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HOT TOPIC Can you add too much value?

Andy Black

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You finally got someone to watch a video @ChrisV.

I’ll have to watch that again. He covered a lot very quickly and without stories for me to hang onto.

My main takeaway was that the givers in the organisation are over represented at the bottom, but it’s not the takers or matchers who are over represented at the top.
 

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biophase

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Yes, I think it is enlightened self interest. You know that doing it will increase your chances of more wealth and that is why you do it. After all if you increase the amount of wealth in the world, you can be even richer, so it is in your own best interests.

That actually sounds really tempting, and could well motivate me to make money or try and barter or try and bring you down. I would have been delighted by that reply.

I certainly see a lot of value in that offer. I have a problem and you are offering to solve it. I'm pretty certain your being sarcastic though, which makes me sad. So I'm probably totally missing the point.

Neither of those sound like they would add the kind of value your offer would....
So you think that I am replying to you to increase my chance of more wealth? I'm responding because it is in my best interest to give you, a random person on the other side of the world, advice? If this is the type of conclusion your brain comes to when you read other people's posts, then I can see why you can't comprehend the offering of value.

If you can't comprehend giving for giving's sake, then you yourself will never be able to do the same. And if you can't do this, the people you come in contact with will see that you aren't truly giving, but doing something because you expect something in return. In fact, you are marketing in a sneaky way. Maybe that's why people won't pay you.

Now regarding my offer and why it sounds tempting to you. Think. Why does my offer sound more tempting than some random person that PMs you? Why would you pay me $300/hr? You don't know me. I could just take your money and run.

Isn't it because you've read some of my other posts? Isn't it because you have some background information about me? How is this different than @Andy Black's posts that you've seen?
 

biophase

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Quite possibly. I usually ignore them, likes are cheap and easy, which makes them poor quality feedback. People who think I have added value can make donations via paypal or crypto. Talk is cheap, money talks.
So someone liking your post is not good enough and you expect people to donate/give you money if you had added value to them?

You think this because a LIKE costs the other person nothing and it is of no value to you.
You want money because that COSTS the other person something of value, and it provides you something of value.

If you hold the door for someone and they say thank you, are you happy with that exchange?
You've provided a little value but holding the door, you've saved them some energy. In exchange, they said two words to you. Is that not like someone clicking, LIKE to a post?
Do you expect them to grab their wallet and give you a quarter?
 

biophase

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  1. scarcity / stinginess (always looking out for number 1, gotta get mine, zero sum game, etc)
  2. Helpful / always giving (would always look for a way to add value to a situation, regardless of the personal cost)
  3. Helpful / giving when appropriate (I don't remember the term he used for this mindset, which is too bad because it was really good, but the key was that these people had a mindset of adding value wherever they went, but not at the expense of their own personal goals.
It sounds like you're thinking with a #1 mindset. It also sounds like you think everyone here is preaching a #2 mindset. We're not. We're preaching #3.
People who care also don't want you to be a #2. I had a situation a few months ago where an animal shelter wanted to buy 500 units of XYZ. I told them that since they were a shelter I would sell it to them below my cost. They said, Oh no, we can't do that, you have to make money, you are a business. So they agreed to pay $1 above my cost. Why? Because they want me to stay in business too! They don't just want to save money today and have me disappear in a year.
 

Andy Black

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People who care also don't want you to be a #2. I had a situation a few months ago where an animal shelter wanted to buy 500 units of XYZ. I told them that since they were a shelter I would sell it to them below my cost. They said, Oh no, we can't do that, you have to make money, you are a business. So they agreed to pay $1 above my cost. Why? Because they want me to stay in business too! They don't just want to save money today and have me disappear in a year.
Exactly! I prefer to pay a monthly fee for the tools I use in my business.

$10/mth to use Loom? Great! They'll be around next month hopefully, and I love their product so I want them to have that money.
 
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LittleWolfie

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@ChrisV

Since I am unable to identify "nitpicking" or "combative questions "

My options are a) stop posting b) stop asking questions (which eliminates the value for me to learn)

Or c) the delay tactic, where I post with a longer delay to give you time to simmer down.

If people are willing to call me out and tell me exactly what the words are I can address it.

There's a concept in psychology called Reciprocity (covered extensively in Robert Cialdini's book 'Influence'.) Aside from sociopaths, most people feel very guilty if they're taking more than they're giving.
People have to believe that by giving you their money, they will be in a better place

If you go buy a cheeseburger for $4.00, it's because you perceive that the cheeseburger has more value than the $4.00 in your pocket. The point of creating value isn't necessarily to give away free shit... it's to make something that's more valuable then the price you're asking so people are compelled to buy.
Sure and the person selling the cheeseburger thinks they are better off with the $10 than a cheeseburger. The "value add" is just arbitrage between specialist, the exchange itself is what adds the value. The customer is just as important in adding value

No one considers if there is a cheeseburger free trial, or the sellers' attitude. Or do they? I never do.

