Here to destroy all your preconceived notions about college

[Skys]

Cool story bro.

Not nice to hear, I understand. Try to sleep on everything you just read, some really smart people you might respect a lot more than me are telling you the same. Education is not for everyone, but it is very important for most people and a demand for most companies if you want to work there.

It's not a cool story. It's a sad story. The world economy is at a point where companies can ask the weirdest things ('he needs to have a university degree, he needs to be the life of the party and he needs to know PHP, Python, C++, Javascript and HTML5 at an expert level.. and ..oh.. please not to old!').

 

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[The-J]

dknise needs to practice his argument skills. I hope you don't argue with people in real life the way you argue with people on the Internet. Try telling 'cool story bro' to one of your customers and see if they buy from you ever again.

 

[dknise]

dknise needs to practice his argument skills. I hope you don't argue with people in real life the way you argue with people on the Internet. Try telling 'cool story bro' to one of your customers and see if they buy from you ever again.

----The customer is always right. I'm not dealing with customers right now though. I have a backbone and am cut-throat. Not a bad quality to have imo.
I've heard that same BS a billion times. As I said in my first post, it's a lonely road if you choose to go it. Skys, the majority agrees with you, we all know this. I completely disagree. That's the point of the post and it's for those who are wondering if anyone's ever thought that way too. If you noticed... I'm going to talk to kids who aren't going to college. I'm not even going to try and convince anyone who wants to go not to.


You can't get that job, it requires a degree. Did it.
You can't know as much as a person with a degree. Did it. Now I know more.
You can't learn without school. Did it.

And you wonder why I'm so hostile? hahaha Quit telling me what I can't do when I'm doing it. And quit telling everyone else they can't either.

 

[miked_d]

Internet Argument!

 

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[theag]

I agree with dknise and I'm sure a lot of others do too, even if they dont reply here. The only problem is that recruiters think otherwise. Sure you can land those jobs without a degree, but this mostly happens if you dont go through the normal application process. Most recruiters will simply throw away your cv as soon as they get to the education section (which usually is at the top of the cv for recent grads and other young guys).

 

[dknise]

I agree with dknise and I'm sure a lot of others do too, even if they dont reply here. The only problem is that recruiters think otherwise. Sure you can land those jobs without a degree, but this mostly happens if you dont go through the normal application process. Most recruiters will simply throw away your cv as soon as they get to the education section (which usually is at the top of the cv for recent grads and other young guys).

True that.

It only took a week to land my software job, but I had 5 interviews and the first 4 were with recruiters. The recruitment process with them epitomized my hatred for college haha. Why on earth were they interviewing me for a software job when they knew NOTHING about software!? Needless to say, they rushed me out the door.

My 5th interview was an in-house classical programming interview with two seasoned coders across the table and a whiteboard. They told me I landed the interview because of my resume, which used the 3D WPF forms that had been out for a week and still aren't out and documented today. I knew I had to do something to catch someone's attention and they liked that I had the ability to learn and figure out on my own. They even joked about how most of the fresh college kids ask what classes they'll pay for after being stumped on a question. My response was that I'd search Amazon, buy the best book, read it on the weekend, and come in on Monday as pro as can be. When your official job title inherently implies "problem solver," they don't like to hear that you can't fish on your own.

 

[theDarkness]

Oh my god, OP. You are so incredibly full of yourself that I as a high schooler would have never listened to a word you said.

Any speech you give is going to be completely wasted. They'll see that your foremost interest is feeding your own ego, and they will tune you out instantly.

Focus on the message, and on helping these people make an informed decision. Cut out all the ego crap.

Nah I hear it all the time. If I listened to everyone who said you can't do something, I wouldn't have accomplished anything. I have more job offers in my email box for software dev work than are posted on most websites haha and I have no desire to work for a company again. I landed a job in a week that required a major in CS and 5 years of experience with none of that. I've had countless offers since and get contracts that can be completed in a weekend making more money than college grads make in a month. But no, you're right. Keep up the defeatist attitude.

 

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[The-J]

My argument still stands.

It's who you know, not what you have or what you know.

