Don't Ask, Give

[Panos Daras]

Sorry MJ, but I have seen agencies / freelancers try to apply this method without any strong results. I have tried applying it myself at times, also without any strong results. So I am vehemently opposed to it, I don’t think it makes business sense or teaches people to start with the right mindset.

I am actually curious, is there anyone who does this here who is successful? Ie, growing a successful web design agency (>$200K+/yr revenues) in this case? Let them step forward…

I know several people like @RicardoGrande from Fox Web School who try this highly personalized, low volume approach (case in point:
Post in thread 'Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time'
HOT! - SIDE HUSTLE - WEB DESIGN - Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time)
. Most end up working days, months, to send 2,500 emails, and land 3-6 clients. In the same time, I’m sending 30,000 emails, and land 15 clients or so.

There are several problems:

1) Most cold outreach gets ignored or not even opened. Let’s say 60% get opened. Out of those that get opened maybe another 50% get read and given a fair hearing. This means that for every 10 people you contact, 7 won’t even bother… you’ll be spending time to create mockups for 7 people who won’t even consider your work. Why? Why not “rack the shotgun” first, see who is interested, and then invest in those who bothered to raise their hands?

2) I know I’ll receive some hatred for this, but priority number 1 in business is staying alive and making money, not serving people. If you don’t stay alive, nobody will be getting served anyway. Which means you need to make money, from people who are happy to pay you, without expecting you to stand on your head for it.

3) While you’re busy creating the mockups, I’m busy contacting 1,000s of people at once. Even with 1% conversion rate vs 10%, who will have more clients, and therefore more money if I contact 1000x the number of people you can contact with the GIVE first approch?

4) Every serious business takes first, and then gives. I go to a lawyer, I pay them, then I get served. I go to a doctor, I pay, then they treat me. I come on the fastlane forum, I pay first, then my ad gets served. Right? So why should I, as a business, devalue myself by doing what is essentially free work without getting paid first?

5) If someone offers to do something for free for me or gives me something free unsolicited, unless I already trust them and they’re not a stranger, I think “loser”. So do other people, because they know important people don’t do free work. They’re important.

6) You should never sell before you qualify. How do you know the guy needs or wants a website? Let’s say someone redid a design of my website, and emailed it to me, fully complete. I like it, and he claims it will increase conversions. I still can’t be bothered because I don’t really use my website for selling, so 50% improvement on 0 is still 0 lol… the poor guy wasted days of his life slaving away for nothing because he didn’t qualify me.

If this method works so well, I want to know where all the successful people using it are hiding? Because from what I see, the graveyards are littered with their bodies.

You make some good points but I disagree. So yes indeed the person shall like your offering and it would be something they would consider buying as you said.

Also as you said, if you send a "spam" email/ DM with something valuable in it, but nobody would read it, that is stupid. The same applies if you send a free gift and is never delivered. It is like it never happened. And indeed in these cases, you wasted your time.

That being said, giving something for free is so good as a marketing strategy that it could be considered evil.
An unheard-of company with a motto "Don't be Evil" is using it.

Friggin GOOGLE!
Google offers a multitude of FREE services like Drive, Gmail, and Google Maps. They provide immense value (opinions may vary) before they ever ask for anything.
But yeah I think it does not work.

Don't give...ASK!

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Sorry MJ, but I have seen agencies / freelancers try to apply this method without any strong results. I have tried applying it myself at times, also without any strong results. So I am vehemently opposed to it, I don’t think it makes business sense or teaches people to start with the right mindset.

I am actually curious, is there anyone who does this here who is successful? Ie, growing a successful web design agency (>$200K+/yr revenues) in this case? Let them step forward…

I know several people like @RicardoGrande from Fox Web School who try this highly personalized, low volume approach (case in point:
Post in thread 'Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time'
HOT! - SIDE HUSTLE - WEB DESIGN - Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time)
. Most end up working days, months, to send 2,500 emails, and land 3-6 clients. In the same time, I’m sending 30,000 emails, and land 15 clients or so.

There are several problems:

1) Most cold outreach gets ignored or not even opened. Let’s say 60% get opened. Out of those that get opened maybe another 50% get read and given a fair hearing. This means that for every 10 people you contact, 7 won’t even bother… you’ll be spending time to create mockups for 7 people who won’t even consider your work. Why? Why not “rack the shotgun” first, see who is interested, and then invest in those who bothered to raise their hands?

2) I know I’ll receive some hatred for this, but priority number 1 in business is staying alive and making money, not serving people. If you don’t stay alive, nobody will be getting served anyway. Which means you need to make money, from people who are happy to pay you, without expecting you to stand on your head for it.

3) While you’re busy creating the mockups, I’m busy contacting 1,000s of people at once. Even with 1% conversion rate vs 10%, who will have more clients, and therefore more money if I contact 1000x the number of people you can contact with the GIVE first approch?

4) Every serious business takes first, and then gives. I go to a lawyer, I pay them, then I get served. I go to a doctor, I pay, then they treat me. I come on the fastlane forum, I pay first, then my ad gets served. Right? So why should I, as a business, devalue myself by doing what is essentially free work without getting paid first?

5) If someone offers to do something for free for me or gives me something free unsolicited, unless I already trust them and they’re not a stranger, I think “loser”. So do other people, because they know important people don’t do free work. They’re important.

6) You should never sell before you qualify. How do you know the guy needs or wants a website? Let’s say someone redid a design of my website, and emailed it to me, fully complete. I like it, and he claims it will increase conversions. I still can’t be bothered because I don’t really use my website for selling, so 50% improvement on 0 is still 0 lol… the poor guy wasted days of his life slaving away for nothing because he didn’t qualify me.

