GO TO COLLEGE... A little Rant.

[mayana]

Forming a habit can be a dangerous one, especially when it's "I am going to quit because I am not happy right now".

While you definitely have a great point, isn't life too short to be completely miserable? If someone finds college a terrible experience, I don't see anything wrong with quitting. Same goes for a job, relationship, etc...

So, how is having to work 40 hours+ at a bullshit job to 'stay afloat' not wasting your time?

I'd assume that the "b.s." jobs that people might be referring to are probably retail, restaurant, hospitality, etc, jobs that have non-traditional schedules. For example, I'd rather work at a restaurant at night if I need to instead of committing to a 40+ hour job (and add in 10 hours for the commute, for example), even if I'd make more money. If you work all day, starting your day at 6:30 and don't get home until 7:00 at night, it's tough to spend any time on a business. Especially if you have additional responsibilities (i.e. spouse, children).

This is just how I see it, someone else may have something to add about this.

 

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[octoberskyy]

While you definitely have a great point, isn't life too short to be completely miserable? If someone finds college a terrible experience, I don't see anything wrong with quitting. Same goes for a job, relationship, etc...



I'd assume that the "b.s." jobs that people might be referring to are probably retail, restaurant, hospitality, etc, jobs that have non-traditional schedules. For example, I'd rather work at a restaurant at night if I need to instead of committing to a 40+ hour job (and add in 10 hours for the commute, for example), even if I'd make more money. If you work all day, starting your day at 6:30 and don't get home until 7:00 at night, it's tough to spend any time on a business. Especially if you have additional responsibilities (i.e. spouse, children).

This is just how I see it, someone else may have something to add about this.

I've worked several BS jobs -- waitressing at several different restaurant chains, dry cleaners, karaoke bar, abercrombie & fitch retail, etc, etc from 15-22. I've held a white collar job for 5 years now.

I have way more energy after finishing a shift from a white collar job vs. finishing a shift at a BS job. BS jobs are exhausing -- you are on your feet all day, carrying things, moving around all day, dealing with customer complaints, etc, etc.. and by the time i finished work i had no energy or motivation to do anything else besides rest at home for the remainder of the day.

of course everyone is different, but for me, even part time BS jobs were really tiring (physically & emotionally). with the job I have now, I think i work about 5 hours "real work" a day and spend the other 3 surfing the web, reading internet articles/forums, etc. Unlimited paid vacation is a nice perk also.. of course every white collar job is different, but if you talk to people there are definetly jobs you can find that are easier & require less effort than others.

 

[cilaes]

I wasn't sure if you were in the United States or not... but since you are... THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE to this great country. :thankyousign:

Thanks for your appreciation. That's the real driving force behind our military, I promise. And I'm sure there are other veterans around that can attest to this.

I second that. atriot:

Speaking of service. You can join the Air Force right out of high school for four years and go to a state university full time. You get FREE housing and FREE 4 meals a day at a U.S. air base!! PLUS I think they will pay half of your tuition. So lets say its 3.5k/year times 4 years thats 14k for bachelors degree!!!!

Military marketing at its best. You can join as an officer and go to an academy such as West Point (Army), Annapolis (Navy & Marines), or Airforce and be a complete military student geared towards a degree for the military, get a bachelors degree and join as an officer, or you can join enlisted and go to school while you're in completely paid for through tuition assistance (TA) and when you get out use your GI Bill to go to school or give it to your dependant (with a lot of restrictions behind that)... Or you can go through an ROTC program and go to a public school and have your school paid for as long as you obligate a certain amount of years to the military. Of course there is extra curricular things going on with either avenue.

Fact is, you pay for college. Whether it be monetarily, or through personal sacrifice.

It should be everyone's personal, ethical, financial, and situational decision on whether or not college or entrepreneurship is right or wrong. One thing you're never guaranteed is success, either way. If you think you may need to fall back on a job in the future, check out the job market. Very rarely will "Bachelors degree in _________" not be under the requirements. I know this from experience. I have a design portfolio with 15+ fortune 500 companies under my belt utilizing other avenues such as development, etc. and I still couldn't get a call back for a job when I got out. So, I took off myself. There are still days when I wake up and just wish I had my milestones of the day layed out for me with a guaranteed [mediocre] paycheck waiting on me. A lot of them.

