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Let's Talk About Entrepreneurial Depression

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Walter Hay

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I still see some very sad posts by people who can't find a way out. On reading a number of them it is my strong opinion that they are suffering from either Bipolar Disorder, or Clinical Depression.

Having for over 10 years collaborated with a top notch psychiatrist, much in demand on the speaking circuit, I learned a lot about various mental illnesses as a result of doing a lot of research for him.

Rather than go over what I posted nearly a year ago, I suggest that some could find help from what I wrote in Post #59.

One important point that I did not mention is that Bipolar Disorder is widespread, but very seriously under-diagnosed.

A major reason for the failure to diagnose the illness is that most people who have no idea what is causing their erratic behavior and depression, only present when they are depressed, and many psychiatrists are too lazy to ask a few vital questions. The result is they prescribe something to treat depression and that makes manic behavior worse.

This is not just my opinion. Professors of Psychiatry have in a number of journals over the years castigated psychiatrists who won't make that little extra effort.

All they have to do is ask this one question and the answer will tell them whether or not they should ask the remaining questions that will confirm or reject a diagnosis of Bipolar Disorder: "Have you ever had the opposite of depression, when you’ve been extremely happy, over the top, doing things out of character or talking too fast? "

Surely they could at least make that tiny effort.

Walter
 
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srodrigo

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Not depression (I think...), but it's true that I felt happier before I got into this unscripted mindset. All I wanted was to progress in my career and become the best software developer I could. I was happy.

Now I don't care that much about my career and look at the clock thinking that I'm not achieving my (new) goals, and makes me feel unhappy.

I'm still glad that I read the books though haha.
 

El Dorito

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Look, it's 2020 already as mind programming works on the encephalon to kick depression to the curb.

There are chemical imbalances to the brain that can cause depression.
 
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WJK

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Look, it's 2020 already as mind programming works on the encephalon to kick depression to the curb.

There are chemical imbalances to the brain that can cause depression.
I know from personal experience that depression is real. It's like being stuck in place... frozen... unable to move forward. BUT, I also know that you can make yourself get up and move. That action is as powerful, or more so, than the meds that most people end up taking.

I understand it this way: Depression is one way of reacting to feeling in danger. People and animals freeze in place, turn to fight, or they run away. Depression put simply -- is when a person feels afraid all the time. It puts them into a 24/7 freeze mode. They cannot function. Conversely, others become perpetually angry (fight reaction) or unable to settle into one location (always running away). Our knee-jerk reaction was learned early in life and it's deeply embedded. Once that pattern is recognized, change is possible. Choosing a reaction to danger is a decision, not a given.
 
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AppMan

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I know from personal experience that depression is real. It's like being stuck in place... frozen... unable to move forward. BUT, I also know that you can make yourself get up and move. That action is as powerful, or more so, than the meds that most people end up taking.

I understand it this way: Depression is one way of reacting to feeling in danger. People and animals freeze in place, turn to fight, or they run away. Depression put simply -- is when a person feels afraid all the time. It puts them into a 24/7 freeze mode. They cannot function. Conversely, others become perpetually angry (fight reaction) or unable to settle into one location (always running away). Our knee-jerk reaction was learned early in life and it's deeply embedded. Once that pattern is recognized, change is possible. Choosing a reaction to danger is a decision, not a given.
From what I know depression is more loosing desire in life in general and see no value or happeniess there, which make you loose desire to do things because you see them meaningless
 

Primeperiwinkle

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I know from personal experience that depression is real. It's like being stuck in place... frozen... unable to move forward. BUT, I also know that you can make yourself get up and move. That action is as powerful, or more so, than the meds that most people end up taking.

I understand it this way: Depression is one way of reacting to feeling in danger. People and animals freeze in place, turn to fight, or they run away. Depression put simply -- is when a person feels afraid all the time. It puts them into a 24/7 freeze mode. They cannot function. Conversely, others become perpetually angry (fight reaction) or unable to settle into one location (always running away). Our knee-jerk reaction was learned early in life and it's deeply embedded. Once that pattern is recognized, change is possible. Choosing a reaction to danger is a decision, not a given.

I’ve never read this about fear being connected to depression but it makes perfect sense. Thank you for sharing it.
 

WJK

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From what I know depression is more loosing desire in life in general and see no value or happeniess there, which make you loose desire to do things because you see them meaningless
Yes, it can appear that everything has lost meaning. But, by digging down under that lack of interest, I usually find that there is an overwhelming fear or huge knot of pain that has overshadowed everything else. Usually, my inner self is telling me that I need to solve something -- or pay attention to an issue that I've been ignoring. It's time for changes -- to rethink things -- a shift in my life.
Depression is different from being sad. Sad is dealing with a loss or a traumatic event. Feeling depressed is harder to define since it is not usually visibly directly related to something specific. The problem must, many times, be discovered and explored.
You say that "you lose (the) desire to do things because you see them (as) meaningless". This will happen to you time and time again over your life. Things that used to be very important to me no longer even move me. I just don't care anymore. It's not depression. It's just the process of living through different life experiences.
Maybe you have another experience from me and the people around me. What is yours?
 
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sparechange

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I've been feeling kinda crappy lately, tons of rejections..... people not wanting my product, getting told no etc.

Grind more I guess, still need to hit my goal of Mj's recommendation for 10k/1k impressions... Then I can do some deep evaluation.

Doing runs and fitness stuff helps a bit.. slowly driving myself insane

34693
 

WJK

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I've been feeling kinda crappy lately, tons of rejections..... people not wanting my product, getting told no etc.

Grind more I guess, still need to hit my goal of Mj's recommendation for 10k/1k impressions... Then I can do some deep evaluation.

Doing runs and fitness stuff helps a bit.. slowly driving myself insane

View attachment 34693
Have you figured out how many no answers you must get in order to get a yes? When I was selling, I knew my odds. I was always afraid I would quit one or two more no answers before I got that yes. What if it takes 99 no answers to get your one yes? What if you stopped asking at #97 or #99????? I also used a deck of cards. You shuffle them. Sometimes the face cards are scattered throughout the deck. Sometimes they are all together -- or a couple of them are together. I know that there are yes answers out there IF I ask the right way and don't quit.
 

sparechange

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Have you figured out how many no answers you must get in order to get a yes? When I was selling, I knew my odds. I was always afraid I would quit one or two more no answers before I got that yes. What if it takes 99 no answers to get your one yes? What if you stopped asking at #97 or #99????? I also used a deck of cards. You shuffle them. Sometimes the face cards are scattered throughout the deck. Sometimes they are all together -- or a couple of them are together. I know that there are yes answers out there IF I ask the right way and don't quit.

