Some questions about web design

[Black_Dragon43]

Bro, your real role there wasn't creating the website. Your real role there was consulting with them and advising on their sales process, which you did, and found a way to improve that using their website.

And if this is what you do, why don't you call it that? I mean, you could expand way beyond web design, just like I did. You have the brains to solve sales problems for these people, why restrict yourself to solutions that involve a website? You could help many more businesses by learning the full marketing spectrum and then advising them - regardless of what they need, you'd then have a solution for them. And hire out the designing/development part... your time is better spent on strategy.

 

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[LaneMan]

I got in touch with an oil company.

They were struggling to sell. Maybe look at closing down. I agreed to help.

We set a budget at 7k.

I found out that a weak spot for them was presentations. They would have meetings and try to verbally explain everything and often they would run out of time to close the deal.

So I built a website that focused exactly on what would tie in well to their presentations. It showed a lot of past projects, it built a lot of trust, showed their experience and qualifications etc.

Site was technically very basic - just a few pages and a $20 theme.

Site goes live and within a few weeks they land a new $1,000,000 deal directly from the website. They had a meeting that didn't go well, they mentioned the website on the way out, and the potential client checked them out and decided to switch his mind and hire them.

You would look at that and say - well it is a basic website and a $20 theme. I'll change $500.

I charged 7k cause I priced it for what it did and that is how you run a profitable business based on value.

They are still great friends and love the website. They aren't "ignorant or naive" they just wanted to pay well for the problem to be fixed. Dude can you have bigger limiting beliefs about clients who pay good money???

You do have a lot of limiting beliefs but I can't help you cause you are projecting your own BS on me.

One thing Chris said during your interview was that if a client comes to him asking for a $10K website and he knows that the clients only needs a $2K website, he's gonna give the client a $2K website.

I'm not sure how he judges the value of a website.

 

[Fox]

Anyone who genuinely wants web help - make a thread on here and tag me in.
Always happy to help and reply to real progress threads. This thread is just a dumpster fire at this point.

@Black_Dragon43 - save me the 100 point crayon sketch reply.

You have done this with about 12 other members on this forum recently to bring attention to yourself and your funnel whatever you sell for $197 $147.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

When you just pass it on and have some random freelancer do the project that speaks to exactly your mindset when selling and pricing. For you sales is hype and a trick.

LOL! Calm down mate. Did I ever say I pass the strategy on to others? Absolutely not.

However, my time is better spent creating the strategy and then verifying it after it gets implemented, than executing it myself.

And what I do differently from you is that I can actually advise on a lot more than just websites. And I'm sure you could too. I don't understand why you want to restrict yourself to web design, or even call yourself a web designer.

So you seem to have some hatred for me there, I have none for you. I even liked your post, because it was good, only that you weren't doing "web design", but more like "consulting".

As for selling my stuff - what does that have to do with a thread on consulting and getting results for business owners, which is what we were discussing? My revenue out of that stuff is less than 1% in the last month, by the way. So it's not that significant for me, I do however want to grow it.

If you were less sensitive, maybe you'd be farther down the road than you are now. These discussions are actually very productive, if you keep an open mind and want to learn something. Conflict leads to growth... nodding heads leads to stagnation.

 

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[LaneMan]

And yes, you could have just created a wireframe design which encapsulated your strategy, passed it on to India, seen the result, did some adjustments yourself if necessary, pass it on to the client, do some more adjustments if needed = same result. So don't bullshit. It's not the web design that is the value.

It's definitely the consulting because when you go on fiverr to buy a website, the guys will ask you about the colors, what plugins you want, how many pages, etc.

They don't know about your problem with presentations so they can't give you advice. The website itself is just a commodity, the consulting service designed to make a pain go away in the real deal.

 

[Andy Black]

Maybe you're not doing it for monetary gains but there's always a reason.

What if I just enjoy it?

 

[AidenRafi]

my 2 cents....

This thread was really enriching in terms of learning theories of selling.

What i see here is two opposing models on value.

@Fox is focused on customer perceived value while @Black_Dragon43 is driven by an inward view of what value should be.

At the end of the day value is subjective.

So, I don't see anything wrong with either view.

 

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[EN_VY]

Very nice. Im currently overdelivering as well but i need clients who dont take my work for granted.

People pay me to make websites that they dont even use and it breaks my heart because i really want to see them succeed thanks to the amount of effort i put into delivering them my work.

You said it yourself, they don't even use their website. I would take whatever client at first. I had a hustler mindset that I'm gonna do as much as I can. That was a mistkake and kept me with low budget clients. Find quality clients.

