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Some questions about web design

LaneMan

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No. That is not how it is done.

I got a dozen threads on here and a Youtube channel with 100s of hours of free content on how to get started. We even talked about this exact thing specifically it in the video you supposably watched in your first post.

Here is another link...


Yea but it's about getting started by getting any kind of work even if it's free. Chris talked about how he hustled and took on any kind of work at the beginning. That's what I've been doing and I already have 8 clients right now.

Now I need to move forward and get some clients that are actually worth working with. One of my clients is getting leads submitting his contact form but he never replies to them because he's lazy and takes the website for granted because he got it for a real steal.

2 weeks ago a client contacted me to cancel his hosting because he was getting too many people contacting him asking for quotes. Now he doesn't have a website and he's never been happier. That's how I lost 1 client.
 
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Fox

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Yea but it's about getting started by getting any kind of work even if it's free. Chris talked about how he hustled and took on any kind of work at the beginning. That's what I've been doing and I already have 8 clients right now.

Now I need to move forward and get some clients that are actually worth working with. One of my clients is getting leads submitting his contact form but he never replies to them because he's lazy and takes the website for granted because he got it for a real steal.

2 weeks ago a client contacted me to cancel his hosting because he was getting too many people contacting him asking for quotes. Now he doesn't have a website and he's never been happier. That's how I lost 1 client.

Okay so start a progress thread and tag me in. This just looks to me like you wanted some free advice so you started this thread and pretended it was about my school. I just posted a real website above (your original big thing) and you haven’t even mentioned it.

I got threads on here I have started where I literally ask people to ask me these questions if they are stuck. This whole thread is a bait and switch to just get your questions answered without doing any real effort on your side.
 

LaneMan

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Okay so start a progress thread and tag me in. This just looks to me like you wanted some free advice so you started this thread and pretended it was about my school. I just posted a real website above (your original big thing) and you haven’t even mentioned it.

I got threads on here I have started where I literally ask people to ask me these questions if they are stuck. This whole thread is a bait and switch to just get your questions answered without doing any real effort on your side.

The reason I started this thread is because I watched your videos and read your sales letter in the marketplace about your school. This is the first thing I read when I joined this forum and I've been thinking about joining since then but I don't trust people that easily. That's why I wanted to know if you're for real or just another internet marketer scamming people.

You know how it is online. Some guy promises to make you rich but first you need to give him $997 and the secret is yours.

You already showed me this website in your pm and there's nothing special about it, that's why I didn't say anything. I can see how this website added value because that company probably didn't have a website until you made one for them. The technical stuff like copywriting, design, etc, don't matter at all here.

So my conclusion is, you need to prospect and qualify the clients who are really looking to benefit from a website and who don't mind investing on one but you keep saying no, it's about something else and I'm guessing you'll say the answer can be found after joining the school (which is the reason why I want to join in the first place), which is totally fine because I don't expect you to help people for free - I wouldn't do it.
 

Black_Dragon43

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they are worth 10k or a lot more because they solve massive problems and create a ton of value
@Fox , sorry man, but that's just what you want to believe, and what you're telling yourself. It's just a story. The fact is, they are NOT worth $10K and they are not solving massive problems and creating a ton of value... If that's what solving massive problems looks like... lol

The reason why you're selling at those numbers is because you're selling to ignorant and naive people. That's the real secret here. It's not that you're solving massive problems.

And all the circumlocutions do nothing except drag the delusion forward.

it is still just a fraction of the value you are creating for the client (if done right).
How do you quantify that? Say you create a logo. How do you quantify that value for the client? Oh, he'll sell more. So you create the logo, he puts it on, and sales go up 500%. Is that increase due to the logo, or is it due to the new product line? Is it due to the logo, or is it due to the new marketing angle? "Oh, but if we make the logo count just for 1%..." - no assumptions please.

The real truth is that the value of the logo, assuming it's not completely incongruent, is marginal at best.

Quick example: A medium-large delivery truck business
"Let's change our logo..."
Cost of wrapping 10 delivery trucks with new graphics: $15,000
Cost of changing all company clothes with new logo: $10,000
Cost of printing all new marketing and sales material: $20,000

But they should spend $300 on the logo to save some money? lol!
Yes, why wouldn't they? Just because they can pay more? That makes no sense. The job of the entrepreneur is to ensure the efficient allocation of resources to production. If you pay 10x what you could pay for a logo, you're being stupid, not smart.

