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O/T: HEALTH Transcendental Meditation Course, Good or Gurudom?

The Patriot Way

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@SinisterLex Thank you for all your insights thus far, it's an eye-opener watching you deconstruct guru tactics. In kind of the same vein, I was wondering if you may have any thoughts on or experiences with Transcendental Meditation? There's a lot of conflicting research, info, and criticism out there, and I recently decided to go to an introductory seminar (sales pitch) after reading Ray Dalio's strong endorsement in Principles.

They want $740 for four 60-90 minute training sessions, which ostensibly goes to their foundation to teach the TM technique to kids in developing countries. It feels a bit cultish and the whole "you can't learn it from a book because you need a qualified teacher to guide you and give you a personalized mantra" thing is setting off alarm bells. Hope I'm not distracting from the main topic, just thought I'd throw it out there as more potential guruism. My guru-dar still leaves something to be desired so I go back and forth with the validity of the organization.
 

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Lex DeVille

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@SinisterLex Thank you for all your insights thus far, it's an eye-opener watching you deconstruct guru tactics. In kind of the same vein, I was wondering if you may have any thoughts on or experiences with Transcendental Meditation? There's a lot of conflicting research, info, and criticism out there, and I recently decided to go to an introductory seminar (sales pitch) after reading Ray Dalio's strong endorsement in Principles.

They want $740 for four 60-90 minute training sessions, which ostensibly goes to their foundation to teach the TM technique to kids in developing countries. It feels a bit cultish and the whole "you can't learn it from a book because you need a qualified teacher to guide you and give you a personalized mantra" thing is setting off alarm bells. Hope I'm not distracting from the main topic, just thought I'd throw it out there as more potential guruism. My guru-dar still leaves something to be desired so I go back and forth with the validity of the organization.
TBH it sounds a bit cultish.

That isn't to say there aren't benefits to meditation, but I know virtually nothing about "transcendental" meditation. I do meditate for mindfulness. It involves sitting completely still and thinking of nothing. Just being present. This calms and quiets the mind, but doesn't involve any kind of incantation.

Cults use meditation quite a lot to induce trance states that leads to an open (read vulnerable) mind. From there they have an easier time controlling your thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. I'll talk more on that soon. For now just know that if you control any of the three things I just mentioned (in other people), you also can influence the other 2 elements in them, and this is how mind control happens.

I'll try to go deeper on this a little later today.

Just remember the old rule...if it seems to good to be true...or if you get that gut feeling...GET THE F*CK OUTTA THERE!

:clench:
 
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The Patriot Way

The Patriot Way

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TBH it sounds a bit cultish.

That isn't to say there aren't benefits to meditation, but I know virtually nothing about "transcendental" meditation. I do meditate for mindfulness. It involves sitting completely still and thinking of nothing. Just being present. This calms and quiets the mind, but doesn't involve any kind of incantation.

Cults use meditation quite a lot to induce trance states that leads to an open (read vulnerable) mind. From there they have an easier time controlling your thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. I'll talk more on that soon. For now just know that if you control any of the three things I just mentioned (in other people), you also can influence the other 2 elements in them, and this is how mind control happens.

I'll try to go deeper on this a little later today.

Just remember the old rule...if it seems to good to be true...or if you get that gut feeling...GET THE F*CK OUTTA THERE!

:clench:
Lol indeed, thanks for your response. Just a bit more background, for what it's worth. TM has numerous celebrities who are actively promoting it and espousing its benefits (Dalio, Oprah, Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Michael J. Fox, Ellen DeGeneres, etc. etc.), which is obvious social proof but also probably suspicious given that Scientology enjoys a similar type of validation. TM is supposedly (I say supposedly because this is just based on their own literature and third party accounts, since I haven't tried it) differentiated from other forms of meditation in that it is meant to be effortless, and instead of fighting to clear your mind and render it blank, you accept various thoughts that waft by and re-center yourself by repeating the mantra in your head. They claim doing this twice a day for 20 minutes at a time will significantly improve your mental and physical health, and in turn increase productivity and focus (something I'm sure we're all interested in).