Alright just catching up on this thread properly and this comment is total nonsense.

They aren't worth 10k cause I run some sales magic - they are worth 10k or a lot more because they solve massive problems and create a ton of value. This isn't about creating hype - when you charge large amounts for a website there is clear win-win reason. 10k or 20k might sound large to you but it is still just a fraction of the value you are creating for the client (if done right).

If you don't get it - that is on you.

A lot of people in this thread are limited by their own experience. "I have only paid $300 for a logo so why would someone pay over a $1000?". Meanwhile a big business who has to then use that new logo on their stationary, their trucks, their offices, their shirts etc - they are NOT going to want to risk anything. That logo means a lot to them and they want it done right. They are happy to pay big money to have it done right the first time. Even just rolling out the new logo is already going to cost them a lot - why lowball so they can save a few dollars upfront? This is how a logo can easily be worth 10k.

Quick example: A medium-large delivery truck business
"Let's change our logo..."
Cost of wrapping 10 delivery trucks with new graphics: $15,000
Cost of changing all company clothes with new logo: $10,000
Cost of printing all new marketing and sales material: $20,000

But they should spend $300 on the logo to save some money? lol!

Again - don't be limited by your perspectives of working with some cheap clients on UpWork.

Just cause some personal trainer will only pay $200 for a logo doesn't mean others won't pay a lot more. Real businesses drop big money all the time to see even small gains in sales or results. When you step into their perspective it starts to make a lot more sense how $10,000 or $20,000 or even 50-100k is sometimes not that much if they get what they were after.

What might look simple to you was very important for them and worth paying a lot to have been done right.

Think bigger.

Main point: when you are a big business and there is a lot on the line you aren't going to mess around with trying to get a bargain. You need someone who gets it and who can deliver. You need someone who isn't just thinking technical and design - you want someone focused on understanding your exact problem and having the right solution to fix it.

When you look at a website as a third party you don't know what their problem was. You don't know what was holding them back. You don't know what they needed to move forward to the next level. All you see if a finished design and some text. It looks simple cause it is finished. But you don't see what problems were solved and how much they were worth - you only see the surface.

Example: Obama's 2012 website. I am not an Obama fan but look at what a very basic website was worth to him... Obama 2012

Anyone with some coding experiences could technically build that website. But what was it worth to him? Keep in mind it "increased donation conversions by 49%"

"He was the first candidate ever to receive $1 billion in donations, of which an incredible $690 million was raised digitally. (source: Time Magazine)"

$500? $5,000? $500,000? It helped win him an election and got him millions in donations.
Do you charge for what it takes to technically build it or what it is worth to him???

Look it is a free market and for you guys who are stuck at charging $100-$1,000 then that is your call. But there is no reason you have to be. There are millions of large businesses who are happy to pay a LOT more if you can just understand their problems and show you can help solve them. To do this you don't need some crazy technical website - you just need basic skills applied well.

----

Actually I will post one of my website but that will be it.

Barsplice Products, Inc. - Engineered mechanical splice systems

BarSplice Products, Inc. offers customers' a broad range of engineered mechanical splice systems for the benefit of the reinforced concrete construction industry. By means of market leadership, sales expertise and worldwide distribution, we consistently provide customer-focused solutions that...

barsplice.com

(This will probably just end up showing why I don't post real website links.)

This is a huge manufacturing business. They have worked with top clients like Amazon.
They needed a website to help boost sales and better show what they can offer.

I charged a very good amount for this website. Enough to travel for a year at the time. BUT they got an even better deal - a website like this can help bring in millions over the years and can be a massive part of their sales machine.

---

To wrap all this up I would say you have a choice:

1) use your skills to help smaller clients with small problems and small budgets.

2) or use your skills to go work with the biggest clients you can and help solve massive problems that mean a lot to them.

Same skills but far different result. The choice is in your mind and the market is on there on both sides.

For people who actually want to go big and aren't afraid to up their prices then if you want you can check out the school. If you are stuck thinking "a business owner is an idiot if they pay over $500" then best of luck - you will end up creating that reality for yourself.

You must have me confused with some amateur wannabe web designer. You cut out the part where I mentioned 5 or 10K clients are not far fetched. I could have said 15,20,30k but my commented was directed to someone who hasn't seen 5K for a website before. Save your selling points, I know the value of design, branding etc.

With that said, if you lack the technical skills and your knowledge is limited to html templates, you aren't able to give the client the best work because you are limited. How does this not make sense to you? A while back someone on this forum wanted to build a car dealership website, and instead of having a backend where the client can upload vehicles, you suggested having a link to their FB page where people can display their cars. Real problem solving here. Lol.

