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Andy's Inbound/Sales Braindump

Black_Dragon43

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Results is all what matters. This is my approach and these are the results that we've gotten for other clients.
But results are equally easy to manipulate. Take the example of Facebook Ads. I've hired people for Facebook Ads before. They shared the best results. So what? They failed, terribly. In fact, when I spoke with some of these people I could even see that they have no clue what they're talking about.

Bottom line: results can also be faked. Testimonials can be faked. Even if you do work for a client, and the result is bad, it's possible to convince them to give you a glowing testimonial. I myself have given glowing testimonials for poor developers from India for example because I felt pity for them even though they did a terrible job. They agreed to close the job on my terms, so I left them a glowing testimonial, since I know bad testimonials can cause a lot of harm.

All that means nothing.

Literarily, nowadays, when I hire someone, if they show me results, they're out. I just check for the kind of people they are, if their beliefs match with my own, and that they have a track record in the industry that is visible. For example, jobs completed on a job board, a website with a certain history, direct knowledge when I speak with them, etc.

But I have zero respect for results, and so-called experts who show them and tout them.
 
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maverick

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All your examples in the last paragraph can also be manipulated.

Key quality for successful business owners is the ability to identify and harness talent. If you share your approach, results and spiel but they choose someone else to do the job then fair play to them.
 

Black_Dragon43

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All your examples in the last paragraph can also be manipulated.
Two things:

1. People tend to manipulate the things that other people care most often about, on average. On average, people care about results (DUH!). Hence the attention and focus is on manipulating results. I actually have a guide about hiring freelancers that is selling on some forums (not here), and I go over this. I have hired close to 100 freelancers by now, and spent around $40,000 on them.

As a side note, I could never understand why people are so blinded by results, but most still are.

2. Character, an existing track record, and direct knowledge cannot be manipulated, at least not that easily. I know how to run FB ads. If I hire someone to do it, I know what they need to do. They're not coming in to some dummy business person that doesn't know what he's doing and just wants to see results. No, they come face to face with an expert, probably one who knows more than they do in most cases. So I will ask them technical questions. I will see what strategies they suggest. I will see how they carry themselves. What they put the accent on, and so on. I tend to hire people who are HONEST, even when it doesn't benefit them, who have an existing track record, and who are very knowledgeable. I don't care about results - I know marketing is not an exact science to begin with, and you could be very good at getting results for client A, and terrible in doing so for client B. But knowledge, character, and experience are the three most important factors.
 

maverick

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I'm not disagreeing with the points you're making but they do all boil down to results.

An existing track record = results
You get knowledgeable through trial-and-error and experience = results
When you hire someone (ESPECIALLY on a sales/marketing role AND being an external company), you want them to add more value to the company then what they cost in expenses = results
 
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Black_Dragon43

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I'm not disagreeing with the points you're making but they do all boil down to results.

An existing track record = results
You get knowledgeable through trial-and-error and experience = results
When you hire someone (ESPECIALLY on a sales/marketing role AND being an external company), you want them to add more value to the company then what they cost in expenses = results
I disagree (leaving aside that you're equivocating on the word results).

To give an example. I have hired a copywriter, who actually happens to be a member of this forum (I didn't know it at the time when I hired him. And he didn't know I was a member here either). When I hired him, he had 0 experience from what I could see. No previous clients, no results to show either from what I saw. And he was upfront about it. I liked that.

What he did have however was a portfolio that he created to show his skills. He had 3 sales letters, one for a product of his own that he was creating, and 2 for brands that he liked. He also sent me a list of the material that he studied for his education.

I had a chat with him, and we discussed some of his writings and what he had read.

I hired him on the spot. The moment I saw that, I knew I was dealing with a winner.

He was one of the best out of house copywriters that I ever hired. He only worked with one of our clients, but he did a PHENOMENAL job, on what was a huge project. He wrote sales pages, emails, sales scripts, powerpoint presentations and more. A truly outstanding person.

