You Don’t Have to be a Freelancer

[DCG]

By default I recommend freelancing to people new to business. They get paid to get good at a skill, at selling that skill, and to rub shoulders with business owners if their service is B2B.

I've never recommended copywriting though as I think (guess) it's harder to make work than, say, setting up a website, creating short videos from long videos, or even setting up ads for businesses.

The next time a 13 year old joins wondering what business to setup I'm still going to ask if they watch a lot of YouTube and if they've ever edited videos. Our 10 and 12 year old kids have uploaded YouTube Shorts off their own bat. They wouldn't be able to create any decent copy, and certainly wouldn't be able to land contracts managing paid ads for businesses.

I consider self-employed plumbers, accountants, and software developers as freelancers or solo-preneurs too. I think it's a step towards setting up a business. The harsh learnings trying to sell your skill will teach people a lot about sales, and how little it is about your skills or certifications. Then there's the step of scaling by divorcing your time from your revenue. These are all great skills to learn, and they can be stacked on top of each other.

I'd rather someone starting out picked a skill and then got paid to learn how to deliver great results, rather than spend thousands on business or marketing courses, or on products they then try to sell.

Going self-employed/freelance is often the start or someone's entrepreneurial journey and I for one have a soft spot for helping people on that journey.

That's kind of why I've been getting into web design so I can simultaneously learn a sellable skill, selling, marketing and networking.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

I agree, that was certainly the process for me. However, I think people like @Kak and Dan Pena may be suggesting an alternative that gets you to jump straight into (2) or even (3). This thread seems to be pretty much aimed at saying skip the freelancing/job, think bigger, start a business. What it's missing is some guidance on the how.

I learned the how by hustling, as you say... took me quite awhile!

An entrepreneur doesn't need the how. Figuring out how is what an entrepreneur does.

I think this is what frustrates me about freelance culture. People go toward freelance because they don't have to figure out how. That part is already spelled out step-by-step and most still can't make it work.

To me, an entrepreneur doesn't need instructions or permission. Instructions are helpful but not necessary. Permission isn't helpful or necessary.

I mean...if Kak saying freelancing isn't entrepreneurship would stop you from freelancing when you think it's worth it, then do you really have what it takes to succeed in freelancing or business?

None of this is a suggestion to start a rocket fuel business with no experience. I don't disagree with Kak's approach to business, but I don't follow it. I follow my own and I don't need permission.

Anyone considering freelancing should step back and ask themselves if freelancing is really necessary or if it's just a less scary (more comfortable) path. Also, ask yourself what are the chances you get stuck freelancing for income and can't break free because you can't go back to a job and you're too scared to go forward as a business.

Think about it, then make a F*cking decision and just do it and give me and Kak and everyone else the middle finger as you rise to success and share how you did it.

 

[BizyDad]

An entrepreneur doesn't need the how. Figuring out how is what an entrepreneur does.

I think this is what frustrates me about freelance culture. People go toward freelance because they don't have to figure out how. That part is already spelled out step-by-step and most still can't make it work.

To me, an entrepreneur doesn't need instructions or permission. Instructions are helpful but not necessary. Permission isn't helpful or necessary.

I mean...if Kak saying freelancing isn't entrepreneurship would stop you from freelancing when you think it's worth it, then do you really have what it takes to succeed in freelancing or business?

None of this is a suggestion to start a rocket fuel business with no experience. I don't disagree with Kak's approach to business, but I don't follow it. I follow my own and I don't need permission.

Anyone considering freelancing should step back and ask themselves if freelancing is really necessary or if it's just a less scary (more comfortable) path. Also, ask yourself what are the chances you get stuck freelancing for income and can't break free because you can't go back to a job and you're too scared to go forward as a business.

Think about it, then make a F*cking decision and just do it and give me and Kak and everyone else the middle finger as you rise to success and share how you did it.

I think that's something we can all agree on.

Middle finger being maybe a little excessive... Lol.

 

[AnNvr]

For anybody reading this, keep taking the steps you need to take to get you where you want to go. And it doesn't matter if more successful people tell you you are doing it wrong. It's your life. No one else is going to hike your mountain road for you. Do what you got to do. The most important thing an entrepreneur can do is make their own mistakes and learn from them.

Thank you for saying this.