And as far as solving the client's problems, clients either want more sales or want time saving features. Of course there are others but in general that's what clients want. For example a limo company wouldn't just need a static HTML website, they would need a booking feature that let's customers book online.

When it comes to building a website that will bring in real world value to a client, someone who knows copy-writing, seo, programming, security, social media marketing is going to run circles around someone with a crappy html template. This is a fact and not an opinion. I guarantee I can take that site you built and improve it 10 times over and increase the value it bring with trackable results (don't worry I won't try to steal your client, I have my own.)

My first post mentioned that you know how to sale which is a valuable skill, and I have no problem with what you do or the course you sell. A bunch of people starting up need some sort of direction. But for you to downplay the importance of having technical skills is ridiculous, that's just an excuse to give the client mediocre work.

 

[Fox]

Cool.

As I said guys just make a post and tag me in if you want actual help.

If the school isn’t for you that is fine. And we all have our own approaches - I was here to answer OPs questions, not argue about the million different ways to run a web biz.

 

[BizyDad]

2 weeks ago a client contacted me to cancel his hosting because he was getting too many people contacting him asking for quotes. Now he doesn't have a website and he's never been happier. That's how I lost 1 client.

Hold. The. Phone. We all just skipped this comment?

Hey man, Congrats! This is yuge.

@LaneMan you gotta change your attitude. You're so busy feeling negative that you don't see the gold right in front of you. This is the best thing that's happened to your business so far.

In every meeting you can now slide it into conversation that you had a client cancel with you because you generated too many leads. Talk about a credibility builder! That's the kind of comment a winner makes. Losing that one client is worth it because will earn you the trust of dozens.

I actually touch on another way to leverage it this in this thread because it happened to another forum member.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

This thread was really enriching in terms of learning theories of selling.

I'm glad to see that you're finding it enriching. Unless people have an axe to grind (something to sell or a reputation to protect), nobody should get their feelings hurt in a tough discussion aimed at arriving at the truth. Everyone learns and benefits from it, much more than from guru worship or "fix your mindset" talk lol.

At the end of the day value is subjective.

I agree that value is subjective, but I will add that value can be objectively measured. I think that even more significant than value, to get a proper understanding, is to understand the concept of utility in economics. Utility is not the same as value - value is a calculation, the result of the utility of a product to the person, minus the cost (the price of the product). The utility is subjective, determined by each market participant. The price is objective in efficient markets. Hence why value is subjective but can be objectively measured (as utility - price).

This distinction is important... because the question of "how much is this product worth to you?" answers the question of UTILITY, not value.

Very often in the discussions going on here people are confusing utility for value. However if you're providing the same utility at a lower price, then you're providing greater value.

And more importantly, it is NOT sufficient to solve a problem to provide value. Nor is it sufficient to just go and help others. These things do provide UTILITY, but once again, that is not value. The role of entrepreneurs in the economy is to take resources from a state of less efficient allocation, to more efficient, which is what creates greater utility at lower costs and expands the demand curve.

So once you make the distinction, then you'll see that these conundrums fall away. If someone buys product X which is worth $10K to them at a price of $10K, then the value delivered is 0 -> that's an inefficient allocation of resources, and competition is the force that is meant to fix that and keep it to a minimum.

There will always be hustlers looking to exploit gaps in the efficiency of markets and do these things, but the openings for them are limited - markets are for the most part efficient. Which is why they struggle to scale beyond a certain point.

With that said, if you lack the technical skills and your knowledge is limited to html templates, you aren't able to give the client the best work because you are limited.

BINGO! Which is also why, even though I can do a lot of development tasks that my developers generally do, I leave it to them - my time is better spent elsewhere, and they are both faster and more thorough than I am at what they do. I would do a disservice to my client if I'd let my ego tell me "I have to do this", if I knew that there's actually someone more skilled than I am who can do the technical execution better. That's also the role of specialization in the economy. It's good to be able to fix stuff yourself and understand it, but that doesn't mean that you have to be able to compete with a specialist on it, or, God forbid, think that you're better than them.

On my website I had three developers working - 1 local, 1 from Pakistan, and 1 from Ukraine. I had worked with my designer to design the look - after I provided him with a wireframe, and a clear direction of what I wanted. I also provided the structure, story, target audience, and offers/funnel structure to my copywriter. And the result was 10x faster and better than if I had gone to "code it myself".

Imo, @Fox would be much better served if he stuck to what he does best (consulting to increase sales), and left the technical stuff to someone else, based on his guidance.

