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GOLD! Lex DeVille's: Guru Cults Exposed: The Tactics "Experts" Use To Pull You In & Suck You Dry

GMSI7D

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For some reason this quote I ran into feels relevant here:

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” - Mark Twain


you can't really feel the pain that truth seekers feel

they see people being conned and they can't help them

because of two things

1) most people don't have the capacity to recover form early society porgramming

" do this , believe that , , learn this sh**t, , believe what we say, don't questions anything "

i am talking about 90 % of the population




2) manipulators are making sure that truth seekers won't go too far to free the masses

they will bel labelled as " crazy" , conspiracy nerds or whatever





imagine you are witnessing your children being conned by manipulators and you can't help them


HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ?


WOULD YOU CRY ?


then you have the answer

this is how truth seekers feel about people :

they cry because they can't help people


this is like you are witnessing your children dying in front of you



.
 

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Brad S

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Just gonna leave this here...

Funny.

Noah and Neville hate'n on Tai Lopez and his lucrative knawledge...

Maybe there's a tinge of jealousy because he's a better marketer and makes more money...

The crazy thing about Tai though is even though I know every gimmick the guy uses he still is one of the most interesting people to listen to talk...

Go figure.

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As a result of this forum I've chosen to build my copywriting skills. I've read about 10 books in the last month... including Ca$hvertising.

The authors all generally say the same thing [I'm paraphrasing]:

Selling is persuading, which by definition taps into people's psychology to get through the noise and their filters so they see the value and buy your product.


So to sum it all up... @SinisterLex ... what is your philosophy for using these techniques, building products, and staying on a more ethical path while still making money and charging people for a valuable product?

Obviously one can argue that the market will decide if a product is valuable, but after reading this thread, there could be some debate...
I’ve heard a copywriter state that copywriting is less important than the product - that you can’t polish a turd.

That’s what I believe too.

And that’s why I like AdWords paid search - because you sell to the people *already* looking to buy your product.

Personally, I prefer to think of sales as a screening process, rather than as a persuading process. Could be why I won’t read any copywriting or sales books anymore.

568 – Just Sell The Damn Thing With Doberman Dan
 
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Lex DeVille

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I researched Cambridge Analytica back in 2016 when I first heard about them.

This thread and the recent Facebook drama got me thinking about this video again.

Their business is very interesting and their CEO gives a great presentation.

View: https://youtu.be/n8Dd5aVXLCc


This is a look into a whole new level of manipulation.

Cambridge Analytica basically targets all the SCRIPTED people out there with Confirmation Bias using the Cancerous "social networks" and "main stream media" as the delivery mechanism.

It actually is genius.

@SinisterLex have you worked with any "Gurus" that have used data and psychographics to this extent?


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Only worked with a few who really put the effort in with data and psychographics. Most coaches wouldn't know the meaning of the words.

The only one's digging into those were upper tier. With one coach we used both with personality profiling to create new ways to respond to people who don't buy on the first call.

We'd look at their application form from when they booked a call - the form where they had to answer things like, "What is your big dream?" and "What currently holds you back?"

I'd review their responses and take note of words they used and how they used them:

• Were they using audio, visual, kinesthetic words?
• Were their answers filled with emotion, analytical, or action words?
• Where did their focus go? Critical? Carefree? Egotistical? Metaphysical? Scientific? Fearful?
• What did they seem to care about most and least?
• What were they struggling with and why?

After that I'd form a profile, then craft a custom email to invite them back to a call by applying their own learning styles and adapting the message to their perspective of the world.

I always apply some personality profiling to copywriting, but I'd say only Tier 1 gurus would be caught doing it the way Cambridge Analytica has been described.
 

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Only worked with a few who really put the effort in with data and psychographics. Most coaches wouldn't know the meaning of the words.

The only one's digging into those were upper tier. With one coach we used both with personality profiling to create new ways to respond to people who don't buy on the first call.

We'd look at their application form from when they booked a call - the form where they had to answer things like, "What is your big dream?" and "What currently holds you back?"

I'd review their responses and take note of words they used and how they used them:

• Were they using audio, visual, kinesthetic words?
• Were their answers filled with emotion, analytical, or action words?
• Where did their focus go? Critical? Carefree? Egotistical? Metaphysical? Scientific? Fearful?
• What did they seem to care about most and least?
• What were they struggling with and why?

