Here to destroy all your preconceived notions about college

[CTamme]

The experience from the school of hard knocks that you all can get on the street is more valuable to you than what a professor can teach you from a text book in most cases.

I don't think school can teach you how to make things happen. It took me some time once I got out but I found that my bosses appreciated it when I took action instead of asking what I should do. The poor managers were the ones that would castigate me instead of standing behind me and telling me what they would have done differently.

 

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[dknise]

So, Dknise, your degree (certification), might helped you a bit more then you asume it did.

Nah, I thought it'd help me play catch up for work but it just took away 4 hours of my time twice a week haha. If the author had been there like I thought it was going to be... it would have been well worth the experience.

I wouldnt tell kids that college is evil, but I wish that they were presented with an equal option. Right now it's "GO TO COLLEGE, YAY!", or "Didnt go to college...have fun at McDonalds". Sadly I think that a lot of these kids give up because they might not be good at academics early on, and they are told that their future is either academics or being poor.

I would say that you seem a little too biased AGAINST college to talk to kids who are still making up their minds, but for kids that are not going I think you could really inspire them and show them that their are other options for them. I think a non biased presentation of college vs alternatives as equally good options, starting in middle school would be the best thing for the kids, but I dont see the schools changing their philosophy.

All, in all, if your presentation can help one kid to a better life, then it is worth it. I think it's great that you are taking your time to help educate others.

Hey Swoop, I hope your brother figures out what he wants to do in life! Very intelligent people often don't being like told what to do and he may be one of them. The video that made me leave college was Steve Jobs commencement speech at Stanford (ironic that it was at a college by a college dropout haha). That speech will eternally say things better than I ever could, so send it to your brother and see what he thinks. I lost motivation and drive in college, but when I left, I was able to do what Steve Jobs was talking about. I could learn what I wanted to, when I wanted to and at the pace I wanted to. Your brother might be that type of person too.

I think the first line of my original post says it all "It's no secret... I hate college." I'm definitely biased, but I think I am JUST as biased as the educational system is FOR college as I am against. Like theag said, the kids I'll be talking to have already decided they aren't going, and my local school system has abandoned them and basically told them they're worthless and with no future. My goal is to convince them otherwise. I can't make them read or get them to give themselves a marketable skill set, but I can try and give them back what the educational system here has taken from them. I think it'd be great if all the options could be explored by school councilors, but the fact of the matter is they went to college and really only see it one way. I really only see it one way. It's like taking the red or the blue pill in the Matrix and once you take one it's hard to look back.

 

[Tommy92l]

i <3 controversial threads. My friend is thinking about dropping out, I'll send this to him.

 

[theag]

Send him JackEdwards college thread, too, to keep it balanced.

 

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[dknise]

This line right here tells me that you're willing to lie to make a point...

I can promise you that there is hardly *EVER* a time when Microsoft will fire a straight-out-of-college employee within a month of starting employment, and you want me to believe it happened 6 times in a month in one department? If you understood HR policies at large technology companies, you'd realize that nobody with any management experience at one of those companies would believe your claim above.

You're probably very familiar with the fact that Microsoft outsources a lot of it's jobs for projects in the form of on-site yellow badge contractors. Most of these companies are Indian based and all of them have different criteria than Microsoft as far as hire / fire. Many people's careers at Microsoft as a blue badge started with a yellow. When an FTE is having severe issues with a Microsoft liberal, the vendor company doesn't wait to replace them.

Sorry, but you've lost all credibility with me, and anything else you might say in this thread is highly suspect.

Cool. Don't read my posts.

In my opinion, all of your statements make sense in some way regarding choosing for college or university. However, I have been raised in the Netherlands, where the college and university experience may be different than yours. A major difference is that going to college or university in the Netherlands is relatively affordable, leading to less or no debt. I am in my final year and have no debt at all. Your arguments in favour of skipping college or university do make sense, but probably do not apply to all students.

Now, as I mentioned in my introduction thread too, I am doing a Master in Entrepreneurship and New Business Venturing. According to your theory, I am a lunatic who is wasting his time. However, this Master is teaching me how to identify business opportunities, teaches me necessary entrepreneurial skills, teaches me how to organize efficient start-ups, teaches me how to accelerate growth, when to sell the venture, how to attract financial resources, how to innovate. I get three guest lectures a week, of which a majority has started and is running serious businesses in terms of turnover and profit. This Master programme is running for three years now, but has already delivered its first millionaires, noted in the Dutch version of Forbes magazine (Quote). The university has its own incubator programme, helping you in your first years as an entrepreneur and in obtaining your degree.

