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Lex DeVille's: Guru Cults Exposed: The Tactics "Experts" Use To Pull You In & Suck You Dry

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The word "identity" might be better than the word "cult".

Saying that people here identify with the entrepreneurial mindset, that being unscripted is part of how they (we) understand them (our) selves, doesn't have the downsides of calling it a cult, though it still gets the same point across: this is a community which shares in certain values and self-perceptions.
 
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Lex DeVille

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Reposted from the latest forum guru thread:


I don't know what defines a guru to you, but if someone were to post an AMA thread, then would they look like a guru, smell like a guru or act like a guru?

I'm guessing you would say yes.

If you knew me, then you would never class me as a BS guru. But I guess all of the gurus say that right?

First, I didn't "class" you as a guru. I mocked you because other people classed you as a guru. But now you have my attention, and even though the burden of proof is not on me to prove you are a guru, now I just want to.

You know why you don't know what defines a guru to me? Because you didn't get to know me...

• Did you post an introduction to get to know the forum?
• Have you posted a high value AMA explaining your exact process?

Now let's break down your post so others can see just now "not a guru" you are...


Before adding any value, you post a link off site to your funnel.

Anyone who has a website knows how important it is to grow your email list.

You open with a generalization designed to lump everyone into a category and gain agreement.

Email marketing is one of the easiest ways to get your message read by tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of people who want to buy the products and services you offer.

Here you attempt to use big numbers indirectly for credibility, but fail because they're posted as words instead of numeric values.

Best of all, it's 100% free advertising and in 2018, the average business will get 40X ROI for every penny spent acquiring their list (in other words: spend $1 and you make $40).

Here you make a statement that can't be proven untrue, and even if people in your funnel don't get those results, you're still not to blame because they must have done something wrong. -- a cult tactic so shame and guilt can be applied at a later time.

It's for this reason that you see sooo many posts about how to grow your list and why there are so many tools and apps available to help you achieve this goal.

Here you attempt to imply that your post is not the same as all of those other posts. Yours is somehow different -- which also implies there must be some secret or mystery to your method that sets it apart.

However, popups, sticky bars or whatever else you happen to be using is only one small part of what you need to succeed.

Here you imply that there is something more that we need beyond those things to succeed -- a type of open loop that begs the question, "what could it be?"

In this video, you'll discover how to rapidly grow your email list with an opt-in landing page that has a 60% - 80% conversion rate.

Here you make a vague statement about what's possible, in other words future pacing how great life will be after watching your video (which leads directly into your funnel).

It's so effective, that I used it to help one of my clients to get 394 new email subscribers (including key decision makers from international brands) in less than 6-days... from free traffic. :smile2:

Here you attempt to establish more credibility by vaguely mentioning social proof. I'm surprised you didn't name drop your clients to make it more impactful. Also you mention "big" numbers again in a very short time period indicating how easy it is to do this, and free.

One of the easiest ways to make money with a website is to master opt in landing page conversion rate optimization and knowing how to build an email list.

Over the past 12 years, I've helped hundreds of clients from around the world to grow their business online including Noah Kagan, Neil Patel, Ezra Firestone and Sujan Patel.

Instead of sharing anything of value, you just make a repost talking about your "hundreds" of clients -- another big number before name dropping a bunch of well-known marketers.

I led the growth team at Roadtrippers where I help them to achieve 3-million active users and at FOMO we got a conservative evaluation of $2.6 million in less than 6 months.

More big numbers for credibility that no one is likely to question.

When people hear about my experience, they LOVE asking how to to make money with a website:

“Hey Chris, tell me how to get more Shopify sales”
“Dude, what's the fastest way to get more clients?”
“Okay, answer this real quick: fastest way to get more customers?”
"I really need your help. What's the fastest way to get more sales online?"

Here you use a bunch of probably fake questions that nobody has ever asked you, and certainly nobody from this forum asked because nobody knows you here.

The answer is actually very simple. All you need is email subscribers.

I'm sure it is...but no, all you need is NOT email subs to make money. Sorry, there's real people behind the screen.

Today, I'm sharing my insights in this small business guide to opt in landing page conversion rate optimization.

In this video you’ll learn step-by-step how to quickly build an email list from scratch with a lead gen landing page that has a 60% - 80% opt in conversion rate.

As if we're all so stupid we wouldn't realize this is your lead magnet...

I don't know what defines a guru to you, but if someone were to post an AMA thread, then would they look like a guru, smell like a guru or act like a guru?

I'm guessing you would say yes.

If you knew me, then you would never class me as a BS guru. But I guess all of the gurus say that right?

Back to this...instead of accepting that your post reads exactly like a direct response marketing guru's post and using that opportunity to make adjustments, introduce yourself to the forum, and post an actual AMA so people can decide if you're valuable (or not)...you go straight to defensive tactics (what all gurus do) and launch a personal campaign against the people who say you're a guru.

If someone posted a thread saying "How do I get more email subscribers?" and someone were to share their experience and expertise in order to help the poster, then would the person be classed as a guru?

You didn't do that. You posted a gateway into a marketing funnel in a way that reads like a marketing funnel and put the burden of proof on us to watch your video. If you knew anything about value creation, converting people, or engaging your audience, you wouldn't have approached our forum this way at all.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I literally had no idea that an automation was running for that.

You don't even know how your own funnel operates, but you're teaching others...

Conclusion?

You are a guru.
(just not a very good one)


A Tier 3 guru who doesn't know anything about value creation. You've spent time reading up on all the big names like Neil Patel and following exactly what they say and believing that that's how you should talk to other people to get them to respond.

Funny thing is, Patel and Halpern are Tier 1 gurus, and they talk that way to sell to Tier 3 gurus like you.

If you want to know more about Tier 3 gurus, you can read my 4th GOLD thread here.

That's called an open loop by the way. Also notice how I added relevant credibility.

I'm sure they taught you that though...

No more responses from me though. The forum saw through your post before I even got tagged. Now it's up to them to decide. Personally, I decided not to watch your video because writing this post already wasted enough time.
 

Lex DeVille

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THE LINK BETWEEN DANGEROUS CULT
RECRUITMENT & MODERN GURU TACTICS


pexels-photo-949557.jpeg
Modern guru marketing is a clone of classic cult recruitment.

Though new outreach tools (like social media bots) exist, and traditional entry points vary (seminars vs webinars etc.) the psychological tactics, and general approach is nearly identical.

By the way, the process is also virtually identical for MLM recruitment.

Here's how it goes:



STAGE 1 - TARGET THE MIDDLE, NOT THE BOTTOM

When the light turns green, you drive. You don't look left because you have a green light. You have the right of way. Therefore, why worry about that '98 Dodge Dakota carrying that late-for-work driver who hit the gas instead of the breaks to catch the light?

