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Is UNI really worthless?

Anything related to matters of the mind

AnNvr

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Hey lads, here's my first thread.

I might going to be mocked for what I am about to post, but eventually I'll find usefull points of view.

Brief introduction for a better understanding of my situation:
I'm 36. Australia based. Background in hospitality, self-taught on IT systems.

Needles to say: Covid has been my "F*ck this event".

So here's the point: I am considering to taking advantage of subsidised concessions to enroll to Uni and get a Diploma in Information Technology.

HOLD

I am aware of MJ's insights regarding University, and this is why I am kind of stucked in this decision.

The past year I wrote and designed a really useful app which could help several thousands of people on long term once developed. I need two things: better knowledge on coding and a different fundational job. Regarding the second one, working in hospitality is seriusoly deteriorating, with frustrating condition as well as the pay-rate and work life balance. Coming home with bad pain all over the body and toxicity in the brain do not help scoring stepstones. I do not know how is it the US hospitality industry. Here in Australia it's a wreck, and with the ratio pay-rate/work-life balance you can litterally clean up your a**s.

I believe that long-term trends begin as short-term moves - changing foundational job from hospitality to IT could providing me a better work-life balance, extra insights and help me into the process. Otherwhise how could I afford to make a living while I am working on a project which I want to see becoming real?

Loooking forward to hear from the community.

Many thanks in advance for your time!
 
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Tubs

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Hey lads, here's my first thread.

I might going to be mocked for what I am about to post, but eventually I'll find usefull points of view.

Brief introduction for a better understanding of my situation:
I'm 36. Australia based. Background in hospitality, self-taught on IT systems.

Needles to say: Covid has been my "f*ck this event".

So here's the point: I am considering to taking advantage of subsidised concessions to enroll to Uni and get a Diploma in Information Technology.

HOLD

I am aware of MJ's insights regarding University, and this is why I am kind of stucked in this decision.

The past year I wrote and designed a really useful app which could help several thousands of people on long term once developed. I need two things: better knowledge on coding and a different fundational job. Regarding the second one, working in hospitality is seriusoly deteriorating, with frustrating condition as well as the pay-rate and work life balance. Coming home with bad pain all over the body and toxicity in the brain do not help scoring stepstones. I do not know how is it the US hospitality industry. Here in Australia it's a wreck, and with the ratio pay-rate/work-life balance you can litterally clean up your a**s.

I believe that long-term trends begin as short-term moves - changing foundational job from hospitality to IT could providing me a better work-life balance, extra insights and help me into the process. Otherwhise how could I afford to make a living while I am working on a project which I want to see becoming real?

Loooking forward to hear from the community.

Many thanks in advance for your time!

1. Uni in general isn't necessarily useless. The main problem is people jumping into uni without thinking it through and not questioning if going is worth it to them or not. Figuring out not only the monetary cost, but the time cost as well. If you have thought about it and decided it's worth it for you personally, then that is fine.

2. Do you need a degree to get an IT job? I believe that you can get online certifications from google and other places that could potentially help to land an IT job. You might want to do some research to see what the best way to break into the field is.
 

AnNvr

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Many thanks for your insights Tubs.

Going straight to your 2. I agree with you and I have already done research regarding Google certifications (it's where I am learning regarding developing Android apps and UX) but Queensland Australia seems to very lay back and closed minded regarding the view on skill sets; as such they do not validate anything without either previous experience or pieces of paper certified by Gov.

Personally, I would do both. At the end of the run, skills set is all that matters for personal development and entreprenaurship, but in the meantime I have to start somewhere somehow, haven't I?
 

DayIFly

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With a Diploma do you mean studying for 3-4 years or is this a course that ranges from like 12-18 months? The former sounds really daunting, but the latter should be tolerable if you're sure that you'll get a better job that you're comfy with.
 
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AnNvr

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Thank you for sharing your point DaylFly.

Oh yes... If with "former" you mean my hospo background, well, spot on. I wouldn't be here otherwise :) I am litterally over with it.