You got the job because you knew someone who was looking for someone like you, not because you send in a blind application. They would have tossed your resume as soon as they saw that you didn't have a degree. And you're trying to claim that you're not special. You are special in that situation: why else would people badmouth you? Because you got preferential treatment.

I know plenty of people without degrees who have good jobs in 'you're supposed to have a degree' fields. They got in because they knew someone on the inside.

I know a guy who worked at Best Buy when he was 16! Best Buy doesn't hire under 18. His dad worked there, so he was able to get him in without so much as an interview.

Fair? Not really. But who would you rather hire: someone who can be vouched for by someone you know despite lack of mainstream credentials, or someone who is just coming right out of college?

 

[mayana]

There is something really important that has been left out of this discussion. I'm sure that no one under the age of 21 will want to hear it (I know I certainly didn't like it when I heard it when I was younger)...

A lot of employers like people with college degrees for different reasons than you might think.

1. Completing a college degree is a way to demonstrate that you have certain character traits that most employers want to see in their employees (ability to learn, ability to start something and see it through, project management skills, etc). This doesn't mean that there is no other way to acquire these skills, but it a simple way for them to evaluate a resume. If they don't see a degree, they have to work harder to see what you've been up to.

2. A lot of times, it's tougher to get jobs with higher levels of responsibility until you are at least of college graduate age. This is just the truth. I know a dozen people will argue and say that they are the exception. Good for you; I am glad that it worked out for you. College is a good use of the time immediately after high school for a lot of people.

And for those who say that you never need to go to college: I'll be damned if you are operating on my brain without a crap load of diplomas on the wall behind you.

 

[dknise]

1. Completing a college degree is a way to demonstrate that you have certain character traits that most employers want to see in their employees (ability to learn, ability to start something and see it through, project management skills, etc). This doesn't mean that there is no other way to acquire these skills, but it a simple way for them to evaluate a resume. If they don't see a degree, they have to work harder to see what you've been up to.

Memorizing to get a good grade then forgetting it the next day and being unable to learn on without a teacher aren't quality traits. The inability to ask vital questions and think critically about the situation your in is a huge plus for employers looking to exploit, thank you Mark Cuban.

2. A lot of times, it's tougher to get jobs with higher levels of responsibility until you are at least of college graduate age. This is just the truth. I know a dozen people will argue and say that they are the exception. Good for you; I am glad that it worked out for you. College is a good use of the time immediately after high school for a lot of people. .

I'm the exception. You find a lot of exceptions of people that didn't attend school to apply themselves further than what a classroom could provide. The problem is the majority of people out there telling people they physically "can't" do something to the point they actually believe it. End of story.

 

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[DeletedUser394]

Ego: Off the charts.
Age: 22.

Now I get it.

Anyway, JScott I'm really glad to see you posting again!!! Great stuff as always

 

[dknise]

Ego: Off the charts.
Age: 22.

Now I get it.

I'll agree just because of the strong tone I've had in this thread. It's funny that you never question a teacher when they claim their knowledge and experience without having been in the field. Double standard?

Unlike your college professor, I am taking the advice I have just given. I quit school three years ago, have read hundreds of books on my own, started several successful businesses, learned what I want and what I don't want out of life, became a professional programmer, worked at Microsoft as a software dev before CS majors even graduated, have more money in the bank than most of the guys my age have in debt after college, and still know that I am in the absolute infant stages of my journey and have so so so incredibly much more to learn. I am not saying to take my advice... I am NOT the person who has been there, done that, and has the life that you want to live. I urge you to find those people for what you want to learn and listen to them. Get out of the student-teacher relationship and get into the mentor-apprentice. Become an apprentice by reading material of the people you want to listen to. You don't have to have direct communication to have a mentor. Last but not least, if you choose this route, don't expect anybody to agree with you. Like I said, your parents and society are expecting you to do one thing, but you don't want what "everyone" has. You want more. It's a lonely road, but you have to take actions that few do to live like few can.

 

[Runum]

I'll agree just because of the strong tone I've had in this thread. It's funny that you never question a teacher when they claim their knowledge and experience without having been in the field. Double standard?