What I'm saying is, your guard is down. And because it's down, you're vulnerable. So you don't wait that extra second to avoid becoming a breaking news story for channel 5.

Everybody thinks they'd never fall prey to a dangerous cult.

That's exactly why they do.


You believe only psychos or the mentally unstable would join a dangerous cult. But why would a cult want mentally unstable members? How many psychos do you know who are doing big things in life? Not many. It's hard enough with your head on straight.

So cults target the middle, not the bottom.

They aim for the vulnerable. Intelligent individuals. People with a degree. People without a degree. People who think outside of the box. People who conform. People who don't conform. People with money or skills. People others follow. People who all believe they'd never get sucked up into a [cult, guru funnel, MLM]. These are the easiest people to convince to join a cult.

The cult gets to know these people extremely well [target marketing].

Then it puts its feelers out.

Traditional cults recruit through direct contact just like MLMs do. An individual finds others and invites them to [read this book, join this seminar, watch this video, take this course] after all, it's free!

Guru marketing systems use Facebook or other paid ads to get in front of you. They use SEO targeted blog posts that hint at solutions to pains you search for. They form Facebook groups or get you to sign up for email lists based on specific criteria designed to weed out psychos, and pull in vulnerable, valuable, potential contributors.

Then they invite you to their free [webinar, ebook, blog post, video training, masterclass].





STAGE 2 - CONTROL WHAT THEY KNOW (AND WHEN AND WHERE THEY GO)

There's no harm attending a free [insert whatever] or so you think.

You are wrong.


Cults capitalize on what Robert Cialdini defines as a privileged moment -- a moment when they have your undivided attention. During the seminar, the information flow is FROM the speaker TO you.

This is not an open discussion
.

They control the information you receive.

Why?

Because by controlling information, they can influence how you think, feel, and even how you behave. This is a process of mind control.

Not only do they control the flow of information, they control WHAT information is shared. That means they set the context and frame for whatever is being discussed. By doing this, they can say exactly what you need to hear and avoid probing questions that might reveal red flag truths.

If you're on a webinar, you'll be asked to put away cell phones, and close out of other browsers. You'll be asked to make sure you are free from all outside distractions. Whether it's a cult or guru marketing, both aim to take advantage of this privileged moment when they have your focused attention.

For those who don't know, focused attention is how you induce trance.

This probably happens to you every time you buy groceries with a credit card. You put the card in the slot and wait to punch in your PIN. Your attention is focused on the the machine. If a sinister cashier (not saying I've tried this, just sayin' ..........) interrupts your focus, you will go into a trance.

If said cashier then suggests how delicious a conveniently placed dark chocolate bar might taste with that conveniently placed creamy peanut butter over there...there's a good chance you'd imagine how tasty it would be, right before you go ahead and add both to your bill.

Cults purposely use seminars because it's easy to eliminate outside distractions. Plus they control your behavior by telling you to hold bathroom breaks and questions until the end (by which time you've probably forgotten about both). After that, the speaker gets to work. He uses trance induction techniques ranging from open loops and vague language to long, boring speeches with confusing stories and talk of transformation.

On a webinar you eliminate distractions on your own. You probably wear headphones. You might take notes. While you write, the guru talks and talks and talks and says exactly what you want to hear. They never reveal the goods, but they give you just enough to keep you wanting more. The entire process takes about an hour. That's an hour of filling you with every kind of psychological manipulation tactic in their tool box.

In the most advanced cult and guru funnels, EVERYTHING is carefully considered and controlled.

• Font size and positioning
• Webinar background images and their intended effect based on the words being spoken
• Copywriting
• Slide presentation order
• Vocal speed, pitch, and tonality
• Body language (if the guru is visible)

Psychological Triggers
• How to present credibility in the most effective way

Liking, scarcity, reciprocation & concessions, consistency, social proof
Pre-suasion techniques
Neuro-linguistic programming and hypnotherapy
• Emotional highs and lows

During this free event, something strange happens. You don't know why or how, but eventually you start to feel:

1) Like the guru is making some kind of sense (he must be because other people seem to agree)

2) Like you are someone leading a life of lies and there's certain changes (read "shifts") you need to make.

The combined group-think social techniques and guilt and/or shame tactics are enough to move you forward to stage 3 of your recruitment.





STAGE 3 - INVITE 'EM TO THE AFTER PARTY, IT'S FREE!

By the end of the free event, you WILL be invited to go deeper...

Cults often invite members to some kind of weekend or week long party or advanced seminar. Gurus and MLMs invite you to speak with them privately to "find out if they can help you."

Both seek to isolate you from other people who haven't just spent the last hour or 10 in a controlled trance, for obvious reasons...because those people would tell you to...

...GET THE F*CK OUT!!!!!!


But when you reach this point, you've already pre-qualified yourself as a cult member, and you've invested quite a bit of your time. Plus there's always that chance these guys "are the real deal."

So you again you think, what can it hurt?

Dangerous cults will say anything to get you away from other people and alone with them. Gurus will IMPLY anything to get you alone with them. If you go forward after that, there's a VERY STRONG CHANCE you will become a cult member regardless of how aware you may be.

Once you're alone, (or on the phone for a discovery call) they move in for the kill...ahem...sale.

We talked about that previously, so let's continue...





STEP 4 - ONCE YOU GOT 'EM...KEEP 'EM

If you go away for the weekend with a cult, you probably won't come back anytime soon (maybe ever). While you're away, you're still in the honeymoon phase. Forgot to mention that earlier...

Until you're officially a cult member, and even for a short period afterward, you'll be praised and showered with love by other members who want you to join. They'll talk about how great their life is and how freeing it is. They'll continuously tell you all the things you want to hear.

Beach Body "personal trainers" on Instagram do this all day long. They talk about what "great things" becoming a Beach Body Coach has done for them. They focus on their fitness, and on how tasty Shakeology is. They imply they travel a lot and lead extraordinary lives (think Tai Lopez tactics). Then they talk about all the people in the "6 Figure Club" -- and even though they aren't there yet, they're on their way!

Beach Body is an MLM...

It operates like a cult, and coaches are constantly recruiting all day every day.

#BEACEO
#OWNYOUROWNBUSINESS
#WORKFROMHOME

Cults use praise to pump you up and motivate you, despite how tired you are from everything you've been through up to this point. It's not unlike how car dealerships keep you on the lot as long as possible to wear you down for an easy sell. Once you're alone with a cult, the entire world focuses on keeping you there. At first through praise, then through guilt, shame and ultimatums (we'll talk about that in a minute).