After that I'd form a profile, then craft a custom email to invite them back to a call by applying their own learning styles and adapting the message to their perspective of the world.
Wow. What was the sign up rate of those messages like?
 
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Lex DeVille

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Wow. What was the sign up rate of those messages like?
I don't know the exact numbers, but I know she's hitting over 1 mil a year and wasn't before we worked together. It's the coach I refunded $6k and fired because she didn't want to pay a commission to a copywriter because they're not "directly involved" in sales.

One of the few other companies who used psychographics was a survival guru of sorts. They sold pre-made survival bags on the backend, and they were well over the mil mark also. Had national media exposure, and applied every scare tactic you can imagine.
 
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I don't know the exact numbers, but I know she's hitting over 1 mil a year and wasn't before we worked together. It's the coach I refunded $6k and fired because she didn't want to pay a commission to a copywriter because they're not "directly involved" in sales.

One of the few other companies who used psychographics was a survival guru of sorts. They sold pre-made survival bags on the backend, and they were well over the mil mark also. Had national media exposure, and applied every scare tactic you can imagine.
I read before about a copywriter/marketer who got in on the survival niche solely for how easy they are to sell to.
He killed it (millions) selling prepper kits and end-of-the-world type products.
 
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Lex DeVille

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This is the absolute best thread I've read to date on TFF.

I haven't contributed much because I'm new and well - pretty intimidated by the level of amazing most people here are at.

I just repped EVERYTHING I had (be it small) to @SinisterLex because this thread is (as @MJ DeMarco put it) a masterclass.

A couple points/questions I wanted to bring up...

1. I don't think most gurus are diabolical... I could be wrong, but I believe that most enter into the market with good intentions, and venture down this path as they find ways of marketing that make more money and convert [please correct me if I'm wrong].

I bring this up because I saw a lot of posts about people re-thinking using some of the strategies here or debating whether to sell informational products...

... and I don't think doing so automatically makes you a "guru" or a bro-marketer... or unethical [but I want to hear what you guys think!]

There could be good, valuable products that solve a problem, but only work for a small percentage of people... does that mean gurus are wrong or shouldn't be selling this product to everyone or at a high price?

That leads me to point/question 2...

2. It can be a fine line between having a quality product and getting "seduced to making your marketing the fire."

How do you walk the line and what do you use as litmus tests to stay on this side of things?

For example, Anthony Robbins started with his books and used Fran Tarkengton as a spokes person. His initial products were pretty good, offered tangible tools, and helped a lot of people. I believe (and could be wrong) that he started out with a true desire to help others.

Now, it SEEMS like he's become the "Stereotypical Guru" that this forum generally associates with a negative connotation.

He no doubt uses everything discussed in this thread, and I've met many people who can only give vague, feel-good testimonials as a result of attending his workshops.

But he has to market, and either him or his team are going to use the most persuasive tools at their disposal.

which leads to the last point/question

3. As a result of this forum I've chosen to build my copywriting skills. I've read about 10 books in the last month... including Ca$hvertising.

The authors all generally say the same thing [I'm paraphrasing]:

Selling is persuading, which by definition taps into people's psychology to get through the noise and their filters so they see the value and buy your product.


So to sum it all up... @SinisterLex ... what is your philosophy for using these techniques, building products, and staying on a more ethical path while still making money and charging people for a valuable product?

Obviously one can argue that the market will decide if a product is valuable, but after reading this thread, there could be some debate...

I know the thread is still going, but I just thought I'd throw this out there :)
I'd say most gurus aren't diabolical -- then again, who really ever believes they're wrong?

At Tier 3 and below it's a lot of people looking for a path to fast cash. Same reason so many people recruit for MLMs. A lot of coaches start out with good intentions. Problem is they don't know how to market themselves. They end up posting ads on Craigslist and charging $20 per session. Others don't have any coaching experience at all.

So it's quite nice when a Facebook ad shows up on their wall and they see this coach who seems "just like them" and started in the same place, talking about how she went from broke to $100,000 her first year with just one simple shift. If you're struggling to book a $20 session, six figures sounds nice.