Ah, I probably should have specified the scope of my argument. I can't knowingly speak about the quality of colleges outside of the United States, but the fact that it is affordable and the overall consensus in the US is that many European colleges are "more difficult," it sounds like a great deal. The US has been having what I consider to be a college education crisis over the last twenty years.

 

[dknise]

Send him JackEdwards college thread, too, to keep it balanced.

Is that the "GO TO COLLEGE" thread? I've seen it!

The experience from the school of hard knocks that you all can get on the street is more valuable to you than what a professor can teach you from a text book in most cases
....
I think business degrees are near worthless. At best, they are tie breakers. At worst, they're $100,000 boat anchors. Degrees in law, psychology, engineering, or other professions that require credentials are valuable and mandatory for those professions. If your intention is to get a B.A. in Liberal Arts, save your money. Apply at Subway with the rest of your graduating class, and save yourself $100k.

Said more elegantly than I'll be able to do for years. Thank you for your post. I think it speaks the world when you say lines like that and have reached the success you have. My last paragraph in my first post was about who to listen to and who not to (including myself), and you're the guy's advice I would take.

The most worthwhile business teachers are guys like MJ that cash out... need something to do with their time... and end up donating some time to the local community college. Those guys are rare... but are worth gold and show up in some unlikely places. What a great way to give back once you have made it over the mountain.

A critical distinction you will see about entrepreneurs that lend their skills to academia is that they don't drink the kool-aid. They will bring with them a healthy degree of skepticism and war scars that make their experience and their words worth studying.

I have a saying:
"Those that can do, those that can't teach, and those that did should teach."
I used to download all my books online for free, but then I realized for $30 I was getting the best possible insight into the mind of 30 years of knowledge and experience. The value taught by hard and true leaders in the industry through a book is priceless. The only thing that would be better is getting them in person!

 

[splok]

Just reread your post and yes I read it. You were saying that what I consider great advice now at 22 isn't necessarily great advice for someone who's 18 going into college, correct?

That and much more. It's not just the difference between myself and a younger me (or you), but it's that multiplied by all the differences between people. Just consider that everyone visiting this site is in a very different group than the "average" person, even if the "average" visitor of this site is a lurker who will never actually take any action toward their dreams, at least they're actively exploring and trying to learn.

I've had epiphany's where I've though man, I wish someone had told me that before I went and did this, I wish someone had told me that I when I was 16 or 17.

I think that a lot actually, and I almost always catch myself with the response, "Even if someone had told me, I wouldn't have known what the F*ck to do with that knowledge." The sad fact is, I probably did get told in some way or another, and the lessons I needed were so far outside of my reality at that point that it didn't sink in. We all probably did. Depending on what we were exposed to growing up and our innate personalities, someone may break out of their bubble very quickly, some may take decades, and some wouldn't leave their little bubble if you hurled briefcases full of hundreds at them.

Should we give students the best advice we can? Absolutely. But will they do anything useful with it? Most won't, but a few will, and that's fantastic. Realistically we're talking about fairly low percentages though.

Actually, I just realized that this probably never changes. I try to be as open as possible to advice and input from sources I respect, but in reality, I know the things that truly make the differences are the things I've discovered for myself (even though those are really just the summation of thousands of other bits of advice and info). Maybe the best we can hope for is just dropping a few breadcrumbs for others to stumble across in their own journeys.

 

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[dknise]

Actually, I just realized that this probably never changes. I try to be as open as possible to advice and input from sources I respect, but in reality, I know the things that truly make the differences are the things I've discovered for myself (even though those are really just the summation of thousands of other bits of advice and info). Maybe the best we can hope for is just dropping a few breadcrumbs for others to stumble across in their own journeys.

Brilliant example there, and I completely agree with you. Many of the lessons I learned came in the form of hearing an idea, a mindset, or philosophy from someone else. For many of these, it took months for the words they said to finally stick, but I can still remember what that advice I heard was and how I came to apply it. The Steve Jobs speech video is one of those. I wasn't quite certain for years how exactly it was going to connect together and I still don't! I'm just trusting that as he said, I can connect the dots only after I've gone out in the world and done it. He threw me a bone with that speech that now 4 years later I still think about all the time. I'm way to new in my journey to give nearly the experience and knowledge to the next generation that someone twenty plus years in their journey can, but I can at least throw a bone out there. That bone is to think deeply about who you learn from and listen to. Find the people who you aspire to be like and take their words and experiences to heart. I know reading MJ's book that I was about 2/3rds through the thought process of getting where he did, but hearing that other 1/3rd allowed me to save a ton of time and accelerate my position in life within a moment.