Gurus invite you into their inner circle, inner Facebook group, "Triple Platinum Alliance" or whatever. There you meat other group members who praise you for making the decision to join, and welcome you to the inside. Once you're in, you get to relax a little despite the $10,000 you just put on credit. At least you're around other people who did the same, and it seems things worked out for them! Whew...you might be okay after all...

(by the way I meant to use "meat" instead of "meet" in that last paragraph because you are "fresh meat" once you step inside)

As fresh meat you have to learn the ropes. Cults don't want to scare you off so they wrap praise guilt and shame together in a nice little package until you learn the "right" way.

If you do something that doesn't fit cult norms, they'll say or do things that make you feel shameful, while playing it off as a little thing. For instance, if you wear your shoes in the house, another member might giggle and say, "What are you stupid? We don't wear shoes inside because it represents the repression of our natural affinities by capitalist pigs over the last 10,000 years.

Since you're still a new member, you're unenlightened, therefore you don't understand what the f*ck they just said, and can't possibly interpret it. And it doesn't make you think they're nuts, it makes you feel like you're too stupid and unenlightened to know what they mean at this point, so you just accept it while feeling shamed.

In Guru cults the same thing happens. Current members will guide you and if you step out of line, they'll chastise you. They'll make you feel stupid or unenlightened in much the same way. At the same time, they're teaching you how to behave the right way....their way.

In dangerous cults it gets much worse later on. The longer you're with the cult, the harsher the guilt and shaming can be. You'll be expected to do things, for instance recruiting, and if you fail or choose not to help, you'll be made to feel like a terrible person until you give in.

If at any time you consider leaving the cult, you'll also be made aware that if you leave, you can NEVER return. In spiritual cults this indicates you can NEVER be one of "God's children" or whatever deity they worship. It also indicates you will suffer eternal damnation for your choice to leave. This creates an impossible dilemma!

Since the cult obviously has your best interests at heart...they must go to any lengths to stop you from leaving, because that's how they save you. This can be spun in many other ways, but it always comes down to an ultimatum. If you leave, you're cast out for good. As a "brother" or "sister" of theirs, the other members cannot allow that to happen.

Guru cults sometimes use a similar tactic in which if you leave the group, or ask for a refund, you may NEVER be invited back or allowed to join again. You may NEVER discover the secret to millions. You may NEVER achieve success because you need them. So you think long and hard before you leave.





STEP 6 - IDENTITY CHANGE COMPLETE -- WE ARE NEGAN!

From start to finish, everything up to this point has involved an identity change process.

In the beginning you were your own person. Curious. Naive maybe. Vulnerable. You just wanted to solve some problem you had. But over the course of a day or a week or maybe even years, the person you were was lost. At some point it was replaced by a new identity.

The military uses an incredibly similar process. It goes like this:

• Unfreeze
• Change
• Refreeze

1) UNFREEZE
Before you adapt a new identity, you first must release the old one. Thus, the guru's 5-shifts webinar and all of their marketing materials constantly promote the shifts you must make before you get what you want.

This is where mind control techniques come into play.

Remember earlier I said if you control information flow, you control how a person thinks, feels, and behaves. And in my last post I said if you control any one of those 3, you can influence the other 2. Now, here's a secret...if you control all of 3, you can unfreeze a person's identity.

So the military, and also cults, start by controlling your environment. In doing so, they control the information flow. You show up at basic training or at the cult center. Then they push you physically (pushups, running, flutter kicks or other labor tasks). You're always tired, so you're always just trying to make it a little further.

Your entire day is controlled. You have no time to yourself. You're yelled at. Shamed. Guilted. Eventually, you break down.

The U.S. Army (when I went through) called this "Red" phase. There's also a "White" and a "Blue" phase, which align with the "change" and "refreeze" parts of this process.

Gurus do this by getting you to put yourself in their webinar. From there they control the information flow. They also control your behavior by only guiding you down their funnel path. They also control the context and frame and therefore control how and what you think. In doing that they can also manipulate your feelings and emotions.

All of this leads to you unfreezing the person you are, in order to be open to becoming the person you'd like to be.


2) CHANGE

Now you've lost your identity. You are not who you were before. You don't know who you are yet, but you're not the old person. Life is not the same. Every second of your day is controlled. Everything is different and there's no turning back.

Your only choice is forward.


Here the military sends you through endless classes (cults send you through seminars, and gurus put you through their course). Some are outside where you learn to shoot, move and kill. Others are inside, where you watch boring a$$ powerpoints or videos or listen to instructors drone on in your half-awake, more asleep state.

(Gurus accomplish this through goal setting and other homework activities and instructing meditation that takes up your time.)

So now you're exhausted mentally and physically. You've been in a constant trance. Your entire world was flipped upside down, and now you just want to adapt and survive.

Therefore, you begin to accumulate a new way of thinking.

You start to pick up the military's way of doing things. You learn how cult members operate. You stop doing things that lead to negative outcomes and start adapting behaviors that get you treated well. During all of this, you are adapting a new way of life, their way.

What I'm saying is...who you are begins to change.



3) REFREEZE
In the final stage you receive your new identity. In the Army, this is a glorious ceremony in which you're awarded your new identity in front of a large spectator audience. You are no longer the pathetic, weak brokeass fool you were before. Today, you're a United States Soldier.

With a handshake, and a salute from a guy you barely know...your identity transformation is complete.

NOTE: None of this is to claim that military is a dangerous cult. Just stating parallels.

Cults often give people new names to complete their identity shift.

Gurus give their members fancy titles.

In any case, it doesn't matter what you're called. You are no longer who you were. Instead...

YOU ARE NEGAN!!!

From here on out you are EXTREMELY open to whatever the group, cult, or guru desires.

You've committed too much. Invested too much. Altered your identity. To go against this path would be to turn against yourself. To quit would be to quit yourself. To not invest $30,000 for the super inner platinum millionaire alliance retreat special seminar, would be to fail yourself, the group members, and the leader.

So you just continue forward...because that's all you can do.

And this, my friends, is where we end for today, but you're invited to come party at my shack in the middle of nowhere all next week with me and a small group of friends if you want...

It's free...

;)

 
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Last edited:

Argue

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THE LINK BETWEEN DANGEROUS CULT
RECRUITMENT & MODERN GURU TACTICS


View attachment 18830
Modern guru marketing is a clone of classic cult recruitment.

Though new outreach tools (like social media bots) exist, and traditional entry points vary (seminars vs webinars etc.) the psychological tactics, and general approach is nearly identical.

By the way, the process is also virtually identical for MLM recruitment.