As someone who just wants to see the DATA and clinical studies with these kinds of claims, the study that they cited in my seminar was from 2009 (A randomized controlled trial on effects of the Transcendental Meditation program on blood pressure, psychological distress, and coping in young ad... - PubMed - NCBI), which somewhat backs this up. But really I'm just having a real tough time buying into the idea that TM is somehow measurably better than other forms of meditation, and you'll have to shell out hundreds and hundreds of dollars to get this edge. All the books on Amazon seem to have a funnel-like quality to them.

I don't know, I'm personally someone who can be very reactive and anyone who drives in a big city I'm sure can relate to the need to reduce stress and anger. Also I don't want to be overly cynical and become paranoid of any technique that could potentially be very helpful. The seminar wasn't a hard sell at all, but maybe that's the goal! ("It's all chill, man...do it if you want...no pressure...")
 
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Guest92dX

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@The Patriot Way

Credentials:

I have 3.5 years of study in meditation in the modalities of Emotional Freedom Technique, Sedona Method, Inner Reconcilation, Allowing, Visualization in the Kabbala mysticism, Memory rewriting, accupuncture, eyes open, non-dualism, and possibly 2 more modalities I forgot. I've also read a book on hypnosis by Milton H. Erickson. Plus, I have like 3 of what are called "yogic powers", some of the powers everyone says you get from meditation. You can't prove I do though. The "yogic powers" are a trap though.

I've read psychiatric textbooks and philosophy books. I've read eastern philosophy books where meditation originates from. I'm currently listening to the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu.

I even had a coach who I worked with for 2 years and change and took a break from for like 8 months. I'm working with him again. I also nearly completed a bachelors in philosophy and have a bachelors in political science with a focus on political philosophy that critiques societal structures. Useless degrees except for situations like this.

Read the earlier part of @SinisterLex the thread about credentials.

Does this sound believable?

Please post a link with course you're looking at if you want me to dissect it.

There is NOOOOO such thing as "transcendental" meditation. The celebrities are just saying mantra meditation is best because *gasp* it doesn't require work.

Mantras do work. It is really just a non-dualistic way to see the meaninglessness in words. It is a way to find home. However, mantras work the same way as any other meditation.

The sources on meditation are generally bad. Meditation has started to go mainstream because medical studies are backing it up. Physics is backing up claims made by spiritual teachers. See the exotic physics theories.

If you want a meditation course by referral then check out the MasterheartInstitute, inner reconciliation, and GPWalsh. I wish I was an affiliate for these guys because they give so much away free.

GPWalsh also knows more modalities than I do and can easily speak to them.

They used to have a paid course on how to get women by naturally removing your attachments in life.

Of 10 - 15 students I know of who took the course, 100% of them found women. I don't know time frames of how long it took them though. I peeked at the course and forum in the last stages of its lifecycle. Some even went on to date multiple women at once. They didn't teach you any "techniques" either. All they did was show you reality and deconstruct your mind into the awareness that is always present in you.

They have since moved onto 100% meditation and eastern philosophy.

They really need help with growing their brand. They suck at copywriting and don't like making promises they can't keep.

The secret sauce Ray Dalio recommends isn't some transcendental thing. It's being yourself without conditioning, something @MJ DeMarco told you about in the TMF and Unscripted.

You can get the great awakening through action or meditations. Meditations is the direct path.

The only thing that awaits you in meditation is death of the ego. It really may even feel like you're dying when you're close to reaching 24/7 unconditionedness.
 
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The Patriot Way

The Patriot Way

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@The Patriot Way

Credentials:

I have 3.5 years of study in meditation in the modalities of Emotional Freedom Technique, Sedona Method, Inner Reconcilation, Allowing, Visualization in the Kabbala mysticism, Memory rewriting, accupuncture, eyes open, non-dualism, and possibly 2 more modalities I forgot. I've also read a book on hypnosis by Milton H. Erickson. Plus, I have like 3 of what are called "yogic powers", some of the powers everyone says you get from meditation. You can't prove I do though. The "yogic powers" are a trap though.

