Are IQ (Smarts) and Success Correlated?

[heavy_industry]

About MJ's "lies to yourself list" all of them are correct, except the IQ one.

Not all smart people are rich, but all self-made rich people are definitely smart.

IQ is strongly correlated to success, and it's one of the most consistent findings in statistical psychology.

However in today's world, where you have an abundance of technology, infrastructure, and free access to unlimited knowledge, you don't have to be a genius to become a millionaire. Anyone of average intelligence and decent work ethic can reach this milestone.

If you have high IQ, it means that your car has a powerful engine.
You can take that car and win the race, or you can use it to wrap the nearest tree and die.

So the power of the engine matters, but how you drive it will determine the outcome of your life.
Wisdom beats the hell out of intelligence.

 

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[Antifragile]

The correlation between net worth and IQ is a real thing.

To have high net worth:
1. Be born rich
2. Marry rich
3. Make your own

The last one is where you are linking IQ to net worth. I'll only comment on that.

I don't know much about IQ tests and don't know if it's ever possible to truly grasp a person's intelligence with any kind of precision. Maybe one day with the AI tools...

The fastest way from zero to wealth is business ownership. Being stupid means you won't succeed. Being a genius may mean you'll think through too many "why it doesn't work" and still fail.

My business is real estate development. Unlike tech companies, we cannot jump to a MVP and launch. That would be like jumping from airplane with an MVP parachute! I cannot build a high-rise building, ask buyers to try it, demolish and then try again based on their user experience and comments.

What worked best for our business?

Tinkering during the planning stage. Most people are horrible at getting their business right the first time. But most people are great at tweaking inputs to get the right result. You don't need to have a super high IQ to do that. I have no idea what my IQ is, nor do I give a shit. I'd rather spend the time tinkering with my ideas for the next real estate project. Visit competition, ask more questions, talk to the community, politicians, construction crews, local stores or just be there, walk the streets and get a feel for it. I can then play with my "lego blocks" to see how a vision can become a reality.

Again, no need for any super high IQ, just willingness to tinker until you get the right result.

If I can do it with real estate... and most people here are internet business focused (technology), you can and must iterate cheaply until you get your desired result. What does your IQ have to do with it? Well, someone with a better brain may tinker faster and get there faster, but its not a guarantee.

For anyone capable of reading MJ books, then joining and posting here... you've got it. Your IQ is not slowing you down (no way!), but your method, your process may. Focus on that. Ignore the rest.

All the best.

 

[Fox]

All the A1 students I know from university have NOT done well.

I see the same thing in them all - they must have the identify of “winning” right from the start, so they can’t try anything new where they might fail.

One guy was amazing on any test, like a walking dictionary. He could tell you all the different historical periods and could go into detail with all kinds of advanced theories and concepts.

But he couldn’t make it work with any real opportunity he got - couldn’t mentally hack not being #1 in a new environment. The second he started failing, he would check out instead of accepting the suck.

To me if you are self-made wealthy you are intelligent. Maybe you don’t use fancy words, or maybe you can’t pass some general knowledge quiz. But you are smart.

You have succeeded where 99% fail and you have the right combination of work ethic, drive, focus, and stickability.

Of course there are other forms of intelligence too. But it’s hard to say that someone who learned to become financially successful isn’t smart when 99% of “smart” people are two paychecks away from being broke.

I’d rather be the simple dude with some money in the bank than some intellectual type who relies on daddy government or their credit card to get by.

 

[Kak]

IQ is strongly correlated to success, and it's one of the most consistent findings in statistical psychology.

However in today's world, where you have an abundance of technology, infrastructure, and free access to unlimited knowledge, you don't have to be a genius to become a millionaire. Anyone of average intelligence and decent work ethic can reach this milestone.

If you have high IQ, it means that your car has a powerful engine.
You can take that car and win the race, or you can use it to wrap the nearest tree and die.

So the power of the engine matters, but how you drive it will determine the outcome of your life.
Wisdom beats the hell out of intelligence.

I disagree.

To take the car analogy, IQ is the steering wheel taking you on the right road. Your strength and "hustle" is the engine.

Smart people take the shortest road because they can. Dumb people (on the long road) can reach the same destination by compensating with effort, but it's highly unlikely.

You also need IQ to beat up your competitors. You have no chance faced with someone smarter than you are.

Too many people will go take an IQ test and then use the results to assign themselves a lot in life. Some will get an average result and use that as an excuse not to strive for more. “I’m doing better than average already, I’m ahead of my curve.” Or, on the flip side, “I have a super high genius IQ, I should be doing better.” One mindset produces better results than the other.