When it comes to building a website that will bring in real world value to a client, someone who knows copy-writing, seo, programming, security, social media marketing is going to run circles around someone with a crappy html template.

Right, of course. Except that I would say that this person is better served doing the higher-level strategic jobs. For example, the copywriting gurus will tell you how you have to pay top dollar for copy, because copy is what will get you sales, and on and on they'll go. Which by the way, is a LIE. Just like web designers, or logo designers, and so on are doing the same. The truth is that the ANGLE of the copy and the offer being made are what REALLY hold the pulling power. If those are top-notch, you could pay a $40-50/hr copywriter to write it for you.

So your job should be to tell that copywriter what to write - what the story will be, how the argument will be framed, what offer will be made, who the target audience will be. If you are a pro at that, then you don't need THEM to be a pro at writing copy. A sufficiently capable copywriter will be enough.

I guarantee I can take that site you built and improve it 10 times over and increase the value it bring with trackable results (don't worry I won't try to steal your client, I have my own.)

Yeah, I was just as shocked. If a designer I hired for $15/hr presented that to me, they'd be instantly fired in terms of the quality of the technical execution. The video doesn't display well on mobile, the favicon isn't working, the logo is bad quality, etc.

not argue about the million different ways to run a web biz.

Why not? Arguing about the different ways to run your biz may help you discover a more efficient way. Or it may not. That is certainly worth a lot more than another 1-2K in your pocket from a new student imo. Afterall, this is a forum - a place to discuss ideas, not play guru and build an audience.

 

[EN_VY]

I got in touch with an oil company.

They were struggling to sell. Maybe look at closing down. I agreed to help.

We set a budget at 7k.

I found out that a weak spot for them was presentations. They would have meetings and try to verbally explain everything and often they would run out of time to close the deal.

So I built a website that focused exactly on what would tie in well to their presentations. It showed a lot of past projects, it built a lot of trust, showed their experience and qualifications etc.

Site was technically very basic - just a few pages and a $20 theme.

Site goes live and within a few weeks they land a new $1,000,000 deal directly from the website. They had a meeting that didn't go well, they mentioned the website on the way out, and the potential client checked them out and decided to switch his mind and hire them.

You would look at that and say - well it is a basic website and a $20 theme. I'll change $500.

I charged 7k cause I priced it for what it did and that is how you run a profitable business based on value.

They are still great friends and love the website. They aren't "ignorant or naive" they just wanted to pay well for the problem to be fixed. Dude can you have bigger limiting beliefs about clients who pay good money???

You do have a lot of limiting beliefs but I can't help you cause you are projecting your own BS on me.

Why do you act like you make some ground-breaking discovery? No shit your job is to create a website that presents their product or service in a better way. Isn't this a given? Let me guess, they had some website that was styled like in was made in the early 2000's? In that case, any theme is better than that. However, that isn't saying much. You are limiting your client's on what they can really achieve. Let's see them consult with a real web design agency and see what their business can really do.

 

[MattR82]

Maybe you're not doing it for monetary gains but there's always a reason.

For example, I might start telling people how great you are because you give a lot of Google ads content for free and you'll feel good about it because now you feel surrounded by good people who will protect you from lions and tigers.

Lol.
Damn you and your clever angles @Andy Black !

 

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[BizyDad]

@Black_Dragon43 are you just here to pick fights with people cuz you know it helps you sell?

I purposefully addressed you because I knew you'd be triggered, so... 1-0 for me.

I got more clients and exposure out of questioning @Kung Fu Steve than anything else I've ever done in the forum. I've become a household name because of it.

And now you're here trying to take the moral high ground on Fox? To what, attack his reputation?

@Fox , sorry man, but that's just what you want to believe, and what you're telling yourself. It's just a story. The fact is, they are NOT worth $10K and they are not solving massive problems and creating a ton of value... If that's what solving massive problems looks like... lol

The reason why you're selling at those numbers is because you're selling to ignorant and naive people. That's the real secret here. It's not that you're solving massive problems.

But aren't you the guy that two days ago in this thread hyped the morality of selling astrological healing Alibaba trinkets to 40 year old "broken grannies"? Do you think maybe you are projecting your worldview on @Fox way too much here?

I just can't believe the audacity of the hypocrisy.

And you know, when I asked you why you don't just let your expertise shine through without feeling the need to trigger folks or neg folks or say derogatory things about them you said:

Because I get bored... I prefer to have fun.

Remember how you said you don't put people down? Like this isn't a put down?

The reason why you're selling at those numbers is because you're selling to ignorant and naive people. That's the real secret here. It's not that you're solving massive problems.