This it's a 12 months Diploma full time. I am aware isn't a game changer on its own, but as I said in the thread I gotta come up with a different path to get more comfortable while working on my project and expanding my self-education on coding and business development. If it doesn't sound right, it's fine and I am here to listen different points of view and analysis.
 

DayIFly

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It sounds like your current job is hell, so it's understandable that you want to change that. After the 12 months of getting the Diploma, do you think that you have a good chance to start working in the IT industry? I think if it's only 12 months, then it's not as big of a deal as, for example, studying for 3-4 years.

Other than that, do you see any opportunities in your current field of work (hospitality) for a side-business that you could scale into a full-time income, like maybe importing something and selling B2B? If you haven't already, I would recommend MJ's third book, it's very instructive because it's written as a fictional story where the protagonist goes through it all step-by-step.
 

peddletothemetal

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I'll give a perspective as someone who's had a hiring manager role in IT before. Not advice, DYOR, etc.

So here's the point: I am considering to taking advantage of subsidised concessions to enroll to Uni and get a Diploma in Information Technology.

There's so little point doing this, because we rarely care. It would amount to X years and Y dollars of waste. It's just the easy answer, "I want to do [job], therefore go do a university course closest related to [job]". It's old-fashioned and will just delay your desired career change. Even when we see a degree in computer science on their resume, it's not a make or break, as we know we're going to have to train the new grads how to do applied (rather than theoretical) programming anyway.

When someone applies, if we think there's any plausibility they can program, we send them an online coding test. Mentioning any kind of programming work on your resume is enough (even links to your own projects), because online coding tests are dirt cheap for us to administer. The test proves if they have any programming competence in 60 minutes, regardless of them having college degrees or not.

We then bring them in for an interview, in which we're looking for interest, enthusiasm, drive, work ethic, etc. This is especially the case for juniors, as it's tenacity and drive that is most important, since that's what they bring to the table, versus jaded long-timers, who need to bring wisdom and experience.

So hit leetcode / hackerrank etc for coding test practice, and get a running project online complete with source on github, then slap it on the first page of your resume, then start applying for jobs. That's enough to get you on the first rung of the programming career ladder.

but Queensland Australia seems to very lay back and closed minded regarding the view on skill sets; as such they do not validate anything without either previous experience or pieces of paper certified by Gov
That's called "tarring everyone with the same brush". No, it is false that the entirety of your province all require "pieces of paper" for programming jobs. It's not medicine or law. I doubt, even if your province is populated entirely by morons, that it would even be a majority.

Just bake in to your expectations that you're going to get a lot of rejection before you land a job, but the demand for devs is currently sky high, so don't delay.

Good luck!
 
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Last edited:

Johnny boy

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You do not need a related job.
Learning things is not done at school. School is where you pretend to learn things, study for tests and complete busy-work in exchange for a certification.

If you want to code an app go code it right now. When you come across a problem, look up the solution.

And before even wasting your time coding it, try building a MVP and testing demand, and DEFINITELY don't go to school for years, get a job coding, etc...all just to be "prepared" to build an app. Testing ideas should take a couple weeks not a couple of years or more!

School is not evil, it's just RARELY one of the logical steps that people should take in order to achieve their actual goals. For most its a placeholder for having to make a real decision. Or it's part of a poorly made, unnecessarily long term plan that could be accomplished in less than half the time. Doctors, lawyers, engineers and such are exempt from this but almost everything else is silly.
 

AnNvr

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It sounds like your current job is hell, so it's understandable that you want to change that. After the 12 months of getting the Diploma, do you think that you have a good chance to start working in the IT industry? I think if it's only 12 months, then it's not as big of a deal as, for example, studying for 3-4 years.

Other than that, do you see any opportunities in your current field of work (hospitality) for a side-business that you could scale into a full-time income, like maybe importing something and selling B2B? If you haven't already, I would recommend MJ's third book, it's very instructive because it's written as a fictional story where the protagonist goes through it all step-by-step.
I actually thought about a B2B operation - mainly I have background in coffee, and the past year I have been roasting coffee beans. Highly competitive market with a large entry level capital to invest (supplies, hiring a roastery that roast under your requests, several trials for developing a new blend with fantastic aromatic notes at a competitive price) for answering the question "Why should you buy my coffee rather than all the ones already available on the market?".