If this method works so well, I want to know where all the successful people using it are hiding? Because from what I see, the graveyards are littered with their bodies.

Congrats, you apply the same marketing strategy as Nigerian con artists and email phishing scammers.

My approach was for those who never sold anything—for beginners looking to get their feet wet—not an established web agency.

Once I had a web portfolio, I didn't need to market any longer as I had plenty of referrals.

Also, I don't view the effectiveness of this as a quantity approach, but quality.

This strategy I described has worked on me multiple times (just like @amp0193 reported as well) and I get dozens of cold emails daily ... delete, delete, delete.

I wouldn't do a mock unless I absolutely I had the lead locked down and I knew I had a guaranteed open. And "mocks" in this day and age would literally take me a few minutes.

An example of this would be visiting a nearby restaurant and then sending an email, "My visit to your restaurant the other day..." Or for example, my chiropractor. His website is atrocious. Will he open an email from his patient, a patient who tells him his website sucks?

In my tiny little world here, I could have a half-dozen clients in a matter of weeks using this approach. And the "problem" of getting off the ground with experience and a portfolio, solved.

Zero to 1 is the biggest problem most people have.

The hallmark of high value is specificity.

When I open an email and the content is high specificity, it gets my attention. So my "bad advice" is merely recommending what you just recommended.

I got 7 cold-emails this morning, all using the same boiler plate subjects, boiler-plate content, blah blah.

All 7 of them were deleted because I could tell they were "shot-gun" with zero specificity to my business, and my needs.

Does the "shot-gun" approach work as BD screams? I'm sure it does -- all the scammers use it, so I know it works.

However, if you've been in business for X years and you still NEED to blast your message everywhere indiscriminately, it inherently tells me you lack referrals, and if you lack referrals, that indicates a more pressing problem.

 

[futurePorscheDr]

Sorry MJ, but I have seen agencies / freelancers try to apply this method without any strong results. I have tried applying it myself at times, also without any strong results. So I am vehemently opposed to it, I don’t think it makes business sense or teaches people to start with the right mindset.

I am actually curious, is there anyone who does this here who is successful? Ie, growing a successful web design agency (>$200K+/yr revenues) in this case? Let them step forward…

I know several people like @RicardoGrande from Fox Web School who try this highly personalized, low volume approach (case in point:
Post in thread 'Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time'
HOT! - SIDE HUSTLE - WEB DESIGN - Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time)
. Most end up working days, months, to send 2,500 emails, and land 3-6 clients. In the same time, I’m sending 30,000 emails, and land 15 clients or so.

There are several problems:

1) Most cold outreach gets ignored or not even opened. Let’s say 60% get opened. Out of those that get opened maybe another 50% get read and given a fair hearing. This means that for every 10 people you contact, 7 won’t even bother… you’ll be spending time to create mockups for 7 people who won’t even consider your work. Why? Why not “rack the shotgun” first, see who is interested, and then invest in those who bothered to raise their hands?

2) I know I’ll receive some hatred for this, but priority number 1 in business is staying alive and making money, not serving people. If you don’t stay alive, nobody will be getting served anyway. Which means you need to make money, from people who are happy to pay you, without expecting you to stand on your head for it.

3) While you’re busy creating the mockups, I’m busy contacting 1,000s of people at once. Even with 1% conversion rate vs 10%, who will have more clients, and therefore more money if I contact 1000x the number of people you can contact with the GIVE first approch?

4) Every serious business takes first, and then gives. I go to a lawyer, I pay them, then I get served. I go to a doctor, I pay, then they treat me. I come on the fastlane forum, I pay first, then my ad gets served. Right? So why should I, as a business, devalue myself by doing what is essentially free work without getting paid first?

5) If someone offers to do something for free for me or gives me something free unsolicited, unless I already trust them and they’re not a stranger, I think “loser”. So do other people, because they know important people don’t do free work. They’re important.

6) You should never sell before you qualify. How do you know the guy needs or wants a website? Let’s say someone redid a design of my website, and emailed it to me, fully complete. I like it, and he claims it will increase conversions. I still can’t be bothered because I don’t really use my website for selling, so 50% improvement on 0 is still 0 lol… the poor guy wasted days of his life slaving away for nothing because he didn’t qualify me.

If this method works so well, I want to know where all the successful people using it are hiding? Because from what I see, the graveyards are littered with their bodies.

All really good points.

I totally agree with OP on the point of "Don't ask". To start with, you should be offering, with emphasize on what you can do for them.

To add in what's already been discussed, maybe in addition to "offer", you can also start to "negotiate" or "deal" or "qualify".

I agree with Black Dragon that maybe the emphasize should not be on "giving", more on "demonstrating", "searching". Of course, it has to be based on what the business is doing.

In any case, definitely agree with OP that the most common approach of asking is no good.

 

[shubham___3011]

Woah had never thought about this and thank you so much for putting this up

Sorry MJ, but I have seen agencies / freelancers try to apply this method without any strong results. I have tried applying it myself at times, also without any strong results. So I am vehemently opposed to it, I don’t think it makes business sense or teaches people to start with the right mindset.

I am actually curious, is there anyone who does this here who is successful? Ie, growing a successful web design agency (>$200K+/yr revenues) in this case? Let them step forward…

I know several people like @RicardoGrande from Fox Web School who try this highly personalized, low volume approach (case in point:
Post in thread 'Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time'
HOT! - SIDE HUSTLE - WEB DESIGN - Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time)
. Most end up working days, months, to send 2,500 emails, and land 3-6 clients. In the same time, I’m sending 30,000 emails, and land 15 clients or so.