And I will say this: if the market wasn't so DUMB to care just about results, I would have had to pay a fortune to hire him. It's just the truth.

Results and experience are overrated by inexperienced business owners. And that's a fact, that I know on my own skin, because I've hired a ton of different people, and have seen a ton of different situations.

What should be valued most is knowledge and character. Which even many of the so called experts have very little of unfortunately.

When you hire someone (ESPECIALLY on a sales/marketing role AND being an external company), you want them to add more value to the company then what they cost in expenses = results
I don't look for that. I have no way of knowing if they will add more value to the company than they cost without trying them. Maybe you are a Nostradamus, I certainly am not :happy:. And once again, let's not forget that marketing is not an exact science. You could hire a very capable person and it can fail to work out. There are no guarantees. What I want in my corner is somebody who knows what they're doing, a real world-class expert with strong moral values, who has the knowledge required to make the best of the opportunity in front of him (which does NOT necessarily mean that he will succeed). That expert may never have worked for another client in his life. That doesn't matter.
 
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Andy Black

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Do you think that that's for the best though? This stuff gets me very riled up, because all this "fake" stuff, and lying actually makes the entire marketplace worse for everyone - for clients, and for sellers. Your potential prospects no longer trust you, so you suffer, and your clients struggle to find a reliable supplier because of all the BS out there. In addition, a lot of small business owners make VERY costly mistakes which put them out of business.

You yourself mentioned that when you tried to join a group for Irish business owners, the initial reaction was to label you as a marketer and not to trust you. Why do you think that is? Because these small business owners have seen on their own skin how dangerous the lies and fake information out there associated with marketing is. So we're all hurt by it.

Have you read Cialdini's Influence?

At the end of each chapter, the way to circumvent the method of influence discussed is always to be aware that it is a deception. And that it is carried out with ulterior motives. That things are not what they seem, or what the opposing party is trying to make them look like.

Cialdini goes further, and says that we have a duty to unmask the deceivers, since it is the only way to stop them.

Now, if every time when we encounter deception we turn away and go a different path, are we really helping to build a better marketplace for everyone? Are we really doing the most to help our clients?
It doesn't rile me up. I just shrug and keep doing what I was doing.

I'm aware I could bounce in and drop loads of "helpful tips", and that this will often be viewed as a lead gen tactic. It happened when I joined this forum too. It didn't stop me. I kept going and eventually people figure out you're there to be a part of the community (ha... except for a few in here maybe, but feck 'em. There's an ignore button if they don't like what I write or they don't like me. I know I'm here to help. Their perception doesn't change my reality.)

The owner of that Facebook group of Irish business owners who initially told me she distrusted me because of what I did for a living? She asked me to do a Google Ads workshop for the group and she loved it. She loved it not just for the content, but also because she got to know me and my personality. I'm now a "partner" who will help out members of her group and her business directory. I didn't have a goal to do that. I just wanted to find a group of local business owners who weren't spamming the heck out of each other so I could have another home online.

Here's a recording of that workshop btw:
There's no sales pitch in there, and no call to action at the end either. I bet it brings me referrals though, and I sure hope people share it because I want people to understand what's in it.
 

tonibob

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Results are important, as this is how you get paid. If there is no added value, why would somebody pay you?
Regarding choosing who to work with it is totally different matter, if you choose the person with the greatest results and he has no character, no integrity, no energy, just showing of his results, you have made really bad choice. I believe everybody with a Character who has Integrity, Energy and Honesty can achieve tremendous success, despite the fact he has 0 results. Results are not constant, but Character is!

My two cents on the heated debate :blush: .
 
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Has it ever happened to you on social media to be approached by someone for a "chat", and then it actually turned out that it wasn't a chat at all, but an awkward attempt to sell you to their services, where the purpose was clear almost from the very first question they asked?
Just a side note: someone mention on FLF that he was approached while he was at bookstore in the business section - tldr: stranger came up with a chat and followed with MLM offer iirc. Seems people now use this strategy online.
 