 

[Rickson9]

I took 6 years to finish my degree.

 

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[julien515]

I'm in college now and let me tell you it SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Luckly my parents are paying for 75% of it so ill only be 7-8K in debt, i have a family member and a close family friend who own businesses in the IT field and they can guarantee me a job once I graduate with a computer science degree. But seriously it's a living hell!I always hated school and 90% of the stuff they teach about programming I already know or could learn it for 1/10th of the price.

However it is true that it is bloody hard to start a business with next to $0 capital and zero business experience, I spend most of my free time trying to develop a business and hope to have a successful one by the time I graduate.

 

[JaySoriano]

Yes the experience is cool, but for someone who DID graduate from college.. it certainly isn't worth $25,000.

 

[Pete799p]

Let me tell you something. For all your wanting to be great, for all your needing to be great, for all the lies you tell yourself about how great you are.

You are probably not and odds are you are going to fail. Sorry but it is true. Business is tough, if you think School is hard, wait tell you open a business.

It is true that almost everybody is going to fail on their first go and most people are not really that great. My argument would be that your first business no matter how dismal it is could be a great learning experience. I know I learned more about business by starting one in college then I ever did in school and I learned even more when it eventually failed. There is no doubt that there are some truly gifted entrepreneurs such as yourself that can just make it happen but it seems that everybody I know that has built successful businesses have all had to face failure at least once. I would say that you would be better off learning how to make a living and building a business then going to college. Me personally I would have rather gone to college now that I am a little bit older and could have truly taken advantage of the opportunities available. Not to mention I have a much clearer picture of what I would have gone to school for. I got a degree in Finance because I didnt know what else to do and I always liked money, math, and business.

 

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[dknise]

So glad to see all the people here disagreeing! I'll tell you why...

Yikes! Just posted and didn't realized I wrote a book. If you TLDR, I'll understand. Warning, true rant follows haha!

I've always been a smart kid. I graduated high school with all my "college" credit math classes and a good GPA, but for what? To get into a good college. I attended Washington State University for one year... well going to WSU was probably my FIRST problem, but it wasn't my only. There's a section of MJ's book that I literally was like screw this guy, he stole the words right out of my mouth for the book I would have written in twenty years. I still remember my first day of ECON101. Walk into class, sit down with 400 other students, and find out my teacher is a 23 year old guy who double majored in business management and finance. His exact words were "I'm going to teach you how to make a million dollars." The only problem was, for me... that I saw the hypocrisy in the fact that a 23 year old guy that had never left the WSU campus or owned a business, was going to teach me about making a multi million dollar business. 400 of us paying $35 per class to a guy who had ZERO experience. There is something SERIOUSLY wrong with that.

My second wake up call was going to ME110 for mechanical engineering. My teacher was a graduate of WSU in my degree of interest! After two years in the field, he couldn't keep a job because he was just too underqualified and couldn't do what was demanded of him. His fond memories of drinking and romping with beer-chubs, loosely moralled girls from his days at the fine WSU campus called out to him. After two more years of school, he was back at WSU teaching my class, for the first time.

For the record, MJ's example in the book is going to a "health" cooking class being taught by a fat guy, hahaha.

Wake up call #3 happened in my second calculus class. My first teacher didn't speak English. He actually taught our class of 400 in which 30 attended in Italian. True story. My second class was taught by a scruffy old guy with his shirt un-buttoned who sipped Jack Daniels during class and would randomly go on rants about his recent divorce. This reinforced wake up calls #1 and #2, but then there was my Calc TA, teachers assistant. Twice a week we would meet with this guy in a classroom with 30 other students from the 400. Only 4 or 5 of us ever showed up. It just so happens... this guy was a former mathematician at NASA, who was going around to PAC10 schools teaching Calculus for free to students. His pay came in the emotional reward of passing on his knowledge to younger people, and I will never, ever forget him. Time and time again, he could explain the most complicated problems methodically, and above the level required for the class. If class was only 45 minutes, there wasn't a problem if we stayed for an hour and a half, his time wasn't bound to his wealth equation. He was the best teacher I've ever had.

