Some questions about web design

[Andy Black]

Based on your line of questioning, I suspect that you're looking for the wrong thing. If you look in the right place for the wrong thing, you could end up missing the real thing that would have helped you.

Shark's Teeth vs. Diamonds
A few years back, I went with some relatives to a place called Westmoreland State Park, where there are a ton of fossilized shark's teeth that you can find on the beach.

They're hard to spot at first. I remember feeling frustrated as I would stare at a section of the beach. It just looked like pebbles and sand to me. And then one of my cousins would reach down and pick up three shark's teeth from the exact spot where I had been looking for the last 10 minutes.

However, gradually, you get better at finding them. Once you've found a few, it's as if your brain expands. Suddenly, you can scan the ground and your brain instantly spots the unique shapes that match what you're looking for. Once this happens, you find them much faster.

The flip side of this is the fact that when you're looking for shark's teeth, you stop noticing ANYTHING else.

There could be gold or diamonds on the beach, but because your brain is scanning for shark's teeth, you're going to miss them.

Shark's teeth are great, and the really big ones are fun to find, but there's not much you can do with them except glue them to a piece of cardboard and frame them and put them on the wall. Whoopee.

Now imagine that you go to Crater of Diamonds State Park. But let's say you're still looking for shark's teeth.

Not only are you not going to find any shark's teeth, you're for sure going to miss the diamonds.

You're in the right place for a diamond. A diamond could be life-changing.

(I randomly saw an article about a guy who found a 9-carat diamond there 5 days ago. Super cool.)

But if the "pattern match" setting in your brain was calibrated for shark's teeth... bummer.


So here's where it seems to me like you are looking for the "wrong thing."








You can correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you want to see examples of the websites because you want to reverse engineer them. You want to see what's different about them compared to a basic site.

Maybe you can't fathom how a site could possibly charge $10k. Maybe you're picturing in your head that somehow, people "charge $10K for websites that are much simpler but supposedly has some copywriting and stuff to increase the client's conversions." Maybe it seems to you like some sort of trick.

So you don't feel like you can make a decision to enroll unless you can see examples of the work.

Now - there's nothing wrong with wondering, "Hey, what's the difference between a site that sells and provides value versus a site that doesn't?" That's a great question.

But you don't need Fox's examples to be able to decipher that. You don't need to enroll in anything. You don't need to pay anything.

All you need to do is go to clickbank, look at their offers that are converting the best, and study the best-performing ones.

Or look at companies that are advertising heavily over a prolonged time period, and study their landing pages. (Because no advertiser will continue to pour money into ads unless they're getting more money than they're spending. i.e. They're selling a lot.) Then, compare those landing pages to a few "average" or "typical" sites in the same industry.

You can get a ton of insight doing this, and it's a great exercise.

But let's cut to the chase: if you're subconsciously thinking to yourself, "If I can only decipher what makes a high-converting website, then I'll be able to make great money as a web designer," you're looking for the wrong thing.

You're looking for a shark's tooth in the crater of diamonds.

Because here's the thing.

The ability to make good money as a web designer doesn't start with knowing that you can build a high-converting website.

It starts with your potential client believing that you can solve a problem for them and agreeing to pay your asking rate.

In other words, it starts with your ability to...

• Identify that potential client
• Get in front of that potential client
• Sell your services to that potential client

And to be good at all that, you have to...

• Think like a business owner
• Know how to solve problems, create value, and sell results (not just build websites)
• Have the outreach skills to get a hearing and close the deal
• Have the mindset and habits to support your efforts

This is what Lex was talking about when he said,




But your ability to sell, at the end of the day, will be mostly inside your head. No one will be able to link to it. It'll be stuff like...

• Do you decide to procrastinate because of fear? Or do you decide to go ahead and call that business owner?
• Do you decide to quit when you face rejection? Or do you keep iterating and refining your pitch until you close a deal?
• Do you know how to keep your pipeline full so that you always have work?
• Do you know how to get inside the mind of your client's customer so that they want to buy?
• Do you have the skills to keep your prospect listening and interested in what you're saying?
• Do you have the discipline and the habits to manage your time and do the activities that move the needle?

Fox Web School won't be able to create a portfolio of the sales skill they impart to their students. But what they can do is point to the fact that their students are making good money by following the program. And they do that.

At the end of the day, if all you're looking for is, "What's the difference between a site that sells and provides value versus a site that doesn't," I'm sure you'll find that. And you don't need to join a program to figure that out.

But if what you really want is the ability to make good money in web design, just looking at the sites in Fox's portfolio is not going to get you there.


^^ A shorter way of saying everything above.


^^This

Great post @Bekit. Thanks for putting so much time and effort into writing it.

My main thoughts skimming this thread are:

1. WHAT is being done and WHY is more important than HOW.
   
   
2. I provide digital marketing services. I don't have a portfolio site. Heck, I don't even have a website. There's lots of ways to skin a cat.