Here's how it goes:



STAGE 1 - TARGET THE MIDDLE, NOT THE BOTTOM

When the light turns green, you drive. You don't look left because you have a green light. You have the right of way. Therefore, why worry about that '98 Dodge Dakota carrying that late-for-work driver who hit the gas instead of the breaks to catch the light?

What I'm saying is, your guard is down. And because it's down, you're vulnerable. So you don't wait that extra second to avoid becoming a breaking news story for channel 5.

Everybody thinks they'd never fall prey to a dangerous cult.

That's exactly why they do.


You believe only psychos or the mentally unstable would join a dangerous cult. But why would a cult want mentally unstable members? How many psychos do you know who are doing big things in life? Not many. It's hard enough with your head on straight.

So cults target the middle, not the bottom.

They aim for the vulnerable. Intelligent individuals. People with a degree. People without a degree. People who think outside of the box. People who conform. People who don't conform. People with money or skills. People others follow. People who all believe they'd never get sucked up into a [cult, guru funnel, MLM]. These are the easiest people to convince to join a cult.

The cult gets to know these people extremely well [target marketing].

Then it puts its feelers out.

Traditional cults recruit through direct contact just like MLMs do. An individual finds others and invites them to [read this book, join this seminar, watch this video, take this course] after all, it's free!

Guru marketing systems use Facebook or other paid ads to get in front of you. They use SEO targeted blog posts that hint at solutions to pains you search for. They form Facebook groups or get you to sign up for email lists based on specific criteria designed to weed out psychos, and pull in vulnerable, valuable, potential contributors.

Then they invite you to their free [webinar, ebook, blog post, video training, masterclass].





STAGE 2 - CONTROL WHAT THEY KNOW (AND WHEN AND WHERE THEY GO)

There's no harm attending a free [insert whatever] or so you think.

You are wrong.


Cults capitalize on what Robert Cialdini defines as a privileged moment -- a moment when they have your undivided attention. During the seminar, the information flow is FROM the speaker TO you.

This is not an open discussion
.

They control the information you receive.

Why?

Because by controlling information, they can influence how you think, feel, and even how you behave. This is a process of mind control.

Not only do they control the flow of information, they control WHAT information is shared. That means they set the context and frame for whatever is being discussed. By doing this, they can say exactly what you need to hear and avoid probing questions that might reveal red flag truths.

If you're on a webinar, you'll be asked to put away cell phones, and close out of other browsers. You'll be asked to make sure you are free from all outside distractions. Whether it's a cult or guru marketing, both aim to take advantage of this privileged moment when they have your focused attention.

For those who don't know, focused attention is how you induce trance.

This probably happens to you every time you buy groceries with a credit card. You put the card in the slot and wait to punch in your PIN. Your attention is focused on the the machine. If a sinister cashier (not saying I've tried this, just sayin' ..........) interrupts your focus, you will go into a trance.

If said cashier then suggests how delicious a conveniently placed dark chocolate bar might taste with that conveniently placed creamy peanut butter over there...there's a good chance you'd imagine how tasty it would be, right before you go ahead and add both to your bill.

Cults purposely use seminars because it's easy to eliminate outside distractions. Plus they control your behavior by telling you to hold bathroom breaks and questions until the end (by which time you've probably forgotten about both). After that, the speaker gets to work. He uses trance induction techniques ranging from open loops and vague language to long, boring speeches with confusing stories and talk of transformation.

On a webinar you eliminate distractions on your own. You probably wear headphones. You might take notes. While you write, the guru talks and talks and talks and says exactly what you want to hear. They never reveal the goods, but they give you just enough to keep you wanting more. The entire process takes about an hour. That's an hour of filling you with every kind of psychological manipulation tactic in their tool box.

In the most advanced cult and guru funnels, EVERYTHING is carefully considered and controlled.

• Font size and positioning
• Webinar background images and their intended effect based on the words being spoken
• Copywriting
• Slide presentation order
• Vocal speed, pitch, and tonality
• Body language (if the guru is visible)

Psychological Triggers
• How to present credibility in the most effective way

Liking, scarcity, reciprocation & concessions, consistency, social proof
Pre-suasion techniques
Neuro-linguistic programming and hypnotherapy
• Emotional highs and lows

During this free event, something strange happens. You don't know why or how, but eventually you start to feel:

1) Like the guru is making some kind of sense (he must be because other people seem to agree)

2) Like you are someone leading a life of lies and there's certain changes (read "shifts") you need to make.

The combined group-think social techniques and guilt and/or shame tactics are enough to move you forward to stage 3 of your recruitment.





STAGE 3 - INVITE 'EM TO THE AFTER PARTY, IT'S FREE!

By the end of the free event, you WILL be invited to go deeper...

Cults often invite members to some kind of weekend or week long party or advanced seminar. Gurus and MLMs invite you to speak with them privately to "find out if they can help you."

Both seek to isolate you from other people who haven't just spent the last hour or 10 in a controlled trance, for obvious reasons...because those people would tell you to...

...GET THE F*CK OUT!!!!!!


But when you reach this point, you've already pre-qualified yourself as a cult member, and you've invested quite a bit of your time. Plus there's always that chance these guys "are the real deal."

So you again you think, what can it hurt?

Dangerous cults will say anything to get you away from other people and alone with them. Gurus will IMPLY anything to get you alone with them. If you go forward after that, there's a VERY STRONG CHANCE you will become a cult member regardless of how aware you may be.

Once you're alone, (or on the phone for a discovery call) they move in for the kill...ahem...sale.

We talked about that previously, so let's continue...





STEP 4 - ONCE YOU GOT 'EM...KEEP 'EM

If you go away for the weekend with a cult, you probably won't come back anytime soon (maybe ever). While you're away, you're still in the honeymoon phase. Forgot to mention that earlier...

Until you're officially a cult member, and even for a short period afterward, you'll be praised and showered with love by other members who want you to join. They'll talk about how great their life is and how freeing it is. They'll continuously tell you all the things you want to hear.

Beach Body "personal trainers" on Instagram do this all day long. They talk about what "great things" becoming a Beach Body Coach has done for them. They focus on their fitness, and on how tasty Shakeology is. They imply they travel a lot and lead extraordinary lives (think Tai Lopez tactics). Then they talk about all the people in the "6 Figure Club" -- and even though they aren't there yet, they're on their way!

Beach Body is an MLM...

It operates like a cult, and coaches are constantly recruiting all day every day.

#BEACEO
#OWNYOUROWNBUSINESS
#WORKFROMHOME

Cults use praise to pump you up and motivate you, despite how tired you are from everything you've been through up to this point. It's not unlike how car dealerships keep you on the lot as long as possible to wear you down for an easy sell. Once you're alone with a cult, the entire world focuses on keeping you there. At first through praise, then through guilt, shame and ultimatums (we'll talk about that in a minute).