There are several problems:

1) Most cold outreach gets ignored or not even opened. Let’s say 60% get opened. Out of those that get opened maybe another 50% get read and given a fair hearing. This means that for every 10 people you contact, 7 won’t even bother… you’ll be spending time to create mockups for 7 people who won’t even consider your work. Why? Why not “rack the shotgun” first, see who is interested, and then invest in those who bothered to raise their hands?

2) I know I’ll receive some hatred for this, but priority number 1 in business is staying alive and making money, not serving people. If you don’t stay alive, nobody will be getting served anyway. Which means you need to make money, from people who are happy to pay you, without expecting you to stand on your head for it.

3) While you’re busy creating the mockups, I’m busy contacting 1,000s of people at once. Even with 1% conversion rate vs 10%, who will have more clients, and therefore more money if I contact 1000x the number of people you can contact with the GIVE first approch?

4) Every serious business takes first, and then gives. I go to a lawyer, I pay them, then I get served. I go to a doctor, I pay, then they treat me. I come on the fastlane forum, I pay first, then my ad gets served. Right? So why should I, as a business, devalue myself by doing what is essentially free work without getting paid first?

5) If someone offers to do something for free for me or gives me something free unsolicited, unless I already trust them and they’re not a stranger, I think “loser”. So do other people, because they know important people don’t do free work. They’re important.

6) You should never sell before you qualify. How do you know the guy needs or wants a website? Let’s say someone redid a design of my website, and emailed it to me, fully complete. I like it, and he claims it will increase conversions. I still can’t be bothered because I don’t really use my website for selling, so 50% improvement on 0 is still 0 lol… the poor guy wasted days of his life slaving away for nothing because he didn’t qualify me.

If this method works so well, I want to know where all the successful people using it are hiding? Because from what I see, the graveyards are littered with their bodies.

 

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[shubham___3011]

Congrats, you apply the same marketing strategy as Nigerian con artists and email phishing scammers.

My approach was for those who never sold anything—for beginners looking to get their feet wet—not an established web agency.

Once I had a web portfolio, I didn't need to market any longer as I had plenty of referrals.

Also, I don't view the effectiveness of this as a quantity approach, but quality.

This strategy I described has worked on me multiple times (just like @amp0193 reported as well) and I get dozens of cold emails daily ... delete, delete, delete.

I wouldn't do a mock unless I absolutely I had the lead locked down and I knew I had a guaranteed open. And "mocks" in this day and age would literally take me a few minutes.

An example of this would be visiting a nearby restaurant and then sending an email, "My visit to your restaurant the other day..." Or for example, my chiropractor. His website is atrocious. Will he open an email from his patient, a patient who tells him his website sucks?

In my tiny little world here, I could have a half-dozen clients in a matter of weeks using this approach. And the "problem" of getting off the ground with experience and a portfolio, solved.

Zero to 1 is the biggest problem most people have.



When I open an email and the content is high specificity, it gets my attention. So my "bad advice" is merely recommending what you just recommended.

I got 7 cold-emails this morning, all using the same boiler plate subjects, boiler-plate content, blah blah.

All 7 of them were deleted because I could tell they were "shot-gun" with zero specificity to my business, and my needs.

Does the "shot-gun" approach work as BD screams? I'm sure it does -- all the scammers use it, so I know it works.

However, if you've been in business for X years and you still NEED to blast your message everywhere indiscriminately, it inherently tells me you lack referrals, and if you lack referrals, that indicates a more pressing problem.

So the take away is you can use this approach to go from zero to 1 and when scaling, you will need to be very specific with the need of that person/business?

 

[amp0193]

Let's break down a cold email pitch I got this morning.

This one is better than most that I get, as it's from a legitimate agency that is not just starting out. But it's still awful.



What would "giving" be in this context?

Maybe in this case it would be a 1-3 solid and specific pitch ideas "for free". Here's what this would do:

1. Show me your PR ability. Can you understand my brand, and how it fits into the zeitgeist, and can you come up with a couple of quick creative and original pitches with a unique angle and great hook? (probably not... because your subject line was "question Sarah"... no reporter is going to respond to lame bullshit like that...) And if the sample pitches are exceptional... I could go and flesh them out myself, and go pitch them myself (but I'm busy and no expert on PR), but more than likely I might say "that sounds great, let's try it".


Square 1 though is having a truly exceptional product or service. If you can't deliver at the highest level... well the best pitch in the world isn't going to get you any business.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Congrats, you apply the same marketing strategy as Nigerian con artists and email phishing scammers.

It is a great honor to be associated with these fine gentlemen

(just kidding lol)

My approach was for those who never sold anything—for beginners looking to get their feet wet—not an established web agency.

Once I had a web portfolio, I didn't need to market any longer as I had plenty of referrals.

This is a good point, but does this happen nowadays? The web design field is now extremely crowded. The same is true for most other digital agencies, regardless of service. This wasn't the case when you did web design, it's a very very different market today. Many agencies out there have amazing case studies, social proof, testimonials, whatever you want... yet they still struggle to get new clients. Or get barely enough to stay afloat.

Not to mention the pressure that exists on price. What makes you think that your web agency would be different once you had a portfolio?

Also, I don't view the effectiveness of this as a quantity approach, but quality.

I agree, quality matters, but so does quantity. Quality matters most in terms of attracting high-quality businesses. In my case, there is no difference quality-wise between the businesses that are attracted with mass outreach vs personalized outreach – churn rate is the same, spending is the same, client quality is the same. The only difference would be response rates, which would be higher with personalized, but not worth the effort because you lose too much on quantity.

