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How deep does this "FAKE GURU" market actually go?

TreyAllDay

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MJ is right, they make money by faking that they have money then they start investing to generate more income - It probably is DEEPER than we can never imagine. My current solution is to MUTE all that crap and stick to the CENTS to make CENTS!

This is what I stick to or try to. I often have to step out of my own head and realize a lot of the time I am looking at these guys for inspiration when things get hectic, but you don't need it to be successful - just stick to the basics.

Dan Lok??? never heard of him but you have piqued my curiosity lol.
 
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Xeon

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MTEE1985

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I’m relistening to some of Kung fu Steve’s stuff and he hits it on the head. Most coaches or “gurus” sell themselves on their way being the best way and only way.

A good coach will challenge you to find the best way yourself. At the end of the day the “guru” who prompts YOU to take action and motivates YOU is the best one.
 

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Sure are a lot of belief systems in this thread :smile2:
 
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If people aren't going to go to Uni and they aren't willing to take any courses then you are going to spend 5-10 years just figuring out the basics on a lot of stuff.

People are mixing together obviously BS gurus with highly valueable educational courses.

Imagine you are a smaller business owner during the bootstrap stage:
Fix your marketing and advertising > photoshop course
Take better product and service images > photography course
Tell a better company and back story > writing / persuasion course

You could find all of these (and lots are really well done) on sites like skillshare or udemy for around $20.

Same goes for SEO, Adwords, Video Marketing, Youtube Ranking, Copywriting, Product Creation, Color Theory, Packaging, Customer Service, and so on.

"And all courses are bad" mentality is like saying most food is bad you will stop eating. Yes you have shady gurus that 90% of people will buy off but you also have tons of reasonability priced authentic courses that will show you how to get a huge edge on your competition.

People are always going to want to learn from experts. As universities become even more of an overpriced joke the market is going to explode. Learn to figure out what courses are worth it and use those (if you need to) to move ahead.
 

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My 2 cents. This gurus get wealthy from all the newbies who are hoping to be rich but haven't been scammed yet, and they don't do any investigating before they buy a program. They are sucked in by eloquent speakers who make them envious with their flashy cars or whatever.

I would buy a program that I think could help me but every freakin "webinar" has the same systematic approach and the same $497 or $997 price tag that just comes off as same old, same old, to those who have been around. And you can never just buy the program for that price, there's always an upsell that makes you feel like; well, what the hell am I getting for a thousand bucks then if I gotta spend more?? Ya know. It's so unethical I hate it all.
 

TreyAllDay

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If people aren't going to go to Uni and they aren't willing to take any courses then you are going to spend 5-10 years just figuring out the basics on a lot of stuff..

I guess it also depends the type of learner you are. I took 2 years of acounting + online after university courses in accounting and still didnt grasp it until I dove into it myself for my business.


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TreyAllDay

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Seems like the feel I am getting from this thread, and my experience, is courses are fine - uprading skills you need on udemy for example. But these hyper-reality gurus with extra big persoanlities seems to be the red flag.

Come to think of it - I've taken some incredible online (even free) courses from people I've never even heard of nor can I remember.

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The other day I was feeling risky so I acted on a Tai Lopez ad for a new program he was offering. knowledge society or something. For a low price point he will give access to inside information and education on several niches sort of like a netflix for niche learning. Just pick a topic you want to learn about and boom you have access. I thought i'll bite, maybe I can learn something or find a niche that I can get excited about.

After declining about 15 upsells before I finally got to my product that I purchased. I click on a subject I wanted to learn about. So what was it? Instead of learning or teaching it was just another advertisement to get me to buy the full course on that topic. So I tried a different subject. Same thing. So basically I am paying a monthly fee to let him advertise programs to me. Unbelievable. Of course I cancelled, which was surprisingly easy.
 

TreyAllDay

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The other day I was feeling risky so I acted on a Tai Lopez ad for a new program he was offering. knowledge society or something. For a low price point he will give access to inside information and education on several niches sort of like a netflix for niche learning. Just pick a topic you want to learn about and boom you have access. I thought i'll bite, maybe I can learn something or find a niche that I can get excited about.