 

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[GoodluckChuck]

I remember when I first got started in web design and I was going through Fox's course. I used to look through his portfolio quite often. I was looking for the same thing OP is. I was trying to reverse engineer how he was able to make that deal so I could do the same. Hell, I remember sending Fox an email letting him know I found a misspelled word. I thought that was so critical. Imagine my surprise a month later when the same word was still misspelled. Why didn't he fix it?

Maybe the reason is because it wasn't important enough. I was looking at the details on the website trying to figure out what made that site successful without knowing anything about the company behind the site or the customers they serve. I also didn't know what reasons the business owner had for hiring Fox or what struggles he had in the past that led up the moment he made the first payment. I was looking for the right things in the wrong place like Bekit said.

Here I am 4 years later and I don't even make portfolio pieces out of my deals anymore. I never found that they helped me close the deals I want to make. The 10k+ deals come from the clients needs and belief that I can fill those needs. They don't care very much about my portfolio because they can go directly to the source: Me.

The prospects that want to pour over my portfolio are usually looking to reverse engineer why they are successful or not but the reality is: If they knew the answers to those questions, they wouldn't need to hire me in the first place.

I think OP would do well to look at the students at FWS and try to understand what made them successful. I bet a few of them are even around for questioning. That's the source of the success, not the websites the school founder made long ago when he was still figuring out the web design business.

 

[LaneMan]

Great post @Bekit. Thanks for putting so much time and effort into writing it.

My main thoughts skimming this thread are:

1. WHAT is being done and WHY is more important than HOW.
   
   
2. I provide digital marketing services. I don't have a portfolio site. Heck, I don't even have a website. There's lots of ways to skin a cat.

I remember when I first got started in web design and I was going through Fox's course. I used to look through his portfolio quite often. I was looking for the same thing OP is. I was trying to reverse engineer how he was able to make that deal so I could do the same. Hell, I remember sending Fox an email letting him know I found a misspelled word. I thought that was so critical. Imagine my surprise a month later when the same word was still misspelled. Why didn't he fix it?

Maybe the reason is because it wasn't important enough. I was looking at the details on the website trying to figure out what made that site successful without knowing anything about the company behind the site or the customers they serve. I also didn't know what reasons the business owner had for hiring Fox or what struggles he had in the past that led up the moment he made the first payment. I was looking for the right things in the wrong place like Bekit said.

Here I am 4 years later and I don't even make portfolio pieces out of my deals anymore. I never found that they helped me close the deals I want to make. The 10k+ deals come from the clients needs and belief that I can fill those needs. They don't care very much about my portfolio because they can go directly to the source: Me.

The prospects that want to pour over my portfolio are usually looking to reverse engineer why they are successful or not but the reality is: If they knew the answers to those questions, they wouldn't need to hire me in the first place.

I think OP would do well to look at the students at FWS and try to understand what made them successful. I bet a few of them are even around for questioning. That's the source of the success, not the websites the school founder made long ago when he was still figuring out the web design business.

That's the thing that's a complete mystery to me because a ton of prospects told me stuff like "You don't even have a portfolio, why should I hire you?". I lost all of the deals where prospects asked about my portfolio when I didn't have anything to show.

How exactly can you make a client believe that you can fill his needs without any kind of proof?

A client of mine wanted photography services and I shopped around for him. The first thing I did was look at the photographer's portfolio and hired the one with the best looking shots. Now, if a photographer tried to sell me his services without showing any of his previous works then I'd 100% never hire him.

I really don't understand what you guys are doing differently to be honest.

 

[Fiftytwos]

That's the thing that's a complete mystery to me because a ton of prospects told me stuff like "You don't even have a portfolio, why should I hire you?". I lost all of the deals where prospects asked about my portfolio when I didn't have anything to show.

How exactly can you make a client believe that you can fill his needs without any kind of proof?

A client of mine wanted photography services and I shopped around for him. The first thing I did was look at the photographer's portfolio and hired the one with the best looking shots. Now, if a photographer tried to sell me his services without showing any of his previous works then I'd 100% never hire him.

I really don't understand what you guys are doing differently to be honest.

After reading this post I immediately thought of something Fox had told me before. I asked him a question like this on one of the live calls in his course (I've been a member for the past month or so). I'm gonna pass this question onto you so you can think about it the same way I did.

"If your car was broken down on the side of the road and someone stopped to help you would you ask them how many cars they've fixed, or if they're qualified to help you, or would you be grateful they stopped, and took time out of their day to help you with your problem and get you back on the road?"

This question was a gamechanger for me, and really helps clarify that imposter syndrome you feel when first starting out. If you can help someone with the problems they're having then they're much more likely to trust you, they trust you based on how you talk to them, the things you understand, the questions you ask them, and much more. You build a relationship with that prospect / customer not based on your portfolio, or past works, but based on how you present yourself, how you frame yourself as the expert and act like you're qualified. When you do this most people will not question your status, but will want to know how you can help them (if they need the help). I hope this helps put things into perspective, I found it very valuable.