Interesting way to look at it, haven't figured that number out as I'm only getting no's now, but lets see...
 
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WJK

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Interesting way to look at it, haven't figured that number out as I'm only getting no's now, but lets see...
It a matter of figuring out your averages over a lot of encounters. I use to use a baggie of dried peas that I would transfer to another baggie as I made my contacts. That way I could keep count. It also made it harder for me to quit and go home before I make the number of contacts I had planned.
 

Seniorpreneur

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It's a tough topic, but one that should not be taboo to talk about.

If you choose the life of an entrepreneur, there's one thing you need to accept that's not in almost any business book: Your probability of being depressed, stressed, and anxious skyrockets.



You're 4x more likely to be depressed at some point if you choose the "fastlane" path. To get through the dark times, you have to be mentally strong and prepared. You also have to acknowledge that this is something that can happen, and be ready to get help when you need it.

The life of an entrepreneur is not easy. Socially, you're considered an outcast by family members and friends that all have slowlane jobs. Financially, you're continuously on the brink of ruin until you get something going. Ego-wise, you're bouncing between feeling like a god and felling like a bum. I've been there, I know. I'm still there every once in awhile.

It's hard, and something you need to prepare for.

In my life, I'm currently struggling with a best friend that's become an alcoholic - and on the inside it's tearing me apart. He couldn't handle the stress and turned to drinking. As his numbers didn't meet with his time expectations, that led to more drinking and more depression, and more drinking again. He's on a downward spiral and we're doing our best to make help him, making sure he doesn't do anything stupid, but bit by bit he's losing a part of himself each day.

It's incredibly hard to see, but I get it.

I've personally had suicidal thoughts, and know a good number of entrepreneurs that were in a similar boat. Start of 2017 I had a paper net worth over a million at 25. End of 2017, I had my money stolen by a factory, and went broke. When I found out I lost it all, I spent the night drinking a fifth by myself in a Malaysian nightclub wondering if I should end it. The next day I woke up, realized I loved myself, and started questioning why I'd ever think that. So I bought a ticket to a village in Thailand and did Muay Thai every day until I got my mind right. I caught my depression before it could catch me.

This is something that you need to prepare for. For a lot of you ambitious folks, it's something that comes with the territory. Don't believe me?

Here are quotes from a few top entrepreneurs:











This is something that a lot of ambitious people go through.

And it's not something you should be ashamed of, if it hits you too. However, it is something that you need to acknowledge exists as a risk, and determine if you have the mental fortitude to jump into entrepreneurship and the fastlane.

You also need a plan to deal with the stress, sadness, and darkness if it comes.

For me, things that really help are:
  • Working out. It's a great stress relief that releases endorphins and helps you feel better little by little.
  • Having friends that are going through or have gone through the same struggle. This forum is amazing with the wealth of entrepreneurial experiences. It's nice to know that you're not alone and not feel as isolated. Meet these people in real life to make it more real.
  • Staying away from substances when I'm sad or stressed. If I'm feeling down, I stay away from anything that can be a crutch. There's very little in life that three nights of sleep can't fix. Stay away from alcohol, drugs, and other substances when you're feeling down. They won't help you, just make matters worse.
  • Things that I'm proud of and can point at. Some of my proudest accomplishments are people that I've helped. When you're feeling good, consider going out and helping others. Consider this your mental insurance policy when you're feeling down. When you're down, just think of the people you've helped, and use that as motivation to go forward.
For yourself, make sure you have your own plan if things go bad. And remember: your mental health is more important than any dollar you make. Your identity isn't money, or how your business is doing. Those are just things that you happen to do.

Any thoughts?
At 75 I'm very happy to be a Seniorpreneur. The main difference that I found in my own life is that today I am mostly giving back to society as a transcendent instead of blindly trying to rip people off including friends and relatives. It is possible to find bliss in an entrepreneurship career. However, in most cases your values are very important especially in the 10th chapter of your life and beyond.
 

WJK

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At 75 I'm very happy to be a Seniorpreneur. The main difference that I found in my own life is that today I am mostly giving back to society as a transcendent instead of blindly trying to rip people off including friends and relatives. It is possible to find bliss in an entrepreneurship career. However, in most cases your values are very important especially in the 10th chapter of your life and beyond.
I have been self-employed for almost all of my adult life -- an entrepreneur -- for about the last 45 years. Some days have been difficult and others have been wonderful. It has given me a lot of moments where I have paid forward or given back. Character and personal values are everything.
 
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PirriRichFast

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At the moment i have a Burnout..
Also feel depressed allot of times i guess.
But also have this burning desire!! To get a better job and i will get a better job!
Also i will get my own company!
Always feed your mind and body with the right things
Always learn new ways to make yourself stronger.. because this world is a hard cold f up place sometimes.

I commit myself to everyday doing the Wim Hof breathing in the morning then after that taking a cold shower.
and stay under the cold shower for atleast 3 minutes.
Eating healthy foods, taking vitamines.
Exercise and i already feeling damn good doing all these! Fo burn outs and depression! lets fight for or lives and family!!

Victory for all of us!!

View: https://youtu.be/0BNejY1e9ik

View: https://youtu.be/vPktBJzi88g

View: https://youtu.be/iiByqenA9tE
 

cm-devpreneur

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Thank you for starting this conversation.

When it comes to starting up my own business sometimes I feel I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. I say I wouldn't have it any other way. The truth is I live in constant fear that I am not good enough to run a business but what's the alternative?

I've had a few jobs and it's always the same story. I am very excited at the start, the reality sinks in, the longing to be on my path, doing things my way, and before I know it I'm sinking into a depression. Feeling trapped.

Emotionally I have always been a mess, being self-employed helps. Because at least I don't have to drag myself to work even when I feel like curling up in a ball and crying. I can take a couple of hours to get my head straight and I can structure my day in a way that works better for me.

I am learning to overcome all the things that scare me and make me depressed because I am on this journey. I am becoming a person of value and that makes me feel like my life has purpose.

I am no longer seduced by the safety net of a job even though I could use it to be fair. But the slowlane promises you some security but there is more to life. When I die I don't want to say I played it safe, I never used my credit card. I never went hungry, I saved 10% of my pay cheque every month, I paid my mortgage off before I turned 50.

Those things are all great but if you are called to do something else I think life is simply not worth it if you don't answer that call. So here I am, having one of those days when I feel like a total fraud. But if I go back I will always feel like this and never become the best version of me. Instead I will slowly die inside, haunted by regrets of what could have been.