Thanks everyone for the great thread!

 

[The-J]

The-J: did your professor actually cash out or is he just a "serial entrepreneur in the startup scene"? I mean, startup scene doesnt necessarily imply success. I cringe when I think about the startup "scene" I got to know while I was in Berlin (its laughable, everybody has the next big consumer internet startup thing but nobody makes money)

As far as I know, he has never taken anything public or cashed out, but I can ask. He currently owns at least one business and is an active investor in two more.

But I'd rather listen to someone who has tried and failed 10 times than someone who has tried and succeeded once. Success doesn't teach you anything: it just makes you think you're smart. The more you fail, the less likely you are to lose it all in the end.

 

[dknise]

If you go to a *great* business school or engineering school, you *WILL* get them in person -- week after week, those who have ACTUALLY DONE IT will be there lecturing, teaching and mentoring.

...

Of course you can argue that some people can't get into a great business school...for them, I agree that college probably isn't the right choice, as they don't have the intellectual capacity, the motivation and/or the mentality to benefit from what you would get if you went to one of those schools.

I think we're actually in agreement then? I see no problem with the school experience you mentioned (unless you are acquiring debt and there are ways around that), but it is far far far from the norm. For the "above average student" who did not apply to a *great* school or did not get into a *great* school for some reason, I think the a self-study route is the way to go. Self study is not re-invent the wheel and teach yourself how to do everything. It's choose an education where all of your mentor's and teachers are the Brian Greene's, Warren Buffet's, and Larry Page's by diligently choosing who you learn from. If you could go around the country and pick and choose the best classes taught by the best professors by each, that would be the best experience of a life time. In person communication with them is clearly superior, but the next best (and affordable) option is to read their literature.

I still stand by my statement that telling people they absolutely have to pay to learn is not the right advice for anyone. Knowing how to learn could arguably be one of the most valuable skills to have. If you're only tool in the shed for achieving that is to fork over thousands of dollars, you have a pretty empty tool shed.


ps one thing I forgot to mention. Knowledge without application is completely useless. The route I went was to learn and gain real world work experience simultaneously. In a school environment, the students out-weight the teachers 100 to 1 (metaphorical). Going to work, applying the concepts your learning immediately, and surrounding yourself with true professionals reverses this ratio. You're now 1 student surrounded by many many more teachers who all have something you can learn from. The difference between success and failure is not getting an A on your paper or getting a C, it's failing your company's product or service and your reputation. Much more is at stake and if that doesn't put a fire under your a$$, I don't know what will.

 

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[theag]

Do you really believe there's no correlation between the program and the success of all those people? Just a ridiculous coincidence?

Do you really believe there's no correlation between the character traits you mentioned, which they had before going to these schools and which allowed them to get accepted there in the first place, and the success of all those people? Just a ridiculous coincidence?

 

[dknise]

All that said, let's cut to the chase -- you didn't want to go to college (or couldn't hack it), and now you try to justify your decision by generalizing that college isn't right for anyone. Unfortunately for you, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary -- for many people (not all, of course), college is the best choice. You obviously don't need to open your eyes to recognize that, but that's the nice thing about facts -- they're the same whether you acknowledge them or not.

Let's get this straight. I DID go to college for a year. I bought all school clothes and was more than excited to go to college. I joined a fraternity. I took 300 level math courses as a freshman. It was NOT what I expected and told it was.

For my post about what my actual experience was, here ya go:
https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/fastlane/42077-go-college-little-rant-4.html#post232730

Are you saying that myself, theag, Mark Zuck, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Richard Branson couldn't hack it? Not to put myself and theag in a group like those men, but do you actually think nobody drops out of college because it wasn't providing enough value for the cost? I'm sure Bill Gates would be way better off if he stayed in college learning an industry that didn't even exist yet. #sarcasm.
Forbes 400: The Self-Made Billionaire Entrepreneurs Who Said No To College - Forbes

 

[LamboMP]

I hope I never see another college thread again. It's getting real old.

Almost as old as the "gonna make a million in 10 month" type of threads.