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Fox is the real deal, and so is his course.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Based on your line of questioning, I suspect that you're looking for the wrong thing. If you look in the right place for the wrong thing, you could end up missing the real thing that would have helped you.

Shark's Teeth vs. Diamonds
A few years back, I went with some relatives to a place called Westmoreland State Park, where there are a ton of fossilized shark's teeth that you can find on the beach.

They're hard to spot at first. I remember feeling frustrated as I would stare at a section of the beach. It just looked like pebbles and sand to me. And then one of my cousins would reach down and pick up three shark's teeth from the exact spot where I had been looking for the last 10 minutes.

However, gradually, you get better at finding them. Once you've found a few, it's as if your brain expands. Suddenly, you can scan the ground and your brain instantly spots the unique shapes that match what you're looking for. Once this happens, you find them much faster.

The flip side of this is the fact that when you're looking for shark's teeth, you stop noticing ANYTHING else.

There could be gold or diamonds on the beach, but because your brain is scanning for shark's teeth, you're going to miss them.

Shark's teeth are great, and the really big ones are fun to find, but there's not much you can do with them except glue them to a piece of cardboard and frame them and put them on the wall. Whoopee.

Now imagine that you go to Crater of Diamonds State Park. But let's say you're still looking for shark's teeth.

Not only are you not going to find any shark's teeth, you're for sure going to miss the diamonds.

You're in the right place for a diamond. A diamond could be life-changing.

(I randomly saw an article about a guy who found a 9-carat diamond there 5 days ago. Super cool.)

But if the "pattern match" setting in your brain was calibrated for shark's teeth... bummer.


So here's where it seems to me like you are looking for the "wrong thing."








You can correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you want to see examples of the websites because you want to reverse engineer them. You want to see what's different about them compared to a basic site.

Maybe you can't fathom how a site could possibly charge $10k. Maybe you're picturing in your head that somehow, people "charge $10K for websites that are much simpler but supposedly has some copywriting and stuff to increase the client's conversions." Maybe it seems to you like some sort of trick.

So you don't feel like you can make a decision to enroll unless you can see examples of the work.

Now - there's nothing wrong with wondering, "Hey, what's the difference between a site that sells and provides value versus a site that doesn't?" That's a great question.

But you don't need Fox's examples to be able to decipher that. You don't need to enroll in anything. You don't need to pay anything.

All you need to do is go to clickbank, look at their offers that are converting the best, and study the best-performing ones.

Or look at companies that are advertising heavily over a prolonged time period, and study their landing pages. (Because no advertiser will continue to pour money into ads unless they're getting more money than they're spending. i.e. They're selling a lot.) Then, compare those landing pages to a few "average" or "typical" sites in the same industry.

You can get a ton of insight doing this, and it's a great exercise.

But let's cut to the chase: if you're subconsciously thinking to yourself, "If I can only decipher what makes a high-converting website, then I'll be able to make great money as a web designer," you're looking for the wrong thing.

You're looking for a shark's tooth in the crater of diamonds.

Because here's the thing.

The ability to make good money as a web designer doesn't start with knowing that you can build a high-converting website.

It starts with your potential client believing that you can solve a problem for them and agreeing to pay your asking rate.

In other words, it starts with your ability to...

• Identify that potential client
• Get in front of that potential client
• Sell your services to that potential client

And to be good at all that, you have to...

• Think like a business owner
• Know how to solve problems, create value, and sell results (not just build websites)
• Have the outreach skills to get a hearing and close the deal
• Have the mindset and habits to support your efforts

This is what Lex was talking about when he said,




But your ability to sell, at the end of the day, will be mostly inside your head. No one will be able to link to it. It'll be stuff like...

• Do you decide to procrastinate because of fear? Or do you decide to go ahead and call that business owner?
• Do you decide to quit when you face rejection? Or do you keep iterating and refining your pitch until you close a deal?
• Do you know how to keep your pipeline full so that you always have work?
• Do you know how to get inside the mind of your client's customer so that they want to buy?
• Do you have the skills to keep your prospect listening and interested in what you're saying?
• Do you have the discipline and the habits to manage your time and do the activities that move the needle?

Fox Web School won't be able to create a portfolio of the sales skill they impart to their students. But what they can do is point to the fact that their students are making good money by following the program. And they do that.

At the end of the day, if all you're looking for is, "What's the difference between a site that sells and provides value versus a site that doesn't," I'm sure you'll find that. And you don't need to join a program to figure that out.

But if what you really want is the ability to make good money in web design, just looking at the sites in Fox's portfolio is not going to get you there.


^^ A shorter way of saying everything above.


^^This

Legendary, makes me miss the REP button.

 

[BizyDad]

That's the thing that's a complete mystery to me because a ton of prospects told me stuff like "You don't even have a portfolio, why should I hire you?". I lost all of the deals where prospects asked about my portfolio when I didn't have anything to show.