Teachers get questioned all the time. I am doubted by parents, administrators, guys on the street, and anyone else who thinks they know it all. I still enjoy working with the students though.

 

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[dknise]

Teachers get questioned all the time. I am doubted by parents, administrators, guys on the street, and anyone else who thinks they know it all. I still enjoy working with the students though.

You teach to teenagers right? I didn't have any problem with my K-12 education, I loved it. My teachers were great.

My only gripe is with the direction of college over the last 20 years and it's goals. I'd have to wonder if any public school or teacher wasn't in it for the right reasons, but I can't think of a reason how they couldn't be. I can't say the same about the post-education though.

ps... maybe that's why I revolted so hard haha. We had a lot of ex-professionals as teachers, even a guy that was a nuclear scientist from Hanford as a teacher for Chem.

 

[AgonI]

I think what dknise is saying is that if you want to go fastlane at an early age, YOU DON'T need to go to college. This is a fact, has been proven tons of times, I am not gonna list them because we all know who they are.

Now if you have a slowlane mindset, of course you are going to go to college, waste 4 years of your life listening to some Indian or Chinese professor having difficulties spelling the correct professional terms, let alone teaching you what they are, completing your 'general studies' bs which includes extremely STUPID material/classes which you are NEVER going to use again unless you go to a who wants to be a millionaire quiz as a day job, etc etc.

Dknise is VERY right and he has proven it. I go to college myself(I MUST as I am an international student) and I truly,honestly think that college, unless you are attending MIT, Harvard, or one of the top 10 unis, is a waste of time. I've spent 3 years taking classes as of this moment, I have one more year to finally graduate from this crap, and I can GUARANTEE that if I were to spend ONLY 6 months reading about 10-15 programming books, I would've been a million times better programmer than what I am right now.

So to sum it up:
College = SLOWLANE
Now, of course just because you decided not to go to college is not fastlane, you have to spend tons and tons of time teaching yourself things that are sooooooo easily accessible online for much cheaper than one credit hour cost at college, but hey, at least you don't have to worry about your next 'media studies' assignment which will take 3 hours to finish, and you will NEVER use it again. Nor you are going to have to worry about working 20-40 hours per week to pay off your college nonsense. You can instead spend ALL THAT TIME that you are never going to get back ever in your life, studing a different topic by reading another book related to whatever you've decided to study as a 'major'.

 

[The-J]

and I truly,honestly think that college, unless you are attending MIT, Harvard, or one of the top 10 unis, is a waste of time.

Not true. I attended a top 20 American school last year and am in a top 5 Canadian school and I still feel like I'm wasting time (and money, oh god the money, university at a top institution costs more than a house). Makes me wonder why my parents pushed me in this direction.

There are perks, though. The people are much cooler and the networks are much higher up there.

 

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[AgonI]

Not true. I attended a top 20 American school last year and am in a top 5 Canadian school and I still feel like I'm wasting time (and money, oh god the money, university at a top institution costs more than a house). Makes me wonder why my parents pushed me in this direction.

There are perks, though. The people are much cooler and the networks are much higher up there.

Well I didn't mean to say literally top 10 and that's it, somewhere around that range. Even top 30-40. Gosh, just such a waste of time in one sentence

 

[The-J]

There is literally zero difference in education quality between Harvard and Stanford and a highly ranked public university. (I use the term highly-ranked very loosely and I'm not talking about UC Berkeley. I'm talking about your above-average public 4-year university)

There is a difference in the people, however. I've met many entrepreneurs and some self-made millionaires. Talk about a fire under your a$$, meeting kids who have made a million dollars before their 18th birthday. (The kids in question are not entrepreneurs but are child actors lol). One of my friends started a nonprofit music charity last year. The work they are doing is absolutely amazing. An acquaintance of mine is a member of a team doing a start-up that's been mentioned on Fox News and is getting a BBC mention. Another friend of mine was mentioned on Forbes (!!) for his tech start-up. The list goes on and on, and these guys are my age.

The professors are also somewhat better. I only say somewhat because Nobel laureates and the like don't just work at Ivys but at public universities as well. Good luck getting a Nobel laureate to even talk to you, though. They are too wrapped up in their own research.