Do you guys even know what your IQ is?

I have actually never taken an IQ test. All the abstract patterns are obnoxious. I’m happy with my ability to learn and acquire new knowledge. It’s like opening yourself up for mindset cancer when you’re feeling fine. No thanks.

Of course, foundational intelligence matters, but the vast majority of people don’t even come close to meeting their true potential.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

so youre telling me feathers are just as heavy??? different things have different mass and structure, next youll try and convince me feathers are as hard as diamond??

Social media has destroyed a generation.

What astounds me with young people today is their confidence in their ignorance.

The statement is very simple. A pound of feathers weighs the same as a pound of iron. But people who've had their brains microwaved into mush by social media can no longer look at things simplistically because their brains have already moved onto the next swipe, the next scroll, and the next dopamine push.

 

[Kevin88660]

About MJ's "lies to yourself list" all of them are correct, except the IQ one.

Not all smart people are rich, but all self-made rich people are definitely smart.

The correlation between net worth and IQ is a real thing.

And social-economics inequalities are "IQ" inequalities more than anything else.

It's immensely controversial...but it's true.

IQ matters but most people have not worked hard enough till a stage where IQ difference counts.

 

[Andy Black]

Too many people will go take an IQ test and then use the results to assign themselves a lot in life. Some will get an average result and use that as an excuse not to strive for more. “I’m doing better than average already, I’m ahead of my curve.” Or, on the flip side, “I have a super high genius IQ, I should be doing better.” One mindset produces better results than the other.

Do you guys even know what your IQ is?

I have actually never taken an IQ test. All the abstract patterns are obnoxious. I’m happy with my ability to learn and acquire new knowledge.

Of course, foundational intelligence matters, but the vast majority of people don’t even come close to meeting their true potential.

I don't know my IQ. I've never taken a test. Can I invoice anyone if I take the test?

 

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[Kak]

The confident stupidity displayed here is unlike anything I have ever experienced in my life. This is insufferable.

 

[Johnny boy]

only an idiot would be born in a middle class family instead of to a Russian oligarch or connected to someone in Jeffrey Epstein's closest friend circle, or as the child of the Sultan of Brunei, duh

That's why I kick myself for being a F*cking moron sometimes. My kids will be smarter and be born to the right family though.

 

[heavy_industry]

Summary of this thread:

 

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[Kak]

Does anyone remember that study conducted on “honors students?”

If I recall correctly, they just randomly selected half of a class of kids and told them and their teachers that they were honors. Then they told the other half they were “average.”

The “honors” students gained confidence, the teachers gained confidence in them, and consequently expected better performance out of them.

The performance differences were very large. Mindset and self confidence are a tremendous factor when it comes to intelligence measured in academic performance.

I wonder how many people take an IQ test after filtering themselves and their capability through their own learned helplessness. It really wouldn’t surprise me if an IQ test, to a large extent, just confirms the limitations they already set for themselves.

There’s no question that some people are just smarter and more mentally capable. I just think an IQ test is an imperfect experiment.

 

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[Kak]

 

[James Klymus]

I hate this topic because it just gives people another excuse.

“Well the reason I’m not successful is because I’m not smart enough”

Bull shit. If you’re in a 1st world nation you have it EASY. You can do literally anything you want to. There are people in other countries living on dirt floors with a leaky tin roof that go through garbage to find something to sell. They’re lucky if they make a dollar or 2 a day to feed their FAMILY. A mattress costs them 6 months “salary”

Meanwhile we’re arguing if we need to be “smart” in order to be successful.

These people in shitty situations would laugh at this. You have all the opportunity in the world, and you’re really stopping to wonder if you’re smart enough?

F*ck that, realize you have 1000x the number of opportunities of most of the world, and get back to work.

DON’T let some stupid dorks with charts and graphs try to convince you that you can’t be successful because you’re not high IQ

 

[heavy_industry]

Do you guys even know what your IQ is?

I don't think I want to know the result.

Say you get a bad score.
What are you going to do? Give up on life because "statistics"?

Or you get a good score.
Now what? @Andy Black where do I send that invoice?


There are plenty of geniuses that are homeless drug addicts, and plenty of people of average intelligence that live well above the mediocrity line.

The IQ is the power of the engine. Big engine = car goes faster.

But you have to pick a destination and start F*cking driving.

So focus on the driving, because that's the only thing you can control.


PS: If you have kids, never praise them for being smart. Praise them for their hard work and effort.

 

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[Bekit]

One way you could test this hypothesis is to look at the data on Mensa members and how successful they are.