Oh my goodness, this is the easiest problem to overcome. IF, I stress if, you need to build a portfolio, find three people who need a website and do it for free. If this is really that important to you, you should have done this by now. I haven't taken the course, but I think this solution is actually presented in there.

but to be honest, I've been selling websites for 10 years, I could count on one hand the number of times somebody asked for a portfolio. Almost all of it happened in my first year of sales, and I think it happened for one reason. The person didn't trust me.

Something in my presentation screamed "rookie".

See once I got some confidence in my company's abilities to deliver, and my ability to go through a sales process, I started asking better questions, focusing on the problems that really need to be solved, and then confidently presenting actual solution. and whenever they ask questions of me, I didn't stammer through the responses, I didn't look down and try and come up with answers. I looked them in the eye and told them what I thought would work.

With a little experience under my belt, I figured out the process to identify the real needs, people stopped asking for portfolio. I think it's happened twice in the last nine years, both times because I was selling a bigger corporation and the person needed something to show their boss.

 

[Bekit]

Legendary, makes me miss the REP button.

I miss it, tooo!!!! I owe rep to so many people.

Any chance we could bring it back?

Thank you for the high praise. It means a lot, coming from you.

 

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[Andy Black]

I’ve never been asked for a portfolio by any business owner I spoke to.

I’ve occasionally been asked for a portfolio by marketing managers working for the business owner funnily enough, but even that’s only been a couple of time - in 10 years.

It could be because I tell loads of stories as we’re talking. Or it could be because I speak peer to peer and am not trying to make a sale.

I must get round to creating a website for myself.

 

[Raoul Duke]

I really don't understand what you guys are doing differently to be honest.

Rework your mentality.

That is why they are selling $10K+ websites and you are not.

Have you even started?

 

[The-J]

but to be honest, I've been selling websites for 10 years, I could count on one hand the number of times somebody asked for a portfolio. Almost all of it happened in my first year of sales, and I think it happened for one reason. The person didn't trust me.

/thread

The less they trust you, the more proof they need. For some people, no amount of proof is enough. That's fine: they probably weren't going to be very good clients anyway as they would question your every move.

Most clients just need proof of results and proof that you know what you're talking about. A savvy client will be able to get on the phone with you and know right away whether or not you understand their business and their needs.

 

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[Andy Black]

After reading this post I immediately thought of something Fox had told me before. I asked him a question like this on one of the live calls in his course (I've been a member for the past month or so). I'm gonna pass this question onto you so you can think about it the same way I did. "If your car was broken down on the side of the road and someone stopped to help you would you ask them how many cars they've fixed, or if they're qualified to help you, or would you be grateful they stopped, and took time out of their day to help you with your problem and get you back on the road?" This question was a gamechanger for me, and really helps clarify that imposter syndrome you feel when first starting out. If you can help someone with the problems they're having then they're much more likely to trust you, they trust you based on how you talk to them, the things you understand, the questions you ask them, and much more. You build a relationship with that prospect / customer not based on your portfolio, or past works, but based on how you present yourself, how you frame yourself as the expert and act like you're qualified. When you do this most people will not question your status, but will want to know how you can help them (if they need the help). I hope this helps put things into perspective, I found it very valuable. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Fox is the real deal, and so is his course.

Similarly, I’ve been on business courses where all attendees introduce themselves and their business before the course starts.

“Hi. My name is Andy. I do those little ads on Google.”

That’s it.

It’s enough though, that someone usually sidles over to me at the coffee break to ask a few questions about their wife’s wedding dress business or whatever.

I just said what I did. I didn’t even have to say how long I’d been doing it, who I did it for, or show how good I am.

 

[LaneMan]

After reading this post I immediately thought of something Fox had told me before. I asked him a question like this on one of the live calls in his course (I've been a member for the past month or so). I'm gonna pass this question onto you so you can think about it the same way I did.

"If your car was broken down on the side of the road and someone stopped to help you would you ask them how many cars they've fixed, or if they're qualified to help you, or would you be grateful they stopped, and took time out of their day to help you with your problem and get you back on the road?"

This question was a gamechanger for me, and really helps clarify that imposter syndrome you feel when first starting out. If you can help someone with the problems they're having then they're much more likely to trust you, they trust you based on how you talk to them, the things you understand, the questions you ask them, and much more. You build a relationship with that prospect / customer not based on your portfolio, or past works, but based on how you present yourself, how you frame yourself as the expert and act like you're qualified. When you do this most people will not question your status, but will want to know how you can help them (if they need the help). I hope this helps put things into perspective, I found it very valuable.

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Fox is the real deal, and so is his course.

Similarly, I’ve been on business courses where all attendees introduce themselves and their business before the course starts.

“Hi. My name is Andy. I do those little ads on Google.”

That’s it.

It’s enough though, that someone usually sidles over to me at the coffee break to ask a few questions about their wife’s wedding dress business or whatever.

I just said what I did. I didn’t even have to say how long I’d been doing it, who I did it for, or show how good I am.

So it's a matter of prospecting and finding the right kind of clients then. Interesting.

Rework your mentality.

That is why they are selling $10K+ websites and you are not.