At the Tier 3 level, it's not malicious intent driving gurus. It's mainly hope (and sometimes lies). They see a fast path to the dream, and a way to make easy money while "freeing up their time." This doesn't mean they have malicious intent at all -- it's once they switch from their coaching to selling the marketing system itself (especially when they haven't even successfully applied it) as a path to wealth that they fall into the latter category.

There's nothing wrong with using marketing funnels for the most part.

The line is drawn by the law, unfortunately.

That's why so many people continue to walk it so narrowly.

Beyond that it's drawn by individual ethics, morals, and beliefs.

If you're okay with some of the things gurus do, then you can do them too and probably make money. Will you be a "good" person? Probably not in the eyes of others...but if you don't care what others think, then I guess it doesn't matter as long as it's legal.

I don't look at copywriting or selling as persuading.

The aim of both is not to persuade people to buy. If it is, it's coming from the wrong place. Copywriting is a tool of communication, not persuasion. It's the same with direct sales. The goal is to clearly communicate the value of a given product. That means the product itself should be valuable.

An untested product, or the product of an individual reading a bunch of blogs or books and re-hashing them, or a shit product imported from China at bottom dollar to save a little cash...

In my opinion it is unethical to apply copywriting or sales techniques to persuade people to purchase those items.

But again, it's (usually) not illegal to do so.

That's why hundreds of thousands of people do it every day. But sometimes it's not illegal at the time and becomes illegal later on. Sometimes that comes back to bite people in the a$$. For that reason it's better to start with value and add copywriting and sales once the product proves itself.

This is also the reason I'm primarily a brand copywriter and almost never write direct response sales copy. One is designed to create an experience for the customer and build a relationship. The other is designed to move them as quickly as possible to the sale no matter what.
 

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This is also the reason I'm primarily a brand copywriter and almost never write direct response sales copy. One is designed to create an experience for the customer and build a relationship. The other is designed to move them as quickly as possible to the sale no matter what.
Interesting. I only do direct response. My job is to acquire new prospects and new customers. Ultimately to make sales, generate revenue, and do so profitably.

I find this works best by getting the offer in front of the starving crowd, then getting the feck out of the way so they can buy.


Example paid search funnel:

Search Term:
emergency plumber dublin​

Ad:
Dublin Emergency Plumber​

Landing Page:
Looking for an emergency plumber in Dublin?
  • We're plumbers.
  • We do emergencies.
  • We're in Dublin.
<< Call Now >>​


IMO, it's not landing pages or copy that converts - it's people that convert. Get the right person to the right offer at the right time, and you make sales.

If you're selling get rich quick schemes to the gullible, then you need to get the gullible to your offer. So you need to target the gullible. (Hmmm... I wonder why Facebook works so well with targeting the gullible?)


I know I'm oversimplifying slightly and there's a whole segment of people looking for information, or comparison shopping. These people need to be communicated to differently than those searching with credit card in hand.

I'm not as smart as @SinisterLex when it comes to buying pyschology and using words to create a brand. Hence sticking to finding and selling to the starving crowd.
 
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Lex DeVille

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Interesting. I only do direct response. My job is to acquire new prospects and new customers. Ultimately to make sales, generate more revenue, and do so profitably.

I find this works best by getting the offer in front of the starving crowd, then getting the feck out of the way so they can buy.


Example paid search funnel:

Search Term:
emergency plumber dublin​

Ad:
Dublin Emergency Plumber​

Landing Page:
Looking for an emergency plumber in Dublin?
  • We're plumbers.
  • We do emergencies.
  • We're in Dublin.
<< Call Now >>​


IMO, it's not landing pages or copy that converts - it's people that convert. Get the right person to the right offer at the right time, and you make sales.

If you're selling get rich quick schemes to the gullible, then you need to get the gullible to your offer. So you need to target the gullible. (Hmmm... I wonder why Facebook works so well with targeting the gullible?)
In this situation direct response does make more sense. People buy to solve X problem immediately and don't necessarily care about presentation or the experience. They want the job done right, but it's not like buying Nike who sells identification rather than shoes.

If I tried writing brand copy for a lawn mowing business, it wouldn't do well. People go with who they see first on Google, or in some cases the website they like better. They don't expect a long-term relationship.

If I write direct response for an info product it might do very well, usually by making off-hand promises and guarantees. This is the BRO marketer strategy.