Is there any correlation between being having an IQ in the top 2% and being successful?

Two percent of the US population is 6 million people. Are the 6 million people with the highest IQ in the US also the people with a disproportionate level of success and wealth?

I have a hunch the answer is no, based on the assumption that if there were a strong correlation, it would be trumpeted from the Mensa website and marketing materials, which it isn't. Plus, I would think this list of "noteworthy Mensans" would be much longer and much more populated with "well-known successful people" if there was any kind of correlation to success.

However, there IS a correlation where the higher your IQ, the more likely you are to have ADHD, stunted social skills, mental health challenges, or one or more other eccentricities. These factors act as headwinds to being successful.

Not saying IQ is useless... I'd rather be smart than dumb... but just saying that I doubt the correlation between IQ and success holds up unless the person also has multiple other factors supporting them (such as absence of childhood trauma, good mental health, good emotional stability, good social skills, good executive function, internal locus of control, good work ethic, etc.).

 

[Antifragile]

i know its hard to acknowlege ill use an example, would you rather hit in the face with a pound of iron or a pound of feathers? feathers of course, because iron is heavier on average

Is your IQ same as your age?

Unreal.

Who’s got the double face palm meme? One just isn’t enough.


Edit: and for anyone advocating dropping out of school… the quoted post above should be proof: don’t. Stay in school kids. You F*cking need it more than I can explain.

 

[Kak]

 

[Johnny boy]

 

[Guest931Xfjyx]

You know what intelligent people don't do?

Argue over intelligence on forums.

 

[xShepherdx]

If you're dumb, hire smart people to compensate.

If you're smart, hire dumb people to get more stuff done.

If you think that a pound of iron weighs more than a pound of feathers, hire someone who knows how to use a scale.

 

[Simon Angel]

Does anyone else read the replies with both pleasure and a slight queasiness? Or it is my heartburn?

Nevertheless, I'm entertained by the numerous plotlines emerging in this thread:

@Antifragile vs @monnffffiiiiiii

@Black_Dragon43 vs @BizyDad

IQ vs The Fastlane Forum

EDIT: And even some tag-team action by @Antifragile and @BizyDad

 

[NeoDialectic]

There seems to be alot of misinformation being peddled about IQ on this thread that I'm surprised hasn't been called out. I've never taken a "real" IQ test, so I don't have any skin in the game to try and pump up IQ's rep. But alot of the claims on here have been wildly ignorant.

1. IQ is NOT trainable. This is commonly misunderstood. Taking a few practice tests can help raise your initial test score as it helps you get into the groove and become familiar with the testing style. You can also learn a few broad tricks (dont spend all your time on one question). Past that, the insane part about IQ is actually how difficult (read: no known way) it is to improve and how rock solid it is throughout someones life... higher educational attainment and endless practice doesn't improve it.

It's actually similar to alot of other genetic performance tests. E.G Your explosive power. Unlike strength..once you get down the basics, every tiny improvement in explosive power is hard fought for.

(This is all in the context of normal cases..... Raising low iq can be a different animal when its stunted by some external factor. For example, providing nourishment to malnourished kids allows them to score higher as they grow up.)

2. IQ vs success isn't exactly the right question to ask. IQ is highly correlated to success at <100. Then the correlation starts to drop off drastically until it fades. Lesson: making money isn't that complicated of a puzzle. A minimum amount helps grease the wheels but endless other factors start to become more important.

Obviously, certain jobs and businesses would require higher levels of intelligence. However, general success does not.

3. IQ is one of the most repeatable and studied phenomenon in psychology. If it turns out IQ is hogwash, then everything else in the field is just astrology. I know the field hasn't exactly made a name for itself in repeatability.... but there are A LOT of studies over a lot of time periods.

EQ, SQ, etc on the other hand is not in the same ballpark. I haven't looked at it in a while but working off memory, EQ and others, when seperate from IQ testing is basically just astrology. Or to be more charitable, its like the personality tests you can take with your friends on FB. You are testing things that CAN be learned and CAN be changed. For example, some people are naturally more persuasive and suave. But you can learn that.

4. Another thing..... there is no "you're just good at taking this type of test if you have a high IQ". IQ is estimating g, which is by definition the overlap of intelligences.

It's obviosly possible to naturally excel in one particular thing. But IQ/g is measuring the common ground.

People with high IQ can generally get very good at almost anything that is dependant on brain performance.