After declining about 15 upsells before I finally got to my product that I purchased. I click on a subject I wanted to learn about. So what was it? Instead of learning or teaching it was just another advertisement to get me to buy the full course on that topic. So I tried a different subject. Same thing. So basically I am paying a monthly fee to let him advertise programs to me. Unbelievable. Of course I cancelled, which was surprisingly easy.
Hmmm. A peek on the inside of these programs. Thanks for sharing.

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focusedlife

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Most of the big name players I've dealt with will spill the beans (or most of it anyway) in the front end offer. They're making the green on the back end, with the audience that wants more hands-on or DFY services.

I think he's nailed it.

It's been reinforced for me by other folk's observation and my own experience.

One of the models that folks espouse is teach'em what to do, maybe not HOW to do it, but even if the how is taught, you can still sell them the EASIER way to do it on the back end (this includes DONE FOR YOU or some sorta SAAS tool, perhaps).

It's an old take on moving the freeline.

Do what you must, but realize, MOST of the stuff out there is repositioned, repolished, rehashed stuff that isn't new, per se, but is new to you, maybe.
 

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"I'm a millionaire, just buy my course". Hmmm sounds legit.

I bought a few courses in my earlier days. I wouldn't recommend buying 95% of the courses out there. Why? Because they don't usually teach you how to offer anything proprietary. Something UNIQUE. The Purple Cow.

I'm sure you know how it's super trendy right now to be starting up your own Social Media Marketing Agency(Thanks Tai Lopez!). Literally EVERY DAY I get some inexperienced guy calling my biz with the same pitch probably given to them by a guru...

"Just to prove my worth I'll run FB ads for you without charging any fees for now, you just pay the ad spend". EVERY DAY I get these calls and I hate it. I admire and respect the hustle, but there's no unique selling proposition there.

Build a biz that offers something proprietary so you don't have 1,000 other people giving the exact same pitch. You'll have less competition(especially at the higher end) and will be able to command a higher price.

This nailed it absolutely!

This post explained it really well:

From Personality Cults to Collective Intelligence: The Democratization of Education Online

There’s a major shift occurring in the world of small business education, coaching, and training.
One group of bloggers, content marketers, and educators have gone on to start self-funded software companies. Another group has moved toward building agencies and practices that deliver precise execution and hands-on support.

A third group is saying, “It’s just not working anymore.”

Those that say “it’s not working” are largely those who have relied on personality-driven brands and the development of the online course market. This market developed out of a desire for education to be accessible to the masses. Unfortunately, what was envisioned and sold as a democratization of business education has become anything but. The premium personality brands peddle their wares with the help of mobs of fawning affiliates while aspiring personalities aim to get a small piece of the pie.

This third group has employed the “gatekeeper model” — which thrives by sequestering “the good stuff” behind a paywall. The reason they’re experiencing diminishing returns is simple…

The rest of the market has already moved away from gatekeepers and towards the Access Economy.
 

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Sure are a lot of belief systems in this thread
That's the crazy thing though. I've probably read more money-negative sentiments on this forum (from low ranking members of course) than any other content outlet or discussion space. I wonder what dynamic is at play there. Like, people wanting to go where the message is "you can get rich" just to shit on it for ego-massaging everything-is-futile self-indulgence purposes.

That Dan Lok guy, who I was actually introduced to by someone here (thanks whoever it was), is a clear cut case of a self made man. And he lays out the entire deal:
  • Was poor when young.
  • Kept borrowing money from family & friends to start businesses and failing them.
  • Then deliberately sought out a highly successful older mentor in the space he was targeting, either outright paying them for internship/mentorship, or by giving gifts.
  • Stopped screwing around with random businesses and targeted a core skill: copywriting. Did that until he got north of $10k/month (active income).
  • Worked like a dog, didn't chase after chicks (just picked one girl and stuck with her), didn't drink and waste time with friends.
  • Then moved into marketing generally & digital products.
  • Then diversified out into business & consulting generally.
  • Then the guru stuff.
None of that trajectory looks off what can be achieved by someone doing the same thing he did: identifying (or being shown due to his much older & wiser mentor's) a trending growing demand for a skill(today it might be something like machine learning or data science), marketing it & contracting/freelancing it, getting his rate high, then hiring others and building passive income products/services to raise time-decoupled recurring revenue, then using the money to continue expanding marketing efforts, products, businesses, etc.