I have read Fastlane and Unscripted , but I'll defintely read the others I guess you are talking about Escape the Rat Race!
 

AnNvr

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I'll give a perspective as someone who's had a hiring manager role in IT before. Not advice, DYOR, etc.



There's so little point doing this, because we rarely care. It would amount to X years and Y dollars of waste. It's just the easy answer, "I want to do [job], therefore go do a university course closest related to [job]". It's old-fashioned and will just delay your desired career change. Even when we see a degree in computer science on their resume, it's not a make or break, as we know we're going to have to train the new grads how to do applied (rather than theoretical) programming anyway.

When someone applies, if we think there's any plausibility they can program, we send them an online coding test. Mentioning any kind of programming work on your resume is enough (even links to your own projects), because online coding tests are dirt cheap for us to administer. The test proves if they have any programming competence in 60 minutes, regardless of them having college degrees or not.

We then bring them in for an interview, in which we're looking for interest, enthusiasm, drive, work ethic, etc. This is especially the case for juniors, as it's tenacity and drive that is most important, since that's what they bring to the table, versus jaded long-timers, who need to bring wisdom and experience.

So hit leetcode / hackerrank etc for coding test practice, and get a running project online complete with source on github, then slap it on the first page of your resume, then start applying for jobs. That's enough to get you on the first rung of the programming career ladder.


That's called "tarring everyone with the same brush". No, it is false that the entirety of your province all require "pieces of paper" for programming jobs. It's not medicine or law. I doubt, even if your province is populated entirely by morons, that it would even be a majority.

Just bake in to your expectations that you're going to get a lot of rejection before you land a job, but the demand for devs is currently sky high, so don't delay.

Good luck!
Thanks for sharing your professional experience. I am not a junior but neither an oldie, so doesn't necessarily mean that I have no desire and enthusiasm to provide, among ethic and discipline gained with lifetime. I'll stick for my Corsera and Udemy's + G cert. sources of education... In your experience is there any other source of reliable quality?
 
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AnNvr

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I totally got your point. Thanks for sharing it! much appreciate it
 

peddletothemetal

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I am not a junior but neither an
In dev ranks the typical progression goes something like: junior -> mid -> senior -> tech lead -> other leadership positions. It's not about age but either competence level or years vegetating at same company.
In your experience is there any other source of reliable quality?
Keep doing whatever you're enjoying learning from, but you'll need to bring in pressure of some kind to really gain practical knowledge that'll tide you well come interview questions time.

Trying to build your own website or websites for others, or publishing a mobile app, or whatever you're most into, and then learning as you need, i.e. google searching how to overcome obstacles and bashing your head off them for hours or days, drives you fastest and closest to understanding the tech and also what you'll be doing on the job.

Also when you apply to jobs, web agencies are often pretty good starters as they're bottom of the ladder and high churn, as the devs do their stint and then move up to better roles in the industry.
 

AnNvr

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In dev ranks the typical progression goes something like: junior -> mid -> senior -> tech lead -> other leadership positions. It's not about age but either competence level or years vegetating at same company.

Keep doing whatever you're enjoying learning from, but you'll need to bring in pressure of some kind to really gain practical knowledge that'll tide you well come interview questions time.

Trying to build your own website or websites for others, or publishing a mobile app, or whatever you're most into, and then learning as you need, i.e. google searching how to overcome obstacles and bashing your head off them for hours or days, drives you fastest and closest to understanding the tech and also what you'll be doing on the job.

Also when you apply to jobs, web agencies are often pretty good starters as they're bottom of the ladder and high churn, as the devs do their stint and then move up to better roles in the industry.
It seems like I have choose a real fist in the a$$. Alright then, I'll avoid Uni and focus on everything you have just suggested me. Thank you a lot for all the content you have shared with me.
 
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Andy Black

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Hey lads, here's my first thread.

I might going to be mocked for what I am about to post, but eventually I'll find usefull points of view.

Brief introduction for a better understanding of my situation:
I'm 36. Australia based. Background in hospitality, self-taught on IT systems.

