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HOT TOPIC Can you add too much value?

NursingTn

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To OP:

Are you interested in philosophy or results?

If what you seek is financial freedom, then do whatever you must to make your business succeed. Businesses that tend to succeed help people overcome a problem. Sometimes, businesses are too small and lack credibility in people's eyes. In this case, such businesses may need to do "free" work until they become credible enough for people to start paying.

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If what you seek is elaboration on the idea of "chase value, not money", then here:

Solve problems to add value. Add a price to your solution to see if people feel it's worth paying for to solve their problems. If they don't pay you to solve their problems, then it is ultimately a problem with perceived value. People aren't paying you because they do not believe it is worth it.

You can convince them it's worth it by doing free work, giving them a taste of it. Since you seem to be in IT, look at softwares. Versions of this "free work" includes trials, access to a software that is limited on features unless you pay for access to get the rest of the features, etc.

"Free work" is ultimately to convince prospective customers that, yes, your service/product is worth it. You do this until people believe you're worth paying for to solve their problems.

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OP, I have seen many forum members I respect and admire respond to you. I hope you will one day understand the message they are trying to tell you: Simply care about people. Respect them. Appreciate them. Love them for who they are and what they can become. All of the wonderful people that have responded to you did so because they just care about you and want you to succeed since they just care.

Why do I care that you understand them one day? Because empathy and compassion will make you way happier than money ever would; science proves it. I want you to be happy because, why not? You deserve it simply by virtue of existing.
 

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LittleWolfie

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To OP:

Are you interested in philosophy or results?
Since everyone here claims results come from mindset(philosophy) then the philosophy is aprior to results.

Unless they are wrong, or someone else can achieve results in which case I simply need to find a hypothesis,I can test and quantify.

If what you seek is financial freedom, then do whatever you must to make your business succeed.
That sounds like money chasing mindset to me,however we can leave that to the philosophers

Businesses that tend to succeed help people overcome a problem.
Sure and my problem is finding an audience with a problem. Well and we also need to define success. Does $40k salary from business count? What about $4?

Sometimes, businesses are too small and lack credibility in people's eyes.
Ah, good catch. There are of course several ways to add the appearance of credibility ( virtual office, own domain, borrow office,social proof)

n this case, such businesses may need to do "free" work until they become credible enough for people to start paying.
I'm unsure why you quote "free" work.
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If what you seek is elaboration on the idea of "chase value, not money", then here:
Well yes. That is the entire point of this thread .


Solve problems to add value.
I like it, completely ignores mindset.

Add a price to your solution to see if people feel it's worth paying for to solve their problems.

If they don't pay you to solve their problems, then it is ultimately a problem with perceived value. People aren't paying you because they do not believe it is worth it.
Yes and at that point there is no reason why I should do the work,if they perceive no value, I should go and find someone else who does.


You can convince them it's worth it by doing free work, giving them a taste of it.
You can maybe, I'm unable too.
 
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LittleWolfie

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Since you seem to be in IT, look at softwares. Versions of this "free work" includes trials, access to a software that is limited on features unless you pay for access to get the rest of the features, etc.
Since you seem to be in IT, look at softwares. Versions of this "free work" includes trials, access to a software that is limited on features unless you pay for access to get the rest of the features, etc



I have most of those have terrible economics and require constant VC $ and monetiseation problems due to the penny gap. All of the successful bootstrapped ones avoided free trials until they reached around 1 million Annual recurring revenue.

"Free work" is ultimately to convince prospective customers that, yes, your service/product is worth it. You do this until people believe you're worth paying for to solve their problems.
Unless people see more value than the cost of production it is a hobby
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Because empathy and compassion will make you way happier than money ever would; science proves it.
Can we swap studies? Because mine says otherwise.
 

Andy Black

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broswoodwork

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Littlewolfie, I want to crack your code so desperately. Helping you is becoming my cat food, but what I really want is to help my own son.