Andy Black

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Yeah, I know, I've seen that. My point though is that the only reason she started by distrusting you is that the marketplace has become filled with snakes. We all (clients and honest service providers) get hurt when deception becomes more and more common, and the trust between service providers and clients gets eroded.


I have asked you this before, and you have told me that you prefer shrugging and doing your thing. But do you reckon that this improves the situation? Do you just not want to deal with it? Do you think it's not worth dealing with? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from on this, since I think that we both agree that deception in the marketplace is a problem for all (honest) participants. My question is really, how should we go about solving this problem, together, as a community? And what should we do as individuals?
My goal is to help my clients get found by consumers looking for them. Me going on a crusade doesn't help my clients. I can't invoice them for going on a crusade either.

I'm not bothered what the marketplace is filled with, or what everyone else is doing. Sure, I keep an eye on it to make sure I don't have their signature but I'll run my own race. In fact, I think all the BS is making it easier to stand out and get clients.
 

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The TL;DR about positioning yourself

Want to get known as "The XYZ Guy"?

1) Talk about XYZ.

2) Help people with XYZ.

3) Be seen to help people with XYZ.
So simple! Trouble with me I have a few different things that I like to do!
 
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Andy Black

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So simple! Trouble with me I have a few different things that I like to do!
So do I!

Even better than being known as a technical specialist in XYZ is being known as someone who gets stuff done, or who knows people, or who’s a good sounding board, or who’s trustworthy. The best bit is we can be all of the above.
 

Big Spender

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So do I!

Even better than being known as a technical specialist in XYZ is being known as someone who gets stuff done, or who knows people, or who’s a good sounding board, or who’s trustworthy. The best bit is we can be all of the above.
Indeed, they are fine qualities to have.
BTW how is you £15 per month Google ads bootcmp going?
 

Andy Black

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BTW how is you £15 per month Google ads bootcmp going?
Good, thanks for asking. People are feeding back that they love the lessons. There’s nice engagement in the Facebook group, and I’m slowly figuring out a system and weekly process to get and answer questions. I can see how it can scale.
 
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Good, thanks for asking. People are feeding back that they love the lessons. There’s nice engagement in the Facebook group, and I’m slowly figuring out a system and weekly process to get and answer questions. I can see how it can scale.
No responses yet to my offer but I will try the personal approach you suggested with email next week and see what happens.
Do you have any tips for musicians in general? I do a youtube channel called Prosperous Musician and it would be good to talk to you on it if you were interested?
Thanks
Spence
 

Andy Black

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No responses yet to my offer but I will try the personal approach you suggested with email next week and see what happens.
Do you have any tips for musicians in general? I do a youtube channel called Prosperous Musician and it would be good to talk to you on it if you were interested?
Thanks
Spence
I’m not a musician and have never worked with a musician client. Have you looked at Graham Cochran’s “The Recording Revolution” on YouTube? He’s got a lot of subscribers and built a good business there. He also has a separate brand under his name showing how people can build their own online business. I mention him because he’s walked the walk first.
 

Big Spender

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I’m not a musician and have never worked with a musician client. Have you looked at Graham Cochran’s “The Recording Revolution” on YouTube? He’s got a lot of subscribers and built a good business there. He also has a separate brand under his name showing how people can build their own online business. I mention him because he’s walked the walk first.
Thanks. I'll check him out!
 
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Andy Black

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Itizn

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Even better than being known as a technical specialist in XYZ is being known as someone who gets stuff done, or who knows people, or who’s a good sounding board, or who’s trustworthy. The best bit is we can be all of the above.
Really like this p.o.v.
 
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How I sometimes sell after someone has agreed to speak/meet me

Here's a 3 min video.
View: https://youtu.be/TPX85thTqvA


It's very compelling for a business to "see" the search volumes (from the Google Keyword Planner screenshot), and then "see" the search results page with their competitors listed, but not themselves.