Back in my 6 x 8 frat room shared with another guy, I started to think "does anyone feel like this is a complete joke besides me? Am I completely alone? Does no one realize we are paying the wrong people to teach us!?" And that's when I found Steve Jobs 2005 commencement speech at Stanford. Validation. I recently got another dose of validation after reading MJ's book.

It's been 3 years, and I've done everything under the sun since then. Been burned, seen great success, partied harder than the college kids, and am not in debt 60k, but have 60k in the bank. I just quit a job a software engineering job at Microsoft after learning programming from books authored by THE sources on the topics. While there, I got to see countless Computer Science majors a year older than I fail and be fired, while I continually got given more responsibilities. Now I'm 22, quitting the corporate rat race that all the in debt college grads are so eager to get into for the next 30 years. Pro experience under my belt, fat paychecks saved up to finance my living expenses during startup, and nothing but freedom and love of what I do ahead.

#endrant

True knowledge and true wealth is more important than a "real education."

 

[theag]

So glad to see all the people here disagreeing! I'll tell you why...

Yikes! Just posted and didn't realized I wrote a book. If you TLDR, I'll understand. Warning, true rant follows haha!

I've always been a smart kid. I graduated high school with all my "college" credit math classes and a good GPA, but for what? To get into a good college. I attended Washington State University for one year... well going to WSU was probably my FIRST problem, but it wasn't my only. There's a section of MJ's book that I literally was like screw this guy, he stole the words right out of my mouth for the book I would have written in twenty years. I still remember my first day of ECON101. Walk into class, sit down with 400 other students, and find out my teacher is a 23 year old guy who double majored in business management and finance. His exact words were "I'm going to teach you how to make a million dollars." The only problem was, for me... that I saw the hypocrisy in the fact that a 23 year old guy that had never left the WSU campus or owned a business, was going to teach me about making a multi million dollar business. 400 of us paying $35 per class to a guy who had ZERO experience. There is something SERIOUSLY wrong with that.

My second wake up call was going to ME110 for mechanical engineering. My teacher was a graduate of WSU in my degree of interest! After two years in the field, he couldn't keep a job because he was just too underqualified and couldn't do what was demanded of him. His fond memories of drinking and romping with beer-chubs, loosely moralled girls from his days at the fine WSU campus called out to him. After two more years of school, he was back at WSU teaching my class, for the first time.

For the record, MJ's example in the book is going to a "health" cooking class being taught by a fat guy, hahaha.

Wake up call #3 happened in my second calculus class. My first teacher didn't speak English. He actually taught our class of 400 in which 30 attended in Italian. True story. My second class was taught by a scruffy old guy with his shirt un-buttoned who sipped Jack Daniels during class and would randomly go on rants about his recent divorce. This reinforced wake up calls #1 and #2, but then there was my Calc TA, teachers assistant. Twice a week we would meet with this guy in a classroom with 30 other students from the 400. Only 4 or 5 of us ever showed up. It just so happens... this guy was a former mathematician at NASA, who was going around to PAC10 schools teaching Calculus for free to students. His pay came in the emotional reward of passing on his knowledge to younger people, and I will never, ever forget him. Time and time again, he could explain the most complicated problems methodically, and above the level required for the class. If class was only 45 minutes, there wasn't a problem if we stayed for an hour and a half, his time wasn't bound to his wealth equation. He was the best teacher I've ever had.

Back in my 6 x 8 frat room shared with another guy, I started to think "does anyone feel like this is a complete joke besides me? Am I completely alone? Does no one realize we are paying the wrong people to teach us!?" And that's when I found Steve Jobs 2005 commencement speech at Stanford. Validation. I recently got another dose of validation after reading MJ's book.

It's been 3 years, and I've done everything under the sun since then. Been burned, seen great success, partied harder than the college kids, and am not in debt 60k, but have 60k in the bank. I just quit a job a software engineering job at Microsoft after learning programming from books authored by THE sources on the topics. While there, I got to see countless Computer Science majors a year older than I fail and be fired, while I continually got given more responsibilities. Now I'm 22, quitting the corporate rat race that all the in debt college grads are so eager to get into for the next 30 years. Pro experience under my belt, fat paychecks saved up to finance my living expenses during startup, and nothing but freedom and love of what I do ahead.