Play it safe, or take the insane choice that feels way out of my league and beyond my emotional strengh. F*ck it! You only live once. Truth I'll be depressed either way but I bet it'll feel a bit better knowing at least I did things my way.
 

cm-devpreneur

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Thank you for starting this conversation.

When it comes to starting up my own business sometimes I feel I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. I say I wouldn't have it any other way. The truth is I live in constant fear that I am not good enough to run a business but what's the alternative?

I've had a few jobs and it's always the same story. I am very excited at the start, the reality sinks in, the longing to be on my path, doing things my way, and before I know it I'm sinking into a depression. Feeling trapped.

Emotionally I have always been a mess, being self-employed helps. Because at least I don't have to drag myself to work even when I feel like curling up in a ball and crying. I can take a couple of hours to get my head straight and I can structure my day in a way that works better for me.

I am learning to overcome all the things that scare me and make me depressed because I am on this journey. I am becoming a person of value and that makes me feel like my life has purpose.

I am no longer seduced by the safety net of a job even though I could use it to be fair. But the slowlane promises you some security but there is more to life. When I die I don't want to say I played it safe, I never used my credit card. I never went hungry, I saved 10% of my pay cheque every month, I paid my mortgage off before I turned 50.

Those things are all great but if you are called to do something else I think life is simply not worth it if you don't answer that call. So here I am, having one of those days when I feel like a total fraud. But if I go back I will always feel like this and never become the best version of me. Instead I will slowly die inside, haunted by regrets of what could have been.

Play it safe, or take the insane choice that feels way out of my league and beyond my emotional strengh. f*ck it! You only live once. Truth I'll be depressed either way but I bet it'll feel a bit better knowing at least I did things my way.


I realised perhaps this was too negative so I will add something a bit more positive:

I used to be a lot more unstable when I was younger and have really bad depression. At my lowest point I was crying for no reason, barely able to keep my head up.

What worked for me personally:
- Therapy and support from my family. They were just there and didn't judge me.
- Exercise everyday. Even if it was just for one minute.
- Listen to inspirational podcasts - personally I listened to Knowledge for Men, Tony Robbins and some Mel Robbins YouTube videos
- Patience. It's a process and it takes time
- Have a reason for your life. Most pressure comes from other people's expectations. When you let go of all that and decide for yourself what's most important to you. You can pursue it at your own pace. It takes time to shake off people's expectations, it's something I'm still working on personally
- Remember you will die one day. Never forget that moment. You don't want to have any regrets on that day. And the small stuff is not going to matter. Did your businesses never make a penny? Did you build an empire? Is that what's going to matter to you in that moment or is there something else that will be more important in that moment? That's the thing you neeed to find out for yourself and make that your life mission
- I've come a long way with my depression, for me, depression has always been something I can spot a mile away. I can tell when I'm starting to head in that direction. If you ignore the signs, you get closer and closer until you fall in. But if you don't take action you'll need help. Having your life's mission helps you spot the signs early on IMO
- What could be more important than enjoying your life. If you need help, just go for it. Find a therapist who gets you and speak with them as often or as little as you want

Also here is a free course on happiness and well-being you might find helpful - The Science of Well-Being
 
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VentureVoyager

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Guys, have any of you tried antidepressants? Did they help?

I have been prescribed Dulsevia (Cymbalta/Duloxetine - it's a SNRI type) twice, but I'm still super hestitant to take it.
Looks like the side effects can be truly horryfying.

I would love to hear your personal stories. After 3 months of a pretty nasty depressive episode I'm feeling really confused as to what to resort to.
 

WJK

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Guys, have any of you tried antidepressants? Did they help?

I have been prescribed Dulsevia (Cymbalta/Duloxetine - it's a SNRI type) twice, but I'm still super hestitant to take it.
Looks like the side effects can be truly horryfying.

I would love to hear your personal stories. After 3 months of a pretty nasty depressive episode I'm feeling really confused as to what to resort to.
Exercise and change your life... You're getting a message that you need change...
 

Jon L

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Guys, have any of you tried antidepressants? Did they help?

I have been prescribed Dulsevia (Cymbalta/Duloxetine - it's a SNRI type) twice, but I'm still super hestitant to take it.
Looks like the side effects can be truly horryfying.

I would love to hear your personal stories. After 3 months of a pretty nasty depressive episode I'm feeling really confused as to what to resort to.
For some people, antidepressants can be really good. For me, I've tried almost all the various types of antidepressants. One of them made me suicidal. It was horrible. Several made me really tired. One of them worked amazingly well for a week and then quit working. One worked quite well, but gave me side effects that I still experience, 15 years later.

Even with my negative experience, I don't regret trying them. I'd advise you to try them, BUT ... keep in close contact with your doctor. If you experience a bad reaction to the drug, it won't be obvious to you that the drug is the cause. I'd even ask a friend to check in with you every couple days to ask if you're having a bad reaction to the drug (suicidal thoughts, greater depression, etc)

I would not recommend that you just take drugs without also going to a therapist trained to help people with depression. You need to develop better habits of thinking. Drugs won't help with that. You have to have professional guidance.
 
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VentureVoyager

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Exercise and change your life... You're getting a message that you need change...
Well, I do exercise.
I know that I need to change my life in many aspects (business mostly), but that's the problem with depression - you either don't know what to change or how to change it, or you just don't have any power or motivation to do so.

It's like an internal voice saying "Imma F*ck up my life and you can't do shit about it, I don't even like you" or doing anything with a 30 kg weight tied up to your neck.

One of them worked amazingly well for a week and then quit working. One worked quite well, but gave me side effects that I still experience, 15 years later.
Whaaat?
May I ask what's the side effects exactly? And what was the drug? Or maybe you can write me a PM.

I mean, if the worst outcome was feeling like crap for a month or drugs simply not working, I would try them, because why not. But that's exactly what I'm afraid of. I've heard so many horror stories, eg. about Cymbalta, as in people experiencing totally horrible side effects for years or forever...
but then:

Even with my negative experience, I don't regret trying them. I'd advise you to try them,
How does the above relate to this? I mean, you write that you still have side effects after 15 freaking years, and then that even the ones that used to work suddenly lost their effect.

Why bother and risk your physical (and ironically, also mental) health?

I would not recommend that you just take drugs without also going to a therapist trained to help people with depression.
I would never ever think to even try drugs without trying therapy first. I have very bad experiences with the medical world, by the way, and unfortunately it's a rich experience.

I've been on therapy for more than a year now and it is indeed a tremendous help. The fact alone that you can show your darkest side to a professional and just talk to someone without feeling guilty about it is a big thing. But it goes way beyond that.