And now you're going to say "there is a lot on the line" -> yes, indeed. Which is why smart businessmen are going to have a clear vision and idea of how that logo should look like and what it should do to fit their business. They're not going to ask you to come up with that.

In addition, if a businessman takes your logo, and sees that it's bad, and decides to roll it out anyway and incur the $45K cost, only to have to re-do it, then he's not a very smart person. He should have known when he received your logo and fired you, or asked for changes.

I will give you the perfect example. A $5M construction business, I know the owner. New logo cost him $10 (I sent hi to the right person). It went on all their uniforms, their trucks, their building, their letterheads, business cards, etc. According to you, he should have paid $10,000, because hey - if he's going to pay $50K to change all the other assets, why not?! LOL

I doubt, however, that you run your business like that. I imagine you paid way under $500 for that Fox school logo ;)

Main point: when you are a big business and there is a lot on the line you aren't going to mess around with trying to get a bargain. You need someone who gets it and who can deliver. You need someone who isn't just thinking technical and design - you want someone focused on understanding your exact problem and having the right solution to fix it.
Yep, a $25/hr designer can do that. I can recommend you a good one, that is even going to make suggestions about how you can make it better and how it can fit into your overarching strategy, present you with multiple options, work with you to understand what you're trying to achieve, etc.

Why should anyone choose you? The answer: ignorance.

Again - don't be limited by your perspectives of working with some cheap clients on UpWork.
LOL - I have had clients who have paid me as much as 30K in one go. So I'm absolutely not limited to cheap clients on UW. I'm not limited to anything here - I'm just looking to understand the economic reality, not a propagandistic story.


Example: Obama's 2012 website. I am not an Obama fan but look at what a very basic website was worth to him... Obama 2012

Anyone with some coding experiences could technically build that website. But what was it worth to him? Keep in mind it "increased donation conversions by 49%"

"He was the first candidate ever to receive $1 billion in donations, of which an incredible $690 million was raised digitally. (source: Time Magazine)"

$500? $5,000? $500,000? It helped win him an election and got him millions in donations.
Do you charge for what it takes to technically build it or what it is worth to him???
LOL! No man. The website wasn't worth that. The website was worth little. The strategy behind the entire campaign was worth that. That's what made him President, not the website lol. The website is a tiny tiny part of that.

Here's the bottom line: you need to stop thinking about how you can find dumb people to hand you over 10K for a basic website that they could get made in India at a fraction of the cost. You need to start thinking BIGGER as you say. Think how you can create a REAL BUSINESS, where you can do volume and scale to millions of dollars. Not how you can chase people for 10K a pop.

That's going to require some skills, but all this time you spend chasing prospects, you could spend getting the skills. You can learn how to properly code a website from scratch, no templates. Then you can learn how to create advanced web apps. Then you won't have to chase prospects, they will be chasing you. And 10K a pop... that will be an easy, easy sell. If you learn a framework like Laravel, and can deliver a website with the exact functionality your client needs - a web app effectively - then charging 10K will be an every day kinda thing. Even the simplest web apps go for 7K+.

I'm not sure because it depends on where you live and who you talk to. Since it's a Wordpress theme and you're a smart guy, you'd get someone on fiverr to do it for like $200. There's a few bugs here and there, for example, the Getting Started button's background color is blending with the text. On the about and contact pages, the font weight is too bold, it makes the text hard to read.
Well, not that low. Keep in mind it is on Wordpress, but the theme is custom-made from scratch. If I pay that low, it basically means I need to hand-hold the person, and it will take many iterations to get right - massive waste of my time, but could be done. I would probably pay around $600 for the website only. If they do the design, and create the copy, and basically would have taken care of the entire process for me, then I can see how I would pay 5-7K for it.

Now, what I would do instead, being a smart entrepreneur with a clear vision of what I want, is that I would basically buy competent manual labor. I would tell the designer what sections to have, and how to design them - just want him to create them in Figma. Then I would tell my developer to transfer that design over and use XYZ plugin, and so on. Then I would create the story to tell to my copywriter, and ask him to write it up. Then the total cost for the website could probably be around 1K.