Here's an example of mass outreach, going out to coaches who are active on Instagram with content and have at least 1 podcast appearance:

I hope you're wrapping up a fantastic week MJ [because it's friday, this personalization can be done at scale]! I've taken some time to review the content you've put out recently on Instagram – it's truly top-notch. It did catch my attention that your reach doesn't reflect the caliber of your content.

Are you interested to impact a lot more people?

I only ask because I've noticed certain strategies missing from your approach – strategies that have significantly boosted organic growth and credibility for many of the coaches our PR agency worked for including X, Y, Z, and Z2 [household names like Jay Shetty].

Given the exceptional content you produce, I genuinely believe you could amplify your impact and make a difference in a lot more people's lives.

Would you be available for a 15-minute conversation? I'd like to offer an overview of a potential strategy at no cost, expand on the elements you're currently missing out on, and if it feels right, explore the next steps together.

Would you reply if you were a coach interested to impact more people who posted actively on Instagram and were obsessed about "making a difference" in people's lives, as most coaches are, or at minimum claim to be?

I think you dislike mass outreach simply because you haven't seen how the real pros do it, just the Nigerian scammers who don't even target it well.

In my tiny little world here, I could have a half-dozen clients in a matter of weeks using this approach. And the "problem" of getting off the ground with experience and a portfolio, solved.

Zero to 1 is the biggest problem most people have.

Right, but this approach is only available if you're US-based and maybe in a few other areas like the UK. If you need to acquire your customers 100% online, then it's a different ballgame. And I'd warrant to say that most newbies on the fastlane forum are in this bucket.

However, if you've been in business for X years and you still NEED to blast your message everywhere indiscriminately, it inherently tells me you lack referrals, and if you lack referrals, that indicates a more pressing problem.

When did I say "indiscriminately"? No, your targeting should be on point. But yes, you should blast your email to your entire available target market to whom its relevant, if possible and you can handle the inflow of clients that it would bring. Why not?

As for referrals... Less than 5% of my business is referrals. Most of my customers don't refer. Recently I've had one guy who was with us since 8 months ago or so, refer another company, and that company refer a third one. The result of that, is that they're all worried now that they will be competing against each other over the same audience, because they all offer the same service lol.

I've never found referrals useful. Maybe if you meet people face to face, go to dinner with them, etc., then they might refer. But not really for a digital business that doesn't rely on face-to-face networking. So in this situation, how am I to take advantage of referrals?

 

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[rpeck90]

Yes but... it may not be a good idea to market yourself as the "Are you looking to protect your assets with a Cook Islands trust" guy because it narrows your appeal. Then the difficulty becomes how do I find or get found by all those guys looking to get a Cook Islands trust (and there aren't that many to start with)?

Some doors are only opened by referrals. For example, if you wanted to open a Cook Islands trust for Bill Gates, the only way that deal would get through is if someone from Bill's network introduced you. Bill simply doesn't work with losers outside of his network (and by definition, if you're outside his network, you ARE a loser lol), regardless of what you'd write in your cold email or say in a cold call.

The example was obviously protracted but point taken. When you start dealing with higher level people in any industry, my experience is they tend to have a narrower focus.

For example, a software company could say "we make apps" or they could "make apps to help banks secure their backend digital infrastructure in X way". The former opens the door to the myriad of lower tier projects to make a restaurant table booking app etc, the latter a very specific set of industry-specific features that could be mission critical. The important point is the latter requires at least some level of specialized knowledge (possibly also industry connections) which creates barriers that others are not willing, or able, to surmount - akin to the Bill Gates example you shared.

Now Alex can do anything.

I would disagree with this point. A lot of these gurus are playing to the peanut gallery. The reason is many young men (and some women, but it's mostly guys) are drawn to people like this because they promise an "out" from the 9-5 slave grind. Andrew Tate was one of the more recent ones and there have been a long line preceding him.

Whilst you and I share this ideal too, the difference is we actually committed to putting in the work rather than watching some guy online detailing what are very basic points. Most people haven't read a book in years, are devoid of any sort of intellectual curiosity and are, consequently, lost. They want to be entertained. Hormozi, and others, provide that entertainment under the guise of business growth.

If the content you're consuming is not aimed at helping you achieve some level of advantage, it's likely a waste of time. Not to say you should forgo entertainment but there is a difference between watching videos on success and actually doing it.

So my "bad advice" is merely recommending what you just recommended.

With respect, I still think it was bad advice in the context through which it was posted. Generally, it's good advice, especially to young people coming into the world of work. But to give the idea that you can just make website mockups and you'll start getting quality responses is not likely going to be helpful. Regardless of how personal an approach is, its value is still going to depend on the situation. I see you later clarified this, so I apologise if my retort was abrupt.

For context, I actually did exactly what you suggested with the guy who runs Men's Clothing & Formal Menswear | Charles Tyrwhitt - he and his wife are heavy hitters in the UK and I was fortunate enough to get a meeting with him when trying to raise money for a SaaS thing I was working on 10 years ago. I met him in his offices in London, he didn't really give a shit and I went back up north without any investment. When I got back, I did a whole mockup for his site and sent it via email and said I could do that sort of work if he needed it. Zero reply. I was able to get the meeting in the first place because I told him that he was an inspiration to me and made me quit my job. Not entirely true but most people are vain and it worked. He famously publishes his email for "feedback from his customers". Same guy invested into Feefo and a social media company, both of which got bought for £10m's.

A funny tidbit for @Black_Dragon43 - that Nick guy actually told me he was "one of the biggest junk mailers in the UK" (verbatim)... so perhaps the carpet-bombing approach worked for him ;-)

If a free mockup is part of a prospecting / lead gen process (basically what @Black_Dragon43 was saying about warming leads up first), then, yes, it may have a lot of value if you have the time & inclination to do it. However, if someone just sent me a mockup for a website unsolicited, I would presume them to be struggling or brand new. I wouldn't expect anyone who's established to be doing it unless they clearly state they need the work.