None of that is rocket science or fake. That's how most people have succeeded.
Apprentice. Journeyman. Master.
Qualified guidance. Build skill. Market. Raise rates. Start productizing. Retain earnings. Use revenues & freed up time to leverage. Spiral it upwards.
Many working for one. Few working for one. One working for one. One working for few. One working for many.
 
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Kung Fu Steve

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That's the crazy thing though. I've probably read more money-negative sentiments on this forum (from low ranking members of course) than any other content outlet or discussion space. I wonder what dynamic is at play there. Like, people wanting to go where the message is "you can get rich" just to sh*t on it for ego-massaging everything-is-futile self-indulgence purposes.

That Dan Lok guy, who I was actually introduced to by someone here (thanks whoever it was), is a clear cut case of a self made man. And he lays out the entire deal:
  • Was poor when young.
  • Kept borrowing money from family & friends to start businesses and failing them.
  • Then deliberately sought out a highly successful older mentor in the space he was targeting, either outright paying them for internship/mentorship, or by giving gifts.
  • Stopped screwing around with random businesses and targeted a core skill: copywriting. Did that until he got north of $10k/month (active income).
  • Worked like a dog, didn't chase after chicks (just picked one girl and stuck with her), didn't drink and waste time with friends.
  • Then moved into marketing generally & digital products.
  • Then diversified out into business & consulting generally.
  • Then the guru stuff.
None of that trajectory looks off what can be achieved by someone doing the same thing he did: identifying (or being shown due to his much older & wiser mentor's) a trending growing demand for a skill(today it might be something like machine learning or data science), marketing it & contracting/freelancing it, getting his rate high, then hiring others and building passive income products/services to raise time-decoupled recurring revenue, then using the money to continue expanding marketing efforts, products, businesses, etc.

None of that is rocket science or fake. That's how most people have succeeded.
Apprentice. Journeyman. Master.
Qualified guidance. Build skill. Market. Raise rates. Start productizing. Retain earnings. Use revenues & freed up time to leverage. Spiral it upwards.
Many working for one. Few working for one. One working for one. One working for few. One working for many.

I think it's just a misinterpretation.

This forum started (not to put words in mouths) because people were sick and tired of the bullshit.

Someone we all know wrote an incredible book on business... with none of his own ideas... because they were stolen from a-now-friend-of-mine... and he claimed he was rich when he started giving advice...

Then our good friend MJ came out with a brilliant question "What came first, your book or your black card?"

It got people to start asking a REALLY good question: "Should I dedicate all of my time and energy on advice that this person isn't even following? Are they really walking their talk?"

Probably one of the most powerful and influential questions someone could ask -- and we have MJ to thank for putting together a place where we can question things.

The only problem is in the fanatics... they've been so cynical for such a long time that NOTHING works and NOTHING will ever work.

They see an ad for someone who teaches business owners how to run facebook ads and they start screaming with pitchforks.

Jesus, man... it's facebook ads -- not a guy on a yacht with bikini clad women. Calm down.

On the other hand, I will say there has been a BOOM in people popping up on the scene again telling us how successful they are and if only they purchased their thing, they would be successful, too.

I'm just as annoyed but I don't stay there... the very fact that we are sitting here discussing this stuff seems a little silly to me but at the end of the day my question is who cares?

You've bought into a guru here. I think it's a good choice. MJ has made me a lot of money over the years. Millions of people buy into my organization year in and year out. I think that's a great choice.

Bottom line: find teachers who have your best interests in mind and once you are sure that thing is for you -- devote your time, money, and energy into reading their books, learning how they think, and most importantly APPLYING what you learned.
 

GoGetter24

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You've bought into a guru here
I don't considered DeMarco or Lok gurus. I consider them winners. So I pay attention. I add them to the "pieces of the puzzle".

This is definitely the key rule. Unless someone has made notable achievements outside of coaching, and you see proof, they shouldn't get a moment of your attention in matters of advice.
 