Keep in mind, the market value of a website like mine is easily around 8-10K range. But if you're smart, you can produce much cheaper.
 
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LaneMan

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Which is in itself a form of helping for free. Both can be right.

It's a little like buying on credit, you'll pay for it later when you buy the course. I get some free information at the beginning, which satiates my hunger, then I trust this person more and I end up buying his product. It's a win win situation if done right.

You'll find that most people who reply to your questions are selling something related to your question. It's one of the reasons why forums are so effective for selling information products.

Oh btw, @Fox, that website of yours will never pass the quality check at my previous job and my manager would probably kill you for submitting it for approval because it doesn't have a favicon. And yet, you earned more than my manager's yearly salary by building this site, which I must say, is impressive.
 

Andy Black

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It's a form of content marketing
Some people genuinely like and are compelled to help others. They’re not “content marketing”.
 

LaneMan

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The reason why you're selling at those numbers is because you're selling to ignorant and naive people. That's the real secret here. It's not that you're solving massive problems.

Man this is so true. Now that I remember, when I first started prospecting, I approached a business who told me how someone built him a website for $2k which didn't have any return on investment. He said that he found much more success by having a Facebook page and spending a few bucks on ads every now and then.

He told me he was never going to build a website again because web designers are crooks.

The reason why the previous designer got the job was because the business owner didn't know any better.
 
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Raja

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@LaneMan end this already, better learn from this thread.

it has some gold content, I am in a similar situation as you, but I can verify clients don't see the budget when they can afford it.

I don't have a portfolio so that's why I didn't get that gig, and now I am trying to become an authority in that niche.
when they rejected me he said I didn't have anything to show for that's why he rejected and when I asked to give feedback about pricing he said the following.
35149


Edit: I am an app developer
 
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LaneMan

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Some people genuinely like and are compelled to help others. They’re not “content marketing”.

Maybe you're not doing it for monetary gains but there's always a reason.

For example, I might start telling people how great you are because you give a lot of Google ads content for free and you'll feel good about it because now you feel surrounded by good people who will protect you from lions and tigers.

@LaneMan end this already, better learn from this thread.

it has some gold content, I am I'm similar condition as you, but I can verify clients don't see budget when they can afford it.

I don't have a portfolio so that's why I didn't get that gig, and now I am trying to become an authority in that niche.
View attachment 35149
when they he rejected me he said I didnt have anything to show for thats why he rejected and when I asked about pricing he said the above.

Edit: I am an app developer

End what? The conversations have been fruitful and interesting. You seem to be taking sides. You'll end up losing a lot of valuable information that way because you will only accept the answers from people you're siding with.

We're not running a competition here.

The reason why they rejected you is because they're smart people who only hire people with good looking portfolios. If you live in India, you'll mostly find these kind of people - they don't like taking unnecessary risks. In the US, UK, and other developed countries, businesses have a ton more money and can afford to make mistakes.

If you can find igorant business owners, you can charge up to 100x what you're charging now.
 

biophase

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The argument about what something is worth is a very limiting belief. Just because you can build something in X hours, doesn’t mean it’s worth only 3x or 10x the markup.

Do you think a company like Tesla is paying $1000 for their logo? They would probably hire a marketing company and pay over $100k to get a new look. That company would farm the logo design out maybe for $25k. But why not just go on Fiverr?

It’s because the stakes are high if they get a shitty logo. A logo design is based on creativity and art. So the person your hire actually matters. He may come up with something you could do in MS paint, but if that’s the perfect logo then does it matter?

I hired a contractor to remodel my house that I’m very happy with. He is always the highest bid. He gets the job done on time but charges 30% more than the rest. Guess what? I don’t care that I’m paying more because I know I won’t have to deal with change orders and excuses.

My friends might think I’m crazy, but in my mind I’m paying the extra 30% to minimize my stress. I’m sure other contractors are wondering how he charges so much and they can’t even win with the low bid. They prob think his clients are rich idiots or just stupid.

In reality, they don’t understand the psychology of buyers. It sounds like some of you have this same issue.