Have you even started?

These kind of replies are completely useless.

Rework your mentality. BAM, now I can sell $10K+ websites. Seriously, why even reply?

 

[EN_VY]

I've seen some of Fox's websites, and they are very basic ( no offense, the look like every other template). He has to be a great sales person that knows how to present. Do I think his websites are worth 10k? Not at all but he knows how to communicate to make them worth that much. The websites themselves lack the technical aspect to be able to really drive up sales for a business.

Now with that said, getting 5 or 10k for a website is not far fecthed. I've done it myself. For years I would charge 900-2000 for a fully optimized, custom website. My problem the whole time is that I was stuck in a loop where I would get referrals where everyone wanted the same price tage. Even though my skillset had gone up from where I had started.

I since have started working with businesses who understand what a website can do for them, and who have the budget to pay. I choose who I want to work with. When you start off and when you need money, it's hard to turn down clients but the longer you stay working with small budget clients, the harder it is to move up.

 

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[EN_VY]

What looks good and what actually get results aren't always the same thing.

...and if you got to pick one focus on what actually matters to the business at the end of the day.

Why not do both? Create a badass website that looks awesome and unique and also drive sales. Take a look at Scorpion Internet Marketing. And I don't care what anyone says, good design is part of presentation which drives more sales.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

All you need to do is go to clickbank, look at their offers that are converting the best, and study the best-performing ones.

Clickbank only represents a certain KIND/TYPE of products. So it's mistaken to think that what works for the Clickbank type of products is going to work for other kinds of products or services. Clickbank is full of products that are sold well by direct response marketing. Magic teas, weight loss, money-making press a button systems, and so on. I'd say MOST people aren't selling these products.

I've seen some of Fox's websites, and they are very basic ( no offense, the look like every other template). He has to be a great sales person that knows how to present. Do I think his websites are worth 10k? Not at all but he knows how to communicate to make them worth that much. The websites themselves lack the technical aspect to be able to really drive up sales for a business.

Which doesn't surprise me. There is a growing number of high-ticket agency/freelancers that charge high-ticket but don't know what it actually takes to truly deliver at that quality of service. These people are all pumped up on "mindset" which gets put on a pedestal in this thread, but little on the actual mechanics of what it takes to make your client successful. The result? One-off high-ticket sales to idiots who are prone to buy. Those clients never work with them again.

Then they wonder why they can't make more than 100K. One single good client can be worth $300K+ in marketing if you know what you're doing and succeed in obtaining results for them. There is a great shortage of people who truly understand the mechanics of business and truly help their clients beyond any one particular area of expertise.

So my focus is always the opposite. Learn the mechanics of what leads to success, figure mindset later. Otherwise you don't have a solid foundation on which to build, and you put a cap on what you can achieve.

 

[LaneMan]

I've seen some of Fox's websites, and they are very basic ( no offense, the look like every other template). He has to be a great sales person that knows how to present. Do I think his websites are worth 10k? Not at all but he knows how to communicate to make them worth that much. The websites themselves lack the technical aspect to be able to really drive up sales for a business.

Now with that said, getting 5 or 10k for a website is not far fecthed. I've done it myself. For years I would charge 900-2000 for a fully optimized, custom website. My problem the whole time is that I was stuck in a loop where I would get referrals where everyone wanted the same price tage. Even though my skillset had gone up from where I had started.

I since have started working with businesses who understand what a website can do for them, and who have the budget to pay. I choose who I want to work with. When you start off and when you need money, it's hard to turn down clients but the longer you stay working with small budget clients, the harder it is to move up.

Can you talk a little more about how u went from budget clients to better ones? Im stuck in the same loop right now.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

Can you talk a little more about how u went from budget clients to better ones?

It's simple. Typically the way it happened for my first high-ticket clients (this is 3 years ago or so), is that I did a small job for them, which delivered great results, then they were confident enough to bring me to bigger projects. They also saw that they may pay me a lot, but I become the equivalent of a business partner for them, and they simply cannot find anyone else like me. I own an agency now, but I can code, I can do security for a website, I can design, I can write copy, I can run ads - pretty much alone I am the full-packet. And obviously, I can advise them on all that, including managing people. Very few people like this, but a ton of specialists. But I've been working day and night to get this good. Literarily.

After that, referrals, re-activating old clients, cold outreach to strategic clients on the precipice of needing my services. There was a hard time for me from April to July this year (scaled down from 6 to 2 employees), August was the best month of the year, and September was actually the best month ever, in an entirely re-organized biz.

Basically - do your best work, regardless of the money, and the money will come. It may not be as fast as these "mindset" guys, but while you'll be a millionaire, they'll still be making 100K. The main reason why these people can't make more, is because try as they might, they simply LACK THE SKILLS in the MECHANICS of business. The only way to make up for that is to find an idiot who will dish out some money once, and that's it. Next.

