Lex DeVille's: Guru Cults Exposed: The Tactics "Experts" Use To Pull You In & Suck You Dry

[Brad S]

One more thing:

I saw this video about 4 years ago.

Not only is it hilarious but it is about as relevant as it gets for this topic.

View: https://youtu.be/Z0LZ6DNCgrY


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[ApparentHorizon]

Edison is central in a ring of some of the most persuasive people who ever lived in the United States such as Rockefeller, Carnegie, JP Morgan.

JP Morgan backed Edison and they were wrong about direct current electricity but they still managed to crush Tesla and his backer and get their patents that formed General Electric.

Edison and Rockefeller put out huge amounts of propaganda.

Rockefeller saying that electricity is dangerous.

Edison saying kerosene lamps are dangerous.

Carnegie was known to seek out persuasive people to befriend and learn from.

He was friends with Mark Twain.

Supposedly Think and Grow Rich Existing is mostly because of Carnegie.

None of these guys had technical skills in the things they built their monopolies on.

They had to convince many people to help them.

They also had to anticipate all their enemies moves including the U.S. government that tried to hold them back.

It seems whenever there is a huge fortune, empire or social change you have a master persuader initiating most of it.

All the way back to Julius Caesar and his legendary rhetorical skills.

Through the robber barons.

To people alive today:

Doctor Phil, Tony Robbins, Conor McGregor, and Donald Trump.

It's hard to underestimate the power of understanding human nature.

Then applying it to your goals.





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He didn't just stop the Gov't, he took it over.

There's speculation that the fed was set up based on this quote, from Rothschild, "Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws!"

The second piece of that puzzle is the education system, with Rockefeller founding the General Education board.

Forget trying to convince a group of people to buy your ideas. Build them from the ground up accepting it.

Tabula Rasa. We are born a blank slate. A vessel in which we can pour ideas into. if we are to take John Locke's interpretation of it.

 

[GMSI7D]

you guys are very aware of this scam world

it is very surprising and a good feeling because most people are so programmed that they wouldn't even tolerate such a topic on their forum . the author would be banned or something


so here is a good estimation of this world

yes i am a bit "arrogant" with the bottom of the pyramid

but as an INTJ, i can't help but disliking stupidity. i won't change that.

we are in a mess because of these irrational people so i can't accept that

illuminati guys are not the problem.

the problem is people who don't care about the truth: the masses

 

[GMSI7D]

gurus are just humans who own themselves

since they are smart, they say:


" wait a minute, if people need someone to follow, why don't i play the saviour ? "


so the solution is starting by owning our lives


i am not a follower of BS , you will never find me in a popular show on TV , all this BS that insult awareness


i am the General of my life, commander in chief and everything else

i have battles to win, i have a philosophy to honor and so on









---> you should start to look at things this way too if you would honor awareness


hint : most people won't do that. this the pareto principle at work, as usual

since they won't do that, they will follow people that think this way


--> as usual, this is a yang yin process at work







it reminds me of an ancient saying :

" act as if and it will be done onto you as you believe "


in case you don't understand, intelligence crowns itself. the yang won't ask the yin for permission.

that's what gurus are doing.

 

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[CDM]

GREAT stuff @SinisterLex!

 

[GMSI7D]

1) Now obviously Tai Lopez and Grant Cardone both have high EQ.


2) Harry Houdini was obviously a magician and illusionist.

3) All someone needs to manipulate us is to have an understanding of our fears, desires, hopes, ambitions, greed and laziness.

4) The notion that someone other than ourselves can solve our problems.


5) The person who's perfectly content, looking for nothing, has no desires and has no fears, cannot be manipulated.

6) I think the best defense against gurus and con men is to become one.

7) Knowing them better than they know themselves.


8) A vampire can sense when another vampire is near.





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1) i would say Tai Lopez for sure


2) this is very important

mentalism, illusions are very important for any would be con artist

this is mandatory learning

3) yes this the crowd psychology . very important to understand the opponent

the chessboard :

the con artist versus the masses

1-0 most of the time

at the top of society, this 1-0 occuring 95 % of the time by the way

4) yes this is hope . the main weapon of scam activities


someone will save us / the world / america / whatever

this is the basic of manipulation.

any would be con artist can't skip this step. mandatory learning as well .


5) yes . this is well explained in the asian philosophy

Krisnamurti's teaching, Lao Tzu and so on

6) yes. to fight or escape evil, you have to understand evil

mandatory learning as well

7) yes , illuminatis guys know the masses better than they know themselves

crowd psychology again

8 ) yes

this applies to everything

a freemason will spot another freemason among the stupid crowd

a psychopath will spot another psychopath

a Stuart Goldsmith 's Inner Circle member will spot another one

and so on

great minds think alike





by the way, some big events are coming soon....

this year is important for illuminatis guys

the i ching says that this is the right time for would be guru to appear and take advantage of the situation

this is now or never




.

