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Can you add too much value?

Discussion in 'General Entrepreneur Discussion' started by LittleWolfie, Jul 24, 2018.

  1. LittleWolfie
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    LittleWolfie Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    The forum constantly mentions adding value first, rather than money chasing, then charging.

    The thing is if you always constantly added value first,why woukd anyone pay you for anything? This is why I'm struggling with the concept.

    So how do you decide the point when you have added enough value? When does adding value to someone first turn into basically working for them for free?

    How many hours of free consultation would you give a non client? Or am I misunderstanding the point completely. I would appreciate any alternative ways of phrasing or examples (feel free to pm, or redirect me to an insider's thread) if you want to keep It quiet. As sometimes looking at things another way, can help make everything click.
     
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  2. Everyman
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    Everyman Get To The Choppa! Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    There is a great book on it. It was mentioned in another thread (probably many times).

    It's "Give and Take" by Adam Grant.

    In a nutshell you should approach people and give value upfront without expectation to get something back. Then you can continue if you see the person/client is interested. You should probably feel it (I know it's vague, but it is common sense and experience). I don't think you could translate it to hours etc...

    The author in the book says it should be at the third time (when you 'give' something for free), when you should stop 'giving' if you don't get anything back from this relationship. And this is the way the most successful 'givers' operate.

    So give them one hour and see. You need to sacrifice more than that to prepare for a particular client anyway. He is also investing this hour to talk to a complete stranger to see if he can benefit. But don't do too much free work for one person. Usually they tend not to appreciate it or just don't know how to benefit from it anyway. When somebody is ready to open his wallet it means he is mentally prepared to take it seriously (sorry for vagueness but it applies to many areas).
     
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  3. Danny Sullivan
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    Danny Sullivan Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    I didn't experience "give value first" as "do stuff for free".

    I's your attitude. For example:

    You can write an e-mail to a company you want to do business with like this:

    Hello company xyz.

    Please send me your pricelist, i want to see where i can make $$$ for myself.


    Or this:

    Hello company xyz.

    Please send me your pricelist, i think i can help you with sales.


    Make it about them, not you - provide value first.

    Or i case of a product, you could write:

    My product has this and that and this and that what all the others don't have.

    Or:

    Our product will help you with this and that. And this and that will become easier for you.

    If you clean houses or company buildings, you could make your first cleaning free of charge, overdeliver and let them decide if they want to hire you.

    In case of consulting a non-client, i would consider giving them one session "for free" and point out what you can do for them, how you can help them, if they decide to engage with your service.

    Hope this helps.
     
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  4. LittleWolfie
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    LittleWolfie Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    That indicates that I'm missing the point entirely.

    This seems to be more about word choice than attitude, perhaps perception of attitude.

    That's helpful, thanks.

    You could add even more value by giving them ten sessions "for free" though. Why not spend all day value adding with that client? I presume you have some kind of point where you would cut this short.
    Why not 40 hours a week "value adding" to them "for free" ( actual "offers")

    Do you value add to anyone, or do you screen people to value add towards.

    Now I've no problem working for free(I like charities and non profits) I'm more than happy to work for Ubuntu or Linux Mint or Debian for free. If I'm working for free, I can work for well pretty much anyone and I'm not a money chaser, if I'm value adding to software that is given away and get no money out of it.

    It's figuring out that inflection point that I'm struggling with.

    Some actual examples would be a good learning tool for me. Do you think there are cases when there are specific types of people you shouldn't add value towards? Or should it be for everyone?
     
  5. PureA
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    PureA Winners never quit Speedway Pass

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    You add value to someone by getting in their head and serving up exactly what they would want before they even ask.

    Because this is so rare, it is hard to ignore.

    When you are looking to buy something and the sales copy addresses your top 3 concerns in the first paragraph... are you going to buy?

    Don't view adding value as you loosing something, you're not.

    You work hard for the needs of others, and through this you win their appreciation via smiles and £££.
     
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  6. Danny Sullivan
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    Danny Sullivan Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    I just assumed that a potential client of yours knows, that you're doing what you're doing to earn money. And i also assumed that this potential client was uncertain about wether or not he should make use of your services.

    Now, so that he/she can see for him- / herself that you're able to add value to their life, you offer a first consultation "for free". Your value proposition is not that "free hour", it's what you can add to their lifes overall, if they decide to go with your consultations.

    You sort of overdelivered with a free consultation, to show them the value you can add to their lifes.

    In my perception, i would add value to anyone. But there might also be a point where a person or a customer group is responsible for 80% of the work while delivering 20% or less to revenues (pareto principle) - i'd rather have customers that appreciate what i'm doing.
     
  7. Danny Sullivan
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    Danny Sullivan Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    And for the examples i've given above - just think about how you would experiences them if you were the receiving company or customer of these mails.