You admittedly attack people for fun. Watching you work is disgusting. Especially when you say things like:

Afterall, this is a forum - a place to discuss ideas, not play guru and build an audience.

Seriously? You say that with a straight face? Ok, in a vacuum that's a perfectly reasonable comment.

Then why do I see you mentioning yourself alongside Dan Kennedy and Russell Brunson while angling for more course sales?

I recommend that you study the following, they will teach you the basics about direct marketing, and how to build out your funnels.
• Dan Kennedy - No B.S. Direct Response Marketing
• Russell Brunson - DotCom Secrets
• And if you want a single, complete solution that is going to show you how to switch to the funnel model from A to Z, I recommend my course: 5-Steps to Create a Money-Making Machine (which you can find in the Marketplace). There's nothing like it on the market that explains the entire process - from identifying your target audience, to analyzing the competition, setting up your funnel, doing your positioning, advertising, and then setting up powerful email backends. In fact, some of my students have broken the million dollar mark in revenues, and I launched the course just one year ago (check the video testimonial in the Marketplace).

Watching you flip flop positions almost gave me whiplash. You've missed your calling as a politician.

Can we all just take a minute to laugh about how "there's nothing like it on the market"?

You're on here taking Fox to task for over-hyping html sites, but you peddle "funnels" like they are the future of ecommerce and "storefronts" are dead.

you guys are all struggling is because you're using an outdated business model. You try to sell via a storefront.

In that other thread you did many of the things you now are accusing Fox of doing. I mean, weren't you bragging on this "million dollar" funnel page?

https://offer.projectyourself.com/natural-white-chalcedony-positivity-bracelet/

But you complain about the work Fox does? Puh-lease. It was genius when you helped someone close more sales two days ago, but now he's holding himself back?

I said it before, but it bears repeating:

you're obviously a smart dude. You don't have to put people down to build yourself up.

I think others have had interesting relevant (and some maybe not so relevant) questions about how Fox conducts himself or his school, but I think you're just here to become "a household name" and you're just stirring the pot to do it.

You're a reason posts like this get made.

Spoiler: Spoiler Alert

I predict Black Dragon is going to do some mental gymnastics to explain this all away because he's actually a good guy with strong moral fiber who would never ever engage in any of the behaviour I am mentioning. I'm probably just misunderstanding his points, he might even take a long time to clarify them to "prove" I'm wrong in my assessment. Also, this was all obviously light hearted jabs or jokes and anyone who has a problem with him or his tactics is taking it all too seriously or is too thin skinned. His course is 1% (or 3, or 4) of his "mid six figure" revenue, but he'd like it to be higher. What's wrong with that? And if his posts bring a lot of value, who cares if he sells his course? He's the forum's next Walter Hay and he's paying to be featured in the marketplace.

Failing to be able to respond with any of that since I spoilered his usual answers, he'll say something dismissive or just not reply at all. But no matter what, he'll never own up to his hyprocrisy.

 

[JordanK]

Why do you only pay your Indian developer $200 if the market value of his work is 10x or 100x of that.

Because you perceive its value as only being $200 and the Indian developer is happy with this as its a nice sum and pays his LCOL bills.

Whats stopping the Indian developer who is very good and technical from prospecting and charging $2000 for this website.

HINT: It’s the same thing thats stopping you from selling 10k or 20k websites like Fox.

 

[biophase]

Ok question for you web designers. You have 3 developers on your team. Each one can code the website that you proposed to your client.

You pay your USA developer $75/hr so the website would cost you $750.
You pay your India developer $40/hr so the website would cost you $400.
You pay your Pakistan developer $20/hr so the website would cost you $200.

What do you charge your client for this website, with the above labor pool?

What if after you delivered this website to your client. You find and hire a 4th developer from Nepal and he charges you $5/hr so the website would have cost you $50.

Did you then overage your client?

 

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[Raja]

Ok question for you web designers. You have 3 developers on your team. Each one can code the website that you proposed to your client.

You pay your USA developer $75/hr so the website would cost you $750.
You pay your India developer $40/hr so the website would cost you $400.
You pay your Pakistan developer $20/hr so the website would cost you $200.

What do you charge your client for this website, with the above labor pool?

What if after you delivered this website to your client. You find and hire a 4th developer from Nepal and he charges you $5/hr so the website would have cost you $50.

Did you then overage your client?

In my humble opinion,
Its okay to charge high if you know what you are doing and client know what he is paying for.

 

[Fox]

Afterall, this is a forum - a place to discuss ideas, not play guru and build an audience.

Meanwhile in another thread...