 

[GMSI7D]

so time for a case study


Tai Lopez is seen as a guru

whether the guy is a good guru or not is irrelevant here

we don't say he is a bad guru . we just look at what he does to succeed

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnmfoC_odWk




1 ) first of all : he shows that he is successful . he lives in this big mansion


2) then he shows the basket ball playground and the gym which means that he is a fun guy anyway

he is not a " you rich bast*** " in his office looking down on people.

he is just a fun guy like you and me who became rich

and we can do the same thing as well.


3) then he talks about destiny

he was a poor guy in the street like you and me with no future

but he decided to change his life and since we are smart guys as well , he can help us

4) then he shows his authority

" i traveled in 50 countries " ." i read thousands of books "

while doing a MTV- like tour of his mansion : wealth , power, success


5) then he talks about how you can become succesful as well

here is the next step:


" so i made a test for you. read the 3 letters below"

" this is the exact secrets my mentor told me "

" click the button to access my secret formula / whatever "



Tai is following a proven formula for getting customers attention here


wich is :


1) i was like you : poor / a dork with no future / whatever

2) then i said enough is enough . i look for opportunities

3) i trailed and failed.

4) then i had a breakthough

5) then i achieved success with consistency

6) then i created a method

7) others guys used it and reached success

8) now you can do it too. just click the button below



a good point of his video :

the mansion is so big that the viewers are hypnotized and in awe

---> this is like a child in a giant candy store

you are seduced by the wizard and his wealth

you can't think logicaly anymore here. this is emotional appeal



final point of the video " clik the link below " ( now that you are hypnotized )



---> the blueprint Tai uses is kind of a Jeff Walker 's product launch formula as well

--> the goal is to tease the viewer for what is coming next and create raving fans



well explained in the 36 stratagem book as well

wich is :

Remove the ladder when the enemy has ascended to the roof

• With baits and deceptions, lure your enemy into treacherous terrain. Then cut off his lines of communication and avenue of escape. To save himself, he must fight both your own forces and the elements of nature.

Jeff Walker product launch forumla can be seen as an example of this stratagem

---> you lead people with human triggers then it is too late to refuse to buy the product. they are already seduced

the ladder is removed when they have ascended to the roof

they don't go back , they stay on the roof and buy the product metaphoricaly speaking


gurus use people's mental biaises against them

how powerful

this is the true art of persuasion and deception

like the Aikido philosophy : using the ennemy energy against him


same thing than the boiling frog story

Boiling frog - Wikipedia







.

 

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[GravyBoat]

capitalism has to deal with the human's way of responding to the world

if people were logical, there would be no need for all these tactics designed to make them buy

you would just say :

" dear customer , here are the features of this car. as you can see , this is a safe car. this is a good price so since you are a logical guy , you just have to buy . this is common sense, thanks "

but it doesn't work that way

buying a ferrari is not a logical thing . it is an emotional thing

the first thing you learn when you study manipulation if that you can't manage people with logic

you can't manage your wife / husband with logic

--> you have to use emotions, anything else

you can't manage your children with logic

--> you have to use emotions, anything else


you can't manage your dog with logic

--> you have to use emotions, anything else

you can't manage customers with logic

--> you have to use emotions, anything else

you can't manage the masses with logic

--> you have to use emotions ,anything else

we have to deal with human nature whether we like it or not

we are emotional creatures pretending to be adult and logical


so yes , the problem with emotions and irrational behaviour is that you can manipulate people easily

that's why this topic was created

This is a great post. Really hits home.

 

[GMSI7D]

most people don't care about this topic. they are played anyway in the matrix

they are on the yin side

but i do care and i feed it. because i am on the yang side

explaining things helps to understand them as well

so at least, i am understanfing things better by explaining them whether people care or not

so i am not wasting my time talking in the vacuum


this is what is happening in society :



THE MASSES = YIN = ENERGY TO BE MANAGED



VS

MASTERMINDS GURUS CULT LEADERS VISIONARY STRATEGISTS

YANG




in case you are saying " this is BS anyway ", then i suggest you read this book wich talks about what happened in the world :






hmmmmm....


maybe we should agree with that :









.