Higher level gurus mix brand and direct response (this is probably closer to what I do also) with an emphasis on direct response. The main difference is gurus sell people on fast money without work.

When I write, it's to sell people a long-term relationship with a brand. I want to build strong bonds and have lifetime customers who see themselves in the product, and the product as a representation of who they think they are or who they want to be.
 

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Lex DeVille

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Meditation can cure MAJOR mental illness
Can you take this to another thread...

You don't need to look at the medical studies because doctors don't know how it works.
Not that I'm against meditation. I actively practice it.

But claims like this are the exact guru b.s. we've been dispelling over the last 14 pages. If it isn't known how something works, then it's speculation at best to say it "can cure mental illness."
 
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This is also the reason I'm primarily a brand copywriter and almost never write direct response sales copy. One is designed to create an experience for the customer and build a relationship. The other is designed to move them as quickly as possible to the sale no matter what.
Hey @SinisterLex, thanks for all the wisdom sharing once again. I was curious, and perhaps others are too, if you would be able to expand a bit on the differences between Brand Copywriting and DR from your perspective.
There is so much mixed thoughts around this as some say brand copy/ads are a waste of time/money or just for the super-long-term since there is no direct way of measuring results. But I very much agree with your view that it creates an experience and builds relationships. How to balance the two types? Or never do DR?

Hence sticking to finding and selling to the starving crowd.
DR is essentially this correct? You create an ad that is put in front of people who are likely to be needing/wanting your offer and likely gets the sale quick(er).

Would love to hear more about these two. Many thanks.
 

GMSI7D

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I don't look at copywriting or selling as persuading.

The aim of both is not to persuade people to buy. If it is, it's coming from the wrong place. Copywriting is a tool of communication, not persuasion. It's the same with direct sales. The goal is to clearly communicate the value of a given product. That means the product itself should be valuable.
but what don't people use logic to see the value of a product ?

why is copywriting forced to use emotions, tricks and so on ?

the book " breakthrough advertising" is a master piece of social engineering

---> harnessing the power of people desire and emotions


this is exactly the same thing that think tanks do in social institue : how to manage the masses because we can't talk to them directly with logic


why can't we just walk before the masses and say :

"you are grown enough to judge things ? aren't you ? why should we use emotions on you ? "



can we be real for a minute or not ?
 
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Lex DeVille

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Hey @SinisterLex, thanks for all the wisdom sharing once again. I was curious, and perhaps others are too, if you would be able to expand a bit on the differences between Brand Copywriting and DR from your perspective.
There is so much mixed thoughts around this as some say brand copy/ads are a waste of time/money or just for the super-long-term since there is no direct way of measuring results. But I very much agree with your view that it creates an experience and builds relationships. How to balance the two types? Or never do DR?


DR is essentially this correct? You create an ad that is put in front of people who are likely to be needing/wanting your offer and likely gets the sale quick(er).

Would love to hear more about these two. Many thanks.
I might do a separate thread on this soon because it gets pretty deep pretty fast. I use some direct response methods in all of my writing. But it doesn't come across that way.

Brand copy is a waste of time for businesses with a limited lifetime. Businesses with short lives need direct response to close sales while they can.

Direct Response
- Primary purpose is to sell right now
- Focus on short paragraphs, simple words, and action language
- Focus on solving X problem as fast as possible
- Focus on how great life will be afterward
- Hint at or directly state promises and guarantees
- Everything is focused on pain points and 1 solution to that pain
- Direct response formatting is usually used
- Little expectation of an ongoing relationship (so DR marketers focus heavily on upsells)
- If people return, it's to solve the same problem again, or a new problem

Brand Copywriting
- Primary purpose is to fascinate and create a unique experience
- Primary purpose is to let people feel what they want to feel
- Focus on world building, and deep storytelling
- Focus on the exact right words to create an experience in the mind
- Focus on the fantasy and emotions their audience is searching for
- Focus on "this is us" and "are you part of that?"
- Focus on building relationships over time and creating connections
- People buy because they get value from the brand (and hopefully the product)
- People return again and again for more of the experience they already enjoyed

Brand copy applies direct response methods, but not in a direct response style. Fantasy emotions are emphasized over pain emotions. Creative design is emphasized over white space and conversion optimization. Creativity in general is emphasized over persuasion.