The absolute price doesn’t matter. It’s the perceived value to the customer you are pitching to. I mean I once paid $8 for a can of Coke. Why would I do that, I know a can is worth $0.50? It’s because I hadn’t had one in 7 days and this guy was selling them out of a cooler in the middle of a jungle!
 
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LaneMan

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The argument about what something is worth is a very limiting belief. Just because you can build something in X hours, doesn’t mean it’s worth only 3x or 10x the markup.

Do you think a company like Tesla is paying $1000 for their logo? They would probably hire a marketing company and pay over $100k to get a new look. That company would farm the logo design out maybe for $25k. But why not just go on Fiverr?

It’s because the stakes are high if they get a shitty logo. A logo design is based on creativity and art. So the person your hire actually matters. He may come up with something you could do in MS paint, but if that’s the perfect logo then does it matter?

I hired a contractor to remodel my house that I’m very happy with. He is always the highest bid. He gets the job done on time but charges 30% more than the rest. Guess what? I don’t care that I’m paying more because I know I won’t have to deal with change orders and excuses.

My friends might think I’m crazy, but in my mind I’m paying the extra 30% to minimize my stress. I’m sure other contractors are wondering how he charges so much and they can’t even win with the low bid. They prob think his clients are rich idiots or just stupid.

In reality, they don’t understand the psychology of buyers. It sounds like some of you have this same issue.

The absolute price doesn’t matter. It’s the perceived value to the customer you are pitching to. I mean I once paid $8 for a can of Coke. Why would I do that, I know a can is worth $0.50? It’s because I hadn’t had one in 7 days and this guy was selling them out of a cooler in the middle of a jungle!

The reason why Tesla spends a lot on a logo is because it's not the CEO who's doing the buying, it's some random employee who's been given a budget. It's his job to convince the ignorant shareholders how spending $100k on a logo is good for the company. The keyword here is ignorance.

The agencies selling logos for $100K are paying someone from India to do it for $100 and then keeping the rest of the money for themselves.
 

biophase

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There's a difference between 30% higher price, and 4-5x higher price...

Not really, the absolute amounts are the same if not more than you are talking about.

We went over that already... for a company that size it's a matter of prestige. They can't pay $10 for it, it's humiliating. What will their investors think? What will the public think about them? They need to project strength, so they hire a FAMOUS logo designer to do it for them, just like Apple did. Of course, they end up paying a huge premium to work with a famous designer, and then they can say "We had our logo designed by XYZ and paid 100K for it :D (unlike you losers with your worthless $1,000 logos) "

If you think it’s a matter of prestige then I don’t know what to say. You need to grow as your company grows. You can’t assess risk the same way. That’s why big firms get hired by big firms. It’s a matter of risk. Think about that for a second vs. the actual dollar amount.
 
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srodrigo

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To the OP: there are some forums golden rules, and one of them is don't question the sacred cows, regardless of whether you are right or not. That never goes well.

I don't know anything about the course itself, but people who took it said the sales part was good.

I don't like the selling websites business model at all though. Actually, I remember reading some post by Fox saying he built a job for himself. Now he's selling a course on how to build your own job, which is a better business model.

Selling websites doesn't scale too well as it's never ending, unless you manage to build an agency where you delegate most of it while still making a profit and spending little time, but it's still not recurring revenue exactly. Still better than selling actual applications though, as building websites doesn't require much technical skill (I'd argue HTML and CSS is not even 'coding'). Margins can be pretty high. The technical risks are pretty slim compared to selling an app of any kind and going down the rabbit whole of scope and estimates, which pretty much never go right. I've been a software dev for 10 years in all sorts of companies, and regardless of the skill of devs and project managers, clients are always a pain when building bespoke software. I avoid it like a plague and favour product development any time.

I'd rather get actual coding skills and build a SaaS, or any other kind of software product, which has a higher potential to detach yourself from your time. But I know some people are happy selling websites, so it's a matter of opinion. And selling websites can be a good starting point to replace your day job while still getting entrepreneurial skills that can be useful later, so still worth considering for some people.
 
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LaneMan

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See the pattern:

Is this legal?
No, damn!

Who's making big bucks?

Find examples & copy them.

Stay tuned for Laneman's next thread:

Best places to incorporate in order to avoid copyright prosecution?