If one wants £7,000 they need to provide something that somebody else values more than £7,000. Right? If the people lack the £7,000 then no matter how much you help,it will never come back

Pschyopaths tend to end up as CEOs

Take a look at all the cases of explotation,plenty of people do take advantage of the generous people.

Perhaps their are models where freemium,free trial works and modes where it never works.

@biophase what do you use to measure your value add?

I think criticism (especially constructive) amd feedback are a much better measure than likes because they are limited similar to money (you only have so much time)

If I knew each person's income I could calculate it precisely,in the mean time I would say #of posts in response is a much better indication of value than likes.

The exception being forums where they are limited, I like how steemium works,where you get crypto from people based on posts. The value is much clearer, feedback better and yoy get instant r


It is silly for me to measure value add here, because I lack the ability amd experience to add value to anyone. So I value add elsewhere (recently helping someone to recover important files for their college work from a broken laptop)

I then ask questions here in order to learn business

Though I have made a couple of attempts to add value by answering IT queries,I never received decent feedback
 
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Ismails

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The forum constantly mentions adding value first, rather than money chasing, then charging.

The thing is if you always constantly added value first,why woukd anyone pay you for anything? This is why I'm struggling with the concept.

So how do you decide the point when you have added enough value? When does adding value to someone first turn into basically working for them for free?

How many hours of free consultation would you give a non client? Or am I misunderstanding the point completely. I would appreciate any alternative ways of phrasing or examples (feel free to pm, or redirect me to an insider's thread) if you want to keep It quiet. As sometimes looking at things another way, can help make everything click.
Demarco Said this below example in his video!

Easy to Understand just like a Piece of Cake

26444
 

ChrisV

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Perhaps their are models where freemium,free trial works and modes where it never works.
Yea, when the product sucks. Or when you give away the entire thing without requiring users to pay, ie WinRar
 

Teddy L Wang

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Look at your posts "301" and your likes "148" (For every post you make you get 1/2 like.)

Now ask yourself are you adding value?

The reality here is that it's going to be hard for you to add "value" on this forum with your posts because you are limited by your experience in business and entrepreneurship.

Think about how you can help people get what they want.

Random example:
Say you live in an area with lots of elderly people.

Would delivering their groceries add value to their lives?
Would carrying boxes or helping with chores add value to their lives?
Would doing hard manual labor for them add value to their lives?

The answer in most cases would be: YES.

Now, if you did that for a few weeks, most of these people would insist on paying you because they see the value in what you are doing.

Then start a business that does that for 100, 1000, 1 million old people.
So you're saying to look locally in person or online and see how you could already add value to people without wanting anything in return? And in time, people will pay you for the value you brought them once they realize the difference in your absence?
 

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On mobile, so apolgies for formatting.
@ChrisV

Since I am unable to identify "nitpicking" or "combative questions "

My options are a) stop posting b) stop asking questions (which eliminates the value for me to learn)

Or c) the delay tactic, where I post with a longer delay to give you time to simmer down.

If people are willing to call me out and tell me exactly what the words are I can address it.



Sure and the person selling the cheeseburger thinks they are better off with the $10 than a cheeseburger. The "value add" is just arbitrage between specialist, the exchange itself is what adds the value. The customer is just as important in adding value

No one considers if there is a cheeseburger free trial, or the sellers' attitude.

If one wants £7,000 they need to provide something that somebody else values more than £7,000. Right? If the people lack the £7,000 then no matter how much you help,it will never come back

Pschyopaths tend to end up as CEOs

Take a look at all the cases of explotation,plenty of people do take advantage of the generous people.

Perhaps their are models where freemium,free trial works and modes where it never works.

@biophase what do you use to measure your value add?

I think criticism (especially constructive) amd feedback are a much better measure than likes because they are limited similar to money (you only have so much time)

If I knew each person's income I could calculate it precisely,in the mean time I would say #of posts in response is a much better indication of value than likes.

The exception being forums where they are limited, I like how steemium works,where you get crypto from people based on posts. The value is much clearer, feedback better and yoy get instant r


It is silly for me to measure value add here, because I lack the ability amd experience to add value to anyone. So I value add elsewhere (recently helping someone to recover important files for their college work from a broken laptop)

I then ask questions here in order to learn business

Though I have made a couple of attempts to add value by answering IT queries,I never received decent feedback
we're asking you to go through a shift in mindset. You're not seeing what we're talking about yet. Read that book I mentioned above, and let this all sink in over the course of a few months or a year or so. Practice what we're suggesting about giving.