TreyAllDay

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None of that trajectory looks off what can be achieved by someone doing the same thing he did: identifying (or being shown due to his much older & wiser mentor's) a trending growing demand for a skill(today it might be something like machine learning or data science), marketing it & contracting/freelancing it, getting his rate high, then hiring others and building passive income products/services to raise time-decoupled recurring revenue, then using the money to continue expanding marketing efforts, products, businesses, etc.

I don't know man - something about it just seems so off to me. I can't mass-label the whole industry but they always seem to be peddling these super convoluted markets that everyone and their dog is dying to get a piece of: Social media marketing, business/marketing consulting, life coaching, copy-writing.
 
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GoGetter24

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I don't know man - something about it just seems so off to me. I can't mass-label the whole industry but they always seem to be peddling these super convoluted markets that everyone and their dog is dying to get a piece of: Social media marketing, business/marketing consulting, life coaching, copy-writing.
I think the cause and effect is the other way around though.

There's a large demand for all that stuff. So many directionless people. So many crowd-followers. It's a ripe market. These guys are a creation, not a cause.

It's an age old case of selling shovels.
First you get on the bandwagon early enough that you can make good money with it.
Then people start to hear about the bandwagon and pile on.
At that point it's not worth being on the bandwagon. But you now know the bandwagon trade inside out. So you sell to the pilers-on instead of being one of them.

The best reason to avoid copywriting (and social media marketing etc) is that you decided to do it because people on the internet said it's a good way to make money. By the time that happens, you're just catching a ripple -- the pebble dropped 10 years ago.

But no one teaches this rule. Which is why for instance people will get aggressive when you call crypto a pure bandwagon, or still be dreaming up "killer apps" in 2018 despite current average app store downloads of zero, or be starting an affiliate marketing blog. They want to run on faith and the comfortable certainty of doing what other people claim works. And so they buy shovels, which the rich guys sell to them.

Instead: better to pay attention to the process behind how they got rich. How they got the front-line trend information. The fundamental differences in how they behaved. That's their real value.
 

MTF

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Fake gurus are one problem, and the general low-quality of online content is another.

You look for information how to start a business, you get an article written by a freelance writer who "researched" the topic and wrote an article based on somebody else's article based on somebody else's article. You surely know a lot about business just because you wrote fifty listicles for business websites (this applies to big publications like Forbes, too).

You look for nutritional advice, you get regurgitated advice from freelance writers who did their "research" by googling other similar articles. I feel like throwing up when reading another BS article with the same fitness myths that were debunked three decades ago.

You look for advice on how to invest, you get advice from a guy who's a finance freelance writer - not an investor. Yeah, tell me how to invest money in the stock market while you don't even have a brokerage account.

Quora is a perfect example of this, too. People posting there aren't freelance writers, but their articles are written in the same way - based on something they learned by googling it. But I guess that people feel good reading something they already know about - it makes them feel smart and is comfortable (like listening to a song you've already heard hundreds of times before).

I find it harder and harder to find solid how-to content written by an expert. More and more often, articles are outsourced to freelance writers who don't grasp even the basic fundamentals. But they're good at copying and pasting (while making sure that they use different words) and their rates are affordable, so it's all good, right?

I'm curious: when was the last time you read a truly original piece of content? I feel like at least 80-90% of stuff I'm reading nowadays is something I've already read before.
 
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TreyAllDay

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You look for information how to start a business, you get an article written by a freelance writer who "researched" the topic and wrote an article based on somebody else's article based on somebody else's article. You surely know a lot about business just because you wrote fifty listicles for business websites (this applies to big publications like Forbes, too).

This is true - I follow Entrepreneur.com and YoungEntrepreneur.com and I swear 90% of the advice is written by people who have no clue what they are talking about.
 

MJ DeMarco

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This is true - I follow Entrepreneur.com and YoungEntrepreneur.com and I swear 90% of the advice is written by people who have no clue what they are talking about.

Same thing goes for financial dogma...

Not sure how many more times I need to read about how saving $10 a week for 50 years is going to make you rich. Every. Damn. Week.
 
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MTEE1985

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Same thing goes for financial dogma...

Not sure how many more times I need to read about how saving $10 a week for 50 years is going to make you rich. Every. Damn. Week.

Dammit MJ, I couldn’t help myself and googled “Save $10 a week” now I have a headache...and also a solid plan to retire with thousands of dollars to my name by the time I’m 65!
 