In ads a brand needs to have an emphasis on direct response. But they still need to use the right words to form the picture of their brand. So I guess you could see it like a balance scale. Depending on where and what you're writing copy for, brand copy involves tipping the scale either more toward fantasy or more toward action to serve its purpose.
 
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Can you take this to another thread...
Not that I'm against meditation. I actively practice it.

But claims like this are the exact guru b.s. we've been dispelling over the last 14 pages. If it isn't known how something works, then it's speculation at best to say it "can cure mental illness."
I'll take it elsewhere. Thank you for helping me to see something in myself.
 

GMSI7D

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I'll take it elsewhere. Thank you for helping me to see something in myself.

yes because like 95 % of people , what interest you is .... YOU

that's why gurus are owning you guys

their main weapon of power is yourself, self appeal

people who can't be manipulated are people beyond themselves pursuing a vision


most people here are saying that :

" ok i don't care about that bunch of guys talking copywriting things. i care about me , what could i get here ? "

this is human nature


but this is also your main weakness because gurus know this and they will use it against you



.



 
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Lex DeVille

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but what don't people use logic to see the value of a product ?

why is copywriting forced to use emotions, tricks and so on ?

the book " breakthrough advertising" is a master piece of social engineering

---> harnessing the power of people desire and emotions


this is exactly the same thing that think tanks do in social institue : how to manage the masses because we can't talk to them directly with logic


why can't we just walk before the masses and say :

"you are grown enough to judge things ? aren't you ? why should we use emotions on you ? "



can we be real for a minute or not ?
Humans are emotional by nature. I didn't say don't use emotion in copywriting. People buy with emotions and justify with logic.

I'm saying persuasion isn't the purpose of copywriting. It's a byproduct. The purpose of copywriting and sales is to communicate value in ways people are receptive to. Once they find value in a product, they persuade themselves to buy.

If the product turns out to be shit, they won't buy again, even if loads of persuasive tactics are used.

It's not really about harnessing the power of desires and emotions. If that's what you believe, you may have read Mein Kampf one too many times.

Some people use it that way...

Most who try, fail.

Those who believe in power at the expense of others are called parasites. The world ends up removing them because they add little value for everyone else.

but this is also your main weakness because gurus know this and they will use it against you
This is also your main weakness because gurus sold you every book they have and you took the bait. Now your posts reflect things you've read, but haven't applied. It's the same.

I'm pointing this out because you keep indirectly calling people stupid and lumping forum members in with that group. People aren't receptive to your words which is why it doesn't matter how many times you say them, or how much proof or books you mention.

They don't care.

It's not that they don't care about the subject. Some do, and some have even connected with your words. Mainly the problem is you want to persuade people without communicating value clearly so they'll listen.

Copywriting works the same.
 
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Humans are emotional by nature. I didn't say don't use emotion in copywriting. People buy with emotions and justify with logic.
This is one of the most important truths about human nature. The crazy thing is that you have people that aren't aware of it, and then you have people that are aware of it, but think "every human but me. I'm logical".

It's one of those truths that you have to accept so deep down that you can stop the rationalization hamster and say to yourself "All humans includes me"
 

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Brad S

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Only worked with a few who really put the effort in with data and psychographics. Most coaches wouldn't know the meaning of the words.

The only one's digging into those were upper tier. With one coach we used both with personality profiling to create new ways to respond to people who don't buy on the first call.

We'd look at their application form from when they booked a call - the form where they had to answer things like, "What is your big dream?" and "What currently holds you back?"

I'd review their responses and take note of words they used and how they used them:

• Were they using audio, visual, kinesthetic words?
• Were their answers filled with emotion, analytical, or action words?
• Where did their focus go? Critical? Carefree? Egotistical? Metaphysical? Scientific? Fearful?
• What did they seem to care about most and least?
• What were they struggling with and why?

After that I'd form a profile, then craft a custom email to invite them back to a call by applying their own learning styles and adapting the message to their perspective of the world.

I always apply some personality profiling to copywriting, but I'd say only Tier 1 gurus would be caught doing it the way Cambridge Analytica has been described.
How did you end up working with "gurus"?

How do you negotiate the terms with them as far as money etc.?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

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Lex DeVille

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How did you end up working with "gurus"?