My 11 year old son is autistic, as I've mentioned before, if I ask or tell him to do something, he'll ask a bottomless series of "why?"'s. I don't want to put money in a trust fund for him, to keep him from being abused and helpless in some horrible group home; i want to give him a "small loan of one million dollars" to conquer the world.

Does laying my motives bare help shed light on the philosophical underpinnings of value first.

If I can help you, even in some small way, I can expand upon that to help others. Normally, the others in most scenarios would be for profit, but my ambition is worth more than mere stuff.

Please don't rip what I just said to its atomic constituents. Just accept that value grows exponentially and builds upon itself to the point that all the riches (tangible and otherwise) flow towards the mind that pushes value first.
 

Andy Black

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Andy Black

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Just accept that value grows exponentially and builds upon itself to the point that all the riches (tangible and otherwise) flow towards the mind that pushes value first.
^^^ This.

As someone once said: “Keep doing the right thing. Have faith that the results will follow.”
 

biophase

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This is actually a pretty good explanation of how I feel when most people try to explain mindset to me.

Though I l'm far from done,because I think there could be value added if only someone can explain it in a way that makes sense.

I'm suprised at a business person unable to understand my point via basic math,perhaps this is where I am going wrong.
I tried via basic math, but you didn't answer the question.

Please answer this then, If MJ changed the "like" button to say "thank you" and you had to hold the button down 5 seconds before it registered.

Would you value the button thank you as much as a holding the door thank you?

You have said:
- Yes, I value Thank Yous
- I place no value on likes, there is no coincidence of wants. I want to be thanked, I have no interest in being liked. Plus it takes a fraction of a second to click a like button and around 2 second to say thank you.

Try do define why you value a thank you in person vs. a "like or whatever text the button says" on a forum.
 
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LittleWolfie

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I tried via basic math, but you didn't answer the question.
I must have missed it, sorry. Can you repeat it?

Please answer this then, If MJ changed the "like" button to say "thank you" and you had to hold the button down 5 seconds before it registered.

Would you value the button thank you as much as a holding the door thank you?
No

You have said:
- Yes, I value Thank Yous
I value somebody thanking me for holding the door, I like how every thank you is unique like a snowflake, as people all have their own mannerisms,personality and tone.

I place zero value on clicking a button regardless of what the button is labelled. There might be value from the action the button produces (I value the product of the post reply button in varying amounts depending on the post content)


Try do define why you value a thank you in person vs. a "like or whatever text the button says" on a forum.
Non-fungibility
 

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QuantumLeap

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Selling $100 bills for $50 is a good way of adding value, nobody runs a business literally doing that though even though it adds value. If you think it works that way, are you selling $100 bills for $50? When you do I will believe, you talk is cheap, money talks. Or are you only doing transactions that add value to you too.
However most of these assholes who scam people will try and have you believe that is what they are doing
 
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LittleWolfie

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However most of these assholes who scam people will try and have you believe that is what they are doing
Yes and it becomes exceedingly difficult to screen them out. Especially as those who re not doing that, are unable to put forward a clear distinction or way to identify those like themselves who are genuine.

On the other hand the scammers will never offer fair pay, so it is easy for anyone who wishes to do so to make themselves known as genuine.
 

biophase

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Non-fungibility
So if someone replies with a post and writes "thank you", it means more to you than that same person hitting the "thank you" button.

Is it because that person spent more time on it?
 
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LittleWolfie

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So explain what the difference is to you.
In the later case each "thank you" is unique, where as all button clicks are identical. They could write thanks, thank you or danke schon (value from uniqueness) whereas all the likes are identical.

I think part of this also comes form being more task-orientated rather than social-orientated. For instance, if I go to work and no one likes me that is fine,let us just get the job done. If I am unable to like them that is cool too, I'm there to work rather than to make friends.

Where as social-orientated people need to be liked, in order to feel able to complete the tasks before them.

I see no reason why this culture should fail to translate to business. The customers' desire defines the task, I complete them in exchange for money, no need for anyone to like each other it is just business.