I got more clients and exposure out of questioning @Kung Fu Steve than anything else I've ever done in the forum. I've become a household name because of it.

Cool. Then you won't mind if I take my school name out of the title so it doesn't help boost my school and you are free to discuss web design and sales all you want.

If all you really wanted was to talk about web design I don't see you having an issue with that.

 

[biophase]

Meanwhile in another thread...

Cool. Then you won't mind if I take my school name out of the title so it doesn't help boost my school and you are free to discuss web design and sales all you want.

If all you really wanted was to talk about web design I don't see you having an issue with that.

To be fair, he wasn’t the one who started the thread.

 

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[Fox]

To be fair, he wasn’t the one who started the thread.

Agreed but (to counter his point) neither did I.

I don’t start any new web design threads to avoid this exact thing - I have one ad on this forum and all my other posts are to enjoy the community as I always have.

With a school thread like this it just gets way off track. You got people who are never going to be a student and/or who promote their own thing jumping in with all kinds of comments. If people really want to know about the school they got a massive marketplace thread with tons of posts.

OPs question was answered on page one. I also sent him a bunch of links to help out. It got answered and more.

If people want to keep arguing the ins and outs of web design that is fine but I don’t see a need to have this thread rank as probably the top thing on google when people search my school.

Got a question or issue with the school - ask me on the marketplace thread.

Want to discuss general web design stuff - cool then just tag me in.

To me that seems fair and it avoids trying to gauge if people are just posting to try hijack someone else’s business name.

 

[Fox]

And if this is what you do, why don't you call it that? I mean, you could expand way beyond web design, just like I did. You have the brains to solve sales problems for these people, why restrict yourself to solutions that involve a website? You could help many more businesses by learning the full marketing spectrum and then advising them - regardless of what they need, you'd then have a solution for them. And hire out the designing/development part... your time is better spent on strategy.

This is what I do already. I don’t consider myself a web designer and as already pointed out on in this thread my web design skills are average.

The core of what I do (and teach) is to try solve big problems with simple solutions and add value. Usually by helping with sales. The “web design” is just to get the foot in the door.

I’m sure there are many on these forums who are far better coders. I got students who can code better also. What made me profitable when doing web design and what I focus the school on is max leveraging sales/value creation skills.

I am pretty sure I could switch to video editing or SEO tomorrow and be quickly getting similar results. Web design (to me and in this context) is just one tool of many to get a business a result they are happy to pay for.

At this stage we are just arguing over each other and it seemed to get personal. If you guys want to really debate different points though I’m all for that.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

If all you really wanted was to talk about web design I don't see you having an issue with that.

To me, no issue. As @biophase said though, Im not the thread starter so you shouldn’t be asking me. So maybe you should ask him.

I am here on the forum to LEARN and have my worldview challenged and challenge other people’s. Not everyone is here for the same reason.

While I did get like $550 worth of work for my cheap (compared to my main stuff and regulat prices) copy service, and around $700 for my course from TFLF last month, considering that is less 5% of my revenue you can rest assured I wouldn’t be wasting my time here just to promote stuff, especially not on a Sunday/Saturday.

But some people like @BizyDad are incurable. From the first time I started posting in the forum, they’ve been coming after me for using my signature to promote my stuff. As if that was against the rules lol. Bizydad even had a problem about promoting my course at all, as if it was some fake crap LOL.

Anyway, some interesting points above by you, @biophase and others, will be addressing later today when I get more time.

 

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[LaneMan]

Wait a minute, the thread title changed?

 

[Fox]

Wait a minute, the thread title changed?

Ya - this thread is much more about general web design discussion than my school at this point and there is already a full school marketplace thread to ask questions.

If people want less promotion on the forum there is no need to have multiple school threads going.

Your question was answered and you can hit me up via PM or on the other thread if you wish. Thanks.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

@Black_Dragon43 are you just here to pick fights with people cuz you know it helps you sell?

Yeah, I'm picking fights to grab a few pennies off the floor. LOL! Not only are you quite ignorant about eCom, now you're also ignorant about how forums work. Look: forums are NOT great places to make huge revenues. They are good places to pick a sale here and there, and make enough to buy yourself an ice-cream. I plan to grow my course to $3M in revenue - that's the target. The forum as a lead generator is not very significant in getting there. Paid advertising is, which is what will be the main focus after the third version release. I will be giving a discount after that to forum members, so they can get in for like $750 not $997 at that point.

Also, since I want many students, I'm currently selling at VERY low prices. Unlike some of your friends, I'm not making a great revenue out of one sale. My purpose atm is VOLUME.

And now you're here trying to take the moral high ground on Fox? To what, attack his reputation?