What I found off in this thread is, once again, biases towards specific skill sets, and it should stop as much as that endless conflict between copyrighting and coding. Truly seems evident that everyone of us began the marathon from thousands of different points. I experienced freelancing and all I can say is: It's a lonely road, not much money because currently building the skills to be competitive (and the competition can be very high) but I learnt more in a few months of freelancing than a whole life of conventional education or conventional jobs.

People come on here, make big proclamations, and get laughed at. Mocked.

And now we're wondering why people aren't sharing big dreams here?

And we all know that once big business gets going, it gets harder and harder to maintain or disclose on threads.

Maybe it is a shame that things aren't as they used to be. But being the forum Grandpa commiserating about the good old days isn't exactly helping. No one is asking you to be a seal (although that does sound like a shot at people).

Chapeau for bring this up.
I haven't been around for too long but I have assisted to several mocks to people trying to share an idea. It's great having people who went so far in life, but from these high achievers I would expect wisdom rather than mocks. Then again, it might always worked this way? Don't know. Surely I read a lot of success but not many people speaking about failures. Where have I failed? What happened? How did I reassessed? How did I not get lost myself in the desert of desertion? Nothing wrong to share all the steps of progress rather than only the highest achievements. We all go wrong, and we all learn doing so.

Maybe it is a shame that things aren't as they used to be. But being the forum Grandpa commiserating about the good old days isn't exactly helping. No one is asking you to be a seal (although that does sound like a shot at people).

Other great point: what if entrepreneurship is mutating? Times change. So do the trends.
Walking by the Lamborghini dealer next by where I live, cars displayed with arguably good taste color palettes: pink, light blue, fuchsia, gold, and a giant display is playing an arcade video game about nitro-fueled cars spinning on arcade race tracks. As Italian born and grown, not far away from Sant'Agata Bolognese (birth place of Lamborghini) I never seen such a thing from the brand. By no accident, tik tok / OnlyFans / Instagram content creators of junk are making insane amount of wealth producing trash.
Overall, who am I to condemn or have biases towards these producers? Are giving the market what the market ask.
Likewise for burger flippers becoming burger restaurant owners, coders, copywriters, and so forth.

Glad to be proven wrong, tho.

Cheers!

 

[BizyDad]

Other great point: what if entrepreneurship is mutating? Times change. So do the trends.
Walking by the Lamborghini dealer next by where I live, cars displayed with arguably good taste color palettes: pink, light blue, fuchsia, gold, and a giant display is playing an arcade video game about nitro-fueled cars spinning on arcade race tracks. As Italian born and grown, not far away from Sant'Agata Bolognese (birth place of Lamborghini) I never seen such a thing from the brand. By no accident, tik tok / OnlyFans / Instagram content creators of junk are making insane amount of wealth producing trash.
Overall, who am I to condemn or have biases towards these producers? Are giving the market what the market ask.
Likewise for burger flippers becoming burger restaurant owners, coders, copywriters, and so forth.

Glad to be proven wrong, tho.

Cheers!

First off, thank you for your kind words.

Respectfully, this isn't the point I was making. And I don't agree with the point you are making. Entrepreneurship isn't changing. Tastes may change, business tactics may change, but entrepreneurship is entrepreneurship.

The principles that MJ writes about in his books were valid 100 years ago and will be valid 100 years from now. Sure you can make money in an MLM, or videos on TikTok, or selling crypto, etc etc etc, but that doesn't mean the fundamentals of what makes a good business have changed. There's a difference between making money and building a business.

Now my original point was that Kak is commiserating about a time when there were more people on the forum who thought like him. Gave encouragement like he does.

To be fair to @Kak , this is a man who has spent an inordinate amount of his time devoted to helping people think bigger, dream bigger, raise the bar on people's expectations of themselves. Like @NeoDialectic said before, Kak's voice is a valuable part of the chorus on voices on this forum. We all have our notes to sing. And some part of Kak wants to see more of us raising our own bars and inspiring others to do the same.

And in that he is right.

So why did I argue? I suppose I'll explain via a story I once heard about Mother Theresa. I have no idea if this is true, but...

They once asked Mother Theresa to join in an anti war march.

To everyone's surprise, she refused.

When asked why she would refuse such a noble cause, she explained she would never take part in an anti war march, but whenever they decided to hold a pro peace rally, she'd be there.

There is power in the things we give our focus to. I believe focusing on antifreelance is misguided.