I've read psychiatric textbooks and philosophy books. I've read eastern philosophy books where meditation originates from. I'm currently listening to the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu.

I even had a coach who I worked with for 2 years and change and took a break from for like 8 months. I'm working with him again. I also nearly completed a bachelors in philosophy and have a bachelors in political science with a focus on political philosophy that critiques societal structures. Useless degrees except for situations like this.

Read the earlier part of @SinisterLex the thread about credentials.

Does this sound believable?

Please post a link with course you're looking at if you want me to dissect it.

There is NOOOOO such thing as "transcendental" meditation. The celebrities are just saying mantra meditation is best because *gasp* it doesn't require work.

Mantras do work. It is really just a non-dualistic way to see the meaninglessness in words. It is a way to find home. However, mantras work the same way as any other meditation.

The sources on meditation are generally bad. Meditation has started to go mainstream because medical studies are backing it up. Physics is backing up claims made by spiritual teachers. See the exotic physics theories.

If you want a meditation course by referral then check out the MasterheartInstitute, inner reconciliation, and GPWalsh. I wish I was an affiliate for these guys because they give so much away free.

GPWalsh also knows more modalities than I do and can easily speak to them.

They used to have a paid course on how to get women by naturally removing your attachments in life.

Of 10 - 15 students I know of who took the course, 100% of them found women. I don't know time frames of how long it took them though. I peeked at the course and forum in the last stages of its lifecycle. Some even went on to date multiple women at once. They didn't teach you any "techniques" either. All they did was show you reality and deconstruct your mind into the awareness that is always present in you.

They have since moved onto 100% meditation and eastern philosophy.

They really need help with growing their brand. They suck at copywriting and don't like making promises they can't keep.

The secret sauce Ray Dalio recommends isn't some transcendental thing. It's being yourself without conditioning, something @MJ DeMarco told you about in the TMF and Unscripted.

You can get the great awakening through action or meditations. Meditations is the direct path.

The only thing that awaits you in meditation is death of the ego. It really may even feel like you're dying when you're close to reaching 24/7 unconditionedness.
Tao Te Ching is on my shelf, and I need to read that soon. Thanks for your take on this. I expected as much that TM isn't really anything special, but I'm just exploring ways to be less reactive and reduce stress and increase focus. I'm easily distracted and really, really need to learn to focus better on everything - reading, building web pages, solving problems with the process path, just everything. Meditation (not sure what kind is "best") seems like a fantastic thing to incorporate into our daily routines.

Anyway their website is tm.org. My guess is that it is helpful, just not $740 helpful or that it's somehow superior to other traditional meditation methods. They still haven't called me back to follow up, but I noticed they used scarcity tactics ("Our Monday session is already sold out, so you want to be sure to reserve your seat within the next few days or so in order to get into the class in two weeks"). I'm still trying to unplug from the Matrix here (I did go to the seminar) but thankfully never reached for my credit card.
 
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Guest92dX

Guest
Tao Te Ching is on my shelf, and I need to read that soon. Thanks for your take on this. I expected as much that TM isn't really anything special, but I'm just exploring ways to be less reactive and reduce stress and increase focus. I'm easily distracted and really, really need to learn to focus better on everything - reading, building web pages, solving problems with the process path, just everything. Meditation (not sure what kind is "best") seems like a fantastic thing to incorporate into our daily routines.

Anyway their website is tm.org. My guess is that it is helpful, just not $740 helpful or that it's somehow superior to other traditional meditation methods. They still haven't called me back to follow up, but I noticed they used scarcity tactics ("Our Monday session is already sold out, so you want to be sure to reserve your seat within the next few days or so in order to get into the class in two weeks"). I'm still trying to unplug from the Matrix here (I did go to the seminar) but thankfully never reached for my credit card.
The Masterheart Institute courses cost like $300+ for each level of inner reconciliation. If I had the cash, I would pay for them. I have some of their old products.