 

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[PatrickP]

Ok is there a need here?

Maybe there already are tons of these and I just don't know about them.

A school to teach you how to start and run a business. I would bet there are literally millions of grandparents, fathers and mothers who see their children floundering, hopping from one job to another with little direction.

IMO Many would be happy to pay to send their child to a 6 months or 9 month intensive study which shows the participant how to actually get a legitimate business up and running.

To the people in this thread does this seem like something you would have possibly considered. Of course it would need a proven track record, testimonials etc.

As I say perhaps there already are thousands of these and I just don't know about it.

 

[theag]

Ok is there a need here?

Maybe there already are tons of these and I just don't know about them.

A school to teach you how to start and run a business. I would bet there are literally millions of grandparents, fathers and mothers who see their children floundering, hoping from one job to another with little direction. Many would be happy IMO to pay to send their child to a 6 months or 9 month intensive study which shows the participant how to actually get a legitimate business up and running.

To the people in this thread does this seem like something you would have possibly considered. Of course it would need a proven track record, testimonials etc.

As I say perhaps there already are thousands of these and I just don't know about it.

I think thats not a bad idea at all. Something like Ycombinator or these other incubator programs, but without the flashy "startup" non-sense.

 

[Runum]

Ok is there a need here?

Maybe there already are tons of these and I just don't know about them.

A school to teach you how to start and run a business. I would bet there are literally millions of grandparents, fathers and mothers who see their children floundering, hopping from one job to another with little direction.

IMO Many would be happy to pay to send their child to a 6 months or 9 month intensive study which shows the participant how to actually get a legitimate business up and running.

To the people in this thread does this seem like something you would have possibly considered. Of course it would need a proven track record, testimonials etc.

As I say perhaps there already are thousands of these and I just don't know about it.

IBISWorld: The Riskiest U.S. Industries - Business Insider

 

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[PatrickP]

Thanks runum. I looked at the link but I am not sure what you were saying about it.

 

[The-J]

A school to teach you how to start and run a business. I would bet there are literally millions of grandparents, fathers and mothers who see their children floundering, hopping from one job to another with little direction.

Babson College (a school to where I was accepted but ultimately did not decide to go) offers a four-year curriculum in which the students start businesses in their first year.

I don't quite know how effective the program is. If I had to take a guess, it's only marginally better than useless.

I believe there are boot camps available for entrepreneurs but I'm not sure, like a two-week program that has an end goal of someone starting a business. But two weeks is not nine months or four years.

IMO institutionalized post-secondary education that doesn't produce an accepted trade certification or a real degree (a four-year or a two-year that allows someone to transfer to a four-year school as a junior, graduate degrees etc) is useless. Why not just open a damn book and read? It costs $20, or you can go to the library and borrow for free.

 

[Runum]

Thanks runum. I looked at the link but I am not sure what you were saying about it.

Sorry to be vague. I thought the article was very timely because business and tech schools are rated by Business INSIDERS as a Top 10 riskiest business to be in. That could be a plus or a negative depending on the effectiveness of your response.

With any education system, you have to establish an accepted curriculum and have some successes for credibility. Most of the tech and biz schools also apply to various state and fed bodies for some certification so that their students can qualify for financial aid and the education institution may receive it(major source of revenue). The brief article pointed out that tech schools and junior colleges are recognizing this need and are about to flood the market with competition. This flood will be timed along side cuts to forecasted federal educational aid.

If you could design a school that did not have to rely on the fed aid for revenue, you may have an idea with wings. Maybe an elite type of biz school not aimed for the masses that focuses on smaller, more intense, instruction and direction?

 

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[PatrickP]

I wasn't thinking anything accredited.

Actually was a spur of the moment post that I thought I would try and get this thread headed in a positive direction

 

[Swoop]

Just reread your post and yes I read it. You were saying that what I consider great advice now at 22 isn't necessarily great advice for someone who's 18 going into college, correct? I've had epiphany's where I've though man, I wish someone had told me that before I went and did this, I wish someone had told me that I when I was 16 or 17. My hope is to express what I'm thinking and maybe a person out there will catch it and agree, they will be younger, and I can save them the turmoil and uncertainty phase I went through.


I agree and I'm a huge fan of self responsibility, but it's a double standard in that I don't really feel kids are fully responsible at that age. I was convinced the same thing about college because I had never heard of an alternative and I hadn't been out on my own where I had to figure out how to learn on my own.