The biggest reward to a good university is the network. If you can get into a good university for free or almost free (which isn't rare among Ivies), I'd recommend going for a year or two, and if school really isn't for you, drop out. You still have the network whether you graduate or not.

 

[dknise]

There is literally zero difference in education quality between Harvard and Stanford and a highly ranked public university. (I use the term highly-ranked very loosely and I'm not talking about UC Berkeley. I'm talking about your above-average public 4-year university)

This post might be insightful for people who think I'm completely full of myself haha.

I can't honestly speak about that, but I'd like to think the ivy league schools have legitimate professors. The difference between attending Columbia University and attending Washington State University and taking a course on quantum mechanics is the difference between having a physics major teaching and having the almighty Brian Greene teaching you. If I had a choice between reading Brian Greene's everyday-person friendly book "The Elegant Universe," and taking a course from him at a college, I'd sign up for the class in a heart beat. Unfortunately, this scenario we're talking about is probably the scenario less than 1% of people attending college actually get. They're told they're getting Brian Greene... and really they get a guy standing at a podium reading your text book and grading papers.

I took a course on C# from the University of Washington and got "certified." It was $2500 and taught me literally, absolutely nothing. Why did I take the course? The author of the Pro C# Apress book was supposed to be the teacher! First day there (thinking technical college education is better than university college), I face palmed at the fact that the teacher was going to learn C# with us, because he only knew Java. Because I would have lost half my cash, I stuck with the course hoping the author would return but that never happened. Once again, promised Brian Greene, got a guy at a podium reading his book.


My whole point is that you don't have to pay the guy at the podium to read you Brian Greene's book. Buy the book, it's costs about 2% the price of taking a college course. In fact on any subject, you should be getting the book that was written by THE Brian Greene in the field and learning from them, they are the best in their field of study for a reason. Your class knows it because they tell you to buy the book. So what purpose does the professor serve?

I've said this a few times, THE best teacher I had at college wasn't even a teacher, he was a former mathematician at NASA traveling around to PAC10 schools to TA students in advanced calculus. His paycheck was $0 and he was the greatest teacher I've ever had. He didn't teach us to memorize math, he taught us how to derive math on the spot. He didn't force us to memorize it, he got us to learn it and learn how to learn it. When my actual teacher of that course was constantly drunk and talking about his divorce in lecture, and my TA was the most bad a$$ guy ever, I knew I should leave and stop paying the wrong person to be teaching me. It's people like that TA that people should listen to and learn from, and the only place you can exclusively get that experience for 5% the price is by not attending college. I think the learning, the knowledge, the experience, and the people you get to choose to listen and learn from is well worth the negative vibe from society.

 

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[Skys]

I agree with dknise and I'm sure a lot of others do too, even if they dont reply here. The only problem is that recruiters think otherwise. Sure you can land those jobs without a degree, but this mostly happens if you dont go through the normal application process. Most recruiters will simply throw away your cv as soon as they get to the education section (which usually is at the top of the cv for recent grads and other young guys).

True.
On the side of the recruiter, this is how a job site works: We can filter completely what we want your CV to look like. Minimal level of education is almost always in that filter.

So, Dknise, your degree (certification), might helped you a bit more then you asume it did.

I took a course on C# from the University of Washington and got "certified." It was $2500 and taught me literally, absolutely nothing.

 

[splok]

Over the last four years, I've continually wishes someone had presented the alternative before I wasted a year of my life and $25,000. You can't give people a choice if you only present one option.

Obviously there's a bunch of college grads here who are getting super offended... sorry you spent so much and got so little haha. Tough luck.

Erm what? Your quoted me but it doesn't even seem like you read my post. I'm not a big fan of college. I don't have kids (but I assume I will at some point), and I can't even imagine sending them to grade school, let alone university (unless they really want to do something with utterly requires it). I wouldn't go to college if I had my live to live over knowing what I know now. The problem is, I came to know what I know now via my experiences, many of which occurred during college.

I did spend a lot on college, in money and time, but if that helped get me, mentally, from where I was at 18 to where I am now, then it was money and time well spent, even if it wasn't the optimal path. If people can find a shorter path to where they want to be, then they should definitely take it. However, walk outside and take a look around. How many of those people will ever be mentally ready to shoot for the fastlane?