"Show people their bleeding neck." (Perry Marshall)


I'm also demonstrating my expertise/knowledge/authority.
  • Again, I don't say "I know my stuff. I've worked for XYZ."
  • That would be a "Tell".
  • Instead I "Show", with the report that's about *them*, instead of waffling about *me*.
  • "Show, don't tell."

In my rush to get out of the door I forgot to email the report to the guy too. With an email, he can then find it years later if needs be, and he can forward it to friends if he thinks they'll learn from it too.


I did another vlog after where I explained that I'm NOT going to follow up.
  • I'm only interested in dealing with people who raise their hand.
  • If he wants to engage and take it further, he has to make the next move.
  • IMO, to follow up is wasting my time when there are so many other businesses out there that would bite my hand off.
  • It's an abundance mindset for one thing.
  • It's also a series of tests.
  • They might be looking/testing to find a marketing/AdWords consultant, but I'm also looking/testing for clients who "get" it, and will grow into a regular income stream, and/or partner.


"The first purchase is a test."
  • Every interaction, or lack of, is a test.
  • It's not about passing or failing these tests, it's just about finding out whether both sides are a good fit.
  • BOTH ways.

The chances are he'll not become a client, but I've learned another vertical, and there's one more person who knows what I do, and knows I know my stuff.


Oh, and in case you're wondering why I'd be after a little Kick-Boxing business as a client...
  • Maybe he's a good operator and wants to build a franchise throughout the country.
  • Maybe he knows loads of other business people.
  • Maybe I enjoy doing the research anyway.
  • Maybe I like to help open people's eyes, and giving them a better chance of putting food on the table is reward in itself for me.

The beauty of running your own business is that you can fire clients, not take on clients, and not "always be closing" if that's not how you choose to run your own business.

Just my 2c. Hope it helps.
Thanks for this information it is very helpful and a reminder to me of how I used to deal with "sales" - time to head back to the original approach and mentality for me.
Cheers for the reminder!
 

David Fitz

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This thread is gold.
 

Andy Black

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When your back's against the wall...

Someone gave me this advice a few years ago and it's got me out of a bind quite a few times since. On one occasion I was 2 days away from our mortgage payment while staring at an empty warchest. This advice paid my mortgage that month.

The advice?

Start sending hand crafted emails to all the people you've ever done work with. Make it short, friendly, and non-needy.

Example:

Hi Bob,

Hope you and your family are well.

Just thought I'd let you know some space has cleared in my calendar. If you need any help with AdWords or know anyone who does then just reach out.

We must catch up soon. It's long overdue!

Speak soon,
Andy


...

The important part is saying some space has cleared in your calendar. This isn't needy, but has them thinking how they can help you fill it.
I like the phrase, "some space has cleared in my calendar". I was looking for how to say I am more available but not free.
 

Andy Black

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I like the phrase, "some space has cleared in my calendar". I was looking for how to say I am more available but not free.
Ha. I never thought of how saying you’re free can be taken up the wrong way!
 
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BizyDad

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A SALES TIP FOR TECHIES

I’ve been meaning to write about this for years and it recently came to a head when someone asked me to review some cold emails they were sending out. It’s a bit long and rambling but I hope it helps.

Anyway, here goes...



A friend was made redundant after three decades as a pharmaceutical sales rep. It hit him hard, and left him with no desire to work for another company.

I suggested he work with me for three months and see if he could bring me clients. We spent hours going over stories how I’ve helped businesses and how I’ve signed them up.

He arranged a meeting for me with a prospect and listened while I chatted to her for an hour.

After that meeting my friend told me “You’re not a salesman Andy.” He explained how much more there was to learn about sales, and how big his library of sales books was. I smiled and nodded.

To help sign up a local car dealership, my friend went round with his laptop so I could have a Skype call with them.

I spotted instantly the business owners were a couple of regular guys hustling hard to build their business, and that they’d appreciate straight talking.