I like your idea about answering IT questions on here. Forget about the feedback. Just give for giving's sake. You'll get better at it. You have to get into the mind of the people you're trying to help. Figure out what their true, unstated need is, and help on that. (this is an incredibly useful skill to have in sales)

Here's the thing, though. You'll start to discover that you know more about stuff than you thought you did. You'll find areas where you can give that you didn't think about before.

Those same areas can turn into serious money
 

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biophase

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@biophase what do you use to measure your value add?
I don't measure value and I don't think many others on here do either? Your problem is that you think that all motivation is self-centered. That people only do things to benefit themselves. And from this standpoint, you only must do things that somehow will benefit you.

Where and how am I adding value by answering this thread?

1) You could say that I'm adding value to you because I'm answering your question. I'm using my knowledge to teach you. So how much value did I gain for myself here? The answer is zero. I don't receive any value by answering your question. Maybe somewhere in the future I may get a "thank you" or a "like" from you.

2) You could say that I am demostrating my knowledge to others reading this thread and in turn, somebody reading this might hire me for my services or offer me thanks in the form of a present or a service.

Now, do you really think that I think about these 2 possibilities?

The exception being forums where they are limited, I like how steemium works,where you get crypto from people based on posts. The value is much clearer, feedback better and yoy get instant r
If this is what you think, you should be Paypaling money to everyone who has responded to any of your threads. Have you offered to do so?
 

Walter Hay

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I give for free because I enjoy helping people. It's as simple as that. Maybe if I needed the money I might act differently.

I had to begin offering a sourcing service at a fee, in order to reduce the excessive amount of time I was spending doing sourcing for free. I figured that if there is a charge involved, some people would be less inclined to ask for help on something that they could possibly do themselves if they thought about it, and that would save me time.

The fee is: "Whatever you think it is worth". Often I don't even receive a thank you. Yes there are people who take advantage of you, but I certainly don't grieve at losing what I didn't ask for anyway.

Other times I am staggered at the generous amount that is chosen as payment for my service. It warms the cockles of my heart to see that my help really is appreciated. I pass that money on to a charity.

Comments posted as a result of my help whether paid for or free, probably result in book sales, but that is another story.

Walter
 
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LittleWolfie

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Are you saying that you would rather ask Andy to do free work for you (because he's a nice guy and he might say Yes) rather than offering to pay him for his time to specifically help you?
No, I'm saying it is weird no else is asking him that.
the point isn't to become a charity
Then I am missing the point
Gee I F*cking wonder
Me too. That's why I am asking questions.

Yea and if there were a donation system, the same people who get 'likes' would be the same people who get donations.
I will believe it when I see it, I know that it is untrue for forums like steemit, where there is a pay and a like system.
I'm not trying to be a dick, but I don't get the impression you would add much value to whatever I was doing. Andy is helpful, personable, knowledgable. You're combative and argumentative and keep trying to nitpick everyone's posts.
No offense taken. Interesting, personally I'd never consider if a person is a" dick or not "when purchasing their product or service. I have to a admit I do like arguing(there is a reason I went to debate club every Wednesday for three years, after all|) so I actually consider people arguing and nitpicking with me as adding value (at least the value of enjoyment)
Phase 1) don't be a dick
Phase 2) do awesome work
Phase 3) ???
Phase 4) PROFIT
Serious question. Can you describe how say your provider of domestic cleaner services is convincing.

There was a book I read (can't remember the name) where the author did some academic research into the various mindsets of employees at various companies. He broke the mindsets down into three categories:
  1. scarcity / stinginess (always looking out for number 1, gotta get mine, zero sum game, etc)
  2. Helpful / always giving (would always look for a way to add value to a situation, regardless of the personal cost)
  3. Helpful / giving when appropriate (I don't remember the term he used for this mindset, which is too bad because it was really good, but the key was that these people had a mindset of adding value wherever they went, but not at the expense of their own personal goals.

Guess which mindset made the most money / was promoted the fastest / etc?
I guessed #2


The third one, by far.

It sounds like you're thinking with a #1 mindset. It also sounds like you think everyone here is preaching a #2 mindset. We're not. We're preaching #3.
Interesting, you might think I'm nitpicking. However I give money to the red cross(because I believe in their misson and I am unable to give blood) I have volunteered for charity, however I think that is part of what @AndyBlack talks about with visibility. A #2 mindset with no visibility on their giving looks like a #1 mindset, while a #2 mindset would never consider visibility (or even the problem of the visibility negatively adding to their assistance. People are proud and might prefer their charity to be kept quiet)

The "go giver" was the one that covered the concept of the "locksmith effect" as well , right?

I like your idea about answering IT questions on here. Forget about the feedback. Just give for giving's sake.
so ignore likes(feedback)?
I don't measure value and I don't think many others on here do either?
Are you saying that you never look at how many likes you get then? Or how popular your posts are? Because that is a way of measuring value. If this true then I can continue and ignoring any high-end posters getting annoyed at me or how few likes I get.