Focusing on thinking bigger than freelancing is the proper focus, and I hope Kak continues to bang that drum.

I haven't been around for too long but I have assisted to several mocks to people trying to share an idea. It's great having people who went so far in life, but from these high achievers I would expect wisdom rather than mocks. Then again, it might always worked this way? Don't know. Surely I read a lot of success but not many people speaking about failures. Where have I failed? What happened? How did I reassessed? How did I not get lost myself in the desert of desertion? Nothing wrong to share all the steps of progress rather than only the highest achievements. We all go wrong, and we all learn doing so.

There are many many threads which detail failings. You must have just not come across them. But dozens of members have detailed journeys with the highs and lows.

Shoot I began my intro post talking about my biggest failure to date, my divorce. I was pretty surprised it got marked Gold. I also wrote this thread about how I got the concept of leadership all wrong. Maybe it'll help you.

GOLD! - MINDSET - How My Attitude Towards Leadership Held Me Back For Decades

I remember growing up my school had two or three shelves of biographies. I read them all. Those books deeply impacted who I wanted to be in life at a very young age. I remember many lessons. But this one lesson I had forgotten, until just recently: All my favorite leaders got shot. Growing up...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

 

[Andy Black]

I tagged some of the people in this thread in the thread below:

I'd love to see what people suggest.

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/tired-of-trading-time-for-money.106976/

 

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[Kevin88660]

I agree, that was certainly the process for me. However, I think people like @Kak and Dan Pena may be suggesting an alternative that gets you to jump straight into (2) or even (3). This thread seems to be pretty much aimed at saying skip the freelancing/job, think bigger, start a business. What it's missing is some guidance on the how.

I learned the how by hustling, as you say... took me quite awhile!

Even CZ the founder of binance worked for two crypto firms before starting binance. He was set to create his own business all the while and deliberate work to get relevant experience.

Imagine someone pitching me to invest in his or her food service business whereas this guy has never worked in the F and B industry and never has a proven track recording of creating one SKU with good sales number..I would stay far away from it.

For most young people jumping right into business without some ground is the fastest way to lose their parent’s saving.

Job experience is good way to get paid industry education and experience. Freelancing forces you to learn about budgeting and cost management and even business strategies. You decide what clients you want to serve and you choose your competitors as you choose the sectors.

But I am highly skeptical of providing service where you compete against English writers whose cost of living is a fraction of yours. There is always someone in India who can do it faster, better and definitely cheaper. This could apply to coding as well.

There is still window of opportunity for young people in high income countries U.S. for example to do physical labor related freelancing. Once they accumulated their first pool of capital they could transform it into a business through hiring manpower.

Once Biden opened the flood gate of mass amnesty (not trying to get into politics but pure Economics 101), the window will be closed. Hourly rate will hit floor price. If you are a business owner you simply trades lower margin for higher volume and it might be even slightly better for you. But you want to do home cleaning on your way to own a cleaning company that road will be dead.

 

[BizyDad]

I tagged some of the people in this thread in the thread below:

I'd love to see what people suggest.

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/tired-of-trading-time-for-money.106976/

I didn't get an alert about being tagged. I thought maybe I just missed it, so I checked my settings and reviewed my alert list and didn't get it. No big deal, just thought you and the other admins should know in case it isn't a one time thing. @MJ DeMarco

I'll check that thread out later.

 

[heavy_industry]

I didn't get an alert about being tagged. I thought maybe I just missed it, so I checked my settings and reviewed my alert list and didn't get it. No big deal, just thought you and the other admins should know in case it isn't a one time thing. @MJ DeMarco

I'll check that thread out later.

I've had the same thing happening for new posts in a thread I was watching.

I think it's one of the bugs of the forum software.

 

[Andy Black]

I didn't get an alert about being tagged. I thought maybe I just missed it, so I checked my settings and reviewed my alert list and didn't get it. No big deal, just thought you and the other admins should know in case it isn't a one time thing. @MJ DeMarco

I'll check that thread out later.

I wonder if it's because I added some of the tags after posting?

 

[hexelbyte]

I love how this thread went from red labelled RANT to golden IDEA.
Way to turn a shitpost to a golden thread.

 

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[Sander]

Been thinking of this thread for a few days now.

I earned some money writing online while in high school.

After high school, I made a small company and made a living doing freelance writing jobs.