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This is true - I follow Entrepreneur.com and YoungEntrepreneur.com and I swear 90% of the advice is written by people who have no clue what they are talking about.

And it's a shame, because people who are new to entrepreneurship don't know yet how to discern between legitimate and BS advice. I guess that's why it's so lucrative to be a fake business guru. Easy to sell the dream to people who don't know any better.

It's almost always when I read a book that was published more than 30 years ago.

Which is where I try to spend most of my reading time these days.

Yes, I've found it to be the case, too. I need to change my reading habits. It's easier to find new books to read, but you can find more value in the minds of people who lived before the era of Internet and didn't have access to thousands of articles all saying the same thing. They had to be creative themselves and come up with original ideas.
 

Andy Black

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Those who CAN DO, do.

Those who CAN'T DO, fake teach.
We hear this line a lot. I have to disagree.

For many people, teaching is a calling.

Teaching is also a separate skill from the subject matter you’re teaching, and it’s bloody hard work teaching people so they “get” it.

The biggest satisfaction is getting people to the point where they can go it alone. This isn’t just about helping them gain technical skills, but also the confidence and mindset to get started, and keep going.


Me personally, I like doing, and I also like helping other people learn too.

Not just Google Ads, but helping local teenagers pass their Maths exams, helping forum members with whatever they’re stuck on, helping friends and family with whatever they’re stuck on.

You might know me as “The AdWords Guy” in TFLF.

I’m “The CV Guy” and “The Maths Guy” to nieces and nephews.

I like to leave breadcrumbs where I can (the latest example is the “Paid email newsletters” progress thread). This gives me more clarity, and helps other people. Tbh, it doesn’t matter if no-one read it or followed. I’d do it anyway.


People have bought my course and got value from it.

It bothers me a bit that I haven’t pushed the course more and helped more people.

Part of the reason why I haven’t is because I don’t want to do any personal branding outside of TFLF, but the main reason is I haven’t figured out how to do it and not need a shower afterwards.

Not yet anyway.



Here’s a few lines I bear in mind when figuring out who’s full of BS and who’s not:

“Tell me what you’ve done and I’ll tell you who you are.”

“People listen to experts, they follow leaders.”

Follow people who are DOING, heading in the direction you want to go, and who (intentionally or unintentionally) leave breadcrumbs behind.
 
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Andy Black

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For social media agencies, I think I'd just go the Andy Black route where basically I'm building my own brand. For example, everyone at this forum knows Andy as THE Adwords guy.

So perhaps get some credibility by doing interviews, get into the newspaper, get some video testimonials, do whatever you can do build the personal brand.
I find this really interesting (and thanks for the shoutout).

We all start with and have a personal brand. “Diesel and coffee” is what gets the ball rolling. Once the ball is rolling then I think we should build brands that aren’t related to our personal brand.

I believe that if you’re still operating off just your personal named website then you’re a freelancer or consultant rather than a business owner.

I’m nuking andyblack.net and will make it a short bio site, like my Linkedin profile (which no longer says I’m a “Freelance AdWords Consultant” either).

I want to build brands that aren’t personal ones.
 

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I believe that if you’re still operating off just your personal named website then you’re a freelancer or consultant rather than a business owner.

A hundred percent.

As an entrepreneur, I'm tired of articles (probably written by freelance writers) emphasizing how important your personal brand is. What happened to good old brands that you buy simply because they offer great services or products? Do you want your costumers to read about you or your product and the results it can generate for them?

Moreover, if you have a personal brand business, good luck selling it (I know this painfully well). If you can't sell it because it won't run properly without you, it's more of a career than a proper business.

As a client, I'm tired of it, too. I don't care who's the CEO of Logitech. I don't care one iota about his "personal brand." I don't want to subscribe to a blog about their products or read about their employees. All I care about is that I bought their mouse and it's the best mouse I've ever used.

Building a personal brand can make entrepreneurs focus on the wrong thing. It's not about you - it's about what you can do for the client. You don't have to share what you had for breakfast and plaster your face all over your website because they say that people buy from people. It's what you offer that counts, not who you are.

First and foremost, people care about themselves. I'd rather buy a great product from a "faceless" company than an average product from a "personal brand."
 

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