#endrant

True knowledge and true wealth is more important than a "real education."

Great post, taken right out of my own mind!

I just dropped out a few weeks ago and don't have the successes you had so far, but the reasoning for dropping out was the exact same for me!

 

[dknise]

Great post, taken right out of my own mind!

I just dropped out a few weeks ago and don't have the successes you had so far, but the reasoning for dropping out was the exact same for me!

You are not alone. It gets pretty lonesome though when 99% of the population disagrees with you.

Kak[/COLOR]]Wow. I stuck with it, but the whole time I felt like I was wasting TONS of my time and money. Totally agree.

When my cashflows permit I am going to bring on apprentices from the colleges around town one at a time. There is no cheap labor like a college student who undervalues themselves. They will drive me in my BMW 7 and assist me in managing my sales force. I will teach them how I went into business for myself before I graduated. Maybe they will actually take something from it and I will get some great cheap assistance.

Haha sorry for the rant, and I hope you didn't take any serious offense to what I said. I left veryyy bitter with a really bad taste in my mouth.

As far as apprentices, that's awesome. I recently contacted my high school and said "hey, any kids you got that don't want to go to college, pass them my way. I'd be glad to come in and give a presentation about the opportunities that are open to them." Hoping it will be a rewarding experience.

 

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[PatrickP]

I REALLY Like your rant!

I went to college for 4 years and LOVED IT!

I rarely went to class, played a ton of tennis, drank a ton of beer and had lots of fun with a TON of girls.

Most would say I accomplished nothing as I didn't even graduate but

I wouldn't trade those 4 years for all the money in the world. In fact I wish I would have kept going another couple of years.

 

[FastlaneTiger]

This is the most demotivating, depressing thread that I've ever read.

 

[ArthurDayne]

The people that generally are impressed with higher education for the most part are other people with higher education.

With that in mind, a topical joke:

Q: how can you tell someone went to Princeton?
A: they told you.

 

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[ArthurDayne]

As for my views on this, I generally agree with the OP. My #1 issue with this great forum is that people *immediately* write off the value of 1) education and 2) work experience without considering the benefits. I'm amazed at how many 17 year olds pop onto here living in their parents' basements thinking that getting a job is to admit defeat in life, and that going to school is a waste of time. Of course the end goal is fastlane freedom. But in getting there, having some experience (even slowlane experience god forbid), some education, and some startup capital from a job can really help.

That said, if you're not going into high finance, $200k on a degree is a crippling decision and I don't support it. As a Canadian my university cost $20,000 total for all 4 years, which I paid easily cutting grass in the summers. Housing was $400 a month. It's manageable.

My experience:
- Psychology degree, minor in Chinese
- Moved to China on a scholarship to learn more Mandarin
- Did an MBA in Canada ($60,000 minus a ton of scholarships and bursaries more than halved the cost)
- Got a job paying 6 figures out of school, and it only went up from there - was debt free within 6 months
- 3 years later I'm working a job I love, saving tons of money and learning a lot so I can start a hedge fund in 5+ years. Working on writing on the side. Buying assets.

The whole job-and-education thing can work out ok, even when you're still working towards the fastlane.

If it's not crippling cost-wise, getting an education can be worth it. Writing it off as "not fastlane enough" I think is misguided. It's not for everyone, but it's for some of us.

 

[Vigilante]

I had a kid painting at my home the other day. He just finished college at the University of Minnesota recently. He busted his a$$ to get through college, and paid cash for the first two years. He took loans for the last two years, and came out of college with a degree in German, and $40,000 worth of debt. His immediate plans are to continue painting. Why? His degree... is in German. The language. He's got to paint a lot to survive, and pay off his $40k debt just to get back to even.

Assume his peers didn't go to college. They started painting 4 years ago. They're 4 years better established than he is, and if they did it right, they have zero debt against his $40,000 debt. Not only do they have 4 years worth of street advantage, but no long term debt. Even if he earns more than they do if he pursues his credentialed profession (debatable on numerous fronts) the crossover point for him as to when the ROI of his degree made sense is a decade or more from now.

Nobody told him that when he was sitting in the high school career counselors office selecting which college he was going to attend.