The TM claims cannot be verified as unique. ALL meditation has the same benefits. The medical studies they're talking about just reference the normal mainstream modalities and techniques doctors know about.

The Juice is not in the technique. It is in the process.

I would suggest you just pay for a coach. Again, I recommend a facilitator from the MasterHeart Institute. They are technique agnostic like meditation is supposed to be.

The benefits are real:

Meditation can cure MAJOR mental illness
Lower blood pressure
Increase brain function
Heal old wounds
etc. etc. etc.

You don't need to look at the medical studies because doctors don't know how it works.

In fact, there hasn't ever been a multi-decade longitudinal or twin snapshot analysis. There is no REAL medical proof yet. If there was, insurance companies would be itching to send people to accupuncture as it is a form of meditation/energy healing and super freaking cheap.

You CANNOT get the benefits if you don't take it seriously though and confront the things you won't tell anyone about, the things that make you feel like you would die if they were posted on the internet.

All of this is again coming from my "credentials".

Here is my library for meditation if you don't want to pay for a course or coaching:

Work through the books in the following order (they are ordered by value and impact).

1. The Tao of Allowing by GP Walsh
2. Letting Go: The Pathway of Surrender by David R. Hawkins M.D. P.H.D. (yes medical doctor and psychiatrist)
3. Sex Matters: from sex to superconsciousness by OSHO
4. Standing as Awareness
5. The Direct Path

It's not about what you use but how you use it. Process.

Worry about the best meditation modality after you've spent some time learning how to hit the nail on the head with the hammer first.

Also, try focusing on one thing first.

Here's a riddle for you that you will enjoy.

How do you eat an elephant?

It's an old riddle I remember being asked. You can answer in my journal thread below. The answer is really funny.

EXECUTION - Journal of Next Business
 

MJ DeMarco

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This thread was extracted from the Guru Cults Gold thread, it was a side topic that might be worthy of more discussion in its own thread...

Continue on folks ... @EasternCrane @The Patriot Way
 
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Guest92dX

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@MJ DeMarco

Thank you.

@The Patriot Way

Do you have more questions? Would you like me to write you a break down of the modalities that I know? There is no secret best meditation. It is wise to get a technique agnostic coach who will teach you many.

My main point about the medical studies is that they will not show you what you're looking for. It's like the finger pointing to moon.

The athlete with perfect blood pressure, heart rate, nerves of steel, and picture of physical fitness, where can you point to what made him that? It is not in the sport. It is not in the training. It is in the process. It is in his body.

Your doctor cannot point to what makes the athlete function so well: the doctor may say: he exercises, he eats right, he keeps a daily schedule, he gets adequate sleep, he hydrates well, he gets his vitamins.

Your doctor may also say about the athlete: his glucose levels are in balance, his autonomic nervous works well, his brain functions properly, his lungs are in working order.

All of these are symptoms of the health, when the reality is that health is a state of being and is not tangible.

We know that eating correctly, exercising well, hydrating, and resting is critical to great health.

A meditative school of thought would say Neti Neti (Not this, nor that)

None of those things alone makes for a good athlete. It is everything. It is nothing.

What is a good man, but a bad man's teacher? What is a bad man, but a good man's job?

What is an athlete, but a handicap's struggle? What is a handicap, but an athlete's heart?
 
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Guest92dX

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see the asterisk or TM or copyright?

It's just normal mantra meditation.

If you want, I can write you a crash course on Emotional Freedom Technique or something else.

Just a question. How does the Tao Te Ching feel for you?
 

Nijbee

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Meditation? It's easy. Sit down, be comfortable close your eyes. Now count your breaths. In. Out. Repeat. Don't think. Don't try not to think. Do that for five minutes. Not so easy. Add a minute now and again. If you work up to twenty mins over a few months you are doing well.

Feel free to wire me the $3000 dollars I just saved you. I might just let you join my Super Mega Master Meditator course if you are lucky!

