as possible. Don't waste time running in circles, though. Do your due diligence as quickly as you can and pull the trigger. Get moving.".

Here is my advice for someone wanting to start a web design company where my advice can be viewed as THINK SMALLER. I see someone that is focused on all the sexy big steps of creating a business, getting dopamine by completing those, and then quitting when the most important part comes up. My advice to him is to stop wasting time and overwhelming himself with all the aspects of building a business and just start selling his service ASAP. Get a client and start making a website. Is my advice selling him short and giving him no benefit of the doubt? Should I have told him to stop thinking so small and he should instead hire 20 designers right away to make a big web design hub? Or am I recognizing a pattern and giving him a roadmap with a higher chance of success?

On the other hand, Here is someone that has clients and is having trouble scaling. I think I give him decent advice on his options and press him to THINK BIGGER by promising more aggressively and working as hard as he can to meet those promises. Same genre (freelance type work)... But different situation = different advice.

I know you have seen a lot of my threads. Admittedly, I don't have the experience of running as big of a business (employee and investment-wise) as you, which limits some of the advice I could give. Still, I don't think I give off a "don't open a business, freelance instead" vibe. All my main threads are on either providing motivation, a sense of urgency, the tools, or the literal step-by-step on creating your own business. But if someone comes here with zero skills & experience and wants to try web design.....instead of shaming them, I try to tell them it's a decent start to get some skills and learn how to sell. But they shouldn't think it is fastlane and should be a means to an end.

Does that clarify my position?

 

[fastlane_dad]

I don’t have much to add to this thread as many points, arguments and counterarguments have been discussed.

Many valid objective points have been brought up by @MJ DeMarco , @Fox, @BizyDad, @NeoDialectic, @biophase, @Andy Black and others which I tend to heavily agree with.

Many of the suggestions, advice and solutions are sometimes nuanced to ANY question or problem, and you might not know what would work with the person well, or get them closer to where they ACTUALLY want to be unless they stick their fingers in the boiler and learn from that.

I love the fact that we DO have such an array of perspectives, values and opinions on these boards because frankly – that’s what a newb should be contemplating and looking at ALL of the pros and cons of every decision they make (and risks associated with them).

The only thing I will add is IMHO the reason we’re seeing more of these so called ‘freelancing’ posts, discussions etc is just the current state of the world and the economy. It’s the trending ‘it’ thing of the day.

Much content is moving online, to the ‘creator’ and ‘influencer’ side. With that comes a slew of people that need to SUPPORT that economy. As someone who started dabbling in the creative ‘content creator’ space – I’m already thinking of ‘freelancers’ that can help expedite my success and ease up some of the heavy load that might come with this type of work (video editing for example).

The beauty of this ‘new’ space is that people literally from ANY part of the world can do this or start this, work remote, work on their own schedule, learn to produce great work, build up a portfolio --- AND expand into other avenues if this eventually doesn’t serve them well. All you many times need is a strong drive, a computer and few pieces of software. Hey – I GET the appeal.

Yes - it's far from Fastlane, and all CENTS commandments - BUT there was a period of life I sold baseball cards on eBay, dabbled in MLM marketing/sales, advertised affiliate links and sold CUTCO cutlery. None of those were fastlane either, but brought me closer to understanding CENTS and eventually putting pieces together in understanding what I needed to do to bring me closer to such. I couldn't have skipped many of these lessons, and learned an incredible amount in all of my successful and 'failed' approaches of prior days.

Not everyone needs a 7 figure business to make life work for them. Not everyone needs to always 'think bigger'. @NeoDialectic and I love the startup phase of a business - not so much expanding it from 8 to a 10 figure operation and what that would involve.

MJ’s books bring in and inspire people from ALL walks of life, parts of the world, and reasons they are dissatisfied in their current gig. IMHO this forum is many times a first step outside the walls they currently know and built around them – and are looking for ways out.

Great thread, and I love seeing various opinions and great minds think DIFFERENT on this forum. That’s one of the reasons I come to get opinions and inputs on a collective board VS. consulting one or two ‘smart’ people in my circle.

Anyways – carry on!