Also, since you sound a bit hostile here I have to ask, why exactly is it someone else's responsibility to present you with alternatives? You wasted four years of your life because you didn't do your own research? Touch luck indeed.

 

[Swoop]

To the OP:

I think it's great what you are doing. Kids in school these days are pretty much told "go to college or you're worthless". What we are starting to see is every mid to lower level student racking up tons of debt on a worthless degree from a terrible college that prints degrees, just to say "I went to college".

The timing of this thread is crazy for me. I was just having a conversation with my mom about my little brother who is still in college. He is 3 years into school and has probably withdrawn from or failed more classes than he has completed. He is not stupid by any means, but he is skipping classes, missing assignments, basically just going through the motions. He actually just dropped all of his classes for the semester and my parents are pretty upset about it. My mom actually said to me "He can always work for your Dad's company, but we just want him to have a college degree. I dont care what it is in as long as he finishes college." I didnt want to get into this discussion with her, but it seems more and more obvious that college is not for my brother, at least not until he decides what he wants to do for a living, and if that "requires" a degree. I dont think he is going to be the next great entreprenuer, but I am starting to think he would be better off working and learning some industry from experience right now instead of wasting time and money with literature and history classes that he doesnt go to. My parents are in a position where they can pretty easily afford to pay his way, so I guess if they want him to graduate, then they are fine paying for it, but most people would be $50k in debt and no closer to making money.

On the flip side, I did go to college and I dont regret it, even as I am starting to realize that I dont want to work for someone else any more. Yes, there was a ton of wasted time and money taking bs classes that I think is a joke, but the experience and maturity I gained was well worth it. As a private schooled white kid from south GA, I wasnt exactly exposed to many differing ideas, cultures, or beliefs (putting it lightly haha). Before college, I had never met a Jew, homosexual, atheist, asian, middle easterner, hell, barely a democrat. College was a great chance to get out of my comfort zone and meet and learn from a hugely diverse crowd, all gathered in the same place. I didnt let them brainwash me , but I definitely have learned from hearing other's perspective. I guess this could all be learned from getting out in the real world, but my experience is that those that dont go off to college stay home and dont really change anything.

I wouldnt tell kids that college is evil, but I wish that they were presented with an equal option. Right now it's "GO TO COLLEGE, YAY!", or "Didnt go to college...have fun at McDonalds". Sadly I think that a lot of these kids give up because they might not be good at academics early on, and they are told that their future is either academics or being poor.

I would say that you seem a little too biased AGAINST college to talk to kids who are still making up their minds, but for kids that are not going I think you could really inspire them and show them that their are other options for them. I think a non biased presentation of college vs alternatives as equally good options, starting in middle school would be the best thing for the kids, but I dont see the schools changing their philosophy.

All, in all, if your presentation can help one kid to a better life, then it is worth it. I think it's great that you are taking your time to help educate others.


Sorry for the long post haha.


-Swoop

 

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[theag]

kids who are still making up their minds

I think he said that those kids he's going to speak to already made up their mind and will not go.

 

[Swoop]

I think he said that those kids he's going to speak to already made up their mind and will not go.

Yea, I got that. I think he should keep doing what he's doing. I just meant I think anyone who talks to kids still making up their minds should probably be a little more balanced in their approach. Not necessarily just him, but anyone.

 

[GPG]

Why go to college?
So I can get a good job.
I want to be educated.
I am expected to by not only my family, but society.
I want to make a lot of money.

In my opinion, all of your statements make sense in some way regarding choosing for college or university. However, I have been raised in the Netherlands, where the college and university experience may be different than yours. A major difference is that going to college or university in the Netherlands is relatively affordable, leading to less or no debt. I am in my final year and have no debt at all. Your arguments in favour of skipping college or university do make sense, but probably do not apply to all students.