I don't get it, what are you trying to say?
 

biophase

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The agencies selling logos for $100K are paying someone from India to do it for $100 and then keeping the rest of the money for themselves.

And that is how you run a business. :) I still think you are missing the whole point here.

I would love to get a $100k contract and then spend $100 on it and have them love the result.
 

LaneMan

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To the OP: there are some forums golden rules, and one of them is don't question the sacred cows, regardless of whether you are right or not. That never goes well.

I don't know anything about the course itself, but people who took it said the sales part was good.

I don't like the selling websites business model at all though. Actually, I remember reading some post by Fox saying he built a job for himself. Now he's selling a course on how to build your own job, which is a better business model.

Selling websites doesn't scale too well as it's never ending, unless you manage to build an agency where you delegate most of it while still making a profit and spending little time, but it's still not recurring revenue exactly. Still better than selling actual applications though, as building websites doesn't require much technical skill (I'd argue HTML and CSS is not even 'coding'). Margins can be pretty high. The technical risks are pretty slim compared to selling an app of any kind and going down the rabbit whole of scope and estimates, which pretty much never go right. I've been a software dev for 10 years in all sorts of companies, and regardless of the skill of devs and project managers, clients are always a pain when building bespoke software. I avoid it like a plague and favour product development any time.

I'd rather get actual coding skills and build a SaaS, or any other kind of software product, which has a higher potential to detach yourself from your time. But I know some people are happy selling websites, so it's a matter of opinion. And selling websites can be a good starting point to replace your day job while still getting entrepreneurial skills that can be useful later, so still worth considering for some people.

Yes I 100% agree with you there because you have to leverage your time to build websites. It's pretty much a job and not a business.

Right now I'm doing it to pay the bills until I find a good enough market need to solve.
 
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LaneMan

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And that is how you run a business. :) I still think you are missing the whole point here.

I would love to get a $100k contract and then spend $100 on it and have them love the result.

The guy from The Futur on youtube says he used to do that. Sell a logo for $80K then pay someone $2k to design it.

He doesn't even try to negotiate to get a discount, he pays the designer the FOOL price of $2k.

Anyone on Fiverr could design Tesla's logo for $5.
 

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The agencies selling logos for $100K are paying someone from India to do it for $100 and then keeping the rest of the money for themselves.
hey, that's my plan:rofl:
 

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@Black_Dragon43 you really need to work on your mindset and understanding of business.

To you it all seems like a scam or a trick and that comes from you not having an idea what real value is to a business. I can't show you differently (or anyone else) when your brain is jammed full of nonsense.

There is 100 limiting beliefs in your post above that you have built for yourself. It sucks but until you want you change your point of view you are just going to be posting the same nonsense on this thread as you do on dozens of other threads.
 

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Anyone on Fiverr could design Tesla's logo for $5.

Or - anyone on Fiverr has the technical skills to be working with massive clients like Tesla.

Yet they don't.

Why?
 
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Black_Dragon43

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@Black_Dragon43 you really need to work on your mindset and understanding of business.
lol, there we go again.

Look, there's nothing wrong with my mindset, I've scaled mid-six figures and run an organization that is actually spread on multiple entities for tax purposes. So I've done quite well. And it's certainly NOT due to mindset, although that is certainly part of it.

So keep the same game on - limiting beliefs, yadda yadda. It's so predictable. The same thing happens in MLM circles... the people who just join are told "You need to get rid of your limiting beliefs, that's why you're not as successful as this guy at the top of the pyramid"... come on man! I work in marketing, I know these tricks like the back of my hand!

I'm saying this for you now. Awhile ago you had a thread about scaling to 1M. I have a path forward to that with my agency in the next 1-2 years, will see if I get there. But I can tell you one thing: you'll never get there by chasing these 10K a pop websites.
 

LaneMan

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Or - anyone on Fiverr has the technical skills to be working with massive clients like Tesla.

Yet they don't.

Why?

That's an interesting point.

The quality is the same and yet the price much different.

I have to agree that there might be a mindset trick there.
 

Black_Dragon43

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Not really, the absolute amounts are the same if not more than you are talking about.
The absolute doesn't matter so much, since you'd be paying the bigger amount anyway. 100K vs 130K. You're risking 100K anyway. So 30K additional on that is only 30%. Not 4-5x... and by the looks of it Fox is more like 10x.