He's one of the "lucky" ones because he busted his a$$, and as such his debt is only $40k. Most kids don't want to work as hard as he does/did.

He ultimately will be ok. But will he ever use his degree in German?

 

[NicoleMarie]

Ah what the heck, I'll contribute too. First of all, thank you Jack. I'd like to offer differing points for the sake of discussion.

#1: I agree that college is a must if you're going into a difficult AND in-demand job, such as a doctor, lawyer, etc. However, I think it comes down to asking what value you're really getting for all that time and money. I'm willing to bet successful people didn't drop out because they were quitters or lazy, but because they simply didn't see the value. We're talking around $60,000 and 5-6 years for me to get a Bachelor's Degree (4 years for this degree isn't actually accurate). Now just imagine how far you could progress in 6 years and with all that time and college money saved. Are you willing to spend all those resources in the hopes of making friends and having a great time? I tried hard, but I not only met MORE people, but better QUALITY people just on this forum in 1 month than 3 years of college.

#2: Yes it's true, there is no shortage of access to free/cheap knowledge right on trusty Google and Youtube. Starting a business also gives you a lot to show to future employers if you decide the business route isn't for you. Do you know how much knowledge you could offer even if you failed? In fact, I've noticed myself actually getting SHARPER since starting a business due to the level of multitasking/problem solving needed, and I'm just getting started. The younger you are, the more efficiently you can learn. In my opinion, use that for your business, not for killing that intelligence with alcohol and all nighters. If worst comes to worst, go back to college and try that route.

#3: I've tried both ends and even though I've only been in startup mode for 2 months, it's a massive difference. I was stressing BIG time about my next on campus college because not only would I have to share 1 bathroom/shower with 3 other girls, but I'd also be required to take public speaking classes and other classes that I don't even want, plus major debt. Let's not forget the constant looming thoughts that maybe there isn't a 100% chance your high paying dream job will be waiting just for you when you're done. I'd have to live at home again, try to find a job, and try to save up money/pay off my loan. That adds another how many years.

#4: I considered working on a business while in college, but that's splitting your time into classes, homework, job, business, free time, sleep. Plus it could be a headwind if you're too exhausted after all that. Why not go all out and intense with just a business and maybe a part time job if you need it?

#5: I got grants and scholarships but I still would've had to pay about $30,000 total of money I didn't have. Basically, in order for my decision to switch college for a business to be a bad decision, I'd have to spend more than/lose $30,000 on my business.


Here's what it comes down to. It all depends on what YOU consider valuable. Some people would be miserable in college and just see it as a big inconvenience, while others would say it's the time of their lives. You can't predict 100% how it will go, but then again, you can't with a business either. We all have something lots of those failed businesses don't and that's the odds skewed in our favor. We have MJ's book and this forum, as well as the drive to find the success he did.
Hopefully this gave another perspective from someone who went to college.

 

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[Blhhi]

Are you willing to spend all those resources in the hopes of making friends and having a great time? I tried hard, but I not only met MORE people, but better QUALITY people just on this forum in 1 month than 3 years of college.

This. A thousand times this.

Never, ever, ever let anyone tell you to go to college to "get the experience" and "live life." These people are gauranteed to have spent 70% of their "experience" sitting in boring classes, their dorm rooms, or the library. You know where I met the coolest people my age? Japan.

I went to Japan two years ago with my own money because the school trip cost too much and I refused to be left behind. At the hostel I stayed in, I met a graphics programmer and 3D animator from California, a poet from China, a soccer player from France, and a "mathlete" who came to the country for some competitions. These guys were awesome, between 18 and 24, and provided much more interesting conversation in 2 weeks than I got in the 2 years I had spent in college to that point.

If you want to live life and meet people, go live life and meet people. But please, dear god, don't go to college!

 

[NicoleMarie]

This. A thousand times this.

Never, ever, ever let anyone tell you to go to college to "get the experience" and "live life." These people are gauranteed to have spent 70% of their "experience" sitting in boring classes, their dorm rooms, or the library. You know where I met the coolest people my age? Japan.