Nah, I thought it'd help me play catch up for work but it just took away 4 hours of my time twice a week haha. If the author had been there like I thought it was going to be... it would have been well worth the experience.


Hey Swoop, I hope your brother figures out what he wants to do in life! Very intelligent people often don't being like told what to do and he may be one of them. The video that made me leave college was Steve Jobs commencement speech at Stanford (ironic that it was at a college by a college dropout haha). That speech will eternally say things better than I ever could, so send it to your brother and see what he thinks. I lost motivation and drive in college, but when I left, I was able to do what Steve Jobs was talking about. I could learn what I wanted to, when I wanted to and at the pace I wanted to. Your brother might be that type of person too.

I think the first line of my original post says it all "It's no secret... I hate college." I'm definitely biased, but I think I am JUST as biased as the educational system is FOR college as I am against. Like theag said, the kids I'll be talking to have already decided they aren't going, and my local school system has abandoned them and basically told them they're worthless and with no future. My goal is to convince them otherwise. I can't make them read or get them to give themselves a marketable skill set, but I can try and give them back what the educational system here has taken from them. I think it'd be great if all the options could be explored by school councilors, but the fact of the matter is they went to college and really only see it one way. I really only see it one way. It's like taking the red or the blue pill in the Matrix and once you take one it's hard to look back.

Thanks for the advice for my brother. I hope he can figure out what he wants to do before getting too discouraged. He is very smart, but also unfocused and immature. I'm going to talk to my parents this weekend when I visit about if pushing him to finish college just for the sake of it is really the best approach. Im gong to send him that video, and check it out myself; i've never seen it. Thanks for the suggestion.


Differences in opinion about college aside, it is great that you are talking to these kids. I hope that your words will inspire some of them to go out and be successful. Hopefully in the future our schools will change and your services wont be needed.

 

[Runum]

I wasn't thinking anything accredited.

Actually was a spur of the moment post that I thought I would try and get this thread headed in a positive direction

Stanford grads' firms equal 10th biggest economy

Stanford grads' firms equal 10th biggest economy - San Francisco Business Times

 

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[Skys]

How old are you Dknise?

 

[mayana]

Stanford grads' firms equal 10th biggest economy

Stanford grads' firms equal 10th biggest economy - San Francisco Business Times

That's interesting!

 

[Runum]

That's interesting!

Thanks. To me it's very interesting because of the free biz classes that they are conducting right now. It's pretty cool that they are successful and do not have to offer these. The creativity class has 35k students signed up world wide.

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/ed...lasses-will-help-you-build-your-business.html

 

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[mayana]

Thanks. To me it's very interesting because of the free biz classes that they are conducting right now. It's pretty cool that they are successful and do not have to offer these. The creativity class has 35k students signed up world wide.

16 Free fall Stanford classes that will help you build your business

I love this concept. I am enrolled in the Introduction to Databases one that they offer on Coursera.

 

[dknise]

How old are you Dknise?

22, you?

 

[faromic]

I'm entering this conversation a little late, but I think there are too many people in college that would be suited better doing something else with their time and money. I remember hearing that too when I was in grade school. Get good grades so you can get a good job. A lot of people just blindly follow this path without even thinking about what they want. Worse many people go to college and major in such broad topics like communications or history or who knows what that it's almost useless. The large majority end up getting a job doing either something different or something they could have done without a college degree and a little self-learning. And a lot of these jobs aren't high paying so they're stuck with a relatively low paying job with school loans which traps them.

I think there needs to be some kind of movement (and believe there will be within 5 to 10 years) where employers don't require the college degree from potential employees. Everytime you want to "change careers" you have to go into more debt for more targeted occupational training. It's crazy. Meanwhile, all these internet courses are popping up and people can learn a ton of stuff on their own.
Sooner or later the model is going to have to change to give people a chance to get a decent job.

I know many people that think "school is over and I never have to learn again" once they graduate. As we all here know, that's simply not true. It's the key to success.

 

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[Runum]

I think there needs to be some kind of movement (and believe there will be within 5 to 10 years) where employers don't require the college degree from potential employees. Sooner or later the model is going to have to change to give people a chance to get a decent job.

With the seemingly over abundance of college educated, under employed population we have now, I don't see this happening. Employers have their pick right now and unless consumer demands increase I don't see this changing any time soon.

 

[PatrickP]

Agreed!

That is like saying with the number of business failures there are today, consumers are going to have to change what sort of products they will buy.