Called myself an entrepreneur for many years.

Fast forward ten years, I haven't buit anything entrepreneurial. Just made a freelance job for myself, so I didn't have to find a job but could work from my computer and control how much time I'd work.

I've loved it and hated it through the years.

The gigs have paid my rent for ten years, but I never loved the job. Got fascinated with the possibility to earn money writing online in high school. It was easy for me (*note, I'm not a native English writer, I write in another language).

I always had writing as a backup plan, never really jumped into anything else other than dipping the toes, and then returned to writing for the easy, but often dreadful and boring money.

I haven't called myself an entrepreneur in a few years. Instead I've used freelancer. Entrepreneur sounded cool, freelancer is reality.

I've thought about the scene from The Social Network from time to time, where Dakota Johnson ask Justin Timberlake "Well then, what was your latest 'preneur?". If someone asked me this question, I wouldn't have an answer.

This is not me being sad or anything. Rather it's me having a bit of a light bulb moment, making me think if I really want to be an entrepreneur, which I've thought for many years, or I don't have it in me.

Entrepreneur has been my self image for many years. But history/reality doesn't really show anything 'preneurial.

 

[heavy_industry]

Entrepreneur has been my self image for many years. But history/reality doesn't really show anything 'preneurial.

Don't let your past decide your future.
If you're not happy with the status quo, it's never too late to change the direction of your life.

 

[Sander]

Don't let your past decide your future.
If you're not happy with the status quo, it's never too late to change the direction of your life.

I'm not. I'm trying to learn as much about myself from this as possible.

I'm about to turn 30, and I've seen a change in my mentality over the last 6-12 months. Don't know if it's coincidencial, or if I'm getting more mature.

Instead of accepting my old limiting beliefs, I've started to question them.

Examples:

- I'm not handy and can't build anything
- I can't run a marathon
- I don't know how to code
- I don't like (insert random food)
- I'm introvert

And now my brain starts to challenge my own limits, which I've labelled myself with for years.

- Are you not handy, or is it because you've just never learned anything about using tools, building stuff etc? Or when you've helped people, they were making fun of you for being shit, and that have made you believe you're bad, when you're actually just sad about being bullied with being bad at this shit. I've never put up a shelf on the wall. Until recently, when I said F*ck it, of course I can F*cking do it. It's a ridiculously small thing to do, but I was a big victory for me.

- Why can't you run a marathon? Have you tried? Did you train for it? Instead of saying I can't, I ran my first half marathon i january. It was tough, but I made it. So why can't i do a full marathon?

- Well, you learned HTML for fun at 12 years old. So why can't you learn to code? Have you tried? Did you complete a course, or did you try for twenty minutes and quit becuase it was hard? Of course you can learn to code. If you put in the time.

- Or maybe it has always just been easier to say "i don't like it" than trying to taste it. You were raised with frozen shit and zero vegetables, no shit you had a limiting belief of being a picky eater. No wonder it takes time to learn to eat right. And look at you now, eating what's on your plate, even when it's green and healthy.

- Are you introvert? Why? How do you know? This was one of the things I began thinking about reading Michael A. Singers stuff.

 

[heavy_industry]

I'm not. I'm trying to learn as much about myself from this as possible.

Don't try to learn about yourself, because what you call as "myself" doesn't really exist.

Your mind is nothing but an accumulation of impressions of events from the past. A self-made collection of personal opinions about who you think you are and what the world is. What you think you can and cannot do.

It has no predictive power.

Right now, you have the freedom to do and be anything and everything you want. It doesn't matter what happened in the past. Life can be entirely different from this moment onwards. It's within your power to decide your fate.

The person that you were 5-10 years ago no longer exists. You should definitely learn from their successes and failures. Just remember that it is not really you.

 

[Isaac Odongo]

I think there is something here.

I read copywriting and realised I can use the skills to design book titles or whatever, signposts or something similar for a business I run.

It is true. Some countries have no min wage bill. In Uganda you may earn 3 dollars a day doing hard concrete work. In that case another supplement becomes necessary.

My current job pays me less than 3 dollars a day. I keep it because the company is startup and the leaders and managers have experience from running another national giant in the industry. So I get experience observing them.

However, I realised earlier that I need to learn some strong skills to set myself apart and give me an edge. So I began learning website design and when I joined the forum and saw all newbies taking the same direction, I decided to take a hard addition and learn programming. I have also read copywriting and advertising. I think they will be useful when I start a business.