 

[GMSI7D]

This is a great post. Really hits home.

you know what ?

i thought that nobody would care about such common sense !!!

i thought that people would care about others things that i explained and that are more important to them !!!!!


so what is the lesson here ?


the lesson is that Eben Pagan and Jay Abraham are absolutely right

we don't know what people want because they don't follow logic or common sense

so we have to TEST everything because we don't know what will work

this is the core of Jay Abraham's philosophy


eveything is a TEST


everything


i would never have thought that people would care for what you mentionned

it seems so obvious to me

 

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[jcvlds]

What do you guys think about Russell Brunson?
His podcast has a subtle background Ferrari-like engine noise throughout his episodes lol... but I’ve heard other people talk about him and his product ClickFunnes.. curious to hear others’ opinion about him


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[jlwilliams]

This topic has got me thinking about a video I saw a few months back.

It's pretty unbelievable.

The video shows Naveen Jain reading the body language of a few different people.

He guesses accurately time after time the number they had written down on a piece of paper.

What makes this interesting is Naveen Jain is a billionaire.

And the people whose body language tells he's reading are Tai Lopez, Grant Cardonne, Elena Cardone, (grants wife) and Tai's model/prop named Kate.
.........

Well, that's not really what he did. He didn't "read" their body language to guess their numbers. That is what mentalists and mysterious performers call the "psychology explanation" and it is the more common lie that people believe today. In generations gone by, you could tell people you were getting messages from spirits or from "The Great Beyond" and they would believe it. No one buys that today. Today's audiences have watched tv shows like "The Mentalist" and Derren Brown so they believe that a well trained mind can read the tells and know the seemingly unknowable. What he's doing is neither magic nor science, but it can be dressed up as either.

I'm not a professional mentalist, I'm a dabbler. Honestly I'm not good enough to be a pro, but it's a fun hobby. Bending spoons and telling people things that there is "no way" I could know can, in the right context, be a mind blower and a ton of fun. I know, in general, what he's doing.

He's doing a classic routine that has been and is still done many ways. How he does it (nuts and bolts "how") isn't relevant and if I knew exactly which method he used I still wouldn't tell because that's uncool. (As an aside, if I meet that "Masked Magician" putsz who did that tv show, I'm kicking him in the jimmy.) What I will say is that his presentation is based on the principle of telling you what you think you already know.

There is significant debate among the mystery performance world about the ethics of what he's doing. Telling people (in his case investors watching) that he has super duper brain power to see what someone really thinks so that they trust his wisdom and invest with him is morally no better than using the same tricks to convince new agers that the performer has contact and sway with the Great Pumpkin. He's using tricks to cultivate dependency. Make no mistake, he's not blowing minds to be the life of the party, he's doing it to build his image as infallible in the eyes of potential investors.

 

[Brad S]

Well, that's not really what he did. He didn't "read" their body language to guess their numbers. That is what mentalists and mysterious performers call the "psychology explanation" and it is the more common lie that people believe today. In generations gone by, you could tell people you were getting messages from spirits or from "The Great Beyond" and they would believe it. No one buys that today. Today's audiences have watched tv shows like "The Mentalist" and Derren Brown so they believe that a well trained mind can read the tells and know the seemingly unknowable. What he's doing is neither magic nor science, but it can be dressed up as either.

I'm not a professional mentalist, I'm a dabbler. Honestly I'm not good enough to be a pro, but it's a fun hobby. Bending spoons and telling people things that there is "no way" I could know can, in the right context, be a mind blower and a ton of fun. I know, in general, what he's doing.

He's doing a classic routine that has been and is still done many ways. How he does it (nuts and bolts "how") isn't relevant and if I knew exactly which method he used I still wouldn't tell because that's uncool. (As an aside, if I meet that "Masked Magician" putsz who did that tv show, I'm kicking him in the jimmy.) What I will say is that his presentation is based on the principle of telling you what you think you already know.

There is significant debate among the mystery performance world about the ethics of what he's doing. Telling people (in his case investors watching) that he has super duper brain power to see what someone really thinks so that they trust his wisdom and invest with him is morally no better than using the same tricks to convince new agers that the performer has contact and sway with the Great Pumpkin. He's using tricks to cultivate dependency. Make no mistake, he's not blowing minds to be the life of the party, he's doing it to build his image as infallible in the eyes of potential investors.

Interesting insight.

You pretty much made my exact argument.

Maybe in an even better way.

What's uncommon is a billionaire with the ability to do this.

And of course who he is doing it to.

Grant Cardone, so called expert negotiator.

Of course I'm also making the point that to get to be a billionaire you almost certainly need high EQ.

But that specific demonstration is still impressive.

I have a pretty good idea HOW he's doing it as well.

