Here to destroy all your preconceived notions about college

[dknise]

I think there needs to be some kind of movement (and believe there will be within 5 to 10 years) where employers don't require the college degree from potential employees. Everytime you want to "change careers" you have to go into more debt for more targeted occupational training. It's crazy. Meanwhile, all these internet courses are popping up and people can learn a ton of stuff on their own.
Sooner or later the model is going to have to change to give people a chance to get a decent job.

The ultimate irony is that consumer's have the choice and ability to make change in the United States, they just choose not to and put the blame on others.

I think the revolution needs to change in students refusing to pay the current rates for a college education and demanding higher caliber professors than the majority of the ones in your average four year university today. Because the kids in high school probably won't recognize this or have enough experience to realize this, I think it's the responsibility of parents to do their due diligence. Paying three times the rate for a known poorer quality experience than existed 20 years ago, you'd think some of them would be advising their children or students otherwise.

Government backed student loans especially hurt the situation. It's yet another government induced bubble that's going to pop. By encouraging brand new, inexperienced adults to pay whatever the going rate is, there is nothing stopping from colleges continuing to raise their rates, and continuing to pay the faculty board and pres hundreds of thousands per year and in my state, 7 figures each. The way the US uses loans and insurance creates price insensitivity.

The value provided is simply not worth the value received. That is exactly why I think everyone should educate themselves. It's free or very affordable, you can learn from the best of the best in anything you learn, everything is practical, the pace of learning is not as fast as the slowest student it's as fast as you can go, and you're completely in control.

What JScott and others have continually talked about with doors opening because of a degree, that can only take you so far. Many of you have touted that it doesn't matter what you learn in college, what matters is how other's perceive you. Sorry, but that's not going to get you everywhere in life. I'd rather actually have the ability and knowledge to get the job done effectively with nobody backing me than the whole world backing me and completely unable to perform. If you have the skill set, you can go and do anything. End of story.

 

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[faromic]

With the seemingly over abundance of college educated, under employed population we have now, I don't see this happening. Employers have their pick right now and unless consumer demands increase I don't see this changing any time soon.

Good point. I'm not sure what the solution here is. It's a tough situation because more and more people are coming out of college without jobs. Maybe if the cost of college was lower like dknise suggested, the "risk" would be less. But that most likely won't change any time soon either.

Another thing I noticed at least around me is that very little of what you learn in formal college education is actually retained and even less applicable to "the real world". That's where people learning on their own comes in, but sadly many just settle.

 

[dknise]

Another thing I noticed at least around me is that very little of what you learn in formal college education is actually retained and even less applicable to "the real world". That's where people learning on their own comes in, but sadly many just settle.

Why do they settle? Many people believe they can't learn without paying for an education. It's instilled in us since high school and middle school.


ps. to support the artificial inflation of college tuition:
[video=youtube;AIcfMMVcYZg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIcfMMVcYZg&feature=related[/video]

 

[faromic]

I mean that instead of doing something about it they just "settle" and don't go back to school. It's also true many people don't believe they can learn. I've had conversations with cousins of mine where when I talk about how I want out of my job I don't learn anything and it's not fulfilling, he literally responds, "Deal with it, no one learns anything at their jobs, that's life".
That's what I mean by settling.

 

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[The-J]

My prediction: tuition prices are going to crash. Hard.

Soon, the student lending bubble will burst because students are going to schools they can't afford. Loan companies that are subsidized by the goverment will go kablooey when students can't pay back their loans.

Unless the government and the universities work together to curb tuition price increase, it's going to all blow up.

But they won't. To give you perspective, the president of NYU got paid $1.3 million in the year 2008. People are making profits and they don't want to stop.

</rant>

 

[dknise]

Unless the government and the universities work together to curb tuition price increase, it's going to all blow up.

But they won't. To give you perspective, the president of NYU got paid $1.3 million in the year 2008. People are making profits and they don't want to stop.

</rant>

Here in the US were making it so that it's a legal right to get yourself in life crippling debt for poor quality education.

I should make a chart over the last 50 years of the increase in college attendees here vs our world educational standing hahaha.

 

[Runum]

OK, I can concede that things need to change. However, I see the problem as one of responsibility.

I have talked to many families over the years about the education of their children. I contend that the education of a child is the parent's responsibility and they can choose to partner with someone or they can do it themselves. The majority choose to partner with the public education system paid for by tax dollars. When I state that view, most parents disagree, they say that it's the school's responsibility to educate the child. I then pose the question that what if the teacher is incompetent, who suffers? Of course, the child suffers. Then shouldn't the parent take a more proactive stance in the education of the child since that is a huge risk to take with their most precious offspring? Nope, they will not get involved.