I will add that, you also need to choose your clients wisely. If you work for idiots or sucky businessmen (and there are a lot of them), you're going to struggle. Because these people can't make money themselves. They're either too lazy, they expect people to do stuff for them, they don't want to learn, and so on. A real entrepreneur is driven, like a beast. They will learn what it takes, do what it takes, spend as much time as it takes. That's the people who you want to work with. Who are ambitious, have a clear understanding of where they are, and where they want to go, and driven to succeed.

And no insult to anyone, but frankly most of these people you won't find on a forum, because they tend to be too busy working on their projects, and the vast majority of them don't like talking about stuff as we do. The reason I'm here is because I am a student of business. I love learning and sharing with other people. I love discussing ideas, and I like understanding things. There are some people like me here. There are also a whole host of people here who are here for the community - they may not be the best or the brightest in business, but they have good self-esteem and enjoy sharing their journey and learning from others - they're also typically not very ambitious. There are also some here who love to show off (oh look at me, I made 1M - a lot of these threads - don't confuse these people with the most ambitious). You have to be careful who you learn from, and who you leave just for the social aspect of the forum.

 

[Fox]

Looking at a website after it is done and trying to gauge how much it is worth is not so accurate. It’s just a theme and some text - hey I could do that easy.

It is like looking at a 10k or 100k logo and saying “hey I could design that in photoshop in a few minutes”. What you miss is all the “why” and instead just see the how.

A website fits into a business as a solution to a problem. The actual solution is usually not that hard - it was knowing what was the problem in the first place.

This is another reason I don’t share sites - people look at what it technically is, not what it actually did.

 

[LaneMan]

It's simple. Typically the way it happened for my first high-ticket clients (this is 3 years ago or so), is that I did a small job for them, which delivered great results, then they were confident enough to bring me to bigger projects. They also saw that they may pay me a lot, but I become the equivalent of a business partner for them, and they simply cannot find anyone else like me. I own an agency now, but I can code, I can do security for a website, I can design, I can write copy, I can run ads - pretty much alone I am the full-packet. And obviously, I can advise them on all that, including managing people. Very few people like this, but a ton of specialists. But I've been working day and night to get this good. Literarily.

After that, referrals, re-activating old clients, cold outreach to strategic clients on the precipice of needing my services. There was a hard time for me from April to July this year (scaled down from 6 to 2 employees), August was the best month of the year, and September was actually the best month ever, in an entirely re-organized biz.

Basically - do your best work, regardless of the money, and the money will come. It may not be as fast as these "mindset" guys, but while you'll be a millionaire, they'll still be making 100K. The main reason why these people can't make more, is because try as they might, they simply LACK THE SKILLS in the MECHANICS of business. The only way to make up for that is to find an idiot who will dish out some money once, and that's it. Next.

Very nice. Im currently overdelivering as well but i need clients who dont take my work for granted.

People pay me to make websites that they dont even use and it breaks my heart because i really want to see them succeed thanks to the amount of effort i put into delivering them my work.

 

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[Andy Black]

The websites themselves lack the technical aspect to be able to really drive up sales for a business.

I'm not a web developer/designer. What technical aspect really drives up sales for a business?

 

[LaneMan]

I'm not a web developer/designer. What technical aspect really drives up sales for a business?

I believe it would be good ux, and copywriting. Probably some seo too, to drive traffic.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

It is like looking at a 10k or 100k logo and saying “hey I could design that in photoshop in a few minutes”. What you miss is all the “why” and instead just see the how.

A website fits into a business as a solution to a problem. The actual solution is usually not that hard - it was knowing what was the problem in the first place.

A firm who pays 100K for a logo, doesn't need to pay that much. It's a prestige thing... we're Apple, how can we pay less than that? We're big and powerful, we're the best, we have to flex. Also, typically, the people making that decision don't spend their own money.

So they work with someone FAMOUS to do that, and pay 100K (XYZ created our logo...)

But, to be honest, you have to be a bit of an idiot as a businessman if you pay more than 500-1,000 for a logo. Yes, the specialists are everywhere telling you how their logo is so much better, and why it's really worth that... I've listened to that crap soooooo many times from designers. The most I ever paid for a logo, which wasn't even for me, was $300.

Im currently overdelivering as well but i need clients who dont take my work for granted.

People pay me to make websites that they dont even use and it breaks my heart because i really want to see them succeed thanks to the amount of effort i put into delivering them my work.

Yeah, you're working with the wrong type of clients. These people are lazy man. They're not even USING the websites you're building for them. I mean can you imagine that? They're basically treating you like disposable garbage.

You need clients who have a clear vision, and you need to use your expertise about websites and how they work to help them make the RIGHT decisions in order to meet their business goals. You have to advise them - how should they use the website? What do they need to do? Can you help them with something else? Can you link them up with someone who can? You need to find ambitious clients, with clear goals.

Then you need to advise them... advise them about website security, and why they need it. Advise them about why they want a CDN, and set one up for free with Cloudflare for them. Teach them how to optimize their images and ensure good loading speed. Tell them how you'll set up security in the .htaccess file to make sure no sensitive part of their website can be accessed. And so on.