Even the sole discovery of how my parents and my family f*cked up my mind when I was a kid and teenager, how they mutilated my emotional world and my self esteem (now my self esteem is overly high and super low at the very same time, go figure). That was a hell of a trip and it made me learn A LOT about myself, my reactions, etc.
But I still haven't learned how to deal with my oceans of anxiety, especially in periods of life transition.

E.g now it feels like my business is sinking and in this state I'm in, when it's difficult to even get out of bed before 11 AM sometimes, fix myself a simple meal or stick to any kind of schedule - it's ten times harder to think about new business and what I could do ...and even less so to believe in myself or take important life decisions.

This is my ...6th? depressive episode and so I'm kind of used to the darkness and learned how to navigate in it, and as today I started feeling slightly better, I'm hoping to avoid drugs another time (have never used them so far).

The question is if it's worth it.
Maybe I would have been 10x happier and effective person on drugs?

But I don't know if the risk is worth it. Obviously, any psychiatrist will tell you not to worry and "take this chance that science gives us". Nobody will tell you about side effects 15 years after quitting a drug.

If a drug messes you up beyond repair, they won't really care. It's not like they will feed you or house you.
 
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WJK

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I had an excellent therapist who told me that I was the perfect candidate to have depression. I asked if I should slow down so I'd have the time to get depressed. He laughed. That was a long time ago. When I do have those moments, I know it's time to look my life over and create some changes. I usually find a "sticking point" that I have been ignoring.

Routine is very helpful. You won't find me in bed at 11 AM. I go to bed at the same time each night and I get up at the same time every morning. I must conduct a meeting with my crew every morning 5 days per week to get them out and working on my properties. People are depending on me. So, I open my office and I get started for the day.

Also, my dog always needs me first thing in the morning. She knows when it's time to go out and when it's time to eat. She's my 80-pound service dog with a loud voice and persistent ways.

Every morning I write down what I'm grateful for that day. Then I write down what inspires me.

I have a list of things and people for whom I'm grateful. Those people have helped me and stood behind me when life was pretty bleak. Things? I have a very comfortable life these days. My home is cozy and my belly is full. Inspiration? If nothing else, I'm inspired that the sun came up just like usual. Some day, things just go right or feel right. And the people around me are inspiring. I get to write all that down. There's a comfort in those two exercises.

But, here's a tip. When I feel bad, I set the timer. I give myself 5 minutes to feel the feeling. I try to look at it from every angle. I let that feeling wash over me and I try to look into its eyes. I try to understand it. When the timer goes off, I get up and go on with my day. I don't try to deny or denigrate the feeling. It's a messenger that is sent for a reason.

These moments have given me some of my best insights. When I went to law school, I found it depressing and an unhappy moment. I decided by the end of the first year that I didn't want to be an attorney. I finished my J.D. -- since I was there. And, no, I didn't become an attorney. When we were graduating, everyone was telling me what they were going to do with their new law career. I was in my early 40s with grown children. I told them I was going to be a prima ballerina. I can't tell you how they were shocked at my answer. And no, I never practiced law. By that point, I already had a good-sized practice as an expert witness in real estate matters. I did better than my attorneys who hired me. Yes, I used my degree, but not how the university had planned it. The dark feelings propelled me in a different direction.
 

VentureVoyager

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Routine is very helpful. You won't find me in bed at 11 AM. I go to bed at the same time each night and I get up at the same time every morning.
I do appreciate your advice, but that's the problem. It all sounds reasonable and good, but when I'm depressed I simply CAN'T do it. It's really like telling someone with broken legs to just go and take a walk.

I feel dead all mornings, with no energy and zero contentration. It takes hours to get myself to simplest tasks. I have important stuff pending, like sending tax documents to my accountant since 2 months now. Just can't do it. Feel almost like learning to read Chinese in the dark.

Then at night I'm too energized and can't sleep. And then I wake up tired and the cycle repeats itself.

And yes, I exercise, take supplements, eat healthy diet, meditate, don't do drugs, don't party and all this schoolbook stuff.

I always aim to be disciplined when I'm not depressed and then I usually can do it, as well as be regular with gratitude journaling etc, but when it kicks in, I'm a zombie with concentration of a mentally challenged person...it's like turning into a different person. That's why I'm even considering drugs in the first place. I wouldn't otherwise.

When it comes to changing something in life, I fully agree. But oftentimes it requires big amounts of focus and energy that's simply not there when one is depressed. If you find it hard to focus for even 10 minutes, or get out of bed, how can you build a new business? It's difficult even for healthy people.

Also, when you're depressed, absolutely nothing inspires you. And nothing interests you anymore. I used to love music production and now I get tired and bored after 2 minutes of getting into it.

I remember my last episode, about 1.5 yrs ago, when I couldn't get out of bed for 2 weeks.
I tried thinking about a change, and would go through 100 different ideas, including creating a "perfect life" - being a multimillionaire, living in my dream house, having impact, freedom to travel, perfect body, health, beautiful, smart and supportive wife. And all I could feel was "i'm tired, leave me alone, I don't care".

I know that in theory I can get out of it, because I used to before, 5 or 6 times. I just don't know if it's worth wasting another 2-3 months or more. I already lost like 1-2 or more years of my life to depression.
 
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WJK

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I do appreciate your advice, but that's the problem. It all sounds reasonable and good, but when I'm depressed I simply CAN'T do it. It's really like telling someone with broken legs to just go and take a walk.

I feel dead all mornings, with no energy and zero contentration. It takes hours to get myself to simplest tasks. I have important stuff pending, like sending tax documents to my accountant since 2 months now. Just can't do it. Feel almost like learning to read Chinese in the dark.

Then at night I'm too energized and can't sleep. And then I wake up tired and the cycle repeats itself.

And yes, I exercise, take supplements, eat healthy diet, meditate, don't do drugs, don't party and all this schoolbook stuff.

I always aim to be disciplined when I'm not depressed and then I usually can do it, as well as be regular with gratitude journaling etc, but when it kicks in, I'm a zombie with concentration of a mentally challenged person...it's like turning into a different person. That's why I'm even considering drugs in the first place. I wouldn't otherwise.

When it comes to changing something in life, I fully agree. But oftentimes it requires big amounts of focus and energy that's simply not there when one is depressed. If you find it hard to focus for even 10 minutes, or get out of bed, how can you build a new business? It's difficult even for healthy people.

Also, when you're depressed, absolutely nothing inspires you. And nothing interests you anymore. I used to love music production and now I get tired and bored after 2 minutes of getting into it.