Pin the hardcore or big Fastlane threads up there. We will see them. I sometimes wonder where they are. To be sure, too many freelance threads get boring.

I believe I may add freelance to my day job when I complete website design and programming. But it is just to put a meal on the table, like fuel myself for the Fastlane road trip.

 

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[Vivielle]

Don't try to learn about yourself, because what you call as "myself" doesn't really exist.

Your mind is nothing but an accumulation of impressions of events from the past. A self-made collection of personal opinions about who you think you are and what the world is. What you think you can and cannot do.

It has no predictive power.

Right now, you have the freedom to do and be anything and everything you want. It doesn't matter what happened in the past. Life can be entirely different from this moment onwards. It's within your power to decide your fate.

The person that you were 5-10 years ago no longer exists. You should definitely learn from their successes and failures. Just remember that it is not really you.

So powerful and truthful words

 

[BrunoRastablasta]

I'm not from a Romanian village, but a Bosnian city which is pretty much the same.
Been working as a freelance content writer (copywriting is way harder) for the past 7 years.

I'm only making $70k a year and just this year, I started to build a real business (nonfiction business book summaries). But the majority of people here earn $10k a year and because of my freelancing, I managed to buy an apartment, get married, and live in the top 3% of people in my country. So it's a viable start and end point for many people here and in other third-world countries.

On the other hand, I'm a greedy motherfcker who started all of this shit so I don't have to trade time for money. So I'll continue working on my business until it's no longer required to trade time for money.

Freelancing can be a good starting point, but you have to remember that "what you got you here, won't you get there."

my2cents

 

[RicardoGrande]

...
I was doing mechanical/engineering design work, which is something I was already very experienced in. I don't think it would have been worth it for me if I had to learn and master a new skill just to start freelancing. For people who are struggling to start something, I would say it's better than not doing anything though. There may be faster paths, but you can learn a lot about sales, marketing, dealing with customers, etc., just by freelancing for a bit.

I definitely learned some valuable things, and I don't regret it because it's part of the path that led me to where I am now, but part of me wishes I had focused that time on some other type of website that could generate some passive income or help build an audience. I could have learned most of the same things and had more to show for it
...

Dude that's awesome, congratulations!

I wish we could see more stories like this, but I think a big part of what we see here is either people who just don't have skills outside of minwage jobs, people who don't have transferrable skills, and then the people that usually do have enough to do freelancing/consulting are usually trapped by debt and lifestyle and don't have the courage to make it work.

I do know a few ladies that got hired out of college to be consultants but they're also drowning in credit card debt. For myself and a good friend- we have excellent work experience in the IT and cyber security field but it's not something we could easily find demand for without starting up a small Managed Services business... but that leaves us liable to some rather explosive problems that can end in money trouble or legal trouble and many late nights.

On top of that, most have probably had little exposure to entrepreneurship outside of TMF /Unscripted and some tiktoks so they can't "see" the world the way an entrepreneur does. I know in my case I'll read some service business progress threads and be amazed: "Wait so you can just pick up a power washer and knock on 50 doors a day and make a living?" or with arbitrage "Wait you can buy fencing from thailand and sell it online and beat out HOME DEPOT?" Even if they do learn, they may think there's too much lag time between financial self-sufficiency and where they're at.

If you do have the exposure or family that do it, a real business is definitely attainable- at the last TFF meetup I went to I ran into a 19 year old that was running a hunting outfitter e-commerce store and had made enough money to buy a dodge charger in cash- if you don't have that know how and throw yourself at reading business stories though, it seems like a damn mountain to climb.

 

[Currawong]

For me, starting freelance work is mainly about gaining more control over my work situation (while I learn some business skills to transition into something more scalable).

My day job is often in a state of crisis due to decisions elsewhere in the organisation (power struggles/infighting, promotion attempts, domain incompetence etc).

It's a stressful time suck when I could be working towards my own thing. I'm done with being a muggins working my butt off to paper over the latest situation, for someone else's benefit.