I certainly agree with you on the WHY he's doing it.

This may be one of the deepest threads on this forum.

Deceptively so.





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[Lex DeVille]

Watching The Push on Netflix this evening. Worth a watch if you want to see how profound these psychological techniques can be. Derren Brown applies many familiar methods to get a man to push another man from a building using a compliance test followed by small commitments leading to bigger commitments and even the assumption of an alternative identity.

You'll find all of Cialdini's principles of persuasion at play here, as well as the effects of social pressure and their power to persuade. You'll also see how those with money can completely control an experience from start to finish without an individual ever having a clue.

 

[GMSI7D]

Watching The Push on Netflix this evening. Worth a watch if you want to see how profound these psychological techniques can be. Derren Brown applies many familiar methods to get a man to push another man from a building using a compliance test followed by small commitments leading to bigger commitments and even the assumption of an alternative identity.

You'll find all of Cialdini's principles of persuasion at play here, as well as the effects of social pressure and their power to persuade. You'll also see how those with money can completely control an experience from start to finish without an individual ever having a clue.

manipulation is very large so people have to choose. they can't know it all unless they spend 10 years doing it.

Derren Brown chose to learn mentalism and the exploitation of human cognitive biases

this is a good choice for would be con artirst

the weapon used is the perception deception

What do you guys think about Russell Brunson?



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the guy is smart. his wrestling champion background shows that he is not afraid to fight for what he wants and lead the field.

same thing that Ryan Deiss and all these gurus of SEO and so on

they are the yang side of internet marketing

 

[jcvlds]

manipulation is very large so people have to choose. they can't know it all unless they spend 10 years doing it.

Derren Brown chose to learn mentalism and the exploitation of human cognitive biases

this is a good choice for would be con artirst

the weapon used is the perception deception








the guy is smart. his wrestling champion background shows that he is not afraid to fight for what he wants and lead the field.

same thing that Ryan Deiss and all these gurus of SEO and so on

they are the yang side of internet marketing

But are they delivering the value? Or are their offerings scammy?


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[GMSI7D]

But are they delivering the value? Or are their offerings scammy?


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it depends on your definition of " value " and your goals

value is a point of view

if value for you is just to be informed about internet marketing then you will get value for sure

if value for you is to become the next Bill Gates then i don't know whether you will get value from these guys at all.

so this is hard to tell

most people are probably satisfied when reading feedback on the internet

 

[GMSI7D]

that's why the best businesses are information businesses

because it is hard to estimate the value of informations

everybody can estimate the price of an apple or a car

but what about informations ?

how can you estimate what informations will do for you ?

we can't know. this is hard to tell

so this is the best way to earn a lot of money online

it is all based on HOPE . we estimate the value of informations with the hope of return on investment !!

what a genius idea

 

[Brad S]

But are they delivering the value? Or are their offerings scammy?


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Dan Kennedy who's a direct response copy writer and entrepreneur wrote a very truthful introduction to Brunson's 1st book Dotcom Secrets.

I never read the book only the introduction.

It may answer your question.

With Internet marketers ignore what they SAY and pay attention to what they DO.

Of course you could say the same for everybody else on Earth.

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[Brad S]

that's why the best businesses are information businesses

because it is hard to estimate the value of informations

everybody can estimate the price of an apple or a car

but what about informations ?

how can you estimate what informations will do for you ?

we can't know. this is hard to tell

so this is the best way to earn a lot of money online

it is all based on HOPE . we estimate the value of informations with the hope of return on investment !!

what a genius idea

As Gordon Gekko says:

"The most valuable commodity I know of is information."

Especially when used for INSIDERS trading. [emoji23]



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[GMSI7D]

gurus and cults succeed because of the very nature of society

explained here :


The Lonely Crowd - Wikipedia




most people are other-directed , they follow ( yin ) while gurus are inner directed
they lead ( yang )


for example :


woodstock 1969


other directed yin spending money : the crowd


inner directed yang making money : the guy on stage






the guy can be seen as a " guru " and a cult leader

a guru in the cult of music . this is reframing

what is value here ? only music ?

NO . you could listen to music in your car alone

for the other directed people, value is also the fact to belong to the crowd listening to music : the social event





the result is this pyramid as i showed before

 

[GMSI7D]

in the music example, value is also the abilities of the guy on stage:

---> nobody knows the real extent of his abilities.

he can create music out of thin air like magic !

it inspires respect

like gods do: nobody knows their power


i know this feeling because i am a musician. nobody knows what i will play the next time

it gives you power over people.

 

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[mikey3times]

Here's what @MJ DeMarco wrote back in 2014
(From here.)