Anyway, it's just basic economics. A lot of people seem to confuse UTILITY with VALUE.

VALUE is not UTILITY.

VALUE = UTILITY - PRICE

So have a look below:

35150

This green triangle, that is VALUE. On the demand curve, you've got a lot of people like you who are willing to pay more than P for the product. So they get value out of it, since utility exceeds price.

35151

This is you, and delta q is 1, which is the quantity you want. You're willing to pay $8 for the coke because you really love it. Market price p = $0.50.

So coke could raise its price to $7.50, and you'd still buy - there is still VALUE there for you, but much less value. If coke could somehow raise the price of its product so that it is able to discriminate for each buyer, and charge a price equal to the utility that they get, then the value created is ZERO. They have effectively eliminated the value.

"Oh but they're charging as much as these things are worth to people" - that's not value. That's utility.

And hustlers and monopolists want to do that. They want to charge as much as a customer is willing to pay, namely the utility of the product for that customer. But that's not how value is created, and that's not the role of the entrepreneur. The role of the entrepreneur is to create new demand, expand the demand curve, lower the price, and bring more people into the market, and create greater value.
 
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Fox

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@Fox , sorry man, but that's just what you want to believe, and what you're telling yourself. It's just a story. The fact is, they are NOT worth $10K and they are not solving massive problems and creating a ton of value... If that's what solving massive problems looks like... lol

The reason why you're selling at those numbers is because you're selling to ignorant and naive people. That's the real secret here. It's not that you're solving massive problems.

And all the circumlocutions do nothing except drag the delusion forward.

I got in touch with an oil company.

They were struggling to sell. Maybe look at closing down. I agreed to help.

We set a budget at 7k.

I found out that a weak spot for them was presentations. They would have meetings and try to verbally explain everything and often they would run out of time to close the deal.

So I built a website that focused exactly on what would tie in well to their presentations. It showed a lot of past projects, it built a lot of trust, showed their experience and qualifications etc.

Site was technically very basic - just a few pages and a $20 theme.

Site goes live and within a few weeks they land a new $1,000,000 deal directly from the website. They had a meeting that didn't go well, they mentioned the website on the way out, and the potential client checked them out and decided to switch his mind and hire them.

You would look at that and say - well it is a basic website and a $20 theme. I'll change $500.

I charged 7k cause I priced it for what it did and that is how you run a profitable business based on value.

They are still great friends and love the website. They aren't "ignorant or naive" they just wanted to pay well for the problem to be fixed. Dude can you have bigger limiting beliefs about clients who pay good money???

You do have a lot of limiting beliefs but I can't help you cause you are projecting your own BS on me.
 

Black_Dragon43

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I got in touch with an oil company.

They were struggling to sell. Maybe look at closing down. I agreed to help.

We set a budget at 7k.

I found out that a weak spot for them was presentations. They would have meetings and try to verbally explain everything and often they would run out of time to close the deal.

So I built a website that focused exactly on what would tie in well to their presentations. It showed a lot of past projects, it built a lot of trust, showed their experience and qualifications etc.

Site was technically very basic - just a few pages and a $20 theme.

Site goes live and within a few weeks they land a new $1,000,000 deal directly from the website. They had a meeting that didn't go well, they mentioned the website on the way out, and the potential client checked them out and decided to switch his mind and hire them.

You would look at that and say - well it is a basic website and a $20 theme. I'll change $500.

I charged 7k cause I priced it for what it did and that is how you run a profitable business based on value.

They are still great friends and love the website. They aren't "ignorant or naive" they just wanted to pay well for the problem to be fixed. Dude can you have bigger limiting beliefs about clients who pay good money???

You do have a lot of limiting beliefs but I can't help you cause you are projecting your own BS on me.
Bro, your real role there wasn't creating the website. Your real role there was consulting with them and advising on their sales process, which you did, and found a way to improve that using their website. I'm sure you have more clients like that. But keep in mind that the real value didn't come from web design. You could have hired a guy in India to build their website, you just consulted with them, and they paid you 7K, you paid the guy in India $300. Would have been same result.

That is also very similar to stuff I do with my clients, by the way.
 

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