 

[BizyDad]

The hallmark of high value is specificity. "Can I help you with financial advice?" is to "Are you looking to protect your assets with a Cook Islands trust?" as a hotdog stand is to a gourmet restaurant. The more specific you can afford to be whilst retaining relevancy, the more valuable your offer. On top of this, the most valuable people tell you - tersely - what they do. "We set up Cook Islands trusts to help millionaires protect their assets" vs "We're a boutique financial advice company in X town with Y employees. We help Z type employees boost their retirement savings with ___." --> the latter will never elevate because it's too broad and will mostly attract casual clients.

Slight disagreement.

The hallmark is not specificity. Most entreprenuers don't know what to Cook Islands trust is. Therefore, saying something that they don't know about is not actually specificity. Because they don't know what you're talking about.

And that's what makes this work. It's giving the appearance of specificity. It's also a display of knowledge. It's a credibility builder.

A business mentor of mine said if you want responses, be vague but interesting, without appearing vague.

If you were to email me, I would "have to" email you back to find out what a Cook Islands trust even is...

And thus, the conversation has begun.

So in this situation, how am I to take advantage of referrals?

I find it hard to believe that you can't take advantage of word of mouth marketing.

There are no centers of influence who can refer to you your kind of clients?

 

[rpeck90]

Slight disagreement.

The hallmark is not specificity. Most entreprenuers don't know what to Cook Islands trust is. Therefore, saying something that they don't know about is not actually specificity. Because they don't know what you're talking about.

And that's what makes this work. It's giving the appearance of specificity. It's also a display of knowledge. It's a credibility builder.

A business mentor of mine said if you want responses, be vague but interesting, without appearing vague.

If you were to email me, I would "have to" email you back to find out what a Cook Islands trust even is...

And thus, the conversation has begun.

That was part of my point --> operating at the higher levels, you need to be able to show you know things the other party does not. If you're able to present it in a matter-of-fact way, it piques their interest and they bite.

I only mentioned the Cook Islands thing because I read it on Twitter the other day. Didn't know about it myself before then

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

I find it hard to believe that you can't take advantage of word of mouth marketing.

There are no centers of influence who can refer to you your kind of clients?

Yes there are, but I haven't figured out how to approach them successfully. I can't just be like "Hey, nice to meet you. I'd like to give you a chance to install an additional profit center for your business that takes 0 work from you and will provide a steady-stream of 100% profit. All you'd have to do is introduce me to your clients for agency growth and I'd pay you an ongoing x% referral fee. Let's start with one client of your choice, as a test, shall we?"

I did have some ideas about running my webinar (or make it into a seminar) to their clients, that way I can have them add value to their client-base that they couldn't add without me, and I get to pitch the clients at the end + they'd get a share of any clients that came through.

I guess that the issue is that I don't have experience with it, no one taught be how to approach or do this type of deal, which is slowing me down

I'm the kind of person who needs to know the steps in advance... not an exact script, but a strategy. How to open the convo, what to propose, etc.

 

[Andy Black]

Yes there are, but I haven't figured out how to approach them successfully. I can't just be like "Hey, nice to meet you. I'd like to give you a chance to install an additional profit center for your business that takes 0 work from you and will provide a steady-stream of 100% profit. All you'd have to do is introduce me to your clients for agency growth and I'd pay you an ongoing x% referral fee. Let's start with one client of your choice, as a test, shall we?"

I did have some ideas about running my webinar (or make it into a seminar) to their clients, that way I can have them add value to their client-base that they couldn't add without me, and I get to pitch the clients at the end + they'd get a share of any clients that came through.

I guess that the issue is that I don't have experience with it, no one taught be how to approach or do this type of deal, which is slowing me down

I'm the kind of person who needs to know the steps in advance... not an exact script, but a strategy. How to open the convo, what to propose, etc.

How can you get on their radar?

How can you start a conversation in such a way they get something of value and reply with a Thank You?

What can you give them that's a "show, don't tell" of the value you can provide?





I used to bounce around in Facebook groups where I'm a peer (e.g. groups for people growing memberships or courses). People in those groups would *invite* me into their groups as an expert.

An example is a guy who ran a Facebook group of 14,000+ PT instructors. "Hi everyone. I'm delighted to have Andy in the group. He's an expert at Google Ads and can help you get more leads from Google."

He gets a resource for his group for free, I get introduced by the group owner.

Win-win. (Except PT instructors aren't a great fit for me so I gradually got quieter in that group.)

 

[BizyDad]

Yes there are, but I haven't figured out how to approach them successfully. I can't just be like "Hey, nice to meet you. I'd like to give you a chance to install an additional profit center for your business that takes 0 work from you and will provide a steady-stream of 100% profit. All you'd have to do is introduce me to your clients for agency growth and I'd pay you an ongoing x% referral fee. Let's start with one client of your choice, as a test, shall we?"

I did have some ideas about running my webinar (or make it into a seminar) to their clients, that way I can have them add value to their client-base that they couldn't add without me, and I get to pitch the clients at the end + they'd get a share of any clients that came through.

I guess that the issue is that I don't have experience with it, no one taught be how to approach or do this type of deal, which is slowing me down

I'm the kind of person who needs to know the steps in advance... not an exact script, but a strategy. How to open the convo, what to propose, etc.

Ok, first of all...

You literally just listed 2 strategies that absolutely work "in the real world". Shut up and do it. Stop talking like a noob. You're supposed to be a heavy hitter.

And second of all...