You don't see me mention it because I believe your product is more important. Nonetheless, copywriting and the ability to sell is very important, and ranks up there as one of the #1 skills you need to have, and know.

Ultimately, you can have the best product in the world, but if you can't sell it, you will have problems.

Hypothetically imagine for a moment that you had the cure to cancer. Ultimately, you would need to sell the solution. You would need to know how to market. Sell. Convince. Persuade. After the initial momentum builds of sales, the product will do the rest through word of mouth, social media, referrals, and recommendations. Copywriting, marketing, and sales accelerates the momentum. To put it analogous, your product should be the FIRE, your marketing the GAS.

Unfortunately I see copywriting being used to PUSH bad products. Mediocre products. Shitty products. The MARKETING actually becomes the fire, and the product, well, it's just a piece of paper that evaporates once the marketing fire is extinguished. With this type of business model, you're really not dabbling in Fastlanes, but run-of-the-mill internet marketing.

The FASTLANE is not about a PUSH (awesome copy pushing bad products) but a PULL -- creating great products that people want, share, and recommend. And of course, reorder (if you have a product like that.) Marketing/copy should be a tool, not the means to the end.

Most people here want passive income. They mention "printing money" and copywriting as a key to that machine. I'm sorry but I don't want to be "printing money" if my product sucks and I don't believe in it, and yet, I have millions in sales (with a ZERO reorder rate) because my copy is pervasive and borderline deception. That to me isn't Fastlane or entrepreneurship, that just makes you just another money-chasing internet marketer trying to "out push" the other guy down the street.

The IM (internet marketing) industry is RIFE with PUSH marketers. They're fluent in copy, but bankrupt in product. Once they stop advertising and marketing, they cease to exist. Is that printing money? No, you're just a f*cking pusher of commodities.

If you want passive income, I'd be more focused on creating a great product that people want and demand, a product that people will buy not just once because of clever copy, but forever. I mentioned in my INSIDERS call that I've spent less than $3,000 marketing TMF , of which, none of it was effective. (FB rejects all of my ads). TMF has sold over $1,000,000. It will probably add millions to my net worth. Marketing? Copy? No, product. And yes, passive income that has come month after month, year after year.

So to answer your question, YES, copy and sales is important. Is copywriting the end-all-be all for Fastlane? No, believe it or not. If you think it is, you'd probably be better served at the Warrior Forum where those guys sell the same stuff, over and over--- the only thing different between the recycled, rehashed products is the copy that convinced you to buy.

Bottomline, if you have a great product and are also a great salesman, you'll make a fortune AND sleep well. If you have a shitty product and are also a great salesman, well, a big bank account doesn't buy my soul, or my integrity. Maybe your soul can be bribed, mine cannot.




It depends on what step you are in the process of building and growing a company. Knowing sales, copy, and effective persuasive writing will NEVER hurt you.

As an entrepreneur, you will always be selling to these stakeholders:

-- Potential customers
-- Existing customers who aren't happy
-- Potential investors
-- Potential employees
-- Potential suppliers
-- Potential acquirers

At the end of the day, you will be selling your entire entrepreneurial career in some fashion.

So by all means, learn to sell and communicate effectively.

This thread is depressing. I was starting to feel slimy for running a website that sells workbooks and other “info products” to help people advance in their career or to make their job easier.

This quote from MJ helped immensely. I’ve had to issue refunds for a software plugin due to technical issues, but I’ve thankfully never been asked for a refund on my workbooks or toolboxes (info products).

If your product truly offers value, you won’t have to market it the way these gurus do.

Rep+ to Andy for digging this up. Rep+ to MJ for the original post.

 

[jcvlds]

If your product truly offers value, you won’t have to market it the way these gurus do.

Agreed.. but just to reflect on MJ’s point.. copy and advertising won’t be slimy and scammy-like the way guru’s do, but sales is still as important as the product .. and sales is a function of marketing which requires good copy and ads that portray the message of the value buyers will get and must be better/different than a competitors.. you must show the [extra] value that buyers will get so that they choose your product over others.


I find it hard though to think of ways that advertising for say physical products can be made as scammy and slimy as gurus selling “the dream”.. if anyone has seen one please share haha.
I guess it goes back to what @GMSI7D was saying that it is much harder to gauge the value/worth of an info product hitting you really hard at your emotional desires vs the worth of something physical you need to achieve/do a certain outcome/task.
It would be really hard I think to sell shovels using guru methods because you can’t really hit extremely emotional desires


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[mikey3times]

I find it hard though to think of ways that advertising for say physical products can be made as scammy and slimy as gurus selling “the dream”.. if anyone has seen one please share haha.