The children learn from this attitude and carry it on to their children.

I agree, there are incompetent teachers and professors and they scare the hell out of me. But I see the main problem is the lack of authentic care and responsibility of the consumers. It's far easier to be lazy and do what comes easy.

 

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[LamboMP]

I think high school kids are old enough to make their own decisions. When I was 16, I sure in hell knew how much tuition was going to be, and the opportunity costs involved. Your 16-17 years old. Take some freaking responsibility for your own actions, and quit blaming other people that your in debt.

If you goto college, get yourself into 200K of debt for a career that pays maximum 70K in a lifetime, that's your own problem.

Blaming the teachers/professors isn't going to solve anything.

 

[Mike39]

I am coming in a little late on this argument and have been trying to avoid this thread because it is just 2 completely different opinions and nobody is going to budge on what they believe.

So here is my thoughts on college in relation to jobs, short and sweet.

A college degree used to put you "ahead" of others, it meant you had a passion to learn and a drive for further education. Now, college is the new highschool, you have to have a college education to be at the "norm". The problem with this is when EVERYONE goes to college so people feel they need to go to get a masters instead of a bachelors to get ahead, and soon it will be a doctorate (until the system collapse), it's a vicious cycle. People also still assume that college will put you ahead of others like it did in the past, and for the most part it will not, rather it may keep your head above water though. College is a bubble here in the U.S, when people don't have to pay for their education (so they think) and everyone can afford whatever college, the colleges drive up prices because someone can afford college whether it is 30k or 100k a year. College is a cash cow right now, but the system is not self sustaining, the bubble will pop here in the US, mark my words.

We all need to understand on this forum that not everyone wants to be an entrepreneur, some people want to become lawyers, doctors, engineers and many of those positions require a college degree, and that is perfectly O.K. Other people are just what I guess can best be referred to as cows, they are incapable of making decisions for themselves, they need a boss to tell them what to do, they need to be told when to shit, eat, and sleep, not all of the human population is as mentally independent as we all are on here. That is completely O.K. as well. After all we need employees to write our emails and schedule are appointments for us, if we all worked for ourselves, nobody would get anything done.

Why is someone without a college degree viewed negatively? Well, again, most people are not like you and I, many employers have the assumption that if you do not have a college degree, then you did not have the work ethic, passion, or brains to make it into a college (think high school dropout who wants to grow weed in his basement). Unfortunately, a large majority of people who don't go to college actually would fit into the above category, lazy, unmotivated and anyone like you and I who view college as a waste of time and resources sadly gets shoved under the rug and placed in that same category.

So is college good for you? For most people, yes, it allows them to feel "normal" and gives them the opportunity to fit in with the rest of the crowd. For entrepreneurs, my general opinion is that it is not incredibly helpful unless you are able to make connections or learn something at college that can help you leverage your situation, which is rare.

Is college good for society? Well if college had remained an institution that really put you ahead in life, and was not subsidized by the government, then yes I would say it would be good. As of now, college is toxic, college is doing more to destroy america than it is doing to help america, it is putting the idea into millions of teenagers heads that they are deserving of a 100k+ a year job, health insurance, and a 401k. Not everyone in the world can be a yuppie, at the end of the day, someone has got to clean the toilets and take out the trash, that's how capitalism works.

If everyone in the world drove a Lamborghini, would a Lamborghini still be an exotic car?

 

[The-J]

My aunt told me to stay in school because loans are 'just part of life'.

That's sad to me that a 27 year old could actually think that it's just 'part of life'. In her defense, she paid it off despite her art degree at a New York art school.

Paying off student loans is typically a 10-year ordeal and the payments are actually not usually that high. However, if you go to a private school with no aid, you're looking at $2000/month loan payments. That's problematic to personal financial growth.

 

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[andyredsox]

College for some won't work! For some, that's their only ticket to the world.

I think we need to teach kids the value of being productive early. They could decide if they want to pursue college or start their own business. Many people who are out of college are successful in their businesses, there are college graduates who clean cafeteria tables. Let's admit it. The world gives back what you offer it. No amount of education can bring you to prestige and glory.

Perseverance is still the key. Right?

 

[gazillionaire]

Lot of great advice in this thread, despite the OP being an insufferable twat. People are taking their time and expertise to respond to you, and your reply is to say "cool story bro"? I stopped caring what you had to say after that.