The second strategy, the one you seem to like better, involves Giving first.

So you pretty much demonstrated/proved the point that Andy and MJ and others were saying... which you had been arguing against.

vehemently opposed to it,

You were against it, before you were for it. And you call me the politician?

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

For example, a software company could say "we make apps" or they could "make apps to help banks secure their backend digital infrastructure in X way". The former opens the door to the myriad of lower tier projects to make a restaurant table booking app etc, the latter a very specific set of industry-specific features that could be mission critical.

I agree, but what I'm trying to say is that is that you can't force that kind of specificity/niching down.

You can't put your banner up tomorrow saying "we make apps to help banks secure their backend digital infrastructure" and start hunting after banks. At least I have big reservations that this approach would be successful. Maybe it would, if you got a co-founder with expertise in the banking sector, so you could use their expertise / case studies to get a foot in the door. But even then, you'd need to learn how banks buy their security solutions, the sales process itself can be a big challenge as well at that level.

So how could you build that business starting from scratch? You really can't. The only "real" way I see of doing that is to get a job in banking, rise up, and at some point when your network grows, go into that. I'm more of a build something from scratch kinda guy personally.

How can you start a conversation in such a way they get something of value and reply with a Thank You?

Hunt down their LinkedIn posts, website and online presence for a genuine super-specific compliment I can give them to build some rapport. "John, saw you took part in the Bath Half Marathon last week, that's really cool, congrats for it. What charity did you run for? I ran it myself about 9 years ago." Then chat a little about it. Then move the discussion to the fact we both serve agencies. Then ask him if he provides any additional value to agencies aside from [service]. Then propose him the webinar.

You literally just listed 2 strategies that absolutely work "in the real world". Shut up and do it. Stop talking like a noob. You're supposed to be a heavy hitter.

Discipline, I love it!

You were against it, before you were for it. And you call me the politician?

Is the Trojan Horse an act of giving too? I see it as a traffic generation strategy. I already run the webinar for myself, so I wouldn't create anything new for them. More like I'd put their logo as well on the material, give them the emails to send to their clients to promote it (pretty much the same emails I send myself), and then run it. So there is almost no free work involved here, unless you call me running my webinar free work, which I do anyway, just not with their traffic, as part of my own marketing. I'm against doing free samples, etc., because I'd rather invest that time in my own marketing, which will keep paying me, than in doing one-off work for people who aren't paying to begin with, most of whom would ignore it anyway.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Oh, the other issue @BizyDad is that... I could go after partnerships... or I could go after hiring another team member. Or I could go after improving my Learning Platform. Or I could seek to expand the volume of outreach. But as much as I'd love to, I can't go for ALL these things at once and prioritizing is hard. As Putin is rumored to have said... you can't drink all the vodka in the world, but it's worth trying

 

[Andy Black]

Hunt down their LinkedIn posts, website and online presence for a genuine super-specific compliment I can give them to build some rapport. "John, saw you took part in the Bath Half Marathon last week, that's really cool, congrats for it. What charity did you run for? I ran it myself about 9 years ago." Then chat a little about it. Then move the discussion to the fact we both serve agencies. Then ask him if he provides any additional value to agencies aside from [service]. Then propose him the webinar.

I like this. It's natural and how I chat with folks.

Personally, I'd be more interested in building a relationship and seeing where it goes than pitching something.

Maybe the webinar isn't the best win-win for them? Maybe some small thing could work better as a test to see if you're both a good fit? Maybe you can give them some tip or asset they can send to their list that makes them look good and brings them revenue (as per my opening post)?

 

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[BizyDad]

You can't put your banner up tomorrow saying "we make apps to help banks secure their backend digital infrastructure" and start hunting after banks.

Funny enough...

I know a guy doing EXACTLY that.

He used to be a developer at my little agency back when I first joined the team. He got a development job elsewhere, then another. Along the way (I don't want to give away his specific value offering) but he realized an existing insecurity in the tech stack of places like banks and hospitals.

He built an app to address that. Launched the company a year ago or so.

The sales process isn't all that different than the one you already know...

Hey Bank person, how does your company address xyz vulnerability? You DON'T?!?! Maybe we should talk.

(Side note, talking to him makes me not trust banks even more, especially little ones).

Alternatively, Hey Bank person, how does your company address xyz vulnerability? Oh, you use Big Boy Tech? They are great, but our offering is more responsive and less cost. Maybe we should talk?

His cofounder is the first investor. Not a guy with uber banking contacts, more like a guy who has built and exited other software companies.

Last I heard as of 5 months ago, he hadn't closed a bank yet, but he has closed a handful of smaller medical companies. Two banks were "in talks".

But like anything... He is solving a problem banks have, he is making them aware, and letting them know he can solve it.

Stop overcomplicating business bro. You absolutely can bootstrap your way to an MVP, find an investor, and try to cold call old school industries like Banking and Healthcare.

The only thing I am aware of that they are doing that you left out is participating in trade shows, as presenters and/or speakers. But if you stopped saying "I can't possibly do it" and started asking "How could I possibly do it?" I am sure you would've gotten to the trade show/educational seminar/public speaker type angle.

Get this... They love Linkedin! Yeah, you're right, this type of startup is far out of your league.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Some great points @BizyDad .

The only thing I am aware of that they are doing that you left out is participating in trade shows, as presenters and/or speakers. But if you stopped saying "I can't possibly do it" and started asking "How could I possibly do it?" I am sure you would've gotten to the trade show/educational seminar/public speaker type angle.