How do you negotiate the terms with them as far as money etc.?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I started through Upwork. I applied some of the techniques to grow my freelance account fast. At the end of the first month my rates went from $5/hr to $100/hr. That's when I met the first guru -- a coach who was willing to pay those rates.

After that I searched for other coach jobs (clearly they had money) and found a second one who's job post was lost under a month's worth of other posts. He hadn't hired any freelancers, so I reached out and offered my services at double his budget. He accepted.

Now I had all the social proof and credibility needed to land pretty much any other coach. Anytime I applied to a coach gig, I'd tell a story about one of the other coaches and relate it to their job post. Or I'd just write something like:

"You're a coach who needs copywriting, and I'm a copywriter who writes for coaches, so maybe we're a match?"

Pretty much works the same as doubling your freelance rates with every new 5-star rating. Each one builds upon the last adding more and more proof. More proof = more credible.

For pricing I wasn't very experienced at the time.

At first I billed by the hour. The problem was, there were only so many hours in a day. That limited my income. So I switched and started billing retainers between $1000 and $3000 per month depending on the amount of writing.

That model worked well, but I screwed up the amount of writing offered. I ended up with several retainer clients who sucked, so I fired them so I could focus on the one with the most potential. I closed her on a $1,000 retainer originally, and upgraded to $2,000 per month after the first month.

But she had MASSIVE content needs, and drained me with delivery. As her business grew, we started doing weekly team calls. I was brought in to engage her Facebook audience, and take a more active role. It was then she gave me access to the Tier I gurus and their training in addition to her programs.

That's when my eyes were really opened to the rabbit hole...

After that I became more and more involved in her system. I was promoted as her "Copywriting Coach." Started coaching her students, reviewing webinars, profiling potential customers, and reviewing copy for other high-ticket clients like the founder of ZenDesk. I worked with $1,000,000 funnel marketers to craft her email funnels, and engaged with coaches at all levels every day all day long.

During all of this I didn't ask for any extra pay.

I was waiting for the right time. The moment when she depended on me too much not to see my value. Then I thought we could move to a commission model. She paid her salespeople 10%, and I had way more client contact than they did. Even just a 5% commission would've been around $50k per year.

When she posted my picture and info on her sales page, and access to my copywriting training became a "Bonus" for spending $15,000+ on her program......that's when the time was right to talk commissions. When you start selling access to me...that means my value is high enough for a cut.

So I waited for the New Year and asked for 20%.

Her response was to offer a pay increase. I offered a concession of a lower %. Unfortunately, she didn't feel a copywriter should be paid a commission because I wasn't on the phone making sales. It's funny because her sales people weren't promoted on the sales page at all.

Anyway...

After several rounds of back and forth negotiations, I attempted an old school tactic. Told her if she wasn't on board with paying me a commission then she didn't see my value and she could keep her money. I'd walk...

She didn't budge, and I refunded $6,000 to prove I was serious, thinking she'd be f*cked without a good copywriter putting out the amount of content I was.

Unfortunately, that didn't go according to plan.

She blocked me, and removed me from her circles, but by then it was too late. I'd seen enough, grown a large enough network, and worked with enough coaches and gurus to always get work with others (although I do think I'm blacklisted in some circles who know her).

But to answer your question about negotiating price...

I don't have a set way. I try different things. Sometimes it's $3,000 email funnel. Sometimes it's $300 per page. Sometimes it's something else. I haven't bothered with or wanted a commission structure since. Not planning to freelance after this year.
 

Brad S

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Jan 23, 2014
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I started through Upwork. I applied some of the techniques to grow my freelance account fast. At the end of the first month my rates went from $5/hr to $100/hr. That's when I met the first guru -- a coach who was willing to pay those rates.

After that I searched for other coach jobs (clearly they had money) and found a second one who's job post was lost under a month's worth of other posts. He hadn't hired any freelancers, so I reached out and offered my services at double his budget. He accepted.

Now I had all the social proof and credibility needed to land pretty much any other coach. Anytime I applied to a coach gig, I'd tell a story about one of the other coaches and relate it to their job post. Or I'd just write something like:

"You're a coach who needs copywriting, and I'm a copywriter who writes for coaches, so maybe we're a match?"

Pretty much works the same as doubling your freelance rates with every new 5-star rating. Each one builds upon the last adding more and more proof. More proof = more credible.