 

[Kak]

I am coming in a little late on this argument and have been trying to avoid this thread because it is just 2 completely different opinions and nobody is going to budge on what they believe.

So here is my thoughts on college in relation to jobs, short and sweet.

A college degree used to put you "ahead" of others, it meant you had a passion to learn and a drive for further education. Now, college is the new highschool, you have to have a college education to be at the "norm". The problem with this is when EVERYONE goes to college so people feel they need to go to get a masters instead of a bachelors to get ahead, and soon it will be a doctorate (until the system collapse), it's a vicious cycle. People also still assume that college will put you ahead of others like it did in the past, and for the most part it will not, rather it may keep your head above water though. College is a bubble here in the U.S, when people don't have to pay for their education (so they think) and everyone can afford whatever college, the colleges drive up prices because someone can afford college whether it is 30k or 100k a year. College is a cash cow right now, but the system is not self sustaining, the bubble will pop here in the US, mark my words.

We all need to understand on this forum that not everyone wants to be an entrepreneur, some people want to become lawyers, doctors, engineers and many of those positions require a college degree, and that is perfectly O.K. Other people are just what I guess can best be referred to as cows, they are incapable of making decisions for themselves, they need a boss to tell them what to do, they need to be told when to shit, eat, and sleep, not all of the human population is as mentally independent as we all are on here. That is completely O.K. as well. After all we need employees to write our emails and schedule are appointments for us, if we all worked for ourselves, nobody would get anything done.

Why is someone without a college degree viewed negatively? Well, again, most people are not like you and I, many employers have the assumption that if you do not have a college degree, then you did not have the work ethic, passion, or brains to make it into a college (think high school dropout who wants to grow weed in his basement). Unfortunately, a large majority of people who don't go to college actually would fit into the above category, lazy, unmotivated and anyone like you and I who view college as a waste of time and resources sadly gets shoved under the rug and placed in that same category.

So is college good for you? For most people, yes, it allows them to feel "normal" and gives them the opportunity to fit in with the rest of the crowd. For entrepreneurs, my general opinion is that it is not incredibly helpful unless you are able to make connections or learn something at college that can help you leverage your situation, which is rare.

Is college good for society? Well if college had remained an institution that really put you ahead in life, and was not subsidized by the government, then yes I would say it would be good. As of now, college is toxic, college is doing more to destroy america than it is doing to help america, it is putting the idea into millions of teenagers heads that they are deserving of a 100k+ a year job, health insurance, and a 401k. Not everyone in the world can be a yuppie, at the end of the day, someone has got to clean the toilets and take out the trash, that's how capitalism works.

If everyone in the world drove a Lamborghini, would a Lamborghini still be an exotic car?

Wow you took the words out of my mouth. Lol at the cows that don't make decisions for themselves.

 

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[DeletedUser394]

It used to be that the only two certainties in life were death and taxes. Well, unless you're an American or Eritrean citizen, it is fairly easy to legally avoid paying all or most taxes. (America and Eritrea are the only two countries on earth that tax based on citizenship regardless of residency)

So now the only two certainties in life are death, and the never ending college and programming threads.

 

[dknise]

Lot of great advice in this thread, despite the OP being an insufferable twat. People are taking their time and expertise to respond to you, and your reply is to say "cool story bro"? I stopped caring what you had to say after that.

If you respond to one of my posts where my response back would be my original post, you'll get a "cool story bro." It essentially means you didn't read what I have to say and obviously it's too late to for me to not read yours. He wasn't taking his time and expertise to respond, he was blabbering on about the same slowlane nonsense that doesn't belong on this forum.

By all means, take their advice then. Enjoy the sidewalk buddy.

 

[Tlcalis]

dknise did you ever do the talk and if you did how did it go?

 

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[gazillionaire]

If you respond to one of my posts where my response back would be my original post, you'll get a "cool story bro." It essentially means you didn't read what I have to say and obviously it's too late to for me to not read yours. He wasn't taking his time and expertise to respond, he was blabbering on about the same slowlane nonsense that doesn't belong on this forum.

By all means, take their advice then. Enjoy the sidewalk buddy.

Thankfully most things in life don't fall into this black and white, either/or scenario, so if for some reason I did find your advice useful and applicable it would be doomed by a logical fallacy.

You've got another cognitive distortion there telling me to enjoy the sidewalk. You can't read my mind to know what path I'm taking in life. Not sure why anyone would want to take your advice when its regularly full of these fallacies and distortions, which you can't even see because your ego has created a massive blind spot.