I remember my last episode, about 1.5 yrs ago, when I couldn't get out of bed for 2 weeks.
I tried thinking about a change, and would go through 100 different ideas, including creating a "perfect life" - being a multimillionaire, living in my dream house, having impact, freedom to travel, perfect body, health, beautiful, smart and supportive wife. And all I could feel was "i'm tired, leave me alone, I don't care".

I know that in theory I can get out of it, because I used to before, 5 or 6 times. I just don't know if it's worth wasting another 2-3 months or more. I already lost like 1-2 or more years of my life to depression.
Have you thought about re-writing your story? Or how about your definition of depression and its effects? Did you eat or go to the bathroom during those 2 weeks? You must have gotten up for something! Everyone who is human has "those" moments. The question is how long we let them last.

You're telling me that I don't understand. I wasn’t going to explain -- but…
I have serious health issues that I've had since I was a teenager. I could hate the person who caused these problems by hurting me when I was just a little, defenseless kid. I could just give up and let myself die. I was so sick when I was young that I spent a year in bed and then another 6 months in bed. I thought the tough part was going to be the kidney problems and all the issues that went with that. It wasn't. The tough part was to put together a new life when I survived.

Now, I have good days and I have bad days -- BUT I still have days. I have outlived my doctor's prediction 41 years so far. I celebrate every birthday with zest and glee. I don't let myself now get down for more than a day or two with the physical problems. Yes, not feeling well and living with chronic pain is NOT what I would have chosen for myself. Most of the time, I'm able to keep getting one foot in front of the other. I can't run, but I can walk. Every morning I wake up and give thanks for another day no matter how I'm feeling that day. Time is the only asset that you can never get back or replace once you've spent it. And I have truly lived every moment of these many years.

BUT, here's the biggest thing that I have learned. There are always people who have it worse than me. I try to notice other people's pain and struggles. This life is not just about me. It's a shared experience. Most people around me don't know that I'm still struggling with serious health issues. They don't need to know. Only my family and close friends are really aware. And that's the way I want it to be. I have learned that feelings follow actions. So my goal is to always be cheerful and always make my world a better place. I work at it every day. If you get out of your bed and help someone, you will feel much better and so will they. I could use my health as the perfect excuse to get depressed, but I have way too much grit for that!

I'm here at my office late getting some paperwork done. It's getting late and I must get this stuff done so I can go home. My service dog is hungry and ready to go home for the night. And I'm driving a close friend (a senior citizen) to Anchorage tomorrow to get her dentures repaired. She can't eat very well without her upper teeth -- they need to see her along with the broken dentures. Anchorage is too far for her to drive there alone. We'll make it a great adventure. But, in order to go, I must have these checks written and banking done...

I wanted to send you a heartfelt reply to your post. You are suffering and I feel that. Now, get up and change it. Do something! Help someone! Make something! Listen to some upbeat music and sing along. Take a shower and towel yourself off with vigor. Cry hard for 5 minutes and then laugh at yourself in the mirror. Think of how handsome you'll look. Walk a dog -- even if you must borrow one. Tutor a kid who needs your help. Mow a senior's lawn. Do your dishes. Make your bed so you don't get back into it -- (you've made yourself way too comfortable in your bad feelings). Study something hard to learn. Volunteer to answer phones -- like at a suicide prevention line. Do something! I'm telling you to re-write your story and change your self-talk. Even if you must through gritted teeth. You're worth the effort.
 

sparechange

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Nov 11, 2016
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I do appreciate your advice, but that's the problem. It all sounds reasonable and good, but when I'm depressed I simply CAN'T do it. It's really like telling someone with broken legs to just go and take a walk.

I feel dead all mornings, with no energy and zero contentration. It takes hours to get myself to simplest tasks. I have important stuff pending, like sending tax documents to my accountant since 2 months now. Just can't do it. Feel almost like learning to read Chinese in the dark.

Then at night I'm too energized and can't sleep. And then I wake up tired and the cycle repeats itself.

And yes, I exercise, take supplements, eat healthy diet, meditate, don't do drugs, don't party and all this schoolbook stuff.

I always aim to be disciplined when I'm not depressed and then I usually can do it, as well as be regular with gratitude journaling etc, but when it kicks in, I'm a zombie with concentration of a mentally challenged person...it's like turning into a different person. That's why I'm even considering drugs in the first place. I wouldn't otherwise.

When it comes to changing something in life, I fully agree. But oftentimes it requires big amounts of focus and energy that's simply not there when one is depressed. If you find it hard to focus for even 10 minutes, or get out of bed, how can you build a new business? It's difficult even for healthy people.

Also, when you're depressed, absolutely nothing inspires you. And nothing interests you anymore. I used to love music production and now I get tired and bored after 2 minutes of getting into it.

I remember my last episode, about 1.5 yrs ago, when I couldn't get out of bed for 2 weeks.
I tried thinking about a change, and would go through 100 different ideas, including creating a "perfect life" - being a multimillionaire, living in my dream house, having impact, freedom to travel, perfect body, health, beautiful, smart and supportive wife. And all I could feel was "i'm tired, leave me alone, I don't care".

I know that in theory I can get out of it, because I used to before, 5 or 6 times. I just don't know if it's worth wasting another 2-3 months or more. I already lost like 1-2 or more years of my life to depression.

Go volunteer at a homeless shelter or at a kids hospital where you can see real depression.

A few days ago, maybe last week I felt like crying, not because I was sad myself, but sad for someone else. I'm still young and healthy (luckily) and have avoided so far breaking my arm, leg or whatever and saw an older gentleman without a leg, and not to long ago a burn victim in the Vancouver area pan handling for money outside without legs aswell and messed up hands.

Seeing crap like that makes me feel horrible anytime I complain about anything, I'm not a millionaire and my life isn't exactly what I want it to be.. BUT I have my health, my limbs, and have the ability to take care of myself.

I'd even challenge you, whatever depression you think you have, go out to the ghetto where people sleep at night and die, grab a bottle of your favorite drink and share it with some people on the street, listen to some real tragedies, haven't done this for a while myself but the last time I went out giving away candies and stuff, watched fire crews pickup people that overdosed and died on the cold streets of downtown Vancouver, when you think your life is bad you don't even have a clue. Just you having the brains to be on the forum and embracing this unscripted thing puts you ahead of like 99% of the population IMO. Shoutout to MJ, frigging awesome man.
 

thechosen1

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Booking up weekends with events to sell products, traveling places alone where I don’t know anyone, working my a$$ off and ignoring the advice and opinions of peers... it’s a very lonely and difficult road.

In fact, I’ve ended up pushing away a lot of close people in my life because I felt they were getting in the way of my goals... not an ideal thing to do, especially with this topic in mind.