Do you like the large corporations you do business with?
 

biophase

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Where as social-orientated people need to be liked, in order to feel able to complete the tasks before them.

I see no reason why this culture should fail to translate to business. The customers' desire defines the task, I complete them in exchange for money, no need for anyone to like each other it is just business.

Do you like the large corporations you do business with?
Ah, so this is where you are probably having problems. If I need someone to cut my lawn and I had to choose between a dickhead and a nice guy for the same price. If all things are equal I'm always choosing the nice guy.

So for the dickhead to compete, he would need to do a much better job or be at a lower price.

But what if both guys I had to choose from were dickheads. I guess I'd had to pick one.

I don't like all the companies I do business with, but I will do business with some because I have no other choice. Nobody likes their internet or cable TV company, but everyone deals with their BS. But what happens when another company comes around that provides the same service and is LIKED?

People didn't like cab drivers for many reasons, so when Uber comes around look at what happened.
 

Johnny boy

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The forum constantly mentions adding value first, rather than money chasing, then charging.

The thing is if you always constantly added value first,why woukd anyone pay you for anything? This is why I'm struggling with the concept.

So how do you decide the point when you have added enough value? When does adding value to someone first turn into basically working for them for free?

How many hours of free consultation would you give a non client? Or am I misunderstanding the point completely. I would appreciate any alternative ways of phrasing or examples (feel free to pm, or redirect me to an insider's thread) if you want to keep It quiet. As sometimes looking at things another way, can help make everything click.
Selling something involves 3 parts.

1. They need to know you exist
2. They need to decide they want to give you money
3. You get their money

Offering value is a lubricant that helps you get numbers 1 and 2 accomplished.

It just increases a conversion rate. The perception of value is in a hundred different things that might not actually take away from your bottom line.

When I show up and sign up a customer wearing a polo shirt and I'm a clean cut guy in his 20's, that's value. I don't need to offer free lawn care to anyone to give value. I can call back on time and have a nice website. I can have a good ad on craigslist. I can have a business that takes credit card payments automatically instead of sending invoices or taking cash. All value adding.

I "give" $5 for a craigslist post. Maybe that's offering value in a weird way. It helps with my awareness tremendously.

"why would anyone pay you for anything?"

Because people WANT stuff. Think about what you REALLY WANT and think about how quickly you'd throw money at someone if they could give you what you wanted.

If I said I could snap my fingers and give you a six pack instantly. How much would you give me? Think about how strong that desire is for some people.

Life is not some perfect zero-sum game of perfect market equilibrium where profit is impossible and everything sucks. It's a glorious place where people are out there making millions and having fun doing it. There's a whole big world of money flying around and you can get some of it.
 
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LittleWolfie

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If I need someone to cut my lawn and I had to choose between a dickhead and a nice guy for the same price. If all things are equal I'm always choosing the nice guy.

But what happens when another company comes around that provides the same service and is LIKED?
Really? I'd pick the one that was best at lawn cutting.

Of course none of you will tell me what makes me a dickhead. Did I swear at anyone? Sometimes I get told it is tone,which is no value add as I'm tone deaf.

Perhaps I'm too honest and unwilling to tell bullshit,the thing is if you never ask they won't tell you.

I should probably try something where I have no customer contact whatsoever.

I think getting social proof and trust by engaging outside of sales is going to fail for me.
 
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LittleWolfie

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It means: You Give Value and Never Ask Anything in Return Immediately
Great value, emphasis mine.

No, it wouldn't. This needs to make sense for you emotionally first.
So do you think people who are unable to understand emotions are unable to have success at business?

No one is.
Then how do you explain these conditions being in the DSM? Failure to understand emotions of others sounds like the very definition of a sociopath to me.

I'm a Myers-Briggs INTP personality type. I'm the very definition of logical. I'm also 45 and have been there/done that already. Believe me when I say that you'll save yourself a ton of time by not over-analyzing everything like you're doing here.
Have you also been diagnosed by a medical doctor with having an issue understanding emotions? Let us make sure we are learning from people like us.