Is the poster earlier who said I should look at how few likes, I get per post an outlier? Are they thinking with #1 and I should ignore them in your opinion?



Where and how am I adding value by answering this thread?
1) You could say that I'm adding value to you because I'm answering your question. I'm using my knowledge to teach you. So how much value did I gain for myself here? The answer is zero. I don't receive any value by answering your question. Maybe somewhere in the future I may get a "thank you" or a "like" from you.

2) You could say that I am demostrating my knowledge to others reading this thread and in turn, somebody reading this might hire me for my services or offer me thanks in the form of a present or a service.

Now, do you really think that I think about these 2 possibilities?


[/QUOTE]

Yes it is like the heisienberg principle, it is impossible to add value for nothing while being aware of how value can be returned, because the very knowledge influces the result. It is why extreme people with mindset #2 become monks and give everything away, because they want to avoid the value add coming back to them.

You are missing the whole point of likes on this forum. Do you think I'm trying to get likes? Is that my motivation for replying to your post right now? Is my motivation to extract money from you? What is my motivation for choosing to hit the reply button?

Because you measure your value add in terms of money gained, that is precisely the reason that it is eluding you.

If I were to use your thinking... this is how I would have replied to your initial post.

"Sure you can add too much value. I bet you are giving away too much for free. I can show you exactly how to do just enough to show that you are competent to make it easier for people to want to pay you. PM me, and we can talk on Skype, It would only be $300 an hour."
If you can't comprehend giving for giving's sake, then you yourself will never be able to do the same.
Sure can, it is called charity, and you never worry about whom you offer it to or if the value comes back. MIndset #2 yet they are at the bottom.

And if you can't do this, the people you come in contact with will see that you aren't truly giving, but doing something because you expect something in return. In fact, you are marketing in a sneaky way. Maybe that's why people won't pay you.
If I was truly giving, then I would (and do) give to a charity or to someone unable to give me anything in return I'd except you all to be on mindset #2. You may as well just give all your profits to charity

I spent a lot of time "adding value" before I started trying to do anything else. I know lots of other people who gave up their afternoon to clean up rivers and ponds, and look after ponds on the frog, ad other things that are good for the environment and helps out the local population. None of them ever have anything come back, they are all mindset #2

To me the whole mindset #3 seems like a sneaky marketing trick, just being honest and call it a loss leader product.

Now regarding my offer and why it sounds tempting to you. Think.

Honestly? The copy. You identify my problem and offer a solution. I can imagine a time to value point in minutes.

While I would enjoy a greater income, and I can see this might be obtained from Instagram it could take weeks or months to obtain. I will feel the pain next payday,, whereas with your offer I am feeling the pain now.

Why does my offer sound more tempting than some random person that PMs you?
I'd be just as tempted if a random person had sent me a PM with that copy saying I have seen your thread (link to here) and your phrasing.
Why would you pay me $300/hr?
Because you are offering a service which solves a problem I am having and my pain point is graeter than $300.

You don't know me.
So what? I don't know the guy who wrote give and take and I purchased his book
I could just take your money and run.
This is why escrow services exist. I trust the government (otherwise I would be uninterested in their fiat money) and I trust in SEC/FCS and other protection and regulation of services like escrow.com or transpact.com or I can use a credit card and claim section 75 protection. There is no reason for you to refuse either if your honest.


Isn't it because you've read some of my other posts? Isn't it because you have some background information about me? How is this different than @Andy Black's posts that you've seen?
No. It is because you are offering a service which solves a problem I have.

I ordered a copy of "give and take" with no information on the author, no background detail.(well the name was posted, I forget it though) the author has a product which could solve my problem, that is enough for me to order it. The shopkeeper could take my money and run for all I know.

I think what you are obliquely referring to is the concept of "social proof" call me an early adopter or analytical innovator or first follower, however I'm part of the 15% of the population whom sees absolutely no value in "social proof" or background info.


So someone liking your post is not good enough and you expect people to donate/give you money if you had added value to them?
Do I expect it no? Would I value it? More than a like yes. Is a like good enough? Well I'm uninterested in likes, they are worthless to me, so I'm fine if no one ever bother sends to me any.
[/QUOTE]

You think this because a LIKE costs the other person nothing and it is of no value to you.
Well pretty much.
You want money because that COSTS the other person something of value, and it provides you something of value.
I want money because it can be exchanged for goods and services which I enjoy. I'm fine with barter too which is a nice formal way of adding value where everyone has a ledger and is trying to add more value for themselves. It is how I managed to get my new-to-me computer. I did work which was valued more than a computer by someone who had a spare computer which I valued more than the work I provided.