I went to Japan two years ago with my own money because the school trip cost too much and I refused to be left behind. At the hostel I stayed in, I met a graphics programmer and 3D animator from California, a poet from China, a soccer player from France, and a "mathlete" who came to the country for some competitions. These guys were awesome, between 18 and 24, and provided much more interesting conversation in 2 weeks than I got in the 2 years I had spent in college to that point.

If you want to live life and meet people, go live life and meet people. But please, dear god, don't go to college!

That sounds awesome!! I agree, don't need college to meet people. Thanks for the $ too.

 

[FastlaneTiger]

@Vigilante
I love you so much. [HASHTAG]#nohomo[/HASHTAG]

 

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[Vigilante]

hashtag made me laugh out loud. not lol, but literally laugh out loud.

 

[PSDSH]

No offense to the youngins in here, but how interesting can an 18-23 year old be? The most interesting people I know are all 60+ years old. Vietnam vets that came back and carved out a life for themselves are the most interesting to me. I can't imagine having had to go to that hell hole against your will. (The Draft)

 

[NicoleMarie]

No offense to the youngins in here, but how interesting can an 18-23 year old be? The most interesting people I know are all 60+ years old. Vietnam vets that came back and carved out a life for themselves are the most interesting to me. I can't imagine having had to go to that hell hole against your will. (The Draft)

A 60 year old may very well be more interesting, but young people can't relate to old people as well as young people.

 

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[PSDSH]

A 60 year old may very well be more interesting, but young people can't relate to old people as well as young people.

Oh yeah, I know. My sons are 24 & 28 years old.

 

[FastlaneTiger]

Everyone is different. Entrepreneurship is not for everyone.

 

[458]

If your dumb going in, your gonna be dumb coming out.. As in, if your not smart enough to understand that choosing the right major, not going into debt, and other misc decisions will effect you later in life, then it really doesn't matter whether you go to college or not. Eventually your ignorance will catch up to you either way.

 

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[Phones]

No offense to the youngins in here, but how interesting can an 18-23 year old be?

They are probably the most naive and open to change, they know they don't know shit and have everything to learn. So if you're experienced they will soak up anything valuable you have to share and work their a$$ off to "pay" you back. At least that how I see myself.


Regarding college, I've spent 2 years there, one in Engineering and one in Business Management. I didn't learn anything I couldn't have learned in 2 or 3 weeks of actually learning/applying, minus the waking up at 6am to "be present" for the morning 8 to 2pm classes, and have no energy for the rest of the afternoon.

 

[DeletedUser394]

I'm amazed at how many 17 year olds pop onto here living in their parents' basements thinking that getting a job is to admit defeat in life, and that going to school is a waste of time.

Love this post.

Don't hold your breath on that, the circlejerk is too strong.

Naive children thinking they possess a gift. Spend all their time talking about how great fastlane is, how jobs are the devil, etc. Nothing but talk, ad nauseam. Easy to say that when Mommy is paying your rent.

Can't fault them, I've been there.

 

[Harley]

no --- for the most part, there's only 2 reasons to go to college :

1. to postpone adulthood for a while or
2. because you want to enter a field, such as being an automotive engineer, that require it

I am more and more convinced that business degrees are worth almost nothing.

There was a really funny episode of dragons den in Canada a few years back, where some University students actually got the backing of the Dragons and the Dragons flew in to hand over the cheque. However, the business students professor was there to act as an advisor for the students and started to question the dragons over their academic business credentials and even belittled jim treliving for flying in on his private Jet. robert herjavec actually ripped up the cheque in front of him. Irony is this guy was working the slow lane for a pittance and lecturing these guys on their academic skills, all of whom who could buy his whole town and many Ferraris in one day.

 

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[Harley]

There was a really funny episode of dragons den in Canada a few years back, where some University students actually got the backing of the Dragons and the Dragons flew in to hand over the cheque. However, the business students professor was there to act as an advisor for the students and started to question the dragons over their academic business credentials and even belittled jim treliving for flying in on his private Jet. robert herjavec actually ripped up the cheque in front of him. Irony is this guy was working the slow lane for a pittance and lecturing these guys on their academic skills, all of whom who could buy his whole town and many Ferraris in one day.

Here's the clip -

 

[Brentnal]

1. to postpone adulthood for a while

Yep thats me i am on this forum for 1,5 years now and i'm still finding myself,i am quite complicating