    Mails: Hm, that guy just wants to make quick buck vs. Wow, he's actually interested in working together and making us profit.

    Product: Hm, that guy's showing off what he did with that product vs. Wow, i never thought this could benefit me in that way.

    It might be perception, but it comes from your attitude towards it.
     
  8. LittleWolfie
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    LittleWolfie Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    This is the testing assumption. Sometimes they are absolutely sure they are not going to ever pay you for anything. You should do it for the "exposure"( read 5 Twitter friends) or "experience" well I can get that with Ubuntu or any number of charities. They just want to take take, I'm fine with an exchange of value.

    Maybe it is more poor screening of clients.

    To be honest, I would suspect a scam. What kind of companies regularly give away free consultations (admittedly this is because no one has ever approached me trying to add value)

    I guess it's because I'm easily suckered into believing people when they claim to be potential customers then turn out to be broke wanting to pay in "equity" or "exposure offering those deals is fine, but don't lie.

    Okay this might sound stupid, I'm not trying to be argumentative. Can you use another word instead of attitude? And/or give the exact definition your using.
    The point I'm trying to get across is that the perception can be divorced form the attitude, if you think the perception comes from the attitude, then we can't be using the same definition.
     
  9. Arun Siva
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    Arun Siva aspiring 大君 of the bourgeoisie Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass Summit Attendee

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    no such thing.... the more you give the more you will receive (not just monetarily but other ways as well)
     
  10. ZCP
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    ZCP Legendary Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    Add some value. Then offer additional service (your product) for a fee. If they got value, they are then likely to purchase your product because then they get even more value.

    Example: how much proposal / answering questions time should my engineering company put into a proposal? our time costs us a certain amount. profit on the job if we win it would be a certain amount. the likelihood of winning it is a certain percentage. Using numbers, if we put $1000 of time into a potential $40000 job that has a 50% profit that we win 4 out of 5 times (80%) ..... then we would expect $40000 x 0.5 x 0.8 = $16000 in job profit - $1000 in costs = $15000 overall job profit and we stay in business.

    'Well how much time do we put into getting them to the proposal stage?', you ask. If the example above, we could put more time into the proposal if we had people free to do so, right?

    If you are not working on paying work, then why not use your time to provide value for free to steer them to your product until you get someone to pay you to do more. You craft your 'initial offer or service' to entice them to buy. Like clean the den rug for free to get them to pay you to clean the rest of the rugs for a fee.

    Another way is to show SO much expertise, that when you do offer the service they instantly buy. As an example, at the moment @biophase has shown incredible expertise in ecommerce. He has 5627 posts on this forum that have received 22803 likes (4.05 likes per post). So when he offered a service for people to pay him to help them w/ ecommerce, people flocked to him with bags of cash.

    As another example with a leader offer, Chinese food place in the mall ..... offers you a sample on a toothpick (low cost to them) to get you to buy a full plate and drink (profit to them).

    So, to tie it together for you. What is your product/service? What value can you offer to get them to look at your product/service? If you have free time, use it to provide value to entice buyers or build expertise.

    Now, @LittleWolfie , please go DO something. Stop posting. Start doing. Stop action faking / over analyzing / asking for different wordings. At the moment, you have 298 posts that have received 144 likes (0.48 likes per post). If you keep posting instead of working, for the forum's sake please provide more value in your posts. That will then help you provide more value in your business.

    Now in return for the value I just provided to you (and the forum), please go work on your business. Get your business going. Spend time on that. Please. Please.
     
  11. Arun Siva
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    Arun Siva aspiring 大君 of the bourgeoisie Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass Summit Attendee

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    he has spoken.
     
  12. LittleWolfie
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    LittleWolfie Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    Cool, add some more value to me then please.
     
  13. Arun Siva
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    Arun Siva aspiring 大君 of the bourgeoisie Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass Summit Attendee

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    This is up to your intentions. I dont know your business model or what you provide. But if you are going after clients (leads) for the very first time, you may deem "working for them for free" but in actuality you are developing rapport and relationships so that in return they will return business to you or recommend you to their network.
     
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  14. Arun Siva
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    This is up to your intentions. I dont know your business model or what you provide. But if you are going after clients (leads) for the very first time, you may deem "working for them for free" but in actuality you are developing rapport and relationships so that in return they will return business to you or recommend you to their network.
     
  15. LittleWolfie
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    LittleWolfie Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    I'm trying to add value with my posts. Am I failing at that? What could provide more value? I did get a lot of my count up when I was in hospital, read and post was all I could do. I suspect it has slowed down a bit now I'm able to act too.
    Well, I've been trying to learn copywriting. Trying to get more people to take up Ubuntu. Although I'm not charging anything (add value first and gain experience/ practise copywriting)

    I've been trying to find people to work with whom are in a better location than me and can go speak to customers (perhaps a smaller dead end) as I can never get a large enough audience.