Both parties had more value at the end, and both parties freely admitted the self interest involved (otherwise barter would fail) , yet just randomly adding value with no expatiation of return, just yields a happy charity. Nobody ever gives back(though perhaps that has to with visibility more)

If you hold the door for someone and they say thank you, are you happy with that exchange?
Yes, I value Thank Yous
You've provided a little value but holding the door, you've saved them some energy. In exchange, they said two words to you.
True, a barter transaction.
Is that not like someone clicking, LIKE to a post?
No because I place no value on likes, there is no coincidence of wants. I want to be thanked, I have no interest in being liked. Plus it takes a fraction of a second to click a like button and around 2 second to say thank you.

So it would take a lot of likes to equal a thank you, if I actually valued likes anyway.

Do you expect them to grab their wallet and give you a quarter?
No, all though it has been offered and was appreciated much more than likes or thank you's

People who care also don't want you to be a #2.
I think this is a key part too. Add value to people who care in a visible manner and avoid giving away the entire box of cookies that is a long way from "Add Value"

Demarco Said this below example in his video!

Easy to Understand just like a Piece of Cake

View attachment 26444
I'm actually struggling to understand that, maybe @broswoodwork can explain it to me in a way I understand.

I would say if you have a business you are chasing money by default In fact the very act of finding out what the cat/money wants is itself an act of chasing it, so the entire thing is nonsensical.

Although I can certainly apply this towards getting views or posts.
 
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LittleWolfie

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If I were to use your thinking... this is how I would have replied to your initial post.

"Sure you can add too much value. I bet you are giving away too much for free. I can show you exactly how to do just enough to show that you are competent to make it easier for people to want to pay you. PM me, and we can talk on Skype, It would only be $300 an hour."
If you were to use my thinking, you would have replied to my initial post with ;

Good Question. I have no idea either. Maybe someone else will know. Let me know if you find the answer.

I would never have thought of a response along those lines. It is interesting that you did.

Let me imagine how each mindset form the book would reply to the initial post.

Mindset #1 either no reply or yes any value is too much!

Mindset #2 no you can never add to much value too anyone ever!

Mindset #3 Yes and you can add too little value as well!
Me: Huh that is interesting, like Goldilocks and the porridge then

None of you actually replied with anything like any of those, which is interesting.

Now let me imagine how I would expect each mindset to reply to your offer(which I would never have thought about)

MIndset #1 Yea, right. I never give anything away for free(they always think of themselves first, right?) waste of time.

Mindset #2 Ah, that explains it. (it is strange that most people posting claim to have that problem, yet none of them have said that they wish your offer was real.) It sounds tailored made for a mindset #2, why am I the only one tempted?

Mindset #3 Nope, I have no problem there.

My hypothesis is most of you are actually mindset #4 and think your #2
 

broswoodwork

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I'm actually struggling to understand that, maybe @broswoodwork can explain it to me in a way I understand.
I'm coming in without having read any of the rest of the thread, so I don't really know what else is going on.

If you're struggling with the concept of why not to chase money, it may help to remove money itself from the value equation. Money is just an extra step.

Money is just a stand in (like a variable in math) for what you, and everyone else actually want and need.

Return to the primitive:
You, the farmer, want X; the butcher needs Y, but produces X. Thankfully, as a farmer you produce more Y than you need, so you need give him enough of what he values that he can part with what you need.

Money acts as a place holder, when the butcher wants Z. You have no value to give the butcher with your excess Y, so your value has to be channeled to the wanter of Y, in exchange for money, with which you can buy X and the farmer can buy Z.

See? Chasing money is a phantom. It's just chasing a means of exchange.

So you may say, "so I just chase X?"

Not really, but kind of.

What you need to do is switch your mind to the producer mentality, and chase the best value you can put out into the world. What is your Y? How much of it can you produce? How much exchange value will butchers give you for it? And how do you give it to as many butchers as possible?

Then, you'll have all of the X you'll ever need.

Also, good morning. I need coffee.
 

broswoodwork

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I'm coming in without having read any of the rest of the thread, so I don't really know what else is going on.

If you're struggling with the concept of why not to chase money, it may help to remove money itself from the value equation. Money is just an extra step.

Money is just a stand in (like a variable in math) for what you, and everyone else actually want and need.

Return to the primitive:
You, the farmer, want X; the butcher needs Y, but produces X. Thankfully, as a farmer you produce more Y than you need, so you need give him enough of what he values that he can part with what you need.

Money acts as a place holder, when the butcher wants Z. You have no value to give the butcher with your excess Y, so your value has to be channeled to the wanter of Y, in exchange for money, with which you can buy X and the farmer can buy Z.

See? Chasing money is a phantom. It's just chasing a means of exchange.

So you may say, "so I just chase X?"

Not really, but kind of.

What you need to do is switch your mind to the producer mentality, and chase the best value you can put out into the world. What is your Y? How much of it can you produce? How much exchange value will butchers give you for it? And how do you give it to as many butchers as possible?