Please. Let all this sink in. Slow down. Breathe. Try some of this out. Come back and tell us your *experiences* with it. But not for a month or two.
I gave it a whole year, check the spacing between my posts.....

I can tell you now the intervening year has lead to none of the previous posts making absolutely no more sense whatsoever. You know what has made a difference? People answering questions in rapid succession, further expounding upon their initial point and allowing me to distill the wisdom.

Add value in a visible way to people who care (and can afford your rates) and ask them for people whom might need your help, ask the people you are referred to if they are interested/for the sale the 2nd time you meet them* and delay asking the first people for something in return for at least 30 days.

*I'm including skype/chat/forums as well as in-person for meet.

Now that is something, I can spend 60 days trying and report back on without worrying about mindset., and yes a computer could implement that, once you define Add Value and Visible way variable.


@Jon L

Does that paragraph make sense to you given your personality type?

Either I'm right, make money and mindset is irrelevant(at least for me, and I can write a program to do my work for me....) or your right and I have only wasted 60 days instead of a year.....

I have had a similar experience with this in social circles, everyone says "mindset" matters, however actions were what I found to be effective, just like how con men can make money by pretending to add-value (do you think they have the right mindset?)


Think about what you REALLY WANT
That is easy (40k per year) I'd give 10% of income. I'd also pay money for someone to keep answering all my mindset related questions.
 

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brewster

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Good value to be found in the replies here. So for that, it's worth it.

But this is one of those cases of throwing pearls before swine. You'll only be left more frustrated if you're trying to, and actually believe you can, convince. You can't.
 
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LittleWolfie

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Good value to be found in the replies here. So for that, it's worth it.

But this is one of those cases of throwing pearls before swine. You'll only be left more frustrated if you're trying to, and actually believe you can
What exactly do you need to believe? Pretend your knocking on my door trying to convert me. What are the ten commandments?
 

MoreValue

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The forum constantly mentions adding value first, rather than money chasing, then charging.

The thing is if you always constantly added value first,why woukd anyone pay you for anything? This is why I'm struggling with the concept.

So how do you decide the point when you have added enough value? When does adding value to someone first turn into basically working for them for free?

How many hours of free consultation would you give a non client? Or am I misunderstanding the point completely. I would appreciate any alternative ways of phrasing or examples (feel free to pm, or redirect me to an insider's thread) if you want to keep It quiet. As sometimes looking at things another way, can help make everything click.
It just depends on your budget to be honest. Providing more value requires more time or money. That is all. Adding value is never ever free.

It is easy to have the intention to be generous, but the follow-through is with time and money.

But there is a threshold of value you need to hit. Example, if you choose the smallest value to add (because you are poor) it is 99% of the time a me-too business. Aka, it won't last.

Add enough value where it is hard enough for others to add the same value.
 
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LittleWolfie

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Well step 1 was easy,no issue with my mindset blocking sucess there.

Perhaps you need to overcome mindset issues to get to step 2.

Method day cost hit rate
In-person mon £22.50 3/3
Phone calls mon £0.15 0/10
Emails Mon 3Hrs 1/10
Texts Mon * 4/10

* too cheap to measure.

Just need to figure out if I should concentrate on building up step 1 first or should try step 2.
 
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LittleWolfie

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When I show up and sign up a customer wearing a polo shirt and I'm a clean cut guy in his 20's, that's value.
@Johnny boy

Serious question, if the guy is wearing a hard hat,saftey boots caked in dirt and a grubby high vis covered in dust,would you still go with the polo shirt to add value?

instead of sending invoices
Wait people still do that?
 

Johnny boy

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I figured you may make an educated guess, based on say market knowledge or pictures of them on site rather than get laughed off site with your shiny shoes......
I go to residential homes to sign people up for lawn care contracts when I wear a polo shirt. I don’t mow lawns in shiny shoes.
 

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