 

[Black_Dragon43]

For somebody who claims to be anti-fragile

He has the thinnest skin I’ve ever met…

I have to triple check what I say when I’m around him. Last time he blocked me actually…

 

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[Kak]

He has the thinnest skin I’ve ever met…

I have to triple check what I say when I’m around him. Last time he blocked me actually…

Anything else to brilliantly add? Or are we just dogging an awesome entrepreneur now?

You freelancers love to make this place feel welcome to actual entrepreneurs who ironically believe in you more than you believe in yourselves.

“A wise man can look ridiculous in the presence of fools.”

 

[BizyDad]

Or are we just dogging an awesome entrepreneur now?

Really? I'm still here. And I'll dog him if the shoe fits. Antifragile's "Ignore List" is legendary.

1. You dogged a TON of people in this thread. You pissed off Fox bro. You dogged Fox and Andy Black.
2. If AF can't take it, he shouldn't dish it out. I have a lot of respect for what he has accomplished, I don't know him but I believe I respect him as a person. But the man called me dumb @Kak . You know I ain't dumb. Did you jump to my defense? No. You explained his attack away as a non attack.

Child please. Take the rose colored glasses off bro. Its funny that you have to defend him.

 

[Kak]

1. You dogged a TON of people in this thread. You pissed off Fox bro. You dogged Fox and Andy Black.

You still don’t get the irony do you?

We were the only ones telling people that we viewed as settling that they are capable of more. To strive for better. That it’s available to them. That they can and should raise their expectations of what they can accomplish.

Somehow, fighting for people to chase their actual dreams and encouraging a level of boldness makes us “assholes.”

I respect Andy and consider him a friend.

I respect Fox as well, as a good entrepreneur providing a work for yourself easy button that is clearly serving a hungry market.

Do I think half or more of an entrepreneur forum should be flocking to eLance and upwork? No. I’ll dog that all day long.

I never called either one of them out. I think @Fox took more direct offense, but honestly I believe he’s churning out incredibly more effective people than peanut gallery advice coming from people marking $100 dollars a week. I even was happy with his early contributions to this thread.

So you’re off base.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

Side bar update: that kid that reached out, he’ll be joining our team. Went through 5 interviews and nailed it.

Just a job?? You mean the kid hasn’t started a 7 or 8 figure real estate development company already?!

I jest of course but it is in the spirit of this thread. Everything is a process. Congrats on helping him though, that is awesome.

 

[Kak]

Just a job?? You mean the kid hasn’t started a 7 or 8 figure real estate development company already?!

I jest of course but it is in the spirit of this thread. Everything is a process. Congrats on helping him though, that is awesome.

Anyone who thinks that is what the spirit of this thread is missed the point entirely.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Anything else to brilliantly add? Or are we just dogging an awesome entrepreneur now?

You freelancers love to make this place feel welcome to actual entrepreneurs who ironically believe in you more than you believe in yourselves.

Funny, I’m not a freelancer!

(And it was a JOKE)

 

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[Inventor001]

Hello, here's the first post of my progress thread:

Hi, I'm 16 years old, I have learned HTML, CSS and halfway through learning JavaScript. My strategy is to first go on Upwork and earn some money as a front-end web developer. Then invest money which I have earned into Fox's web school and a copywriting course. Then launching my web designing agency and also creating another enterprise applied to C.E.N.T.S

To be continued.

I agree with @Kak
It's been a while since I started this progress thread. It made sense when I first wrote it. But now I see a better way. I can get funding from my family and friends. I need to look for problems to solve, do some validation, and then launch and learn the skills and knowledge required as I execute. There is no need to be a freelancer first.

 

[Nodus]

I think we get a lot of "copywriting / freelance!" posts here because we get a lot of "I have no money and no skills" posts here. As such, freelancing is viewed as more high value in terms of skill creation and money versus working at Burger King for $15/hour.

Giving a choice, I'd rather freelance 6 hours and make $600 than work 40 hours at Burger King for the same amount.

Hard work as a freelancer might yield personal benefits too (selling yourself, deadlines, discipline) while flipping burgers likely won't.

Most people, especially outside of Western countries have to deal with the reality of having ZERO money, and jobs in their countries don't pay $15/hour, but $5/hour.

Its more of $5/DAY in most parts of Africa, $15/DAY is a salary for senior managers and mid to upper levels of corporate or government jobs, When I was a practicing doctor (General practitioner) my monthly income was around $650 per month before tax.