Then, you'll have all of the X you'll ever need.

Also, good morning. I need coffee.
To take that a step further, and put a bow on top, the first and primary two part question in value equation: Who is your butcher and what is their Y?

Answer that, and get to work giving them the best quantity and quality of Y that you can. Chase Y, even though you personally want X.

Edit: Back to the original picture of attracting vs chasing cats. If you want to be surrounded by cats, don't spend a second chasing cats; spend your time chasing the world's best cat food (or cat food relatively better in some way than what they can get nextdoor).
 
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LittleWolfie

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I'm coming in without having read any of the rest of the thread, so I don't really know what else is going on.

If you're struggling with the concept of why not to chase money, it may help to remove money itself from the value equation. Money is just an extra step.
I'm struggling with the concept of how you can accept money without chasing it. To me the former implies the latter.


I'm coming in without having read any of the rest of the thread, so I don't really know what else is going on.



Return to the primitive:
You, the farmer, want X; the butcher needs Y, but produces X. Thankfully, as a farmer you produce more Y than you need, so you need give him enough of what he values that he can part with what you need.
Yes I want money because I can use it in exchange for goods and or services. If most rent was pain in chickens or likes, then I would want those. Most suppliers ask for money so I want money.
See? Chasing money is a phantom. It's just chasing a means of exchange.
Money is also an excellent store of value, I the farmer have a good harvest this year, pay my expenses and store the surplus, when there is a smaller harvest I can pay the butcher for Z

As long it is a store of value and a means of exchange for items I want, it is worth having.
So you may say, "so I just chase X?"

Not really, but kind of.
It is the kind of I am struggling with.



What is your Y? How much of it can you produce? How much exchange value will butchers give you for it? And how do you give it to as many butchers as possible?


I like this line of reasoning, my answers in bold.

What is your Y? A few options, automate processes,save time and reduce expenses for companies, solve problems, sell solutions.
How much of it can you produce? 32767 units (assuming full time-production and none spent on marketing,sales or G&A)
How much exchange value will butchers give you for it? If I knew that, I'd have no need to be here,asking questions.

First off, I have to find butchers with a problem, willing and able to engage.
I expected them to be here(and I expect them to be companies or freelancers who are paid in piecemeal.Maybe authors?

And how do you give it to as many butchers as possible? Distribute as software, due to ease of scale and low per-unit cost

Then, you'll have all of the X you'll ever need.
Also, good morning. I need coffee.
Afternoon here. I need coffee in the afternoon, forget the morning.
To take that a step further, and put a bow on top, the first and primary two part question in value equation: Who is your butcher and what is their Y?

Equations, a good way of looking at it, much better than mindset.

Who is my butcher? Unsure, in order to test I need engagement with a large audience, and have no idea how to obtain that.

Nobody here is posting what their y is. What is your Y?

Hypothesis 1

Butcher is an author

Y is a wordpress plugin that automatically converts links to referral links.

Value is $30-$50 (US dollars)
Chase Y, even though you personally want X.
If I am chasing y then I am pursuing it in order to obtain it. Why would I want y when I want x? I think what you are getting at is chase x via providing y. Well yes, that is how economics work.

There is far too little complaining for me to identify a problem and offer a solution (a possible y)

@broswoodwork

I am in a barter club that has worked out for me in some ways. However there is less than a full coincidence of wants. My rent, gas food and transit need to be paid in £. Other Xses I want are market research,sales and copy writing services. No one is offering to barter those though.
 
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Dianne Cohen

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The forum constantly mentions adding value first, rather than money chasing, then charging.

The thing is if you always constantly added value first,why woukd anyone pay you for anything? This is why I'm struggling with the concept.

So how do you decide the point when you have added enough value? When does adding value to someone first turn into basically working for them for free?

How many hours of free consultation would you give a non client? Or am I misunderstanding the point completely. I would appreciate any alternative ways of phrasing or examples (feel free to pm, or redirect me to an insider's thread) if you want to keep It quiet. As sometimes looking at things another way, can help make everything click.
I have the same question.
 

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This is becoming exhausting. The small points you make in response to each statement aren't really useful.

What I'd suggest is that you summarize your position (for yourself...don't post it) in 2 sentences. Then, in 2 sentences write out what you're going to do and why.

And then do it.

Then, in a couple months, re-evaluate things. If you do come back and post about it, keep your responses short - a few sentences max.

(Notice the structure of what I wrote above. I didn't defend my positions. They live or die on their own. Why? I know that if you are open to what I'm saying, I don't need to say any more than what I said. If you're not open, expanding on each point until its so precisely made that a computer could execute on it won't make any difference.)
 

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Who is my butcher?
This is where it starts.
I'm struggling with the concept of how you can accept money without chasing it. To me the former implies the latter.