    I've also been doing the slowlane stuff and applying for jobs that will get me ti a larger area that will allow more fastlane type business to be viable (lawnmowing/window washing) something with warehouses/warehouse workers maybe(there are a lot of those about in the area I might be able to move towards)

    As for different words. Are you suggesting dictonary/thesaurus don't add value. I literally don't seem to be able to communicate with you and understand your point. How ever will I manage with customers? Is understanding terminology the way to overcome "this attitude problem" I literally don't understand what to do. It's like saying I'm too thingamybob rather than late. Now previously someone substituted honesty for authentic and I was able to glean the point, with no other changes. I really don't know why you think I have a negative attitude. Neither of you have given me a consultation "value add" so maybe forum posts are value add on their ow maybe not.

    If not, why hasn't the money come home to roost yet? What else am I doing wrong? What part of the puzzle am I missing?
     
  16. biophase
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    biophase Legendary Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    Why? Are you a potential future client?

    What you are asking is literally what you were asking about. You are asking for “do stuff for free” because there’s no potential for a value add here.
     
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  17. biophase
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    biophase Legendary Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    It’s ironic that your post above is a great example. When someone is asking please add value, then you shouldn’t do it, because you know there’s no ROI on it. Anyone asking for free stuff is a straight no.
     
  18. LittleWolfie
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    LittleWolfie Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    To value add because you always value add first don't you? Are you being hypocritical or am I missing the point? Surely anyone could be a potential future client? Who knows what I might achieve, when I have the direction and apply my self. Maybe in the future, I will be your largest client.

    Isn't that the whole idea behind value add? I'm not saying it's wrong (I've done it and do it, with no expectation of return) or have I missed the point and over analysed.

    It's looking more and more like, my problem is identify where and how there is potential for me value add, to act on. Then going for that, rather than throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks.
     
  19. LittleWolfie
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    LittleWolfie Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    Well it was a purposeful hypocrite test.

    I'm so glad of it, though because your response is perfect.

    That phrasing has just made it all click, thanks a lot. It is going on my wall

    I'm thinking t-shirt for that. It's great because it's not about mindset.It's still allows for charging and giving value. It still justifies my open source work(nobody asked for it) and spec work or pet projects.

    It gives a clear cut way to avoid this, "too much work for free" when they ask me, I can charge. When they dont ask me, I'm adding value. So forum posts can be adding value, when someone picks up on your work and then asks to chat, that's where they are asking me. If they want it, then they can pay me what the value I've added is worth. Or they can decline because I'm money chasing and I can go give it away instead, building value for someone in the future who does see my value.

     
  20. LittleWolfie
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    LittleWolfie Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    I'll update my progress thread when I've managed to make a £1 selling this. No luck so far.

    Last post in this thread by me. This was some of the execution I alluded to earlier.

    Now this got shut down where I was trying to advertise it,(gumtree,next door,th groups) which is a shame. Especially as I was trying to give away value.
    1. This will mostly be a hobby level project,but it's better than not starting at all.

      I've decided to add in some execution in which I try to increase the uptake of Ubuntu among non traditional users. By trying to promote it for free.

      This has a few advantages;

      I can't be a money chaser, if I'm giving away a value add for no charge.

      The product is already built and has lots of smart programmers.

      I get copywriting/marketing portfolio experience, Ubuntu gets exposure, and users get a need met. If I'm going to work for free, I can work for anyone at that price. I choose Ubuntu.

      No worries about VAT, and other complications, since I'm not making any money.

      I'm convinced there is a demand for it which can't be reached currently. Here's a chance for me to prove it.


      I've always been a fan of Debian based distros and now Ubuntu has moved away from unity back to Gnome it's rapidly gaining my heart back. I still think it's the most user friendly Linux version. Although I'm currently still running Lubuntu and puppy simply because my spare machines are cheap low resource units. I've got both on my main pc at the moment.

      If this works it could be a great way of providing an action orientated mindshift opportunity for future people approaching the forum here. No product, no capital? Well here's a product, now go get users.

    2. While the people here can give real feedback, after all something is being executed. I'm trying to introduce a product to a new audience, in a fastlane manner. The only difference is I don't want to make money.

      I could inspire others to do the same and their will be more people spreading it, even when I'm not.

      The whole community is way too tech orientated and badly nerds an injection of sales/marketing dna.

      The lessons learnt, and tapping people here could be really valuable lessons for them and anyone wanting to learn (since I'm not making money personally, I don't need to worry about competition if I'm detailed)

      So who do I want to use it? I want your average user who has never heard of Linux. They don't want a better OS or distro. They want cheap windows/Apple.