This was mentioned in the thread that Andy linked to: The art of deceptive advertising: From brown shoe polish on burgers to hairspray for brighter ingredients, how commercials trick us into buying their products | Daily Mail Online

When was the last time that your Big Mac looked like the one on the TV commercials?

 

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[Jedwab]

This is a really interesting discussion. It's one I often try to have with friends, but they tend to check out quite early as they simply cannot fit into their head, that manipulation is everywhere, every day. What I find fascinating is that it is obvious to some of us, yet to others it isn't at all. I do often wonder if people are born to be a certain way, or can any of this be learned. Many people who are gurus, have natural charisma and likeability - and i think a natural inner compass that makes them "know" how to manipulate. Whether that's manipulate with good intentions or bad is irrelevant. Some people may have the full knowledge and understanding of all concepts in this thread, but even if they applied them, they could never "make it", because they are unable to come across in a way that people will put their faith in them, no matter what they do. I am sure there are many people out who actually have amazing skills and can help others, but they are simply unable to package it.

I am a strong believer in perception. I build my whole business on perception and its fascinating to see things play out in front of your eyes , just the way you thought/knew they would. But when I told a couple of very close friends exactly how I do things, one of them said " you scare me". But I would never do anything bad, I just think there are ways of making people do what you want them to do. That is not a bad skill to have. Yet sometimes it makes you feel ashamed as you are orchestrating things. With gurus I think there is no shame, to a degree they are probably like psychopaths, and will stop over dead bodies to get to where they want. Or they really do believe their own hype, which then makes it so much more believable as they talk with such conviction they can probably sell sand in the dessert. Is there something in between? Someone who really offers real value ( yes I know its relative), who has the natural charm and charisma, and really puts themselves out there to help others, but quite happily admits they want to make money in the process? And how do you pick out those that are genuine among the hundreds of 'gurus' popping up on your FB feed, the countless emails and everywhere else?

The answer is, you can't unless you have an internal compass that leads you to the right place. Or you physically go through these courses etc. and actually try them. And like Lex said doing your due diligence is the right and sensible thing to do. But that means looking past the "dream" they are selling. But whatever you decide, what you get out of any of them is what you put in anyway, right?

So my thoughts on gurus...yes they play on human emotions. Yes there is a clear process. Most people will never, ever see through it, because it just does not fit into their head that this is is a "process" they are being put through. Whether that be through shame or just sheer disbelief, who knows. The world is mostly made up of followers. So the question is, even if suddenly all the followers knew the "process" would that change anything at all? I don't think it would. Yes it may open some minds or make things clearer to them. But mostly, those who know, already know - as they can see right through it. Those that can't see right through it , are just not wired that way. Some might become clearer with a helping hand, but internally, they know. Much like you know when you are doing something you shouldn't really be doing, we all have an internal voice....I think?

Which takes me back to our genetic make up. We are made up of that plus everything we have learned and experienced, plus outside influences.

I would love to know what % is genetic make up. Are some people born to be psychopaths for example? So regardless of their upbringing and any outside influences they will be a psychopath? There are psychopaths with privileged upbringings, just as there are psychopaths that came from terrible backgrounds. Same with entrepreneurs. It's just a way of operating - thinking, feeling and being. So when you have this lovely newborn baby, are they really a COMPLETELY blank slate?

We will never know these answers, not really. Ultimately, the online space is always going to be filled with charlatans. Its a demand and supply thing. They can recognize that some people will be duped and use that opportunity and see nothing wrong with it. And lets face it, are these people actually being duped if that person is putting out value? So if they buy a course/ method , and actually follow it 100% and do what they are meant to do, could they be successful? Who knows, I am sure there are some courses that give more value than others. The issue really is that most people do not see things through. They expect shit to happen purely based on the fact hey bought something. The triggers for buying something I think are very different based on where you are in life at the time - for some it will be the fear of missing out, for some the need to belong, for some putting the guru on a pedestal like a god, and for some - the see clearly what is on offer and know upfront what they want to get out of it. Its what resonates with you at the time.