Yes I want money because I can use it in exchange for goods and or services. If most rent was pain in chickens or likes, then I would want those. Most suppliers ask for money so I want money.


Money is also an excellent store of value, I the farmer have a good harvest this year, pay my expenses and store the surplus, when there is a smaller harvest I can pay the butcher for Z

As long it is a store of value and a means of exchange for items I want, it is worth having.


It is the kind of I am struggling with.







I like this line of reasoning, my answers in bold.

What is your Y? A few options, automate processes,save time and reduce expenses for companies, solve problems, sell solutions.
How much of it can you produce? 32767 units (assuming full time-production and none spent on marketing,sales or G&A)
How much exchange value will butchers give you for it? If I knew that, I'd have no need to be here,asking questions.

First off, I have to find butchers with a problem, willing and able to engage.
I expected them to be here(and I expect them to be companies or freelancers who are paid in piecemeal.Maybe authors?

And how do you give it to as many butchers as possible? Distribute as software, due to ease of scale and low per-unit cost

Then, you'll have all of the X you'll ever need.


Afternoon here. I need coffee in the afternoon, forget the morning.



Equations, a good way of looking at it, much better than mindset.

Who is my butcher? Unsure, in order to test I need engagement with a large audience, and have no idea how to obtain that.

Nobody here is posting what their y is. What is your Y?

Hypothesis 1

Butcher is an author

Y is a wordpress plugin that automatically converts links to referral links.

Value is $30-$50 (US dollars)


If I am chasing y then I am pursuing it in order to obtain it. Why would I want y when I want x? I think what you are getting at is chase x via providing y. Well yes, that is how economics work.

There is far too little complaining for me to identify a problem and offer a solution (a possible y)

@broswoodwork

I am in a barter club that has worked out for me in some ways. However there is less than a full coincidence of wants. My rent, gas food and transit need to be paid in £. Other Xses I want are market research,sales and copy writing services. No one is offering to barter those though.
I'm probably ill- equipped for this. I'm a fuzzy logic type of guy, and despite my sincerest intentions to help you understand that you need to turn the value pyramid upside down, and take a market first approach, I may lack the language and formal logic syntax (I definitely lack the time) to help you in a way that's most usable for you.

Are you able, even with great difficulty, to take some things as true on faith until you've formally analyzed them in depth? If so, i state unequivocally you will greater and quicker success in business picking your market before your product, and you pursue serving the aforementioned market with greater zeal than they are paying you to.
 

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Ismails

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I will be honest, I used to struggle to understand that too man, its been so many years
You are not alone
But with Improvisation, we can learn it
That's what this forum makes it awesome
Props to Demarco Sir!

In FB, you will notice, people say: "Add/Give Value"
What does it mean actually?
It means: You Give Value and Never Ask Anything in Return Immediately
I know based on our social condition and programming, we were raised to take advantage whenever we can = This is wrong way to do but its not our fault. We tend to copy other people and don't give them credit. I think there is a caveat too!


You Said: "If you have a Business you are chasing money by default" = This is wrong Thought Process

The more you chase money, you won't make money

The Cat implied the Customers, not the money



Yes We all human beings want to make money but Money isn't First & Foremost Priority

In Short, Solve a Problem in the Marketplace & Money Will Follow
See Money is the 2nd Step

"Sell Them What They Want in the Marketplace"
"Give Them What They Need in the Marketplace"

You gotta understand the difference between "Needs" & "Wants"
To Understand Needs = Study Maslow's hierarchy of needs in google
Once you have Rock Solid Basic Foundation is covered of Needs, you can study "Wants"


The Goal is to get Leads by Offering Free Sample just like in Costco/Sams Club - Free Food Standing
Get Leads
Nurture Leads
Make Sale

This is what I understand!

But In order to make money, it depends on many factors/variables like:
1) Your Personality
2) Your Niche/Field/Theme/Passion - Whatever the word you want to use
3) Work
4) Work Plus Result

If you can deliver result, you are Gold man!
 
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biophase

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Are you saying that you never look at how many likes you get then? Or how popular your posts are? Because that is a way of measuring value. If this true then I can continue and ignoring any high-end posters getting annoyed at me or how few likes I get.

I want to be thanked, I have no interest in being liked. Plus it takes a fraction of a second to click a like button and around 2 second to say thank you.

So it would take a lot of likes to equal a thank you, if I actually valued likes anyway.
I will look at the likes on a particular post, but it's not something that I am searching for. If I had to click a button to see the number of likes a post got, I would never know.

So if MJ changed the like button to a thank you button, you would value them?

You have an odd value skew in your head. A 1/2 second click vs. a 2 second thank you makes a difference to you? What if you had to hold your mouse button down 5 seconds to get a like? Is that better?
 