I don’t know how entrepreneurs do it but we do.

What are things that help y’all (besides prescription drugs) stay on track mentally?
 
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WJK

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Booking up weekends with events to sell products, traveling places alone where I don’t know anyone, working my a$$ off and ignoring the advice and opinions of peers... it’s a very lonely and difficult road.

In fact, I’ve ended up pushing away a lot of close people in my life because I felt they were getting in the way of my goals... not an ideal thing to do, especially with this topic in mind.

I don’t know how entrepreneurs do it but we do.

What are things that help y’all (besides prescription drugs) stay on track mentally?
What helps is to know the "why" concerning what you are doing. Some of us have always marched to a different drummer...
 

VentureVoyager

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Go volunteer at a homeless shelter or at a kids hospital where you can see real depression.
OK, so you are suggesting that my depression is not "real"?

With all due of respect, because I appreciate your opinion and input, but this is exactly the things that you should NEVER say to a depressed person in your sourroundings.

By saying the typical "others have it worse than you", "it's not even depression!", "how dare you cry when kids in africa..." "get yourself together!" you might one day push somebody with major depression episode to suicide. DO NOT do it.
It's like saying "naaah, you don't have a real problem, haha. What a whiney person you are!". You won't get far by not even taking other person's problem into account, and trying to cancel it or otherwise deem it unworthy, blown out of proportion or imagined.

If you don't believe me and think that I'm a whiny little princess, then ask a psychotherapist or psychiatrist, someone licenced, with decades of experience under their belt.

I'd even challenge you, whatever depression you think you have, go out to the ghetto where people sleep at night and die, grab a bottle of your favorite drink and share it with some people on the street, listen to some real tragedies, haven't done this for a while myself but the last time I went out giving away candies and stuff, watched fire crews pickup people that overdosed and died on the cold streets of downtown Vancouver, when you think your life is bad you don't even have a clue.
You are assuming that I never left my country and never seen the poor and disabled?
I've been to 49 countries and lived in 9. I've seen poverty and suffering you probably can't even imagine, for example, when I lived in Cambodia.

I don't want to sound twatty here, or do a bidding on who's seen worse, but you seem to be very ignorant when it comes to depression, like most of society. "YEAH JUST GET OVER IT, OTHERS HAVE IT WORSE THAN YOU! YOU'RE WEAK! LOOK AT ME, I DO THIS AND THIS AND THAT EVERY DAY AND I HAVE 5 KIDS AND 3 DOGS AND YOU DON't EVEN....!"
How is it helping and how is it not condescending? I understand the good intent behind it, but still it's made of total ignorance. Depression is not feeling down. It's a mental and emotional sickness.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SupVQ__PMg



Also, I never said that my life is bad. That's the problem. It's not bad objectively. I'm in a very good situation and I'm grateful for it.

But I still feel bad way too often due to many emotional issues.

Take a look at Chester Benington, Chris Cornell, Robin Williams. Do you think their lives were bad? No, they had everything.
But they still suicided.

So, it's not about me, I will be fine, but when you come across a person with diagnosed major depression next time, don't start with these.

Also, do you think you can make somebody feel better by pointing out that others have it worse? Most depressed people are very empathic. Whenever I see that others have it worse, and how f*** up this world really is, it gets me even more depressed.

I'm not the type of person to feel happier because there are homeless people in Vancouver, and I'm in a good situation, sorry. On the opposite. I feel bad for them and for the condition of our societies and the entire planet.
I could be a billionaire and still think about the poor and the homeless, and not being able to help them all.

Just you having the brains to be on the forum and embracing this unscripted thing puts you ahead of like 99% of the population IMO. Shoutout to MJ, frigging awesome man.
That's right.
I generally AGREE than some part of depression come from too much self-focus, and so, for example, helping animals in shelters or working the homeless might help. But it's not the cure and depression is not caused by living in a bubble and never getting to see that others have it worse, man. Really.

Suicide and depression

  • Two-thirds of those who commit suicide struggle with depression. (American Association of Suicidology, 2009)
  • Of those diagnosed with depression, 1% of women and 7% of men commit suicide. (American Association of Suicidology, 2009)
  • The risk of suicide is about 20 times greater among those diagnosed with major depression in comparison to those without major depression. (American Association of Suicidology, 2009)
  • Suicide is one of the leading causes of death for 15- to 19-year-olds. (Centers for Disease Control, 2017)
  • Reports of suicide attempts among college students increased from 0.7% to 1.8% from 2013 to 2018. (Journal of Adolescent Health, 2019)
Additional facts about suicide in the US
The age-adjusted suicide rate in 2019 was 13.93 per 100,000 individuals. The rate of suicide is highest in middle-aged white men. In 2019, men died by suicide 3.63x more often than women.
On average, there are 130 suicides per day.


"BUT IT WASN'T REAL DEPRESSION MAN THEY WERE NOT HOMELESS AND THEY HAD HANDS AND LEGS AND THEY HAD GOOD JOBS!!!!"

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihabkxaGqFs
 
Last edited:

VentureVoyager

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Booking up weekends with events to sell products, traveling places alone where I don’t know anyone, working my a$$ off and ignoring the advice and opinions of peers... it’s a very lonely and difficult road.

In fact, I’ve ended up pushing away a lot of close people in my life because I felt they were getting in the way of my goals... not an ideal thing to do, especially with this topic in mind.

I don’t know how entrepreneurs do it but we do.

What are things that help y’all (besides prescription drugs) stay on track mentally?
I feel ya. I live something like that too.

What is really helping me, even tough it looks woo-woo and a bit weird, is EFT.
Just try it:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHXRHbDVAPE


It really does help.
He has thousands of other videos, and you can address your biggest issues invidually, as depression is a complex problem. I usually find them on therapy (like the internal criticist, low self esteem, lack of self-trust, self abandonment etc) and then tap them out every single day.

There's also this guy, some people say that his method is faster and easier, but I haven't tried it yet, as for me it appears to be more complicated and there's no ready scripts to follow:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV6Ip1PkIFE


This guy also has a free course on his website, if you want to get into it.


Other than that (if you're not yet doing it):
1) Regular regime (going to bed and waking up at the same time, more or less)
2) Meditation
3) Psychotherapy, for sure. It wasn't before last year that I discovered how my family screwed me up when I was a kid, which helped me understand myself and my actions (and inactions) better. It's a very deep and very useful proccess.
4) If you keep coming back to same places, try to start forming your social circles and tribes. You will feel that more and more new friendships are not aligned with your new life anymore. Do anything you can to replace those with new ones. It's super important. Loneliness takes a toll. I'm working on this one now.