Now, as I mentioned in my introduction thread too, I am doing a Master in Entrepreneurship and New Business Venturing. According to your theory, I am a lunatic who is wasting his time. However, this Master is teaching me how to identify business opportunities, teaches me necessary entrepreneurial skills, teaches me how to organize efficient start-ups, teaches me how to accelerate growth, when to sell the venture, how to attract financial resources, how to innovate. I get three guest lectures a week, of which a majority has started and is running serious businesses in terms of turnover and profit. This Master programme is running for three years now, but has already delivered its first millionaires, noted in the Dutch version of Forbes magazine (Quote). The university has its own incubator programme, helping you in your first years as an entrepreneur and in obtaining your degree.

 

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[Vigilante]

I was quoted in CIO magazine in 2000 (when most of you were still in grade school...lol).

CNN.com - Technology - Are e-commerce degrees just a fad? - September 11, 2000

Dave Happe, president of Ecruiters.net in Chanhassen, Minn., an executive search company that specializes in Internet technology and e-commerce, thinks that these degrees aren't getting at the heart of what is needed today. "Our clients would take a young talent with six months' worth of 18-hour days at a B2B startup company over a Harvard e-commerce graduate," he says. "Ideas that led the industry a year ago now bankrupt companies that haven't changed several times since then."

The experience from the school of hard knocks that you all can get on the street is more valuable to you than what a professor can teach you from a text book in most cases. At prestigious colleges, the professor teaching an entrepreneurial class might have excellent credentials from Microsoft... but that doesn't mean he has ever boot strapped a business from the ground up. At mid tier universities down to community colleges, teachers in the college of business may or may not have ever built a business.

When I was in junior high, we had a teacher for the pre-teen subject of sex-ed. The problem was that this teacher was literally 400+ lbs., and unmarried. The likelihood that she had ever had sex was an unassumed zero. Nobody listened to her, as she was not an experienced expert in the subject matter in which she spoke.

You can give me all the pie charts, case studies, and theories in the world... but unless you have made a payroll at the expense of your family, developed a skill that built a company that subsequently had value outside of your own mind, or can demonstrate some degree of entrepreneurial success... you're not worth listening to in an academic setting.

I think business degrees are near worthless. At best, they are tie breakers. At worst, they're $100,000 boat anchors. Degrees in law, psychology, engineering, or other professions that require credentials are valuable and mandatory for those professions. If your intention is to get a B.A. in Liberal Arts, save your money. Apply at Subway with the rest of your graduating class, and save yourself $100k.

 

[The-J]

At prestigious colleges, the professor teaching an entrepreneurial class might have excellent credentials from Microsoft... but that doesn't mean he has ever boot strapped a business from the ground up.

My intro management professor is a serial entrepreneur. He's been in the start-up scene since before the dot-com boom and crash of 2000. He has some amazing things to say about running businesses and starting them. He seems to like me. Don't know why.

One day, a substitute professor came in to teach our class (he's the head of the Management department). He said some stupid a$$ things about running a business. If my real professor knew what he was saying he would have slapped him.

It's cool having a professor who can talk the talk and walk the walk.

This reminds me, I have an exam tomorrow for this class

 

[Vigilante]

The most worthwhile business teachers are guys like MJ that cash out... need something to do with their time... and end up donating some time to the local community college. Those guys are rare... but are worth gold and show up in some unlikely places. What a great way to give back once you have made it over the mountain.

A critical distinction you will see about entrepreneurs that lend their skills to academia is that they don't drink the kool-aid. They will bring with them a healthy degree of skepticism and war scars that make their experience and their words worth studying.

 

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[The-J]

The most worthwhile business teachers are guys like MJ that cash out... need something to do with their time... and end up donating some time to the local community college. Those guys are rare... but are worth gold and show up in some unlikely places. What a great way to give back once you have made it over the mountain.

A critical distinction you will see about entrepreneurs that lend their skills to academia is that they don't drink the kool-aid. They will bring with them a healthy degree of skepticism and war scars that make their experience and their words worth studying.

Hey, Rickson9: come over and teach for a while.

 

[theag]

The-J: did your professor actually cash out or is he just a "serial entrepreneur in the startup scene"? I mean, startup scene doesnt necessarily imply success. I cringe when I think about the startup "scene" I got to know while I was in Berlin (its laughable, everybody has the next big consumer internet startup thing but nobody makes money)