Funnily enough, public speaking is one of my strengths. I’ve recently started investing in media appearances as well, I’ve got 2 podcast interviews I was on that came out last week, one with Brent Weaver (you may have heard of him, quite well known in the digital agency space) and the other with out very own @Saad Khan (whom I’ve already asked to start a thread about it here LOL!)

But like anything... He is solving a problem banks have, he is making them aware, and letting them know he can solve it.

Stop overcomplicating business bro

I love how you make the “solve problems” bit sound so easy… I wouldn’t be so worried about selling the banks, as I am about solving a problem for them. I’d have no idea where to start.

This goes back to the point I was making to Rich — it takes a certain level of expertise to solve a high level problem which can only be gained by time spent in or around that industry. In software in this case. Or banking.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Would you reply if you were a coach interested to impact more people who posted actively on Instagram and were obsessed about "making a difference" in people's lives, as most coaches are, or at minimum claim to be?

No, I wouldn't.

I get a dozen of these weekly. In fact, it looks like you use the same boiler-plate approach they use.

They all read EXACTLY the same, so you failed to differentiate yourself (in my eyes) and instead, demonstrated you are just one among thousands using the same playbook.

Delete.

That said, if this works on people, more power to you.

I hate superhero movies as I feel they cater to mindless morons.

And yet, millions pay millions to see them. One person's experience (and opinion [mine]) does not represent the whole.

 

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[Benny.Liquid]

I really love this ideology. Been backed up by a lot of salespeople I've been talking to and was something that I didn't realize I had been telling a friend for years. You should just do things for the sake of doing them. The key takeaway in my version with my friend is that you are applying yourself to something and adding something to the world. The value is what is important not the reward.

When I set out to write my sci-fi books, it started as a campaign setting that I called Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit (Nothing Comes From Nothing). In which the story was pre-structured, and if a player did nothing in the world, then they would arrive at a conclusion that yielded nothing. However, players who made actions in the world, positive or negative, would yield a different conclusion. One that was conclusive to their choices through their time playing the game. After a serious amount of worldbuilding I scrap the game idea, and structure plots around the original ideas of the game.

 

[oneac]

Too many folks just ASK...

• How do I find a client?
• How do I find a mentor?
• How do I find a business idea?

Or they want to give, but ASK how...

• Can I help you?
• What can I help you with?
• Do you need help with XYZ?

Don't ask, give.

Don't even ask what you can give, or ask for permission to give.

People are busy. Don't make them think. Make it easy for them to say yes.



What if you sent someone this:

Hi <person you want to build a relationship with>,

I loved your LinkedIn post last week about <subject>.

I turned it into a carousel which is attached.

Here's the slides:
<show the slides so they don't have to open the doc to see them>.

I can make any changes you'd like, and if you want to upload it to LinkedIn then you can find simple instructions below.

Hope that helps!

<yourname>

Doc:
<doc attached>

How to upload to LinkedIn:
<simple step-by-step instructions>


You're not asking if they can help you, if they need help, or what they need help with.

You're not asking for permission to turn their LinkedIn post into a carousel.

What outcome do you think you'll get if you sent this with NO EXPECTATION of getting anything in return?

Do you think they'll respond even though you didn't ask them to?

Do you think you're more likely to get into a short (or long) conversation with them compared to all the other ASKS in their inbox?


What's your takeaway? What will you do different going foward?

Can you think of other simple GIVES that don't need permission?


Here's a wee story of me not asking for permission:

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/xYEEhRyF1qA?si=rgdk88WpPNqbHxzq

powerful mindset to be in not just as an entrepreneur but as a person as well

 

[Andy Black]

Let's break down a cold email pitch I got this morning.

This one is better than most that I get, as it's from a legitimate agency that is not just starting out. But it's still awful.

View attachment 52102

What would "giving" be in this context?

Maybe in this case it would be a 1-3 solid and specific pitch ideas "for free". Here's what this would do:

1. Show me your PR ability. Can you understand my brand, and how it fits into the zeitgeist, and can you come up with a couple of quick creative and original pitches with a unique angle and great hook? (probably not... because your subject line was "question Sarah"... no reporter is going to respond to lame bullshit like that...) And if the sample pitches are exceptional... I could go and flesh them out myself, and go pitch them myself (but I'm busy and no expert on PR), but more than likely I might say "that sounds great, let's try it".


Square 1 though is having a truly exceptional product or service. If you can't deliver at the highest level... well the best pitch in the world isn't going to get you any business.

"Show me your PR ability."

"Show me your ability."

"Show me you're a problem solver."

"Show me you're someone I'd like to talk to."

"Show me you're someone I'd like to do business with."


It doesn't have to be in email or private message. It can be done in public too.

That's the beauty of public platforms like forums, Facebook groups, LinkedIn, etc. You can reply and show any of the above.


Consider your experience in this forum.

Who would you love to talk to? Why is that?

Who would you tag if someone was struggling with something? Why is that?

Who would you refer to your friend? Why is that?

Who do you follow? Why is that?

 

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[Andy Black]

I think the looms suck because I’m in “busy inbox mode” and I can’t skim them in 3 seconds. Too much of a commitment to make me watch something. (Same reason I don’t like using looms for internal SOPs… not skimmable).

Same.

I've a client who loves sending little voicemail rather than little written messages. I can't skim them, and I can't remember all the points in them. It means I don't open his voicemails as soon as I would skim a written message.

It's easier for him to send voicemails, and they can work wonders when updating clients. But there's a time and a place. And context matters.

I don't do internal Loom videos for my developer to show what needs done with a landing page. I create a bullet point list with images of each thing that I'd like changed and a note saying what I'd like it changed from and to.

If it was 5 points in a minute video then I'd have to watch the damn thing again myself to check everything had been done.

Asking someone to watch a video is typically an ASK. Especially if it's in their inbox.