For pricing I wasn't very experienced at the time.

At first I billed by the hour. The problem was, there were only so many hours in a day. That limited my income. So I switched and started billing retainers between $1000 and $3000 per month depending on the amount of writing.

That model worked well, but I screwed up the amount of writing offered. I ended up with several retainer clients who sucked, so I fired them so I could focus on the one with the most potential. I closed her on a $1,000 retainer originally, and upgraded to $2,000 per month after the first month.

But she had MASSIVE content needs, and drained me with delivery. As her business grew, we started doing weekly team calls. I was brought in to engage her Facebook audience, and take a more active role. It was then she gave me access to the Tier I gurus and their training in addition to her programs.

That's when my eyes were really opened to the rabbit hole...

After that I became more and more involved in her system. I was promoted as her "Copywriting Coach." Started coaching her students, reviewing webinars, profiling potential customers, and reviewing copy for other high-ticket clients like the founder of ZenDesk. I worked with $1,000,000 funnel marketers to craft her email funnels, and engaged with coaches at all levels every day all day long.

During all of this I didn't ask for any extra pay.

I was waiting for the right time. The moment when she depended on me too much not to see my value. Then I thought we could move to a commission model. She paid her salespeople 10%, and I had way more client contact than they did. Even just a 5% commission would've been around $50k per year.

When she posted my picture and info on her sales page, and access to my copywriting training became a "Bonus" for spending $15,000+ on her program......that's when the time was right to talk commissions. When you start selling access to me...that means my value is high enough for a cut.

So I waited for the New Year and asked for 20%.

Her response was to offer a pay increase. I offered a concession of a lower %. Unfortunately, she didn't feel a copywriter should be paid a commission because I wasn't on the phone making sales. It's funny because her sales people weren't promoted on the sales page at all.

Anyway...

After several rounds of back and forth negotiations, I attempted an old school tactic. Told her if she wasn't on board with paying me a commission then she didn't see my value and she could keep her money. I'd walk...

She didn't budge, and I refunded $6,000 to prove I was serious, thinking she'd be f*cked without a good copywriter putting out the amount of content I was.

Unfortunately, that didn't go according to plan.

She blocked me, and removed me from her circles, but by then it was too late. I'd seen enough, grown a large enough network, and worked with enough coaches and gurus to always get work with others (although I do think I'm blacklisted in some circles who know her).

But to answer your question about negotiating price...

I don't have a set way. I try different things. Sometimes it's $3,000 email funnel. Sometimes it's $300 per page. Sometimes it's something else. I haven't bothered with or wanted a commission structure since. Not planning to freelance after this year.
I wasn't going to even bother posting this.

New Money

I don't want to encourage people to waste their time watching this junk.

Considering if you're asking the question:

"Is this going to directly contribute to me making money?"

The answer would almost certainly be NO.

But just in case...

If you happen to be an Alien from another planet...

Or...

A human who hasn't read anything in this thread...

Then maybe this would give you some perverse understanding into human nature.

Anyway this is from that super expensive Tony Robbins "New Money Conmen" oh I mean "Masters" DVD that came out a while back.

Someone nicely compiled it into one YouTube channel.

And no it definitely wasn't me.

I haven't watched barely any of it as that would probably be a waste of my time.

Not to say there isn't much to learn from understanding what's happening in these videos..

But there is a female in it, who I'm wondering if this is the magical "guru" in your last story @SinisterLex?

If you don't want to answer that publicly I understand.

As Lil Wayne says:

"And I would say these hoes names
But then I would be snitching
And these haters try to knock me
But they can't knock me off the hinges"

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

jcvlds

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GatsbyMag

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Watched it right after I saw this post - I've been meaning to for a while. It was disappointing. Just one long infomercial for Tony Robbins, but kinda cool to get in there and see what goes on in those $5k seminars which I'll never attend. Jury's still out for me... He seems to help a lot of people, which I suppose is the most important thing, but I'd like to see follow ups down the road. Getting all jazzed up in a seminar with Tony Robbins in front of you and the music blaring over the loudspeakers is one thing, but when you fly back home and the hype wears off, what then? If you just dropped five grand for the thing you'd for sure be much more inclined to convince yourself that it was worth it, also.