 

[Andy Black]

Blimey. I don't even remember creating this thread:

• SIDE HUSTLE - Freelance and beyond

And forgot I had anything on this domain:

• FreelanceAndBeyond.com

 

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[Andy Black]

Blimey. I don't even remember creating this thread:

• SIDE HUSTLE - Freelance and beyond

And forgot I had anything on this domain:

• FreelanceAndBeyond.com

Ha, and I even found a short lived progress thread too:

• EXECUTION - Figuring out blogging

I leave a trail of "Figuring Out XYZ" threads in my wake. I think I've even more progress threads than @Lex DeVille, although I think mine make less progress.

 

[ninjacopywriter]

Copywriting proponents always talk about how it’s good for someone just starting out. I want to challenge them to find a single copywriter that went on to start a successful multimillion dollar unrelated company.

It’s a lie, distraction, and cop out. No one shows up to an entrepreneur forum with a modicum of ambition wishing they could be a keyboard ninja 18 hours a day.

The freelance cultist groupthink needs to stop. This is an entrepreneur forum and not a support group for struggling freelancers. We are here to actually thrive.

You might wonder why I’m so vehement about this lately. It pains me to see bad advice so freely flowing.

It’s time we take some ground back, as a forum, for true scalable and high value commerce. It is available to you even if you think it isn’t.

Edit: If you go through the thread there are several examples of entrepreneurs that started without being a freelancer first. I know because I posted three of them. Feel free to post your own examples. The point of this thread is to put on high display some alternative, and higher probability, starts that show it can be done. You don’t have to be a freelancer first or forever.

Damn i needed that slap on the face...though at the moment, I am doing looking for freelance just bc I need money ASAP

 

[Damien C]

Damn i needed that slap on the face...though at the moment, I am doing looking for freelance just bc I need money ASAP

No you don't need a slap.

You don't have to start as a freelancer, that's true. But I wouldn't go bashing / reducing it's value to nothing either. It's like bashing somebody going to the gym and using machines instead of free-weights. At least they're going.

Copywriting may pay sweet F all, but that's not the point. Combine that skill with front end development, back end development, video production, voiceover artist, graphic design, book keeping and taxation, SEO and so on and you suddenly have all of the skills required to build tech startups from the ground up for $0 instead of expending $200-300,000+ before you get past the starting gate.

There's also nothing wrong with somebody who just wants to write a few blog posts or websites when they "feel like it", send invoices, and then get a villa by the beach overseas and have sex all day. That's a pretty nice way to live too, and in some cases could actually be better than building a startup, especially if the alternative requires bringing in VCs who own your a$$ in much the same way an employee is owned!

You should always be wary of others who project and/or make a living out of telling others how to live their lives. What the hell would they know about you, and why would they care? F*** everyone else. Go after what you want, use every tool and avenue available to do it, and go at your own pace with your own success metrics.

 

[Antifragile]

For those that aren't as driven as you, it just sounds like your screaming from an ivory tower.

This made me think. I recently had a similar conversation with someone else. I was asked “how did you get to living in ____ and driving range rovers?”

I grew up in the USSR. It collapsed, I saw hyperinflation as a kid. Life wasn’t sunshine and roses. In fact, it felt like a small hell. No money and no prospects… unless I left somewhere else.

At 17 I won a national spot at the best international high school. This meant a full academic scholarship that covered travel, food, shelter, tuition and books. It was the only way to leave for me… this was the 90s and believe me, everyone I knew wanted to leave to come to America… but 99.999% couldn’t.

I moved countries again a few years after. Still had nothing and came alone. As international student + scholarship, but smaller. Everything I owned I could fit in one suitcase. Working was a must. Or you don’t eat.

The point is: My drive in life came from despair. I worked as a cleaning crew for a “hotel” making beds and changing toilet paper rolls. Worked at a food bank etc.

I’ve hit so many personal lows in my 20s that when I look back now … my personal drive came from desperation. MJ called it the FTE, and I feel I’ve had too many of them.

It drove me to side hustles. Too many to list … all made better money that my jobs.

So I take exception to anyone saying “ivory tower” now that I have high net worth, and successful businesses. My advice to anyone reading is based on how I see the world, not on how I now live.

 

[Kak]

No you don't need a slap.

You don't have to start as a freelancer, that's true. But I wouldn't go bashing / reducing it's value to nothing either. It's like bashing somebody going to the gym and using machines instead of free-weights. At least they're going.