Like always, context matters.

I've started numerous little newsletters and the first thing I do when someone signs up is send a short personalised video from my phone.

"Hi Bob!

Thanks for signing up to my new XYZ newsletter.

I'd love to send info that helps you.

Can you let me know what you'd like to hear from me.

Oh, and I'm super curious how you found out about the newsletter.

Have a great weekend!"

 

[Black_Dragon43]

I like this. It's natural and how I chat with folks.

Personally, I'd be more interested in building a relationship and seeing where it goes than pitching something.

Maybe the webinar isn't the best win-win for them? Maybe some small thing could work better as a test to see if you're both a good fit? Maybe you can give them some tip or asset they can send to their list that makes them look good and brings them revenue (as per my opening post)?

Maybe, but I find that structure yields better returns on my time. No structure = lesser return on time.

So while it may be possible to find a better win-win, is it worth the effort? That’s the question I always ask myself. It’s always possible to do things better, but is it worth it? You can’t do everything better, you have to prioritize.

So structure enables me to go on autopilot and do things without thinking. Which means they get done easily and fast. Without structure I have to think about it, which is hard, consumes more time, and often the result isn’t better.

 

[Andy Black]

Maybe, but I find that structure yields better returns on my time. No structure = lesser return on time.

So while it may be possible to find a better win-win, is it worth the effort? That’s the question I always ask myself. It’s always possible to do things better, but is it worth it? You can’t do everything better, you have to prioritize.

So structure enables me to go on autopilot and do things without thinking. Which means they get done easily and fast. Without structure I have to think about it, which is hard, consumes more time, and often the result isn’t better.

It depends who you're dealing with I suppose. If someone introduced you to Richard Branson or Grant Cardone you'd probably not go on autopilot. You'd probably get a better return on your time to spend a lot more time and attention on those opportunities.

If you're messaging thousands of solo beauticians then you'd need more structure.

Again, context matters.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

It depends who you're dealing with I suppose. If someone introduced you to Richard Branson or Grant Cardone you'd probably not go on autopilot. You'd probably get a better return on your time to spend a lot more time and attention on those opportunities.

If you're messaging thousands of solo beauticians then you'd need more structure.

You’re bringing up a great point, thank you @Andy Black ! As you say, it does depend on the context… if someone did introduce me to Richard Branson as let’s say a financial advisor who could help him solve some very specific issues, yes, I’d probably not go on autopilot or go in with a very specific structure at all. Although even there, I’d have some sort of structure — build some rapport with him, ask him about things he likes bla bla, and then transition into the issues I could help him with.

If someone introduced me to Richard Branson as someone who could invest in my startup, and basically gave me an opportunity to pitch him, I would probably go in with a very specific structure to make sure he gets what I’m working on fast, without wasting his time.

The issue with lack of structure in this latter case is that there’s a high likelihood that you’ll screw it up without it. With a structure, maybe you won’t do amazing, but you’re almost 100% sure that you’ll have a decent performance.

I guess structure removes variance — you won’t perform piss poorly, but you won’t perform the best way possible either. Most of the time, I find that useful.

 

[EthanH]

Too many folks just ASK...

• How do I find a client?
• How do I find a mentor?
• How do I find a business idea?

Or they want to give, but ASK how...

• Can I help you?
• What can I help you with?
• Do you need help with XYZ?

Don't ask, give.

Don't even ask what you can give, or ask for permission to give.

People are busy. Don't make them think. Make it easy for them to say yes.



What if you sent someone this:

Hi <person you want to build a relationship with>,

I loved your LinkedIn post last week about <subject>.

I turned it into a carousel which is attached.

Here's the slides:
<show the slides so they don't have to open the doc to see them>.

I can make any changes you'd like, and if you want to upload it to LinkedIn then you can find simple instructions below.

Hope that helps!

<yourname>

Doc:
<doc attached>

How to upload to LinkedIn:
<simple step-by-step instructions>


You're not asking if they can help you, if they need help, or what they need help with.

You're not asking for permission to turn their LinkedIn post into a carousel.

What outcome do you think you'll get if you sent this with NO EXPECTATION of getting anything in return?

Do you think they'll respond even though you didn't ask them to?

Do you think you're more likely to get into a short (or long) conversation with them compared to all the other ASKS in their inbox?


What's your takeaway? What will you do different going foward?

Can you think of other simple GIVES that don't need permission?


Here's a wee story of me not asking for permission:

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/xYEEhRyF1qA?si=rgdk88WpPNqbHxzq

Completely agree Andy! The most successful marketing strategy I've ever implemented was getting out into my local community and cleaning filthy road signs for free. No need to ask for permission, I just shared the results with the local community groups and I found that the more that I gave, the more I received back in terms of support and work for my business. So often in business, companies will just ask ask ask for work and customers, instead of giving first. Can't recommend trying something like this out enough.

 

[EthanH]

There's a guy in here who cleans road signs and posts to social media. I can't remember his username or the thread.

That'd be me

 

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[EthanH]

but andy dont you think people might just ignore it and think woah we are getting our glasses cleaned for free why care? @Subsonic

I'm the guy Andy was talking about. My version of this was by cleaning road signs and sharing the results in community groups. I'm sure that many people don't care but the thing is, many people do. People see that I'm providing value first and not asking for anything in return. If you give enough, people will start wanting to help you in return. And so what if nothing comes from it. You'll have provided value to the community and helped someone out regardless.

 

[Andy Black]

See how few people watched (or at least commented on) the video in the opening post?

It's understandable. People on a forum are in reading mode. Getting people who are in reading mode to watch a video is often an ASK.

Not always though.

Context matters.