I have not attacked anyone's reputation, so I don't know what you're talking about.

And with regards to moral highground, you should not be talking Bizy, believe me. You first need to look in the mirror.

But aren't you the guy that two days ago in this thread hyped the morality of selling astrological healing Alibaba trinkets to 40 year old "broken grannies"?

Right, what's wrong with that? These products often help them feel better, according to their own words. Do you want me to show you a list of 100+ freely given testimonials about this? I've hyped nothing there, I was just helping another forum member not give up on his idea just because he's not 100% sure about the scientifically proven benefits of astrology. The argument is that even if these things are not proven, we should not jump to conclusions that they don't work and are immoral to sell.

Do you think maybe you are projecting your worldview on @Fox way too much here?

Remember how you said you don't put people down? Like this isn't a put down?

Where's the put down? This is what you quoted:

The reason why you're selling at those numbers is because you're selling to ignorant and naive people. That's the real secret here. It's not that you're solving massive problems.

So where's the put down? Because I don't see any put down. If you're going to rob a bank, you might as well be clear in your head what you're going to do, not be like "I'm really going to add value to the bank by getting them to get better security in the future".

If you fib about what you intend to do, you're not going to get great results, because you'll not be planning for the right thing. So there is no reason to fib.

Anyway, that's what it appeared that @Fox was doing since he emphasized the web design aspect, it actually turned out that he was more of a consultant, with the web design just furnishing the way to deliver those improvements.

We're now over that discussion, I have no interest to continue it.

Then why do I see you mentioning yourself alongside Dan Kennedy and Russell Brunson while angling for more course sales?

Why shouldn't I? I'm one of the best on the planet at what I do. I've worked on MANY multi-million dollar launches. My agency is one of the best you can find in the direct response field, including for newer, more innovative industries, not just the traditional.

Just because you're playing small, and you're a small town SEM whatever, that's YOUR fault, not mine. No need to be jealous.

You admittedly attack people for fun. Watching you work is disgusting. Especially when you say things like:

Yes I "attacked" YOU for fun (although it really was a prank, which YOU created by hunting me down through the forum whenever I opened a new thread to accuse me of selling my course), because you deserved it. You were giving crap advice to someone about eCom, advice that you yourself admitted that will NOT move the needle, while my advice will. And you were giving that advice to someone who is NOT making any revenue! For F*ck's sake, I really hope that's not how YOU run your business, going about taking care of all the unnecessary things while you don't have any revenue... first fix the revenue. Get the money. Then the other stuff can be fixed. If that's how you run your business, then you won't be having it for long, believe me.

You've missed your calling as a politician.

LOL - you're saying that?! A banker turned entrepreneur is calling someone who for their entire life has been an entrepreneur and a rebel a politician. Funny, LOL!

"there's nothing like it on the market"

It's true, there's nothing like it on the market. Buy it and you'll see. You have 60-days to get your money back anyway Mr. Banker.

Watching you work is disgusting.

The only disgusting thing here is your LYING, and how you USE people who can't defend themselves anymore:

You're a reason posts like this get made.

This poor guy is probably rolling in his grave at the crap you're saying. Believe me, he would have had NO FEAR to list me as one of the people he was thinking about if that was the case. He wasn't one to shy from a fight. Here's who he listed:

Fox , Andy Black

Check it out for yourself before lying again: https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...forum-is-getting-toxic-my-final-thread.95682/

Look - my course has helped people scale to 1M+ in revenues, proven, with people saying it on tape, and showing their results, either on video or via screenshots. In terms of pure financial results, has Fox done that? No. Has Andy done that? No.

So I suggest you check your facts. I'm one of the best on the entire planet at what I do. And you seem to be licking the boots of those other people, so one has to wonder why...

Now just because I'm so out of your reach and I'm making you feel uncomfortable doesn't mean you need to hunt me down through the forum, and on each new thread I open claim that I'm using it to funnel traffic with my signature to my course and make money for an ice-cream. You've done that 3 times already. Get your own course if you're so jealous, and if an extra $700 really means a lot to you. And use arguments and reasons to make your points, not personal attacks.

but I think you're just here to become "a household name" and you're just stirring the pot to do it.

And I think you're just jealous because I'm younger than you are, and more successful than you are to boot. For everyone else who is here for knowledge - the point is forums are not great places to make a lot of money. People who claim they are simply don't know what they're talking about. The primary reason to be on a forum is to learn. And that requires distinguishing what is TRUE from what is FALSE.