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LittleWolfie

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You gotta understand the difference between "Needs" & "Wants"
To Understand Needs = Study Maslow's hierarchy of needs in google
I have studied maslow's hierarchy much more formally, a good way of helping me to understand. In summary money can be exchanged for items meeting physiological needs,therefore whether you want or need money depends on the planned use and amount of money you are after.

Maslow puts money as a physiological need( it is exchanged for food,shelter,water(and in some jurisdictions legally for sex) since you need shelter for survival and need money to buy shelter ( is it given away for free to everyone?)

For anyone living in a capitalist society you absolutely require money(in the capacity of a means of exchange)

The second tier of independence also requires money albeit in a larger amount than the first. The saftey requires financial freedom (what if your fired? How will you afford shelter? )or dj marco concept of the first non fastlane company(i forget what he calls it)

This requires money in the capacites of **store and value** and means of exchange. I suppose it could be argue you want independence and therefore need money.
 
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LittleWolfie

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expanding on each point until it’s so precisely made that a computer could execute on it won't make any difference.)
That would make a huge difference. I can execute those instructions and GCC stands ready! If a computer can do it, then the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room argument can suggest that it is the appearance of the mind-set rather than the mind-set itself is important. Just like how my back brace gives me the appearance of confidence by correcting my posture that appears in confident.

I will look at the likes on a particular post,
Huh, I never do. That sounds like chasing likes to me. Since I have no interest in being liked or obtaining likes, I never bother to look at the balance, if I had no interest in money, I would never bother to look at the balance (and go bankrupt)

You have an odd value skew in your head
Perhaps this is why I am struggling to follow your mind-sets and be understood. I'm the only one on record as saying you can have too much money.

I know you were being facetious, 50k is too much for me though...

Now if you had mind-set #2, surely giving away as much money as possible would maximise the number of people you could help? The less you live on, the more you can give away and the greater number of people you can help. It seems weird that none of you jumped in there to say yes, you can have too much money (This is the kind of behaviour I'd expect from a bunch of mind-set #1 people.)

There is no suggestion here that any of you are mind-set #1, I'm sure there are some other plausible explanations; just that it is hard to distinguish mind-set from the actions alone.


. A 1/2 second click vs. a 2 second thank you makes a difference to you?
The latter is 4 times more valuable than the former.
What if you had to hold your mouse button down 5 seconds to get a like? Is that better?
Yes, it is more valuable however even if it a thousand times more valuable, 1000 times zero is still zero. I ascribe absolutely no value whatsoever to likes.

So if MJ changed the like button to a thank you button, you would value them?
{/QUOTE]

You would think so. However thinking about it more it is the non-fungbility and variability of the thank you that I like.

When I hold the door people might say "Thank you", "Thanks" ,Thanks a lot", "cor,sick" "Sorry, no tip" or doff their hat and say "Thoust help is most appreciated" all of these are much more interesting and valued to me than a clicking of like button.

The reactions should in theory have more value to me than the likes however they don't, although maybe if everyone had their own creation they might.

QUOTE="Walter Hay, post: 802051, member: 26072"]
Maybe if I needed the money I might act differently.
Perhaps when I no longer need money, I will act in a manner more like you.
 

SteveO

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Likes are vanity, profit is sanity. I measure my value add in terms of money gained. I have no interest in being liked.
You are correct in a sense. The best way for you to add value is to continue to build your business and share your experiences along the way.

You asked a legitimate question here that will likely add value to you and others.
 

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That would make a huge difference. I can execute those instructions and GCC stands ready! If a computer can do it, then the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room argument can suggest that it is the appearance of the mind-set rather than the mind-set itself is important. Just like how my back brace gives me the appearance of confidence by correcting my posture that appears in confident.
No, it wouldn't. This needs to make sense for you emotionally first. (but I'm a logical, not emotional thinker) No, you're not. NO one is. I'm a Myers-Briggs INTP personality type. I'm the very definition of logical. I'm also 45 and have been there/done that already. Believe me when I say that you'll save yourself a ton of time by not over-analyzing everything like you're doing here.

Please. Let all this sink in. Slow down. Breathe. Try some of this out. Come back and tell us your *experiences* with it. But not for a month or two.
 

biophase

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is 4 times more valuable than the former.
Yes, it is more valuable however even if it a thousand times more valuable, 1000 times zero is still zero. I ascribe absolutely no value whatsoever to likes.
You make absolutely no sense to me at all. I’m definitely not getting any value from this thread so I’m done.
 
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LittleWolfie

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You make absolutely no sense to me at all. I’m definitely not getting any value from this thread
This is actually a pretty good explanation of how I feel when most people try to explain mindset to me.

Though I l'm far from done,because I think there could be value added if only someone can explain it in a way that makes sense.

I'm suprised at a business person unable to understand my point via basic math,perhaps this is where I am going wrong.
 

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