 

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[EN_VY]

Can you talk a little more about how u went from budget clients to better ones? Im stuck in the same loop right now.

I have a lot fo websites under my belt. It's MUCH easier to pitch to a new client

Clickbank only represents a certain KIND/TYPE of products. So it's mistaken to think that what works for the Clickbank type of products is going to work for other kinds of products or services. Clickbank is full of products that are sold well by direct response marketing. Magic teas, weight loss, money-making press a button systems, and so on. I'd say MOST people aren't selling these products.


Which doesn't surprise me. There is a growing number of high-ticket agency/freelancers that charge high-ticket but don't know what it actually takes to truly deliver at that quality of service. These people are all pumped up on "mindset" which gets put on a pedestal in this thread, but little on the actual mechanics of what it takes to make your client successful. The result? One-off high-ticket sales to idiots who are prone to buy. Those clients never work with them again.

Then they wonder why they can't make more than 100K. One single good client can be worth $300K+ in marketing if you know what you're doing and succeed in obtaining results for them. There is a great shortage of people who truly understand the mechanics of business and truly help their clients beyond any one particular area of expertise.

So my focus is always the opposite. Learn the mechanics of what leads to success, figure mindset later. Otherwise you don't have a solid foundation on which to build, and you put a cap on what you can achieve.

I agree. Most clients end up doing more work after launching a website.

 

[EN_VY]

Can you talk a little more about how u went from budget clients to better ones? Im stuck in the same loop right now.

Team up with someone who already has connections with these clients. It could be a print shop, an embroidery shop, etc. Give them a percentage for referrals. But make sure you have your business straight before. Make sure you already know how much you'll charge, make sure you can actually produce good work. Or else things won't work. If you already have a solid portfolio, run some Google ads but make sure everything is right on your own website, or you can lose money quick.

 

[EN_VY]

I'm not a web developer/designer. What technical aspect really drives up sales for a business?

Not sure if you are trolling. If I recall, you have a Google Ads course? How about speed? If the website loads slow a user will exit. There goes your click and however much that click cost. That's just 1 technical aspect.

 

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[Raoul Duke]

These kind of replies are completely useless.

Rework your mentality. BAM, now I can sell $10K+ websites. Seriously, why even reply?

You are just a douchebag. Why start this thread? You have a rebuttal to every question thrown at you.

 

[Fox]

I've seen some of Fox's websites, and they are very basic ( no offense, the look like every other template). He has to be a great sales person that knows how to present. Do I think his websites are worth 10k? Not at all but he knows how to communicate to make them worth that much. The websites themselves lack the technical aspect to be able to really drive up sales for a business.

Alright just catching up on this thread properly and this comment is total nonsense.

They aren't worth 10k cause I run some sales magic - they are worth 10k or a lot more because they solve massive problems and create a ton of value. This isn't about creating hype - when you charge large amounts for a website there is clear win-win reason. 10k or 20k might sound large to you but it is still just a fraction of the value you are creating for the client (if done right).

If you don't get it - that is on you.

A lot of people in this thread are limited by their own experience. "I have only paid $300 for a logo so why would someone pay over a $1000?". Meanwhile a big business who has to then use that new logo on their stationary, their trucks, their offices, their shirts etc - they are NOT going to want to risk anything. That logo means a lot to them and they want it done right. They are happy to pay big money to have it done right the first time. Even just rolling out the new logo is already going to cost them a lot - why lowball so they can save a few dollars upfront? This is how a logo can easily be worth 10k.

Quick example: A medium-large delivery truck business
"Let's change our logo..."
Cost of wrapping 10 delivery trucks with new graphics: $15,000
Cost of changing all company clothes with new logo: $10,000
Cost of printing all new marketing and sales material: $20,000

But they should spend $300 on the logo to save some money? lol!

Again - don't be limited by your perspectives of working with some cheap clients on UpWork.

Just cause some personal trainer will only pay $200 for a logo doesn't mean others won't pay a lot more. Real businesses drop big money all the time to see even small gains in sales or results. When you step into their perspective it starts to make a lot more sense how $10,000 or $20,000 or even 50-100k is sometimes not that much if they get what they were after.

What might look simple to you was very important for them and worth paying a lot to have been done right.

Think bigger.

Main point: when you are a big business and there is a lot on the line you aren't going to mess around with trying to get a bargain. You need someone who gets it and who can deliver. You need someone who isn't just thinking technical and design - you want someone focused on understanding your exact problem and having the right solution to fix it.

When you look at a website as a third party you don't know what their problem was. You don't know what was holding them back. You don't know what they needed to move forward to the next level. All you see if a finished design and some text. It looks simple cause it is finished. But you don't see what problems were solved and how much they were worth - you only see the surface.

Example: Obama's 2012 website. I am not an Obama fan but look at what a very basic website was worth to him... Obama 2012

Anyone with some coding experiences could technically build that website. But what was it worth to him? Keep in mind it "increased donation conversions by 49%"

"He was the first candidate ever to receive $1 billion in donations, of which an incredible $690 million was raised digitally. (source: Time Magazine)"

$500? $5,000? $500,000? It helped win him an election and got him millions in donations.
Do you charge for what it takes to technically build it or what it is worth to him???