5. As mentioned, I've never taken an actual IQ test. Only the online norway/Denmark mensa tests. From my understanding those are ok for ballpark estimates but not actually serious or reliable. Everything else is even worse. The only "real" IQ test are in-person tests. That would explain some of the posts mentioning "I've taken it many times getting wildly different numbers". Taking the real thing repeatedly will get you different results each time, but they will all cluster around the "right" one. That's my understand of it but maybe @Black_Dragon43 knows more about this.

 

[PureA]

The problem is IQ is that IQ measurement comes from IQ test, which is a performance test.

You can put a fat person on a weighing scale, it will show that he is fat, you cannot measure “genes that cause him to be fat”.

Are there genetic reasons for performance disparity. Sure there are. To what extend are performance disparity caused by genetics? Probably very little.

I grew up on self dev, blank slate, "anyone can do anything if they try hard enough" thinking.

It's a nice belief that probably serves us even if it isn't true (playing victim isn't going to help anyone).

Once you get deeper into the data its astonishing that genetics control everything way more than we'd like to think.

A simple example to illustrate the point...

You take twins and separate them at birth, one goes to a poor family in a rural area, one goes to a rich family in a thriving city.

They get brought up on different foods, different politics, different class of people around them, different belief and life lessons instilled.

They don't know of each other for 35 years... and then they meet.

They are both lawyers, like the same foods, have the same political beliefs, same hobbies.

Crazy. How? Why? Genetics.

That being said, the mistake here is to use this as an excuse and self limit your potential.

You can outwork any deficits. Volume cures all. Action cures all.

Everyone gets dealt a unique hand that is full of pros and cons.

Play yours the best you can, what option do you have?

 

[MitchC]

You just have to be smart enough

Maybe your iq will only allow you a certain level of potential

But I doubt anyone of us have reached that potential

The amount of people I know who are richer than me and also I think dumber than me tells me my iq is not the problem

This meme is also very relevant


Lol I meant to find business ones where the middle guy is overthinking it and the other 2 are just saying provide value or sell things or whatever but I found this one instead

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Does anyone remember that study conducted on “honors students?”

If I recall correctly, they just randomly selected half of a class of kids and told them and their teachers that they were honors. Then they told the other half they were “average.”

The “honors” students gained confidence, the teachers gained confidence in them, and consequently expected better performance out of them.

The performance differences were very large. Mindset and self confidence are a tremendous factor when it comes to intelligence measured in academic performance.

I wonder how many people take an IQ test after filtering themselves and their capability through their own learned helplessness. It really wouldn’t surprise me if an IQ test, to a large extent, just confirms the limitations they already set for themselves.

There’s no question that some people are just smarter and more mentally capable. I just think an IQ test is an imperfect experiment.

The self-fulfilling prophecy thing is huge for one's psychology. It's like the placebo effect. You are right.
Both are true.

 

[Kak]

I understand the correlation, but in entrepreneurship specifically, having enough IQ to be a dynamic leader releases you from the limitation of the IQ. It’s no longer about YOU and YOUR abilities. And when considering scalability, it shouldn’t be. It’s about the abilities of your company.

@monnffffiiiiiii it’s not even close to “the only variable.” That’s nonsense. What about locus of control? I bet that’s an even stronger correlation.

 

[Andy Black]

I'll back street-smart over book-smart.

 

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[Bekit]

However, below average isn’t smart, and I know several examples of people with below average intellect that are what most would consider successful.

I attended a training once where the instructor told the story of how he paid to attend an expensive mastermind. At the in-person event, it was pretty clear that one of the business owners in attendance had a "below average" IQ compared to others.

My instructor was standing around with a few other guys at the mastermind, and some of them were talking down about the low IQ guy, until one of them commented, "Yeah, well [Name-of-low-IQ-dude] has his own airplane. And you don't." And that shut everyone up really quick.

All that to say... there's not always going to be a 1-to-1 correlation between intelligence and success (or the lack thereof).

But if you have the wherewithal to outsmart your competition by playing 3D chess while they're playing 2D checkers, by all means, go for it and leverage that advantage!

 

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[Kak]

I think you are trolling at this point haha

I just realized that we have now both argued over 700+ year unit of measurement with someone who named their account F*cking “droopynips.”

I’m currently trying not to hate myself for taking the bait.

I am going to unignore him just to ignore him again. There is literally nothing anyone on this forum can learn from this guy.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Honestly, it's cooler to be an idiot and still beat all the people with high IQs.

Just like it's cool when all the guys with more talent, more muscle, and better training are beaten in a race, sport, or other competition by someone with no talent who is weaker, slower, and has worse technique.

That being said, don't handicap yourself. Be the best you can be.

 

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