Gurus invite you into their inner circle, inner Facebook group, "Triple Platinum Alliance" or whatever. There you meat other group members who praise you for making the decision to join, and welcome you to the inside. Once you're in, you get to relax a little despite the $10,000 you just put on credit. At least you're around other people who did the same, and it seems things worked out for them! Whew...you might be okay after all...

(by the way I meant to use "meat" instead of "meet" in that last paragraph because you are "fresh meat" once you step inside)

As fresh meat you have to learn the ropes. Cults don't want to scare you off so they wrap praise guilt and shame together in a nice little package until you learn the "right" way.

If you do something that doesn't fit cult norms, they'll say or do things that make you feel shameful, while playing it off as a little thing. For instance, if you wear your shoes in the house, another member might giggle and say, "What are you stupid? We don't wear shoes inside because it represents the repression of our natural affinities by capitalist pigs over the last 10,000 years.

Since you're still a new member, you're unenlightened, therefore you don't understand what the f*ck they just said, and can't possibly interpret it. And it doesn't make you think they're nuts, it makes you feel like you're too stupid and unenlightened to know what they mean at this point, so you just accept it while feeling shamed.

In Guru cults the same thing happens. Current members will guide you and if you step out of line, they'll chastise you. They'll make you feel stupid or unenlightened in much the same way. At the same time, they're teaching you how to behave the right way....their way.

In dangerous cults it gets much worse later on. The longer you're with the cult, the harsher the guilt and shaming can be. You'll be expected to do things, for instance recruiting, and if you fail or choose not to help, you'll be made to feel like a terrible person until you give in.

If at any time you consider leaving the cult, you'll also be made aware that if you leave, you can NEVER return. In spiritual cults this indicates you can NEVER be one of "God's children" or whatever deity they worship. It also indicates you will suffer eternal damnation for your choice to leave.

Since the cult obviously has your best interests at heart...they must go to any lengths to stop you from leaving, because that's how they save you. This can be spun in many other ways, but it always comes down to an ultimatum. If you leave, you're cast out for good. As a "brother" or "sister" of theirs, the other members cannot allow that to happen.

Guru cults sometimes use a similar tactic in which if you leave the group, or ask for a refund, you may NEVER be invited back or allowed to join again. You may NEVER discover the secret to millions. You may NEVER achieve success because you need them. So you think long and hard before you leave.





STEP 6 - IDENTITY CHANGE COMPLETE -- WE ARE NEGAN!

From start to finish, everything up to this point has involved an identity change process.

In the beginning you were your own person. Curious. Naive maybe. Vulnerable. You just wanted to solve some problem you had. But over the course of a day or a week or maybe even years, the person you were was lost. At some point it was replaced by a new identity.

The military uses an incredibly similar process. It goes like this:

• Unfreeze
• Change
• Refreeze

1) UNFREEZE
Before you adapt a new identity, you first must release the old one. Thus, the guru's 5-shifts webinar and all of their marketing materials constantly promote the shifts you must make before you get what you want.

This is where mind control techniques come into play.

Remember earlier I said if you control information flow, you control how a person thinks, feels, and behaves. And in my last post I said if you control any one of those 3, you can influence the other 2. Now, here's a secret...if you control all of 3, you can unfreeze a person's identity.

So the military, and also cults, start by controlling your environment. In doing so, they control the information flow. You show up at basic training or at the cult center. Then they push you physically (pushups, running, flutter kicks or other labor tasks). You're always tired, so you're always just trying to make it a little further.

Your entire day is controlled. You have no time to yourself. You're yelled at. Shamed. Guilted. Eventually, you break down.

The U.S. Army (when I went through) called this "Red" phase. There's also a "White" and a "Blue" phase, which align with the "change" and "refreeze" parts of this process.

Gurus do this by getting you to put yourself in their webinar. From there they control the information flow. They also control your behavior by only guiding you down their funnel path. They also control the context and frame and therefore control how and what you think. In doing that they can also manipulate your feelings and emotions.

All of this leads to you unfreezing the person you are, in order to be open to becoming the person you'd like to be.


2) CHANGE

Now you've lost your identity. You are not who you were before. You don't know who you are yet, but you're not the old person. Life is not the same. Every second of your day is controlled. Everything is different and there's no turning back.

Your only choice is forward.


Here the military sends you through endless classes (cults send you through seminars, and gurus put you through their course). Some are outside where you learn to shoot, move and kill. Others are inside, where you watch boring a$$ powerpoints or videos or listen to instructors drone on in your half-awake, more asleep state.

(Gurus accomplish this through goal setting and other homework activities and instructing meditation that takes up your time.)

So now you're exhausted mentally and physically. You've been in a constant trance. Your entire world was flipped upside down, and now you just want to adapt and survive.

Therefore, you begin to accumulate a new way of thinking.

You start to pick up the military's way of doing things. You learn how cult members operate. You stop doing things that lead to negative outcomes and start adapting behaviors that get you treated well. During all of this, you are adapting a new way of life, their way.

What I'm saying is...who you are begins to change.



3) REFREEZE
In the final stage you receive your new identity. In the Army, this is a glorious ceremony in which you're awarded your new identity in front of a large spectator audience. You are no longer the pathetic, weak brokeass fool you were before. Today, you're a United States Soldier.

With a handshake, and a salute from a guy you barely know...your identity transformation is complete.

NOTE: None of this is to claim that military is a dangerous cult. Just stating parallels.

Cults often give people new names to complete their identity shift.

Gurus give their members fancy titles.

In any case, it doesn't matter what you're called. You are no longer who you were. Instead...

YOU ARE NEGAN!!!

From here on out you are EXTREMELY open to whatever the group, cult, or guru desires.

You've committed too much. Invested too much. Altered your identity. To go against this path would be to turn against yourself. To quit would be to quit yourself. To not invest $30,000 for the super inner platinum millionaire alliance retreat special seminar, would be to fail yourself, the group members, and the leader.

So you just continue forward...because that's all you can do.

And this, my friends, is where we end for today, because this is the point of no return.

This is a kick a$$, awesome post. I don't understand why this thread isn't legendary or platinum yet.

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"Because of @SinisterLex I was able to ditch my white Nikes and red tracksuit. Lex' 3 day immersive seminar at the Hilton was the best $97,000 I ever spent. Soon I'm joining the Admiral club, so I can get exclusive small group seminars from Lex on his private ocean liner." - G-man.
 