Since I actually enjoy these forums and I plan to hang around, I care if people other than yourself get the wrong idea that I'm pro-college. I reluctantly got my degree, paid next to nothing for it, and have gotten great advice from these forums to help grow my businesses.

 

[brambel]

What I think is funny, but most of the children of rich successful entrepreneurs are sent to college and study a long period at different locations.
So I think the main point about studying is debt (in my country we don't have that problem), and time.
For me, I study as long as I have the opportunity, do some college partying, and study entrepreneurship classes which are offered a lot and start side projects in my free time. Get to know a lot more people then if I would 'work on my business' all day (time which is very much spent in solitude).
I understand that mindset, like MJ, who is free now to do what he wants with his time. But I think, making true lifelong friends is much harder after college (except if you are lucky with collegues/business partners).

Tell me, why is there so much college bashing here? I dont want to change my experiences here for money ...
I am so young and I can learn some fastlane skills and start with the fastlane after, who cares if I am 27 by then?

 

[dknise]

Thankfully most things in life don't fall into this black and white, either/or scenario, so if for some reason I did find your advice useful and applicable it would be doomed by a logical fallacy.

You've got another cognitive distortion there telling me to enjoy the sidewalk. You can't read my mind to know what path I'm taking in life. Not sure why anyone would want to take your advice when its regularly full of these fallacies and distortions, which you can't even see because your ego has created a massive blind spot.

Since I actually enjoy these forums and I plan to hang around, I care if people other than yourself get the wrong idea that I'm pro-college. I reluctantly got my degree, paid next to nothing for it, and have gotten great advice from these forums to help grow my businesses.

Cool story bro.

If I were to respond with anything, it would be my original post. Glad you read what I wrote.:smilielol:

 

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[Kak]

I am coming in a little late on this argument and have been trying to avoid this thread because it is just 2 completely different opinions and nobody is going to budge on what they believe.

So here is my thoughts on college in relation to jobs, short and sweet.

A college degree used to put you "ahead" of others, it meant you had a passion to learn and a drive for further education. Now, college is the new highschool, you have to have a college education to be at the "norm". The problem with this is when EVERYONE goes to college so people feel they need to go to get a masters instead of a bachelors to get ahead, and soon it will be a doctorate (until the system collapse), it's a vicious cycle. People also still assume that college will put you ahead of others like it did in the past, and for the most part it will not, rather it may keep your head above water though. College is a bubble here in the U.S, when people don't have to pay for their education (so they think) and everyone can afford whatever college, the colleges drive up prices because someone can afford college whether it is 30k or 100k a year. College is a cash cow right now, but the system is not self sustaining, the bubble will pop here in the US, mark my words.

We all need to understand on this forum that not everyone wants to be an entrepreneur, some people want to become lawyers, doctors, engineers and many of those positions require a college degree, and that is perfectly O.K. Other people are just what I guess can best be referred to as cows, they are incapable of making decisions for themselves, they need a boss to tell them what to do, they need to be told when to shit, eat, and sleep, not all of the human population is as mentally independent as we all are on here. That is completely O.K. as well. After all we need employees to write our emails and schedule are appointments for us, if we all worked for ourselves, nobody would get anything done.

Why is someone without a college degree viewed negatively? Well, again, most people are not like you and I, many employers have the assumption that if you do not have a college degree, then you did not have the work ethic, passion, or brains to make it into a college (think high school dropout who wants to grow weed in his basement). Unfortunately, a large majority of people who don't go to college actually would fit into the above category, lazy, unmotivated and anyone like you and I who view college as a waste of time and resources sadly gets shoved under the rug and placed in that same category.

So is college good for you? For most people, yes, it allows them to feel "normal" and gives them the opportunity to fit in with the rest of the crowd. For entrepreneurs, my general opinion is that it is not incredibly helpful unless you are able to make connections or learn something at college that can help you leverage your situation, which is rare.

Is college good for society? Well if college had remained an institution that really put you ahead in life, and was not subsidized by the government, then yes I would say it would be good. As of now, college is toxic, college is doing more to destroy america than it is doing to help america, it is putting the idea into millions of teenagers heads that they are deserving of a 100k+ a year job, health insurance, and a 401k. Not everyone in the world can be a yuppie, at the end of the day, someone has got to clean the toilets and take out the trash, that's how capitalism works.

If everyone in the world drove a Lamborghini, would a Lamborghini still be an exotic car?

Mike. You going to college?

 

[InMotion]

Basic supply and demand

 

[The Autobahn]

unfortunately you need "paper education" to get some positions at companys.. even if its waste of money.
Speaking from the experience, most people dont have the idea to make big bucks thats why the path with the school will be always around.