Look it is a free market and for you guys who are stuck at charging $100-$1,000 then that is your call. But there is no reason you have to be. There are millions of large businesses who are happy to pay a LOT more if you can just understand their problems and show you can help solve them. To do this you don't need some crazy technical website - you just need basic skills applied well.

----

Actually I will post one of my website but that will be it.

Barsplice Products, Inc. - Engineered mechanical splice systems

BarSplice Products, Inc. offers customers' a broad range of engineered mechanical splice systems for the benefit of the reinforced concrete construction industry. By means of market leadership, sales expertise and worldwide distribution, we consistently provide customer-focused solutions that...

barsplice.com

(This will probably just end up showing why I don't post real website links.)

This is a huge manufacturing business. They have worked with top clients like Amazon.
They needed a website to help boost sales and better show what they can offer.

I charged a very good amount for this website. Enough to travel for a year at the time. BUT they got an even better deal - a website like this can help bring in millions over the years and can be a massive part of their sales machine.

---

To wrap all this up I would say you have a choice:

1) use your skills to help smaller clients with small problems and small budgets.

2) or use your skills to go work with the biggest clients you can and help solve massive problems that mean a lot to them.

Same skills but far different result. The choice is in your mind and the market is on there on both sides.

For people who actually want to go big and aren't afraid to up their prices then if you want you can check out the school. If you are stuck thinking "a business owner is an idiot if they pay over $500" then best of luck - you will end up creating that reality for yourself.

 

[LaneMan]

I will add that, you also need to choose your clients wisely. If you work for idiots or sucky businessmen (and there are a lot of them), you're going to struggle. Because these people can't make money themselves. They're either too lazy, they expect people to do stuff for them, they don't want to learn, and so on. A real entrepreneur is driven, like a beast. They will learn what it takes, do what it takes, spend as much time as it takes. That's the people who you want to work with. Who are ambitious, have a clear understanding of where they are, and where they want to go, and driven to succeed.

Yeah, you're working with the wrong type of clients. These people are lazy man. They're not even USING the websites you're building for them. I mean can you imagine that? They're basically treating you like disposable garbage.

You need clients who have a clear vision, and you need to use your expertise about websites and how they work to help them make the RIGHT decisions in order to meet their business goals. You have to advise them - how should they use the website? What do they need to do? Can you help them with something else? Can you link them up with someone who can? You need to find ambitious clients, with clear goals.

Then you need to advise them... advise them about website security, and why they need it. Advise them about why they want a CDN, and set one up for free with Cloudflare for them. Teach them how to optimize their images and ensure good loading speed. Tell them how you'll set up security in the .htaccess file to make sure no sensitive part of their website can be accessed. And so on.

Yea that's exactly my problem. I think I need to prospect more, then I can get lucky and find better clients.

During my last sales call I offered the client SEO because he wanted more visibility and I gave him as estimate of about 100 visitors per month from google search. Basically, 100 visitors who are specifically looking to buy the stuff he's selling. His profit margin was huge so getting like 5 of these visitors to convert would cover the cost of the website. Then he told me: "So, I will have to talk to 100 people every month? This sounds tiring. Let me ask my wife about it first."

@LaneMan, how much do you think I'd pay for a website like mine?

I'm not sure because it depends on where you live and who you talk to. Since it's a Wordpress theme and you're a smart guy, you'd get someone on fiverr to do it for like $200. There's a few bugs here and there, for example, the Getting Started button's background color is blending with the text. On the about and contact pages, the font weight is too bold, it makes the text hard to read.

I have a lot fo websites under my belt. It's MUCH easier to pitch to a new client

Yea but when you have a lot of bad clients and you show that to a bigger clients, it's the same as not having a portfolio because bigger business can't relate to these lazy clients and will probably not want to associate himself with you to not risk his reputation.

Why start this thread?

To start a discussion of course. Thanks to my thread, we got some really fruitful and actionable replies.

Then people like you come around with a frown on their face and yelling "WHY ARE YOU MAKING LESS THAN 10K? GET OUT OF HERE, THIS IS A FORUM FOR MILLIONAIRES ONLY!"

How about helping instead of criticizing?

 

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[LaneMan]

2) or use your skills to go work with the biggest clients you can and help solve massive problems that mean a lot to them.

So it is simply a matter of picking up the phone and prospecting all day until you are able to qualify some "real clients" then.

 

[Fox]

So it is simply a matter of picking up the phone and prospecting all day until you are able to qualify some "real clients" then.

No. That is not how it is done.

I got a dozen threads on here and a Youtube channel with 100s of hours of free content on how to get started. I have answered that question 100s of times.

We even talked about this exact thing specifically it in the video you supposably watched in your first post. Like that exact question was answered in a ton of detail.

Here is another link...