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"Because of @SinisterLex I was able to ditch my white Nikes and red tracksuit. Lex' 3 day immersive seminar at the Hilton was the best $97,000 I ever spent. Soon I'm joining the Admiral club, so I can get exclusive small group seminars from Lex on his private ocean liner." - G-man.
Haha nice!XD
 

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"Because of @SinisterLex I was able to ditch my white Nikes and red tracksuit. Lex' 3 day immersive seminar at the Hilton was the best $97,000 I ever spent. Soon I'm joining the Admiral club, so I can get exclusive small group seminars from Lex on his private ocean liner." - G-man.

It's genuine testimonials like this that keep me motivated to help people just like you all over the world to create the same transformations in their own lives! Keep it up!

:playful:


 

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It's genuine testimonials like this that keep me motivated to help people just like you all over the world to create the same transformations in their own lives! Keep it up!

It's all lovey-dovey until the ocean liner gets into international waters.
 
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I was hoping that most people here would see the parallels of the "cult" and what we have going on here. Very similar dynamics except everyone here is free to go and the *cult* leader isn't deviously plotting how to extract every dollar out of your wallet/purse.

The purpose of the cult is actually detrimental to the cult itself -- freedom from anything and everything. Kinda like a self-defeating business model -- on Match.com if you find the love of your life and the service does its job, they lose a customer.
I have to humbly disagree @MJ DeMarco. The purpose of TFLF isn’t just to help people escape the script, but to also be a safe haven online for those that do.
 

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The beautiful thing is that this gigantic thread is a masterclass in persuasion, marketing, and copy -- and it is ENTIRELY FREE.

Yet unfortunately, RIGHT NOW, there is a lurking BRO-MARKETER out there who is dissecting it so he can re-package it, call it his own, and then sell it into his $9997 master class, once again, perpetuating the "Pay me thousands so I can teach you how to have other people pay you thousands" scam.

hooked.jpg
 

ZF Lee

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The beautiful thing is that this gigantic thread is a masterclass in persuasion, marketing, and copy -- and it is ENTIRELY FREE.

Yet unfortunately, RIGHT NOW, there is a lurking BRO-MARKETER out there who is dissecting it so he can re-package it, call it his own, and then sell it into his $9997 master class, once again, perpetuating the "Pay me thousands so I can teach you how to have other people pay you thousands" scam.

View attachment 18846
Could be hundreds of the BROs. This is the open, free forum on the Internet after all.

wPYbX89.jpg

F*ck, maybe Lex's thread was a pandora's box lol.

I'm sure that consumers are more alert these days, given that even SCRIPTED news outlets blast such occurences loudly.

Still, to set up ALL of these processes IS a process. Takes time. Lazy gurus won't go all the way, so we might see chinks in the armour quickly, should we fall upon webinars and such lol.
 
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Could be hundreds of the BROs. This is the open, free forum on the Internet after all.

wPYbX89.jpg

f*ck, maybe Lex's thread was a pandora's box lol.

I'm sure that consumers are more alert these days, given that even SCRIPTED news outlets blast such occurences loudly.

Still, to set up ALL of these processes IS a process. Takes time. Lazy gurus won't go all the way, so we might see chinks in the armour quickly, should we fall upon webinars and such lol.

Yes, it is a process, and amateur BROs tend to run out of money if they don't run out of motivation and interest first.

Higher level gurus already know this stuff. They're using it. They're teaching it. They just don't call it what it is.

Renaming and reframing is extremely effective at changing perception.

Is a pistol a tool for self-defense or a weapon of war?
Is marijuana a dangerous drug or a medicinal herb?
Is it an inspirational mastermind or a dangerous cult?

Also, this may be Pandora's box, but the Sith Master doesn't share everything he knows with the apprentice, lest they cease to need the master. I gave a lot of the "what's happening" and left out many specific "how" parts on purpose.

;)
 

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Speaking of masters...

Milton Erickson was a founding master in "hypnotherapy" otherwise known as "understanding human nature and exploiting it accordingly".

(I'm in no way suggesting Erikson had bad intentions.)

His methods have been used in probably less than ethical ways by Bandler and Grinder (The founders of NLP), Jim Rohn, Tony Robbins, "seduction gurus" like Neil Strauss and many of the "make money gurus" on the internet today.

View: https://youtu.be/BKU4Ygt_188


Notice how hypnotically he speaks but how different it is than the more fast talking, assertive ways that most gurus speak today.

Anyway...

Not to keep bringing up Elon Musk...

But...

Elon Musk To Facebook: Mmm ... K, Bye

Here is persuasion at its finest.

We can guess Musk probably doesn't care for Zuckerberg from some of the comments he's made about him not understanding A.I. and a few other things.

Elon Musk says Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of AI is 'limited'

Now we see him using this opportunity (the controversy with Facebook data) to really drive the stake through facebooks heart.

He deleted SpaceX and Tesla's Facebook pages.

And he did it PUBLICLY.

Why?

By using his influence to send a message of "Get off of Facebook" to other people.

What lever of persuasion does this use?

Negative Social Proof.

So again the point is between Milton Erickson and Elon Musk, persuasion and influence can look very different than the typical sleazy fast talking clown of a guru on the Internet.

And may have much nobler goals to accomplish with it as well.

Scott Adam's (who is trained in Milton Erickson's hypnotherapy techniques) has a book called Win Bigly.

Win Bigly: Persuasion in a World Where Facts Don't Matter https://www.amazon.com/dp/0735219710/?tag=tff-amazonparser-20

It's about persuasion.

And in particular the persuasion abilities of Trump.

Which are HUUUUUUGE.

Its a very good book.






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Brad S

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Could be hundreds of the BROs. This is the open, free forum on the Internet after all.

wPYbX89.jpg

f*ck, maybe Lex's thread was a pandora's box lol.

I'm sure that consumers are more alert these days, given that even SCRIPTED news outlets blast such occurences loudly.

Still, to set up ALL of these processes IS a process. Takes time. Lazy gurus won't go all the way, so we might see chinks in the armour quickly, should we fall upon webinars and such lol.

Could be hundreds of the BROs. This is the open, free forum on the Internet after all.

wPYbX89.jpg

f*ck, maybe Lex's thread was a pandora's box lol.

I'm sure that consumers are more alert these days, given that even SCRIPTED news outlets blast such occurences loudly.

Still, to set up ALL of these processes IS a process. Takes time. Lazy gurus won't go all the way, so we might see chinks in the armour quickly, should we fall upon webinars and such lol.

Yes like any business it would take a lot of time, energy, original thinking and relentless action to make money from this forum thread.