 

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[Lights]

What I think is funny, but most of the children of rich successful entrepreneurs are sent to college and study a long period at different locations.
So I think the main point about studying is debt (in my country we don't have that problem), and time.
For me, I study as long as I have the opportunity, do some college partying, and study entrepreneurship classes which are offered a lot and start side projects in my free time. Get to know a lot more people then if I would 'work on my business' all day (time which is very much spent in solitude).
I understand that mindset, like MJ, who is free now to do what he wants with his time. But I think, making true lifelong friends is much harder after college (except if you are lucky with collegues/business partners).

Tell me, why is there so much college bashing here? I dont want to change my experiences here for money ...
I am so young and I can learn some fastlane skills and start with the fastlane after, who cares if I am 27 by then?

I think it's because it's a total waste.

If everyone told you to go to clown school to make 40k at the end, and at the school they generally teach you useless topics without a good skill to survive on. Spend 4-6 years. Spend 10-100k. The opportunity costs of going to this school were working to build capital, or creating something on your own which could be later fastlane. And at the end, there are no jobs available because everyone is a clown too, and there are better clowns than yourself. And you have a ton of debt too...

it's not the end of the world though

 

[JAJT]

Can't recall if I said it in this thread or not but I'll say it again:

In all the jobs I've held, not a single one of them mentioned college or schooling during the hiring process. Not a single one.

I even tried talking about it and proactively bringing it up in interviews (back when college was one of my biggest "assets" due to lack of employment history). Nobody cared. Nobody.

They would say "Oh, that's neat... ahem... now I see here that you worked for McDonald's a few years back, tell me about that".

They were literally more interested in my experiences in fast food than my college diploma. No talk of grades, courses, projects, books, or insights learned. Nope. All they cared about was how I handled a difficult situation with my peers while making burgers. Or how my previous boss thought of me. Or whether I worked for anyone who would give a reference. Or how much customer experience I had.

I can't express enough the feeling of egg on my face when I found out I got my first corporate job as a result of having worked in a call center almost 4 years prior. All I could think of was the $150,000ish I left on the table by being out of the job market for 3 years.

 

[InMotion]

College degrees are similar to money in that they have an inflation rate too. Degrees are nearing hyperinflation. The Gold standard is "what can you actually do for us today, tomorrow, in a month."

 

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[Jake]

My job doesn't require a degree. It requires balls and pays more than what most PhD's earn.

Go to college if you want the college education or experience..not for the potential salary increase.

 

[The Autobahn]

Can't recall if I said it in this thread or not but I'll say it again:

In all the jobs I've held, not a single one of them mentioned college or schooling during the hiring process. Not a single one.

I even tried talking about it and proactively bringing it up in interviews (back when college was one of my biggest "assets" due to lack of employment history). Nobody cared. Nobody.

ok depends where you live... i want to mention that it doesn`t work in Switzerland / Europe unless you have backdoor connections or some real serious skills.

 

[JAJT]

i want to mention that it doesn`t work in Switzerland / Europe unless you have backdoor connections or some real serious skills.

How does it work in Switzerland?

Is the discussion on education a major talking point there? Even over actual work experience?

I have to imagine that in any part of the world prior actions are going to talk louder than words. As an employer I would always, always sooner higher the guy with experience and no education over the guy with education and no experience.

 

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[The Autobahn]

How does it work in Switzerland?

Is the discussion on education a major talking point there? Even over actual work experience?

I have to imagine that in any part of the world prior actions are going to talk louder than words. As an employer I would always, always sooner higher the guy with experience and no education over the guy with education and no experience.

As an employer I would always, always sooner higher the guy with experience and no education over the guy with education and no experience.

lets say you want a job as a "Project manager in a international company" you need to have experince and at least B.S.C in engineering/higher education. You might get a non critical job with experience and no education.

 

[JAJT]

So yes, education is a requirement in highly specialized fields where there is no shortcut around formal education.

Nobody is becoming a Lawyer, Engineer, or Doctor without formal education.

I think the main point in this thread is that you don't need education for jobs that aren't highly specialized (which is where 90% of the population lands).

People should ask themselves before entering college "would someone believe I can do this job without college?". Sales? Marketing? Business Development? Artist? Retail store manager? Yes, absolutely those are self-teachable skills that can be acquired through hard experience.

Dentist? Lawyer? Doctor? Physiotherapy? Engineer? No - it is highly unlikely anyone is going to hire you to do anything in these fields without extensive in-class training.