All of this can be pulled apart in a million different ways - humans are fascinating creatures. I think to certain degree if you are in the online space you need to "play the game". And most do. Some don't and they choose to be themselves, unapologetic for having what would be unpopular opinion, and choosing to be themselves and being brave to put that out there. And I felt that when I read "Unscripted " - it was like someone getting in my head and putting words on paper. Like talking to an old friend that got it. And that resonated with me - because it came to me at the right time, in the right place in my life. And I felt that joining this forum will teach me something. But, having had made at least another 15 people around me read the book ( coz I'm persuasive like that), only 1 person actually got it. I don't view MJ as a guru, because I don't believe in gurus. But I really appreciate this forum, because it is mostly filled with people that make sense to me, and I think have more knowledge & experience than me. I was happy to pay for the INSIDERS fee because I decided it was worth it to me, and it wasn't about belonging or some yearning to be part of a bigger crowd, it just FELT like this part of the forum was full of people that cut through bullshit and see things differently. This may be true , or it may not be, but that was my perception.
Now 14 of my friends either didn't finish the book completely, never started it or having read it simply decided it was too "out there", or haven't understood it and are under the impression that its some big con. Maybe its just didn't appeal to them because most people don't question stuff. Which is fine - I say live and let live.

I honestly think that we are just all wired differently. I had a convo with some friends a couple of nights ago about spontaneous remission, and the concept of being able to use your subconscious to heal oneself or others, using powers of the mind etc.

I am an open person and will consider all possibilities, and enjoy discussions like that. I'm not saying I necessarily believe that, I just think you cant discount something completely without spending some time considering it or researching it. There are obviously exceptions to this statement.

Wayne Dyer ( is he a guru? i dont know but I guess so) came up in that convo, as I have been studying his work among many others and my friend said this -

" Oh he is one of those gurus that rip people off". So I inquired as to why he thinks so. He said that his girlfriend in the past was ripped off by loads of gurus and he was one of them. So I prodded some more and essentially by the time I got to the bottom of things, it turned out that actually she used to quote him and read his books.

But my friend didn't know if she bought anything else from him, he just heard that name, and because her ultimate demise ( aka financial ruin due to bad debt from signing up with everything and everyone) was due to her being gullible, he put that name mentally in his "conman" box. It wasn't an educated decision, it was simply made on one person having a bad experience due to making her own bad decisions. And just because she mentioned a few names in the process, my friend decided they are all charlatans. When it all got broken down, he actually had no proof or reason to believe it, he simply did. And that is majority of people - they can hear 2 or 3 wrong pieces of information and in their mind they become fact. There is no rhyme or reason to it because of the different wiring people have. Some question stuff and some don't. Yes their upbringing, learned fears and beliefs and social influences will have SOME influence on how they operate. Personally i would like to know what % of it is wiring ( genetics) and what isn't.

But it does not change the fact that this is just the way it is. And being able to see through it daily ( advertising etc) is great, as long as it doesn't make you become a complete cynic, suspicious of everything and everyone. And it can be tiring, overthinking stuff. I am guilty of that and literally sometimes wish for an empty brain. Being able to think of NOTHING. But I am working on that.

Gurus come hidden in many different ways, and opening peoples eyes to them , although noble , its a massive endeavor. They will never be stopped though. The way the world is going, sadly I think it will only get worse. The best we can do is to educate our children to be themselves. Do what feels right to them, and follow their internal compass ( unless you know they are a born psychopath). To try and make educated decisions, based on solid research , but also what feels right. Not be afraid to stand alone, and F*ck following the crowds. And not be frustrated when they decide to take their own route, one that may be different to what we desire and see as best for them. I detest social media, but to a degree its an amazing tool for building businesses. So educate your kids to use it, just use it the right way. There are many entrepreneurs or people that are put on pedestals that come from a good place, like Richard Branson for example. Nothing wrong with looking up to them.

Then there are the ones who don't give a shit about humanity, and even if they actually make that clear they will still have millions of followers. Because mostly, its easier for people to a follower than to stand on their own. And some really don't care about that - they will pay money to gurus, just to say they have "done" this course or been part of that coveted crowd. I know women who are course junkies, having done every Amy Porterfield, Mary Forleo and a bunch of others courses. They are still in the same place as to where they started. They are poorer, but they are still happy as they feel a part of something exciting and the community aspect often matters to them more than the course contents. They will all get to a point when they realise that unless they actually take some action, nothing will happen, but in the meantime the feeling of belonging is enough. Maybe they are not ready to stand on their own. Does that make Amy or Marie charlatans? Or simply smart cookies who see a demand/supply and are simply playing the game? Putting out content which when applied would work in the right hands, but because they know that people who are like them, can see right through it and probably wont buy the course as they can work it out themselves? And the ones that do, 99.99% will not follow it through? One would ask , why shouldn't they put it out if people choose to buy and there is demand? Because they are playing on the fact that they know there are loads of people out there that buy their courses, thinking they will somehow become them, fully knowing that will never happen, apart maybe to a select few ( and they still wont be THEM obvs)? And those select few again are just a small % of the population that can sort of see through but not quite, and they just need a nudge to make them see how its done?