I did my thing on the call, the client signed up, and we’re into our third month helping them.

Last week my salesman friend told me he wanted to get me on calls with prospects more often, explaining that I bring a lot of value to those calls.

So why did he say that after he initially proclaimed that I’m not a salesman, and how can it help you?

What my friend didn’t realise back then is that I try damn hard to NOT be a salesman.

I’ve since explained to him that when I pop into my local garage with a weird rattle in my engine then I prefer talking to the guys in the oily overalls to the guys in the suits.

That when I ring up Google with a problem then I’d much rather speak to a technical specialist who can tell me exactly what’s up with my account, even if they’re not as smooth on the phone as an “account strategist”.

And that I know I’m a techie, a regular guy, and that I play to that deliberately.

On sales calls I talk too much. I get way too excited. I often speak first to fill in the awkward silence (a big no-no to the sales folks amongst us). I wave my hands in the air, interrupt myself, and go off at tangents. I propose solutions there and then, get carried away, and give away too much.

In short, I act like a techie who loves what he does rather than a salesman trying to close a sale. I do all the things a salesman accompanying me would want me to stop doing.

Except I know this works. I’ve been doing it for years.

I’ve had big agencies in Dublin wheel me into meetings to answer questions from the marketing team in a big corporate they’re pitching to. Apparently one marketing director was sold the moment I bounced over to the flip chart and started doodling to answer his questions.

I “allow” myself to get super passionate and excited about what I do. I don’t try and put a lid on it, or act how I may think a good salesman or good businessman would. If anything I ham it up!

I try to be that guy with oily overalls that loves cars and wants to chat about them all day long.

If you’re a techie then consider playing to it, rather than trying to dampen it down and become more of what you think a professional salesman or businessman would be.

Learn about sales by all means, but just consider acting more how a techie would than how you believe a professional salesman or businessman would.

Chances are you’ll do better at sales by not trying to make sales.
So. Good. Just brilliant.
This thread is gold.
I second this. This has to be one of the most underappreciated threads in the forum. Can someone mark it gold so other's will be drawn to read it? At least notable?
 

Andy Black

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So. Good. Just brilliant.

I second this. This has to be one of the most underappreciated threads in the forum. Can someone mark it gold so other's will be drawn to read it? At least notable?
It feels odd marking one of my own threads Gold, but if it helps more people then I’ll get over myself.

Thanks for reading and the feedback @BizyDad and @David Fitz.
 

Andy Black

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Just sent to my newsletter:

Tips sending emails to people you've already chatted with

Someone asked how to send an email to someone they've already chatted with.

My personal preference is to write so people can scan/skim instead of having to read.

I generally use a 3 paragraph style with my emails:
  1. Why I'm writing (1 short sentence).
  2. The meat (1-2 short sentences).
  3. What they can do if interested (1 short sentence).
If I'm trying to resurrect a conversation I've had previously then my goal would just be to start a conversation. If they're interested they'll reply. If not I'm happy to move on.

Note how I don't ask them outright if they need help. I ask if they know someone who needs help. If they need help then they can raise their hand, but I'm not putting pressure on them.

Also note how I mention Google Ads twice. I want them to think of me whenever Google Ads comes up.

Here's an example of what I might send:



Hi Bob

We spoke last year about Google Ads and getting more visitors to your website.

Some space has cleared up in our calendar and I'm wondering if you know anyone who's looking for help with their Google Ads?

Hope you're well.

Andy
 
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Thread little old , but how do you price your services , and have you had clients who go directly and use Google AdWord ?
Loads of clients end up running the campaigns themselves. It’s just the nature of it I guess.

I personally like to charge a flat monthly fee, in advance and automated.

Others charge a % of spend, revenue, or profit, or charge per lead or sale. I prefer simple and to have smaller clients (for the moment anyway).

My fees are very very low. I’m more interested in creating a productised service, SaaS, and/or courses.
 

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