But the biggest reason it would be difficult is this:


"THE INWARD STATE:
Thick Face, Black Heart is not a doctrine in itself. Rather it concerns an element that is common to many doctrines. On its practical, less philosophical level, Thick Face, Black Heart is simply about action and its effectiveness. To take an example from modern America: Dozens of books are published each year that attempt to teach you how to make yourself a more effective executive, a better salesperson, and generally a happier, more dynamic individual. In these books, the author prescribes a course of action that will lead to the desired result. Typically, it is a plan that has worked for the author and for some of his students. But it doesn’t necessarily work well for many readers, even though they carefully follow the author’s instructions. For example, two people can read the same book on lion-taming. They can enter the lion’s cage dressed identically. They can use identical gestures and words to command the lion. But the results will not be the same. One of them will get the lion to jump through the hoop, and the other will end up as a gruesome mess on the floor of the lion’s cage. These authors do not seem to be aware that there is an inward state that must be achieved in order for words and actions to be effective. The experts who write these books are good at what they do because they have had the luck to achieve that state intuitively or unconsciously. They do not seem to comprehend the problems of those who have not been so fortunate."

That is an excerpt from the book Thick Face Black Heart.

Another great book to read if you're intrested in influence and persuasion.

Ironically I found this book about 5 years ago on this forums recommended book list.

Thanks MJ.

But the point is this:

I do think persuasion and influence can be LEARNED to some degree.

BUT...

NOTE (When people say BUT.. they're about to tell you what they really think... Credit to Dr. Phil for that one)

I think to be a "MASTER PERSUADER" you need to have an INTUITIVE understanding of human nature that is probably largely GENETIC.

A few examples of PROBABLY GENETICALLY gifted people with an INTUITIVE understanding of human nature are:

Donald Trump

Gary Vaynerchuck

Tony Robbins

Conor McGregor

Jim Rohn

Dr. Phil

Steve Jobs

Tai Lopez...

I use these examples to illustrate real life people rather than just words to demonstrate what I'm talking about here.

So the great business idea MJ had for taking this forums thread and making a masterclass for $10,000...

I think it would be extremely difficult for the "bro marketer".

Because at the core most of these people are just Pretenders to the throne.

They are the Court Jesters.

Not the King.











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Brad S

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I'm sure most people reading this thread have seen I Am Not Your Guru about Tony Robbins on Netflix.

It's probably been discussed many times on this forum.

But if anyone hasn't seen this, I can't think of anything that illustrates the principles in this thread more than this documentary.

View: https://youtu.be/HUHMZf3qwsQ


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This probably happens to you every time you buy groceries with a credit card. You put the card in the slot and wait to punch in your PIN. Your attention is focused on the the machine. If a sinister cashier (not saying I've tried this, just sayin' ..........) interrupts your focus, you will go into a trance.


"Would you like to donate to XYZ today?"
 

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Also, this may be Pandora's box, but the Sith Master doesn't share everything he knows with the apprentice, lest they cease to need the master. I gave a lot of the "what's happening" and left out many specific "how" parts on purpose.
The 'how' is more of an art. It depends on the kind of people the guru is going to reach out to.

Interacting with a bunch of broke teenagers is going to be different from interacting with seasoned Fastlane entrepreneurs.:playful: It's not something one can master from a thread writeup.

The material you put up feels specific enough, because it tells the 'why', that leads to the 'how'. Cause and effect.
 
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Yes, it is a process, and amateur BROs tend to run out of money if they don't run out of motivation and interest first.

Higher level gurus already know this stuff. They're using it. They're teaching it. They just don't call it what it is.

Renaming and reframing is extremely effective at changing perception.

Is a pistol a tool for self-defense or a weapon of war?
Is marijuana a dangerous drug or a medicinal herb?
Is it an inspirational mastermind or a dangerous cult?

Also, this may be Pandora's box, but the Sith Master doesn't share everything he knows with the apprentice, lest they cease to need the master. I gave a lot of the "what's happening" and left out many specific "how" parts on purpose.

;)
I still haven’t reconciled that in my head. We give away what to do, and why, and people pay for the how - when the what and the why are the most important part, and the how is generally less important. Hmmm...
 

Brad S

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HOW TO BECOME A RICH AND FAMOUS RELATIONSHIP GURU, WITHOUT ANY EXPERIENCE, LITERALLY OVERNIGHT!!!

Or at least how Copywriter Chris Haddad got on the Rachel Ray show as "Relationship Guru" Michael Fiore...

Chris Haddad is an expert in human nature and a great copywriter.

He's written sales letters for a bunch of well known "make money online guys" as well as many others.

SinisterLex you probably already know who he is.

Here's 2 videos of him giving a great presentation about human nature selling, and copywriting at a MindValley event.

View: https://youtu.be/rteSvoogGv0



View: https://youtu.be/joF5Ikc8ggw


MindValley sells information online, on many different topics.

The guy who runs it Vishen Lakhiani is another very persuasive guy that understands human nature.

Anyway...

Chris decides he's going to make his own product.

He calls it Text Your Ex Back and it's an info product.

View: https://youtu.be/CFmOuJvitrU


It becomes one of the highest selling products on clickbank.

But the unbelievable thing is he decides he's going to become a "Relationship Guru" named Michael Fiore to promote it.

He actually succeeds in getting main stream media attention including getting on the Rachael Ray show.


View: https://youtu.be/8m6LvmoOIGM



Talk about fake news...


View: https://youtu.be/DLRvpKmh9n0



A little more about emotion in selling from Chris...

The Emotional Side Of Copywriting | Chris Haddad







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We give away what to do, and why, and people pay for the how - when the what and the why are the most important part, and the how is generally less important. Hmmm...

While I agree, I try to place myself in some people's shoes that may be living in areas where businesses aren't customer- and value-centric and are just out trying to squeeze every dollar in every sale despite customers having a bad experience or feeling cheated.. If you grow in areas like these and this is all you see, I think your mindset would be to just look for the how to make quick money and the mentality of providing value and helping others to establish a long-term business is just hard to grasp because they've never been exposed to that.
 
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If you grow in areas like these and this is all you see, I think your mindset would be to just look for the how to make quick money and the mentality of providing value and helping others to establish a long-term business is just hard to grasp because they've never been exposed to that.

Describes the state of internet guru marketing now ... everyone is doing it, so I will too. Everyone lies about their rented penthouse and their rented Lambo, so I will too. Everyone uses slippery words, so I will too...
 

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I was hoping that most people here would see the parallels of the "cult" and what we have going on here. Very similar dynamics except everyone here is free to go and the *cult* leader isn't deviously plotting how to extract every dollar out of your wallet/purse.

The purpose of the cult is actually detrimental to the cult itself -- freedom from anything and everything. Kinda like a self-defeating business model -- on Match.com if you find the love of your life and the service does its job, they lose a customer.

I see this community as more of a tribe than a cult. I think the primary difference is the voluntary nature of the interactions.
 