Copywriting may pay sweet F all, but that's not the point. Combine that skill with front end development, back end development, video production, voiceover artist, graphic design, book keeping and taxation, SEO and so on and you suddenly have all of the skills required to build tech startups from the ground up for $0 instead of expending $200-300,000+ before you get past the starting gate.

There's also nothing wrong with somebody who just wants to write a few blog posts or websites when they "feel like it", send invoices, and then get a villa by the beach overseas and have sex all day. That's a pretty nice way to live too, and in some cases could actually be better than building a startup, especially if the alternative requires bringing in VCs who own your a$$ in much the same way an employee is owned!

You should always be wary of others who project and/or make a living out of telling others how to live their lives. What the hell would they know about you, and why would they care? F*** everyone else. Go after what you want, use every tool and avenue available to do it, and go at your own pace with your own success metrics.

This being an entrepreneur forum, I sincerely hope two things…

1. Those interested in entrepreneurship don’t settle on something that isn’t.

2. Those who settled aren’t trying to suggest others join them to feel better about their decision to settle.

But again, I’m unreasonable for suggesting such blasphemy on an entrepreneurship forum. I forgot. This is Reddit now.

I truly hope everyone here becomes all they can be, and that poor advice won’t alter positive entrepreneurial trajectory for the worse.

 

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[Antifragile]

Damn i needed that slap on the face...though at the moment, I am doing looking for freelance just bc I need money ASAP

To make a good decision, explore all alternatives. Pick the best.

What one thing you could start doing now that would make your life better?

What will your life look like in 10 years if you keep doing what your are doing now on repeat? Will you be happy? Satisfied?

Good luck.

 

[Antifragile]

No you don't need a slap.

You like telling people what they need and don’t need. Ok. Got it.

You don't have to start as a freelancer, that's true. But I wouldn't go bashing / reducing it's value to nothing either. It's like bashing somebody going to the gym and using machines instead of free-weights. At least they're going.

If you want to be wold class bodybuilder, maybe get in with the right crowd? Weekend warrior gym chubbies won’t cut it .

Copywriting may pay sweet F all, but that's not the point.

It is exactly the point.

Combine that skill with front end development, back end development, video production, voiceover artist, graphic design, book keeping and taxation, SEO and so on and you suddenly have all of the skills required to build tech startups from the ground up for $0 instead of expending $200-300,000+ before you get past the starting gate.

So… every copywriter must also do all of the above. Got it. 🙄

There's also nothing wrong with somebody who just wants to write a few blog posts or websites when they "feel like it", send invoices, and then get a villa by the beach overseas and have sex all day.

Because every copywriter on this forum lives this life. Hahahahhaa

Thanks for the humour. I needed it.

That's a pretty nice way to live too, and in some cases could actually be better than building a startup, especially if the alternative requires bringing in VCs who own your a$$ in much the same way an employee is owned!

Because the alternative to copywriting is VC startup funding. Got it. 🙄

You should always be wary of others who project and/or make a living out of telling others how to live their lives.

Ok, I got it. Don’t listen to you. You just projected yourself all over in this post. I’m not just wary, I am picking your arguments apart with ease.

What the hell would they know about you, and why would they care? F*** everyone else. Go after what you want, use every tool and avenue available to do it, and go at your own pace with your own success metrics.

Finally something of value. I believe that was the very point @Kak was making by starting this thread.

 

[BizyDad]

This made me think. I recently had a similar conversation with someone else. I was asked “how did you get to living in ____ and driving range rovers?”

I grew up in the USSR. It collapsed, I saw hyperinflation as a kid. Life wasn’t sunshine and roses. In fact, it felt like a small hell. No money and no prospects… unless I left somewhere else.

At 17 I won a national spot at the best international high school. This meant a full academic scholarship that covered travel, food, shelter, tuition and books. It was the only way to leave for me… this was the 90s and believe me, everyone I knew wanted to leave to come to America… but 99.999% couldn’t.

I moved countries again a few years after. Still had nothing and came alone. As international student + scholarship, but smaller. Everything I owned I could fit in one suitcase. Working was a must. Or you don’t eat.

The point is: My drive in life came from despair. I worked as a cleaning crew for a “hotel” making beds and changing toilet paper rolls. Worked at a food bank etc.

I’ve hit so many personal lows in my 20s that when I look back now … my personal drive came from desperation. MJ called it the FTE, and I feel I’ve had too many of them.

It drove me to side hustles. Too many to list … all made better money that my jobs.