5) Some say that Wim Hoff method helps a lot. I've seen some results.

6) supplements. Cordyceps, Vit D3K2 5000 IU daily in droplets, vit B complex. omega 3, turmeric+ginger etc. CBD oil. Lithium Ororate for anxiety. You can DM me if you want, maybe I can recommend something according to my experience.
7) Morita Therapy
 
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WJK

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OK, so you are suggesting that my depression is not "real"?

With all due of respect, because I appreciate your opinion and input, but this is exactly the things that you should NEVER say to a depressed person in your sourroundings.

By saying the typical "others have it worse than you", "it's not even depression!", "how dare you cry when kids in africa..." "get yourself together!" you might one day push somebody with major depression episode to suicide. DO NOT do it.
It's like saying "naaah, you don't have a real problem, haha. What a whiney person you are!". You won't get far by not even taking other person's problem into account, and trying to cancel it or otherwise deem it unworthy, blown out of proportion or imagined.

If you don't believe me and think that I'm a whiny little princess, then ask a psychotherapist or psychiatrist, someone licenced, with decades of experience under their belt.


You are assuming that I never left my country and never seen the poor and disabled?
I've been to 49 countries and lived in 9. I've seen poverty and suffering you probably can't even imagine, for example, when I lived in Cambodia.

I don't want to sound twatty here, or do a bidding on who's seen worse, but you seem to be very ignorant when it comes to depression, like most of society. "YEAH JUST GET OVER IT, OTHERS HAVE IT WORSE THAN YOU! YOU'RE WEAK! LOOK AT ME, I DO THIS AND THIS AND THAT EVERY DAY AND I HAVE 5 KIDS AND 3 DOGS AND YOU DON't EVEN....!"
How is it helping and how is it not condescending? I understand the good intent behind it, but still it's made of total ignorance. Depression is not feeling down. It's a mental and emotional sickness.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SupVQ__PMg



Also, I never said that my life is bad. That's the problem. It's not bad objectively. I'm in a very good situation and I'm grateful for it.

But I still feel bad way too often due to many emotional issues.

Take a look at Chester Benington, Chris Cornell, Robin Williams. Do you think their lives were bad? No, they had everything.
But they still suicided.

So, it's not about me, I will be fine, but when you come across a person with diagnosed major depression next time, don't start with these.

Also, do you think you can make somebody feel better by pointing out that others have it worse? Most depressed people are very empathic. Whenever I see that others have it worse, and how f*** up this world really is, it gets me even more depressed.

I'm not the type of person to feel happier because there are homeless people in Vancouver, and I'm in a good situation, sorry. On the opposite. I feel bad for them and for the condition of our societies and the entire planet.
I could be a billionaire and still think about the poor and the homeless, and not being able to help them all.


That's right.
I generally AGREE than some part of depression come from too much self-focus, and so, for example, helping animals in shelters or working the homeless might help. But it's not the cure and depression is not caused by living in a bubble and never getting to see that others have it worse, man. Really.

Suicide and depression

  • Two-thirds of those who commit suicide struggle with depression. (American Association of Suicidology, 2009)
  • Of those diagnosed with depression, 1% of women and 7% of men commit suicide. (American Association of Suicidology, 2009)
  • The risk of suicide is about 20 times greater among those diagnosed with major depression in comparison to those without major depression. (American Association of Suicidology, 2009)
  • Suicide is one of the leading causes of death for 15- to 19-year-olds. (Centers for Disease Control, 2017)
  • Reports of suicide attempts among college students increased from 0.7% to 1.8% from 2013 to 2018. (Journal of Adolescent Health, 2019)
Additional facts about suicide in the US
The age-adjusted suicide rate in 2019 was 13.93 per 100,000 individuals. The rate of suicide is highest in middle-aged white men. In 2019, men died by suicide 3.63x more often than women.
On average, there are 130 suicides per day.


"BUT IT WASN'T REAL DEPRESSION MAN THEY WERE NOT HOMELESS AND THEY HAD HANDS AND LEGS AND THEY HAD GOOD JOBS!!!!"

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihabkxaGqFs
What I'm hearing you say is that your depression and suffering are real. You are struggling to find meaning and purpose in your life. You are saying that you have seen other people's suffering, so you know what it looks like to see others hurt. You are angry that other people are just blowing off your pain and your struggles. Am I hearing you right?

If my assumptions are true, then your crisis has a real element of danger for you and at least a twinkle of a golden lining of opportunity. I know it sounds trite, but hang in here with me...

You've looked up the stats for suicides so that option is obvious on your mind. That's a situation for a professional mental health doctor. From my layperson's perspective, I can tell you that everyone I have ever know has entertained similar thoughts at one time or another. it's part of the human condition. Having the thought versus doing the deed are sure two different things. In my mind, I assume that suicide is taking the easy way out of my current situation. But, taking that action breaks my rule to always have a back door in any decision. It's way too permanent for me. I just keep telling myself that this too shall pass. And it does -- in its own good time.

My life has had many seasons -- moments of depression I consider to be my winters. I like to hurry up the process through action. Getting one foot in front of the other is my jumping-off point. Staying in bed is NOT an option. It's OK to not be OK. It's NOT OK to live there. I'm saying that allowing yourself to feel your emotions is totally necessary. Wallowing in those feelings to the point where you act out is unacceptable. That includes lashing out at the people around you and hurting yourself. So, I make myself very busy. I put on the "happy" music and I get moving. The fake it until you make works for me. Feelings follow actions. I make myself act cheerful. I find someone to help -- as much for me as for them. I do a yucky job that I've been putting off. I take a shower and sing as loud as I can. I do something that gets the endorphins moving in my brain. It works for me.

Then I write myself a letter or I journal a whole bunch. I put on my gumshoes and my Fedora hat to get into my detective mode. I know that depression is a signal to me that something in my life needs to change. And I have a rule for that too. I don't make big changes or 180 degree turns -- that would be shooting myself in the foot. I tweak things a little bit at a time. I try applying those little tweaks one at a time. Then I try them in combination. My goal is to find that little magic trigger that makes me feel at least a little bit better -- and that's all about breaking the cycle and finding my springtime.

I hope I helped you at least a little bit. Now, I must go back to work...
 

Black_Dragon43

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I will preface this post by saying that I am a retard, and everything I say here is stupid, and nobody should listen to me because I don't know what I'm talking about. I am not a psychiatrist nor a mental health professional and if you have mental disorders, then you should seek out a professional therapist, and you should definitely not listen to my stupid opinion. In fact, I advise you not to read my post. I do not intend to render advice to anyone (medical or otherwise), and I am not in a position to do so, and by continuing to read this, you acknowledge not to take any advice from me and to ignore everything that I have to say, because it is stupid and gibberish.