Seriously, TM doesn't have anything more special than any other form of meditation. Definitely smells of guru to me.

There are some good teachers of practical mindful meditation out there. Just don't get guru'd

I've done Tai Chi for many years as I like to move as well as focus. More fun and more evidence of benefit - physical and mental.
 

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I know the trend is to shit on gurus but can someone who's actually tried TM comment?

I've been meditating for close to 6 years and the only reason I'm kind of curious is because it is endorsed by super successful people as stated
 
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Guest92dX

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Seriously, TM doesn't have anything more special than any other form of meditation. Definitely smells of guru to me.

There are some good teachers of practical mindful meditation out there. Just don't get guru'd

I've done Tai Chi for many years as I like to move as well as focus. More fun and more evidence of benefit - physical and mental.
For anyone who doesn't get Nijbee's joke, meditation is more than just closing your eyes and trying to shut out thoughts while focusing on breathing.

That is the fastest path to no progress.

Qi Gong is also nice and has many benefits. Tai Chi is what first sparked the glint of interest for me when I was younger. It was many years before I would even sit down to meditate or know how to do it.

All meditation is supposed to take you to the level of integration with movement. Some just don't place a high emphasis on it. Other modalities are more energy intensive and rewire the entire nervous system from the ground up. Still with others, you don't need to move because of the way it works.
 
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The Patriot Way

The Patriot Way

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see the asterisk or TM or copyright?

It's just normal mantra meditation.

If you want, I can write you a crash course on Emotional Freedom Technique or something else.

Just a question. How does the Tao Te Ching feel for you?
I haven't yet read it, but I did read Art of War last summer and if I remember correctly Tao Te Ching was referenced several times. Please don't take your time for that! I will look into the books you suggested and go from there. I am also planning on enrolling in a Tai Chi course soon, and I know that will help.
 

luniac

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ive read that different type of meditation achieves different results in the brain, and our current research is nowhere near to conclusively state which form is most desirable.

Crucial Questions about Meditation and the Brain | Beyond The Mind

I'm leaning towards emptying the mind as much as possible, same as relaxing the muscles as much as possible.
If i need to focus on a task, it will be most logical and easiest to achieve that focus from an "empty" mind state vs a distracted mind full of random thoughts.

So basically 24/7 whenever i get the thought to do so, i check how physically relaxed i am, how mentally calm i am, and i try to non forcefully nudge myself towards calmness and relaxation.
I use my personal training in the Zhan Zhuang to understand what "relaxed" really means, it trains the body to become hyper sensitive to tensions deep within the body, and when all that is released, the mind goes with it. Then u realize its all interconnected. Our ego is in the way of perfection, ironically...

I've had doubts about this because i felt id become some kind of emotionless machine, but actually i'm perfectly capable of "feeling" stuff with an empty mind. I can even feel powerful emotions like anger, fear, anxiety, etc and be calm and relaxed at the same time.

if anything, i actually feel things more strongly and "healthfully", no suppression, more clarity.

here's an interesting interview with a dude who spent a lifetime discovering "stillness"
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZXhPmHPoNo
 
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Guest92dX

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@luniac
I'm glad you see that all meditation sources leads to the same path. Some just take different routes.

It's like saying because my electrician wired my house according to federal guidelines, state, or city guidelines one way is better. All the standards have different merits.

Just be happy your house is up to code.

If you're concerned with the brain, sex, wealth, money, friends, happiness etc. Then meditation will never have it's full impact.

You WILL get enough progress to see the way and then be trapped because it will give you what you're looking for. You won't reach the final destination though because you wont realize it's unobtainable.

Btw, @The Patriot Way

Sex Matters is a very deep book. I forgot that I had stopped it because it felt like droning.

It might feel like droning, but don't think you have the message after the first few chapters. Meditate on it.

I recently found out that I have sex shame in a way I didn't even understand. Let Osho shine light on every facet of your life. Be open. Be critical. Be easy. Be spiritual. Be kind. Be firm.

Just be, while you're reading the book.