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Remain got it wrong, but the leave campaign didn't, they knew their audience and knew what they needed to hear.

I don't want to get away from Lex's great thread and turn this into a political point, but I thought it's kind of relevant. The current story of Cambridge analytica is interesting. I think it's clear that before the US election, they worked with Leave.EU.

A lot of the manipulation techniques they used are discussed in this thread. Only they were able to do it on a much larger scale. And because of the data they had available, they knew exactly who they had to sway, and what their weaknesses were, so were able to get their manipulation campaign spot on.

Cambridge Analytica were filmed undercover saying that the important thing is to create emotionally compelling argument, rather than a logically sound one. They did it with the leave campaign by creating the bogeymen to stand up to (EU bureaucrats & immigrants). Then they did it in the US election with the Crooked Hillary campaign.

Generally, humans are very predictable, and the level of data now available means we're ripe for very targeted manipulation.. whether your money is the target, or your vote.

I researched Cambridge Analytica back in 2016 when I first heard about them.

This thread and the recent Facebook drama got me thinking about this video again.

Their business is very interesting and their CEO gives a great presentation.

View: https://youtu.be/n8Dd5aVXLCc


This is a look into a whole new level of manipulation.

Cambridge Analytica basically targets all the SCRIPTED people out there with Confirmation Bias using the Cancerous "social networks" and "main stream media" as the delivery mechanism.

It actually is genius.

@SinisterLex have you worked with any "Gurus" that have used data and psychographics to this extent?





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The Patriot Way

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I'm sure most people reading this thread have seen I Am Not Your Guru about Tony Robbins on Netflix.

It's probably been discussed many times on this forum.

But if anyone hasn't seen this, I can't think of anything that illustrates the principles in this thread more than this documentary.

View: https://youtu.be/HUHMZf3qwsQ


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Watched it right after I saw this post - I've been meaning to for a while. It was disappointing. Just one long infomercial for Tony Robbins, but kinda cool to get in there and see what goes on in those $5k seminars which I'll never attend. Jury's still out for me... He seems to help a lot of people, which I suppose is the most important thing, but I'd like to see follow ups down the road. Getting all jazzed up in a seminar with Tony Robbins in front of you and the music blaring over the loudspeakers is one thing, but when you fly back home and the hype wears off, what then? If you just dropped five grand for the thing you'd for sure be much more inclined to convince yourself that it was worth it, also.

It would've been great to offer some actual critiques of his practices and invite some skeptics to interview, but since Robbins partly funded it that wasn't gonna fly. Where do you even put a guy like this? Someone who coaches Tier 1 gurus, and has made $480 million doing so?
 

Brad S

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Watched it right after I saw this post - I've been meaning to for a while. It was disappointing. Just one long infomercial for Tony Robbins, but kinda cool to get in there and see what goes on in those $5k seminars which I'll never attend. Jury's still out for me... He seems to help a lot of people, which I suppose is the most important thing, but I'd like to see follow ups down the road. Getting all jazzed up in a seminar with Tony Robbins in front of you and the music blaring over the loudspeakers is one thing, but when you fly back home and the hype wears off, what then? If you just dropped five grand for the thing you'd for sure be much more inclined to convince yourself that it was worth it, also.

It would've been great to offer some actual critiques of his practices and invite some skeptics to interview, but since Robbins partly funded it that wasn't gonna fly. Where do you even put a guy like this? Someone who coaches Tier 1 gurus, and has made $480 million doing so?

Where do you put him?

You could probably make a case that he is the most persuasive person living today.

Certainly his fortune would be a big part of the the evidence for this.

And yeah Tony doesn't answer any real questions in this "documentary".

It's basically a promo piece that lays bare the whole machinery especially the back end of his seminars.

The workers gathering data on what people thought about certain things that happened so they can tailor the message better..

It goes to show you that you can pull back the curtain, like in the Wizard Of Oz, and people will still want their Heart, Brain, and Courage given to them by a source outside themselves: a "Wizard".

If Tony helps anybody it's because of Self Fulfilling Prophecy and Emperor's New Clothes Dynamics.

The alleged Henry Ford saying:

"Whether you think you can or can't you are right."

I think Macchiavelli's ideas about the conman and the conned are pretty accurate.

It is NOT a relationship of victim and perpetrator.

But of two willing dance partners.

2 sides of the same coin.






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This is the absolute best thread I've read to date on TFF.

I haven't contributed much because I'm new and well - pretty intimidated by the level of amazing most people here are at.

I just repped EVERYTHING I had (be it small) to @SinisterLex because this thread is (as @MJ DeMarco put it) a masterclass.

A couple points/questions I wanted to bring up...

1. I don't think most gurus are diabolical... I could be wrong, but I believe that most enter into the market with good intentions, and venture down this path as they find ways of marketing that make more money and convert [please correct me if I'm wrong].

I bring this up because I saw a lot of posts about people re-thinking using some of the strategies here or debating whether to sell informational products...

... and I don't think doing so automatically makes you a "guru" or a bro-marketer... or unethical [but I want to hear what you guys think!]

There could be good, valuable products that solve a problem, but only work for a small percentage of people... does that mean gurus are wrong or shouldn't be selling this product to everyone or at a high price?

That leads me to point/question 2...

2. It can be a fine line between having a quality product and getting "seduced to making your marketing the fire."

How do you walk the line and what do you use as litmus tests to stay on this side of things?

For example, Anthony Robbins started with his books and used Fran Tarkengton as a spokes person. His initial products were pretty good, offered tangible tools, and helped a lot of people. I believe (and could be wrong) that he started out with a true desire to help others.

Now, it SEEMS like he's become the "Stereotypical Guru" that this forum generally associates with a negative connotation.

He no doubt uses everything discussed in this thread, and I've met many people who can only give vague, feel-good testimonials as a result of attending his workshops.

But he has to market, and either him or his team are going to use the most persuasive tools at their disposal.

which leads to the last point/question

3. As a result of this forum I've chosen to build my copywriting skills. I've read about 10 books in the last month... including Ca$hvertising.

The authors all generally say the same thing [I'm paraphrasing]:

Selling is persuading, which by definition taps into people's psychology to get through the noise and their filters so they see the value and buy your product.


So to sum it all up... @SinisterLex ... what is your philosophy for using these techniques, building products, and staying on a more ethical path while still making money and charging people for a valuable product?

Obviously one can argue that the market will decide if a product is valuable, but after reading this thread, there could be some debate...

I know the thread is still going, but I just thought I'd throw this out there :)
 
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G-Man

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For some reason this quote I ran into feels relevant here:

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” - Mark Twain
 

MJ DeMarco

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Just gonna leave this here...

 

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