Now that we have universally acknowledged that, it's time to move onto the more important business:
this is exactly the things that you should NEVER say to a depressed person in your sourroundings.

By saying the typical "others have it worse than you", "it's not even depression!", "how dare you cry when kids in africa..." "get yourself together!" you might one day push somebody with major depression episode to suicide. DO NOT do it.
It's like saying "naaah, you don't have a real problem, haha. What a whiney person you are!". You won't get far by not even taking other person's problem into account, and trying to cancel it or otherwise deem it unworthy, blown out of proportion or imagined.
Well, the things you should "NEVER" say to a depressed person are EXACTLY the things they should be told, but will REFUSE to listen to, and "act out" in protest to hearing them. That's EXACTLY why they act out... it's like the person covering his ears, desperate not to hear the truth! And when someone shouts the truth in his ears, they lose it, and "act out". Hence the term snowflake, because they melt under pressure.

That's why they're depressed. Because they refuse to accept an essential part of their reality. They are literarily and figuratively "covering their ears" by being depressed. And everything else that they do - the pills, the medication, the therapy, the EFT, the bullshit... it's a distraction from their refusal to accept reality - a decision, to go on being depressed. And it's NOT going to help them AT ALL in the long run, because it distracts from the core of the problem: refusal to accept reality.

Until they face the music and ACCEPT the pain, willingly, in fact, bear the pain, their depression will not lift. "Uhhh I don't feel like getting out of bed"... "F*ck it, do I want to keep being this pussy who stays in bed letting life slip by?! F*ck that, I want to be a BEAST who overcomes the pain *jumps out*! "

THAT'S the solution.

You don't need to feel better to start taking action. You just need to F*cking get moving. And you need to develop pride in growth - ie, in taking action DESPITE how you feel. I feel like shit? That's great, my victory once I take action will be even greater. I will be a real beast who cannot be stomped down or put down by my feelings.
If you don't believe me and think that I'm a whiny little princess, then ask a psychotherapist or psychiatrist, someone licenced, with decades of experience under their belt.
Who? A guy like Jordan Peterson whom you linked to previously, who has been depressed for his entire mother F*cking life, has been on SSRIs, benzos and a whole host of other medications, and has personally asked their doctor to increase his dosage to very high levels to the point that he almost got killed by them because he "needed it" to cope with the stress? Would you go to learn swimming from a guy who has tried his entire life to swim and failed? Or would you rather seek out a BEAST like Michael Phelps, and learn how he swims?

Jordan Petereson is a smart thinker, but he is ambivalent about his own philosophy, and often does not put it in practice. He is not someone to learn from things other than theory imo (at which he's very good, I listen and follow him as well). I mean, in 40+ years he could not cure his own depression, and he's a F*cking therapist? Really?! What sort of accountability is that?

If these psychotherapists and psychiatrists are so good, WHY do they FAIL to cure themselves, AND their patients? WHY do they have patients who are depressed for 20, 30, many 40 F*cking years? Why are THEY themselves depressed for 20, 30, 40 years?

It's because there is ZERO accountability. NONE. Many of these therapists are f*cked up themselves, and they keep helping people for 30-40 years, with basically NO results. NONE.

And I disagree with Dan Pena about a lot of business things, but in terms of mindset and what he says about personal development, he is imo 100% right:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtWzbFu_S4Q&ab_channel=CreateQuantumWealth


So the first thing is to stop modeling failures. And start modeling people who were depressed, and have overcome it. Completely. Not kinda overcome it. But completely. They are cured. That's who you want to listen to.

Personally, and I don't recommend anyone else to adopt this attitude, I have very little trust of the medical profession as a whole. And especially of mental health professionals. If I had listened to my psychotherapist, I'd probably still be taking anxiety medication today. I took in all:
• SSRI (Lexapro - for 2 years)
• Benzo (lorazepam - for 1 year)
• Antipsychotic (Quetiapine - for 1.5 years or so)

Now guess what, I take nothing. And I've been taking nothing for like 8 years already. Built a successful business, got an apartment, building a family, you know, the good stuff.

The bottom line here is the following: depression, as many other mental illnesses, are to a large degree self-caused. Meaning that there is RESISTANCE from the patient in overcoming the illness, and that's exactly why they continue to be ill. And there is NOTHING anyone can do until the patient says "F*ck IT! I wanna change, whatever it takes, I will do. If you tell me to jump outta bed at 3 in the morning and go without sleep for 24 hours at a time, and that's what it takes to cure it, I will do it! I will not come to you with excuses, like I tried to get outta bed and failed. I don't care how F*cking painful it is, I'll do WHATEVER IT TAKES!!!!"

If the patient keeps coming up with excuses, acting out, and so on, then therapy can just "manage" them. A little trick, here and there, to keep them from acting out. That's all. But cure requires an effort of the will. A DECISION TO ACCEPT REALITY WHATEVER IT IS. Something has to change from the inside. And if you don't find that strength inside of you, well then, there is very little that anyone can do to help you.

You know, I have a pet theory of mine. I think that ultimately, when the shit hits the fan, the strength has to come from inside. If you cannot find that BEAST inside of you, that will simply not quit, no matter what, no matter how hard or how painful it gets, then you're f*cked. Nobody, and nothing can save you. No therapy, no drugs, nothing. It's also part of the reason why many, in the face of extreme pain, commit suicide. They do not find that inner beast that will keep them going. You know, that beast that made Rocky get up one more time in the movies when he was destroyed... That beast is not rational. And it's unrelenting. It can push you and make you do amazing things, things that you would think are impossible. That beast, is pure desire, pure thirst, pure hunger. When you can't find that beast, then you're in trouble. And it's not the kind of trouble, unfortunately, that someone can really help you with from the outside.

So the idea that there is some help that can come from the outside and save you, when you're depressed, is imo wrong. And it's nothing but another distraction, waiting for Godot to come and save you, and of course, he never comes. It's just a defense mechanism, a distraction, that you have conceived to cover your ears from what you do not want to face. It's this "not wanting to face" that drives people to both depression AND to suicide. If you're open to face ANYTHING, then you'd never kill yourself. There would be no reason to do it. The only reason is desire for escape. And the solution is to stop trying to escape the pain. Accept it. Acceptance is truly transformational. The Stoics used to say amor fati... love your fate, love your pain. Embrace it. Swallow it whole. Eat that frog. Overcome.
 
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