I think Oscar Wilde wrote, "Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power."

If you work with Osho, he will show you the Dao of sex. There are deep moments and then critical thinking moments. There is fact and spirituality mixed together.

How does it help with business?

Bill Gates. Married to super model.
Black Private Equity billionaire. Married to Playboy Playmate.
Mark Zuckerberg. Created biggest dating platform ever in disguise.
Donald Trump. Married to former model.

Check the wives or girlfriends of the most prominent millionaire media darlings.

Need I go on?

Business is about sex. Even if you don't aim your business to be about sex, you will still wind up at the highest levels with most sex can produce as fact. When you have the super consciousness, you will wind up with the most sex can produce as fact and consciousness.
 

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@SinisterLex Thank you for all your insights thus far, it's an eye-opener watching you deconstruct guru tactics. In kind of the same vein, I was wondering if you may have any thoughts on or experiences with Transcendental Meditation? There's a lot of conflicting research, info, and criticism out there, and I recently decided to go to an introductory seminar (sales pitch) after reading Ray Dalio's strong endorsement in Principles.

They want $740 for four 60-90 minute training sessions, which ostensibly goes to their foundation to teach the TM technique to kids in developing countries. It feels a bit cultish and the whole "you can't learn it from a book because you need a qualified teacher to guide you and give you a personalized mantra" thing is setting off alarm bells. Hope I'm not distracting from the main topic, just thought I'd throw it out there as more potential guruism. My guru-dar still leaves something to be desired so I go back and forth with the validity of the organization.
For me meditation definitely works, however give it a try for free first before investing money. From my experience meditating for more than 2 years now, is not about the quantity or how much you pay (even if you pay apps like Headspace) rather is about how you feel and impact your life positively.

This could me 3 minutes meditation in the morning or a weekend retreat every now and then.
 
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Guest92dX

Guest
I know the trend is to sh*t on gurus but can someone who's actually tried TM comment?

I've been meditating for close to 6 years and the only reason I'm kind of curious is because it is endorsed by super successful people as stated
The darkness is no brighter, the light no dimmer.

If you understand the source or the light then you must laugh at it's unfathomable depths. You must laugh at what it provides.

It is hilarious. I'm beginning to understand how hilarious everything really is.

Go deeper in your own meditation until you realize the unconditioned mind. The meditation is a particular.

Now if what you're doing isn't working for you as a student then definitely explore. I actually dislike what my coach does sometimes because he's frequently changing modalities on me. He tailors what is done to me.

It took 2 years before I laughed at the unconditionedness and another year before I started finding the self generated happiness.

You should have already found the great awakening. It is not what you think it is though. It is unfathomably deep and shallow at the same time.

Who am I is the only question to answer. Don't worry about the benefits. They will take care of their self.

GP Walsh has relevant celebrities recommending him like Jack Canfield from chicken soup of the soul. Wish they never cannibalized that series though.

Now if TM has Tony Robbins or Eckhart Tolle recommending them then consider it. It may be a decent way for beginners to enter meditation

The only point I'm making is you can't "transcend" who you really are even if you die because if you did then it wouldn't have been you. Every night you die and then wake up the same as before.

Question: have you just meditated or have you used your modality to release issues? Releasing on personal issues will help you reach unconditionedness faster.
 
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Guest92dX

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From bridges in the sky

Quote: "I will not grow in the light until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart."

For anyone interested in meditation. Start at that point.

Start working with the unobserved mind, the subconscious, the shadow.
 

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You can check this one:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dy-e7DMnQY


Give it a try for a couple of weeks (2-4) and see if there is any difference. There was for me.

But as my friend told me. Meditation is just being present here and now. And one of my favourites musicians, Steve Vai, said that playing guitar is a form of meditation. Because you focus on here and now.

Putting together puzzles can be a form of meditation.

Playing an instrument ^^ can be one.

Exercising, if you are able to turn of thinking while doing it.

Think of something that will stop your brain from thinking about thousand things per minute and will focus on just one.
 

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