      So I wrote some copy, and went to put it up somewhere. I think I have chosen bad places (gumtree,craigslist) or sounded too scammy as I got blocked. I think i also need to learn to write copy so I don't sound like a bad infomercial writer who has moved on to buzzfeed.

      Here's the copy

      The one weird trick with badgers that software companies don't want you to know about.


      Hello guys and gals (and others)


      Do you use a computer? Are you using one right now to read this? (If not who printed it out?)


      Do you find it too expensive? Are you buying new software?


      Are you constantly looking for a cheap windows alternative?


      What if I told you, you didn't have to pay £50 to use proper office software, instead of dealing with the poor quality on the free apps?


      There's even more though.


      Not only is there a cheaper alternative, but it comes with lots of add one avalibile in the store, including free alternatives to popular office and image editing software!


      How much is it worth now? Well it’s below £30. But wait that's not all!


      You only need to replace once every 5 years, rather than each time the CEO wants a new Ferrari! Why should you pay for their bling bling?


      But wait there is even more.


      Free support from the builders through the online forum. Do you get that with your current provider?


      It just gets better and better, want multiple copies? Well you can have as many as you like! Feel free to copy it!!!


      It's not hundreds of pounds, it's not tens of pounds, it's not even ten pounds. We won't even charge you a hapenny.


      Get your free windows alternative now. It is called Bionic Badger Ubuntu, and you can download it right at the link below. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.

      Ubuntu 18.04 LTS (Bionic Beaver)


     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
  21. biophase
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    An example let some say in coding is that you are in a proposal meeting about coding a webpage and you make good suggestions like:

    I think you should go responsive because of xyz.
    I think blue is a better theme color because studies show it converts better
    I’d suggest you have 2 separate databases in your backend because xyz

    That’s all value coming from your experience.

    If you client says that sounds great can you do a mock up before I sign up?

    Then we are getting into the free part. Now you are doing actual work. Maybe you can make a non working single page in photoshop but don’t code anything.
     
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  22. IGP
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    Look at your posts "301" and your likes "148" (For every post you make you get 1/2 like.)

    Now ask yourself are you adding value?

    The reality here is that it's going to be hard for you to add "value" on this forum with your posts because you are limited by your experience in business and entrepreneurship.

    Think about how you can help people get what they want.

    Random example:
    Say you live in an area with lots of elderly people.

    Would delivering their groceries add value to their lives?
    Would carrying boxes or helping with chores add value to their lives?
    Would doing hard manual labor for them add value to their lives?

    The answer in most cases would be: YES.

    Now, if you did that for a few weeks, most of these people would insist on paying you because they see the value in what you are doing.

    Then start a business that does that for 100, 1000, 1 million old people.
     
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  23. sparechange
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    That copy is horrible, take it out in the backyard and burn it.

    As zcp said, take action.

    Sell a product, or a service. keep it simple, do something, anything just go. make $1
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  24. Late Bloomer
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    I'll need to come back to the entire thread later as I'm just checking in for a moment between errands. For the original poster, I can say, absolutely too much value delivery can be a problem.

    Value is what the customer (client, investor etc.) sees as improving their life and they are willing and able to pay for it at pricing that is profitable. If the buyer doesn't see what's delivered as useful, or if the buyer isn't willing or able to pay for it, then you are no longer doing business. You are generously giving away your production, in a form of philanthropy.

    On a small scale this could be a sensible investment in goodwill of happy buyers.

    On a larger scale it can destroy the company, because you're spending money to build far more than you can ever make back with sales.

    This is very clearly discussed in the Toyota Production System and in Six Sigma. There are several ways to waste money, manpower, equipment, and supplies when making a car, such as piling up unused inventory, and creating defective parts that have to be discarded. There are useful checklists available to help you make sure you aren't wasting your resources.

    A very important form of waste is Overprocessing. This is when you make additional improvements that cannot be sold or marketed for more than it cost to make them.

    A simple example would be to think of the cost of gold-plating anything that people usually don't buy at the prices it would take to gold-plate it.

    Toyota could cover every car with a layer of gold, which would sure make them all more shiny and beautiful. But Toyota could not make back that expense ever.

    Toyota makes a few cars at a higher quality level, for the smaller number of buyers who want a more luxurious car. For most cars, they get to good enough and then they stop.

    Rolls Royce never stops overprocessing, which is why they sell so fewer cars than Toyota. There just aren't that many really rich people who want a luxurious, custom, handbuilt art car.

    Overprocessing can be done in a service business as well. Someone who mows lawns could also clean the driveway with a toothbrush, but they'd never make money from that extra effort.
     
    Everyman likes this.
  25. ZCP
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    ZCP Legendary Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    this may help....

    luffy.jpeg
     

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