Because that would be like saying all advertising is bad - just because you buy a cookbook, doesn't mean you can cook the meal to look like exactly the attached picture. So you could say that is false advertising. But you could also say that the person who wrote the cookbook cannot be held accountable for the fact that people work /are wired differently , and some will cook it perfectly whilst some will make it look like something your dog produced from their rear end. If everyone thought like that nothing would exist as everything would be seen as a con. How far can this be taken really? Bottom line is there are over 7 billion people in this world, and there will always be something out there that appeals to someone. Hence niches work, they are just little mass followings.

Yes some gurus abuse that as they are not clear as to what is actually involved in their programs. I think a lot of people stumble when they realize the sheer volume of work needed to get to a certain place, how much tech they will need to embrace and how many man hours go into success and the learning curves involved - both to do with business but also with yourself, as a person. They buy end the result. And no guru will sit there and give a breakdown of the process as this would be enough to put most people off. Yes they say " you will have to do the work" but it is almost a perfunctory disclaimer, covered up in promises or rags to riches. The people that don't see that...can you REALLY change their mind? Maybe, a small % after reading Lex's post will "see the light".

But what confuses is me is those that need this info put in front them, didn't already see it before reading the post?

By the way I think its a great post - it should go out on a blog somewhere and be made viral! I'm sure many people would read it and have their eyes opened. But do you know what would happen as a result? Especially if the author of the post was known? They would instantly get a guru style following. Because that is human nature.
Especially if the "bad" gurus were named - because masses of people that felt they were duped by the mentioned names would all congregate together to tell each other their stories of misfortune...and because naturally in their mind they would feel an affinity with the person that discredits someone they feel has duped them , and therefore that person is now fighting their corner and is their new "go to".

Recently all I have seen on FB is a wave of "anti-gurus" like the Fletcher method. It all works because there will always be people that feel they were wronged by others and rather than accept responsibility and push their ego aside, they would rather get a stroke saying "There, there poor thing, you was conned, its not your fault , you have been manipulated and we will look after you and protect you from those big bad wolves out there".

10 years ago I would have said them " go get a life" and its your own fault you fall for that bullshit. As you get older you realise that actually there is a lot more to it and that some humans are more pliable, gullible , susceptible, vulnerable and impressionable than others. It could be because that are in a certain place in their life ( like mid life crisis for example) , or it could be is that is just the way they are wired, or it could be their learned belief system. Whatever it is , we will NEVER all be the same and it would take masses of people to make a massive change. When it comes to this subject it won't happen, because we are dwelling too deep into peoples brains and the subject is just to complex. Advertising/ marketing will always remain the same, the methods, formats and delivery may change with time - but as soon as people start wising up something else will come out. People will never stop having emotions...and when they do, one needs to ask how human are they?

@SinisterLex I just wanted to say thank you for your post, as I think the discussion that followed is brilliant. I have been lurking for a while and reading stuff, and your post actually made me write something. Perhaps I will make time for an Intro post soon.

 

[GMSI7D]

if you guys want to know how you fit in society , here is the answer






researcher Laura Knight Jadczyk thinks that most people have access to only 2 % of the informations that Masterminds gathered

98 % of the informations to manage energy ( you) is occult knowledge

i don't believe you can understand what it means

it is beyond your understanding

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I don't have any stake in the question of whether Musk is or isn't a con man

Neither do I however in our world, if anyone claims anything not with the SCRIPTED theology, whether it be in the realm of money, finance, business, culture, they will be labeled something. And a con is one of the popular labels.

Then there are the ones who don't give a sh*t about humanity, and even if they actually make that clear they will still have millions of followers. Because mostly, its easier for people to a follower than to stand on their own.

Holy long post Batman, but many good points! I like this one: There will also be a built in demand for this stuff because of easification. It's easier to follow, than to lead, research, and critically think.

 

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[G-Man]

a compliance test followed by small commitments leading to bigger commitments and even the assumption of an alternative identity.

If anyone here hasn't read Cialdini's book, his discussion of this using the example of Korean War POWs is one of the most enlightening things I've read anywhere. The below article will give you an idea, but buy the book, and after that, Win Bigly by Scott Adams is pretty good.

Commitment and Consistency

 

[p0stscript]

Neither do I however in our world, if anyone claims anything not with the SCRIPTED theology, whether it be in the realm of money, finance, business, culture, they will be labeled something. And a con is one of the popular labels.

Another label is lucky which implies the outcome wasn't caused by any form of action or commitment by the person, just a random event, it just happened to them.