It would've been great to offer some actual critiques of his practices and invite some skeptics to interview, but since Robbins partly funded it that wasn't gonna fly. Where do you even put a guy like this? Someone who coaches Tier 1 gurus, and has made $480 million doing so?
Tony is definitely a master persuader. I'm very confident that he could run for presidency of the United States and be one of the most popular candidates, the only reasons he'd possibly lose is because 1. he's inexperienced and 2. Skeptics would dig into his history and proclaim him a fraud/conman which would massively damage his reputation.

At the end of the day, Tony is a fastlaner and he gives people what they want. In return he gets what he wants. The same can be said of Tai Lopez and other "scammers". Even if it's only motivation that lasts an hour. Some people spend big bucks watching men kick and throw a ball around and others spend big bucks trying to change their lives or to feel an ounce of hope and inspiration. In the eyes of a businessman, I'm not sure if you can call one crowd foolish and the other not, one can only see the opportunity.

As MJ has stated, the market decides what's valuable, irrespective of what anybody outside of or on this forum thinks.
 

mguerra

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Tony is definitely a master persuader. I'm very confident that he could run for presidency of the United States and be one of the most popular candidates, the only reasons he'd possibly lose is because 1. he's inexperienced and 2. Skeptics would dig into his history and proclaim him a fraud/conman which would massively damage his reputation.

At the end of the day, Tony is a fastlaner and he gives people what they want. In return he gets what he wants. The same can be said of Tai Lopez and other "scammers". Even if it's only motivation that lasts an hour. Some people spend big bucks watching men kick and throw a ball around and others spend big bucks trying to change their lives or to feel an ounce of hope and inspiration. In the eyes of a businessman, I'm not sure if you can call one crowd foolish and the other not, one can only see the opportunity.

As MJ has stated, the market decides what's valuable, irrespective of what anybody outside of or on this forum thinks.
You are very accurate, my friend. Thanks for that.
 

keith4444

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@SinisterLex thank you for starting this thread, it has taken me a while to get through it all but it was well worth it!
Just a tiny tip from me but if anyone see's an ad on FB and wants to know why they are being shown that ad you can click in the top right of the add and click "why am i seeing this?", FB will show you (to some degree) why you are being shown that add:
facebook-ad-why-am-i-seeing-this.jpg
 

MJ DeMarco

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As MJ has stated, the market decides what's valuable
Yes, but ultimately that comes down to how the product/service is marketed.

Perceived value is the main driver in the marketplace.

A scammer can push the perceived value metric but deliver little actual value.

If the scammer sells promissory notes which advertise a guaranteed 14% interest per MONTH, undoubtedly he will sell and make millions because of perceived value -- but when it comes time to deliver -- actual value -- he will fail to deliver.

At such point, the scammer can boast about his wild success because "I made $25M last year."

Uh, no you didn't. You sold perceived value, not actual value.
 

jcvlds

JC
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Mexico > Texas > Florida
Yes, but ultimately that comes down to how the product/service is marketed.

Perceived value is the main driver in the marketplace.

A scammer can push the perceived value metric but deliver little actual value.

If the scammer sells promissory notes which advertise a guaranteed 14% interest per MONTH, undoubtedly he will sell and make millions because of perceived value -- but when it comes time to deliver -- actual value -- he will fail to deliver.

At such point, the scammer can boast about his wild success because "I made $25M last year."

Uh, no you didn't. You sold perceived value, not actual value.
Heh. Just by reading your post (and you’re not even promoting it) makes it sound appealing and like “Hey, I just want to make money, I don’t care how!”, even if past borderline unethical.

Imagine when someone who hasn’t learned about actually delivering value for the long term without using outrageous claims, sees a guru actually marketing and promoting what you posted... everyone will flock to it.

I was/am into fitness before I began learning about entrepreneurship and I compare it exactly to how many people want the fast way to get ripped no matter what they have to do and don’t want for it to take 1-2 years. The journey and process is not necessarily hard but very demanding and 100% commitment is a must. People want the easy and fast way, although, it hardly ever leads to true and lasting results.
Entrepreneurship is the same way.. stay committed, be consistent and go through the process.. have a business plan and stick to it (equivalent of having your calorie, macros, and lift plan in fitness). You will take longer but you will have real and lasting results, and you will likely end up enjoying the process it just becomes your lifestyle.


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