Needles to say: Covid has been my "f*ck this event".

So here's the point: I am considering to taking advantage of subsidised concessions to enroll to Uni and get a Diploma in Information Technology.

HOLD

I am aware of MJ's insights regarding University, and this is why I am kind of stucked in this decision.

The past year I wrote and designed a really useful app which could help several thousands of people on long term once developed. I need two things: better knowledge on coding and a different fundational job. Regarding the second one, working in hospitality is seriusoly deteriorating, with frustrating condition as well as the pay-rate and work life balance. Coming home with bad pain all over the body and toxicity in the brain do not help scoring stepstones. I do not know how is it the US hospitality industry. Here in Australia it's a wreck, and with the ratio pay-rate/work-life balance you can litterally clean up your a**s.

I believe that long-term trends begin as short-term moves - changing foundational job from hospitality to IT could providing me a better work-life balance, extra insights and help me into the process. Otherwhise how could I afford to make a living while I am working on a project which I want to see becoming real?

Loooking forward to hear from the community.

Many thanks in advance for your time!
Can you get a job doing IT support? What about helping out with IT where you currently work?

I got into IT without studying it or having any certifications. I got into digital marketing without studying it or having any certifications.

Not saying not to get formal training. Just that you often don’t *need* formal training and certifications.

As for the question “Is uni really worthless?”. It’s a continuum rather than being binary, and it depends on personal circumstances.
 

AnNvr

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Can you get a job doing IT support? What about helping out with IT where you currently work?
I actually would like to and it's a great idea! Is the business core that unfortunately is not willing to improve, so here I am, aiming to get out of there and release some potential on my own.

To be honest there would be a lot of potential applying an easy-to-use interface to an small air roaster for coffee beans. On a large scale it could make a killing.

Imagine to walk down to the mall, and roast your coffee in 10 minutes anytime you want :D
 

MJ DeMarco

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Not sure if this thread is directed at me, but for the 100th time, I never said UNI was worthless. I'm getting tired of having to refute straw-man arguments, things I never said.

Yes, UNI can be worthless.
Yes, UNI can be very valuable.


In America, because of its high cost, the former is more likely than the latter, but namely for all non-STEM professions. There is no argument to be made for some teenager to pay $150,000 for a philosophy degree with no job market.

Like many things in life, the right answer is case by case, country by country, person by person.
 
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AnNvr

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Not sure if this thread is directed at me, but for the 100th time, I never said UNI was worthless. I'm getting tired of having to refute straw-man arguments, things I never said.

Yes, UNI can be worthless.
Yes, UNI can be very valuable.


In America, because of its high cost, the former is more likely than the latter, but namely for all non-STEM professions. There is no argument to be made for some teenager to pay $150,000 for a philosophy degree with no job market.

Like many things in life, the right answer is case by case, country by country, person by person.
MJ, the thread is mine and directed to myself only.

Normally I wouldn't write about personal iinsecurity on a Forum, if I did it is because I was seriously looking for real insights and I found this space valuable.

If it weren't for your insights, I wouldn't be here learning and testing how to provide value.
 

RussRussman18

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Depends how much you can get subsidized. If you can get a full ride, with housing and meals, I say go for it, and work on your business on nights/weekends. If you will have to go into debt, probably not a good idea. Regarding IT, pretty sure you don't need a degree to work in the field. Mental Outlaw on youtube has some good videos on getting IT certs
 

AnNvr

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Depends how much you can get subsidized. If you can get a full ride, with housing and meals, I say go for it, and work on your business on nights/weekends. If you will have to go into debt, probably not a good idea. Regarding IT, pretty sure you don't need a degree to work in the field. Mental Outlaw on youtube has some good videos on getting IT certs
A$ 140 for the whole course instead of A$ 16k.

I am onto mental outlaw certs video right now - thank you so much for the gem!!
 
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peddletothemetal

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Like many things in life, the right answer is case by case, country by country, person by person.
Absolutely. Anti-university sentiment is first and foremost about jolting people out of the mindset of "every profession and person needs a college degree" and forcing them to think carefully about all options, rather than saying college is universally good for nothing.
 

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