Now this will be my last response in this thread to you (if you want to continue the conversation about me and my course, open a new thread), because I feel I've said everything that has to be said, and no productive discussion can be had out of this that is relevant to the thread. In fact, I'm not sure why @Fox even liked your post - full of lies, off topic, and entirely irrelevant. Maybe self-interest is rearing its head once again. I do appreciate that he has deleted the hateful post he initially made towards me though.

 

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[JordanK]

Black Dragon nobody on forum cares how successful you are if your a dickhead.

Awful response.

@MJ DeMarco close the thread?

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Ok question for you web designers. You have 3 developers on your team. Each one can code the website that you proposed to your client.

You pay your USA developer $75/hr so the website would cost you $750.
You pay your India developer $40/hr so the website would cost you $400.
You pay your Pakistan developer $20/hr so the website would cost you $200.

What do you charge your client for this website, with the above labor pool?

What if after you delivered this website to your client. You find and hire a 4th developer from Nepal and he charges you $5/hr so the website would have cost you $50.

Did you then overage your client?

A good question. I'm not a web designer, but I employ web designers. My answer here is that I don't charge based on my cost.

So there are several approaches to pricing... one is going based off cost. What is your cost, and what markup do you want, and then you set your price like that.

I don't like that, because it ignores the realities of the market. Maybe my costs are too high - maybe I'm inefficient - maybe I don't even have a business with my cost structure.

So I prefer to set my prices based on what my competitors do (based on the market) & based on the utility delivered.

If the utility justifies a higher than market price due to the problems that we're solving, then I will go for that. In that case, it doesn't matter what my cost structure looks like - I'm not overcharging my client, since I'm tailoring a solution to solve their specific problem, while not looking to eliminate all the value for them.

If the utility doesn't justify a higher than market price and I'm happy to take work at the respective market price, then once again, I don't see my cost structure as relevant to my client. How efficiently I can get the work done will be the profit that I make. The profit my client makes is the utility of my solution minus how much they pay me. So if all things are balanced, it's a win-win deal.

What's your take?

 

[Fox]

This thread peaked with @Bekit s post about 6 pages back.

Let's just all move on and enjoy the weekend.

 

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[biophase]

A good question. I'm not a web designer, but I employ web designers. My answer here is that I don't charge based on my cost.

So there are several approaches to pricing... one is going based off cost. What is your cost, and what markup do you want, and then you set your price like that.

I don't like that, because it ignores the realities of the market. Maybe my costs are too high - maybe I'm inefficient - maybe I don't even have a business with my cost structure.

So I prefer to set my prices based on what my competitors do (based on the market) & based on the utility delivered.

If the utility justifies a higher than market price due to the problems that we're solving, then I will go for that. In that case, it doesn't matter what my cost structure looks like - I'm not overcharging my client, since I'm tailoring a solution to solve their specific problem, while not looking to eliminate all the value for them.

If the utility doesn't justify a higher than market price and I'm happy to take work at the respective market price, then once again, I don't see my cost structure as relevant to my client. How efficiently I can get the work done will be the profit that I make. The profit my client makes is the utility of my solution minus how much they pay me. So if all things are balanced, it's a win-win deal.

What's your take?

The reason I made up that scenario is because we disagree on the pricing of a logo. You say that no logo should cost more than $1000. So I was trying to figure out how you come to that conclusion.

My example was trying to figure out how you price something, and you said you based it on what your competitors do and its utility. So it really doesn't matter if the person you hired for the logo charged you $10, $200, $500 or $1000 to come up with a logo. You would price it at say $1000 because you believe the utility of a logo is only worth $1000.

I feel like a logo creation is alot like the hammer story. The person that you hire has to know what logo to create.

" There was once a rich businessman with a broken beloved car. Despite several attempts, he was unable to fix the engine of that car. He called several engineers but no one was able to fix it. Finally there was an old mechanic who visited him. That old guy inspected the engine and asked for a hammer. On front side of the engine, he tapped few times with his hammer and brrroomm…brroom…It started Working! Next day, the old mechanic sent his invoice for $1000. The businessman was shocked.

He said, “ This was merely a $1 job. You just tapped the engine with your hammer. What’s there for $1000 that you are asking?”

The old mechanic said “ Let me give you a detailed invoice.”

The Invoice read:

Tapping the engine with hammer: $1

Knowing where to hit the hammer: $999"

 

[GoodluckChuck]

Another way to look at it is this:
If you buy a bus ticket to take you across the state, are you going to want to see pictures of the bus?

If you are considering hiring a web designer to build a website that you hope will "take your business somewhere", then looking at past websites isn't going to prove much. Talking to references would be a lot more meaningful for making a decision.