So I take exception to anyone saying “ivory tower” now that I have high net worth, and successful businesses. My advice to anyone reading is based on how I see the world, not on how I now live.

You like telling people what they need and don’t need. Ok. Got it.



If you want to be wold class bodybuilder, maybe get in with the right crowd? Weekend warrior gym chubbies won’t cut it .



It is exactly the point.



So… every copywriter must also do all of the above. Got it. 🙄



Because every copywriter on this forum lives this life. Hahahahhaa

Thanks for the humour. I needed it.



Because the alternative to copywriting is VC startup funding. Got it. 🙄



Ok, I got it. Don’t listen to you. You just projected yourself all over in this post. I’m not just wary, I am picking your arguments apart with ease.



Finally something of value. I believe that was the very point @Kak was making by starting this thread.

Oh my goodness. You mean you didn't begin your journey as a fully formed butt kicking entrepreneur?

Wow.

I. Am. Shocked.

You had SIDE HUSTLES?

MORE THAN ONE?!?!

And you still made it BIG?!?!

I thought you were always a "world class bodybuilder" of entrepreneurship.



Gosh @Antifragile you must have been really strong not to let all the other crabs pull you back down.

Began in the USSR, and you almost got stuck in SIDE HUSTLES. The cards were so stacked against you.

Good thing you got out of those side hustles and didn't learn a single thing from any of them, else you wouldn't be as successful as building buildings as you are today.

So I take exception to anyone saying “ivory tower” now that I have high net worth, and successful businesses

Really? He called you smart and suggested you view things through the prism of knowing more than other people...

That's insulting to you?

Is it the part about your greater knowledge leading to people being unable to relate to you and you coming off as "out of touch"?

Because frankly... you had SIDE hustles fam.

Sounds like you weren't ready to hang with the world champion bodybuilders. Or maybe the world champion bodybuilders needed you to prove yourself first because they didn't want to hang with the guy who folded bed sheets at hotels.

Either way, it's hypocritical for you to suggest the freelancing is not a good option for some people. Especially living the life you lived. We pick on Dave Ramsey for giving advice that he didn't live. How is this any different?

The cognitive dissonance between your two comments is Orwellian level double think. You want credit for having started from nothing and pulled yourself up from the bootstraps, but you don't want anyone else using bootstraps. They should just start with real business.

Uh huh. Right. Well, I take exception to that.

 

[Antifragile]

Oh my goodness. You mean you didn't begin your journey as a fully formed butt kicking entrepreneur?

Wow.

I. Am. Shocked.

You had SIDE HUSTLES?

MORE THAN ONE?!?!

And you still made it BIG?!?!

I thought you were always a "world class bodybuilder" of entrepreneurship.

View attachment 47332

Gosh @Antifragile you must have been really strong not to let all the other crabs pull you back down.

Began in the USSR, and you almost got stuck in SIDE HUSTLES. The cards were so stacked against you.

Good thing you got out of those side hustles and didn't learn a single thing from any of them, else you wouldn't be as successful as building buildings as you are today.



Really? He called you smart and suggested you view things through the prism of knowing more than other people...

That's insulting to you?

Is it the part about your greater knowledge leading to people being unable to relate to you and you coming off as "out of touch"?

Because frankly... you had SIDE hustles fam.

Sounds like you weren't ready to hang with the world champion bodybuilders. Or maybe the world champion bodybuilders needed you to prove yourself first because they didn't want to hang with the guy who folded bed sheets at hotels.

Either way, it's hypocritical for you to suggest the freelancing is not a good option for some people. Especially living the life you lived. We pick on Dave Ramsey for giving advice that he didn't live. How is this any different?

The cognitive dissonance between your two comments is Orwellian level double think. You want credit for having started from nothing and pulled yourself up from the bootstraps, but you don't want anyone else using bootstraps. They should just start with real business.

Uh huh. Right. Well, I take exception to that.

For a smart guy you sure know how to miss a point.

I’ve done more wrong things in life than most on this forum. I’ve also failed more than most too. Don’t you get it? After experiencing those bad days, I don’t want another 20 something here on the forum to have a rough go. There are better ways.

Many, maybe most!, can and should do better than just defaulting to copywriting. Don’t do what is most “obvious” or “easy”. Do what gets you further ahead!

What on earth are you going on about?