What is the best sales advice you've learned and can impart?

[BizyDad]

It's like talking to a brick wall. This is my last chance of trying to break through to you.

There are so many limiting beliefs in your responses. And you're talking to me like I have no idea about your business.

Let's clear that up.

I am currently generating leads for a mortgage company. I don't want to hear how hard it is. The fact that it is hard makes it an opportunity I am interested in. Weaklings run from hard.

I'm also talking to my client about possibly buying into her small brokerage.

So long story short, I'm giving you the advice that I myself am following. I want to be in this space long term. And I have figured out a way to get paid while minimizing my temporal and financial risk.

Why would YOU choose me to handle your several hundred thousand dollar home loan that I've never done before when you can talk to somebody who has?

Can you do the job? You act like every new mortgage person is unable to close a loan. Boo hoo.

I'm a former banker. I started selling mortgages and home equities lines of credit my first freaking month in the business. I was basically fresh out of college.

So every excuse you have made, I'm living proof that it doesn't matter.

If you really want to make it running your own business, you need to start coming up with answers to questions like these.

Instead, you're letting this question stop you from becoming rich.

I don't think that's the answer, but thanks anyway.

That's cool, I don't need your permission to go make money. Why don't you check back with me in a couple of years, and let's see who made more in this industry?

That said, the big boys aren't using this model for the same reasons I mentioned earlier; too many factors that you cannot control.

You are believing what they are telling you. You're ignoring what I'm telling you. Either way, this is a limiting belief in you're letting it block you.

Imagine what you could do if you had control of those factors.

If they can't, why would I be the exception?

See. If you could actually answer this question, you would probably be on to something big.

Why do you let questions stop you? Let your questions guide you.

as long as the relationship is disclosed to the buyer and the share isn't based on the transaction's success.

If the transaction doesn't succeed, then there is no buyer to disclose to. So what you are describing sounds more like lead generation, meaning you get paid on the number of leads you generate, not performance-based revenue sharing. Maybe I misunderstood how you were using the terms.

I tried to build this out so there's as little extra work for the LO as possible

This is either total BS, or you don't realize how you failed to deliver this.

that can get there with legwork, which is something most loan officers don't want to do.

And this sentence is all the proof I need that the above is BS.

Because you think that after you deliver the lead, there's still a lot of work to do. So you didn't make this with as little work as possible.

And I think it's kind of ironic that you are talking bad about loan officers in this case, but you aren't willing to do this work yourself.

Here's another funny thing.

You seemingly have uncovered an issue in the marketplace. A problem that you can solve.

Instead of trying to solve it, you're saying it is the loan officer's job to solve it.

And how is a loan officer supposed to solve it?

lot of LOs view it as "just another CRM"

That's right. With a good CRM.

Unfortunately, yours is just another CRM. It's not a good CRM that solves the problem...

So far that hasn't worked out, obviously, but I did all those things to make as "idiot proof" as I could.

I wonder why it hasn't worked out.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that you are not delivering what the market wants.

What the market wants is something that doesn't exist,

Well then how am I doing it? Lololololol.

Limiting belief.

People who got into the industry in the last 20 years think this is supposed to be easy.

I'm lucky enough to remember mortgages when they were in the teens. I know that people were getting rich then, and I know they're getting rich now.

The question is how?

but with less upside

I'm sorry, what is your current upside? Remind me again?

You won't build a mortgage brokerage, but you think you can actually build a lead generation engine for mortgage brokerages? You want to be like one of the big boys in the lead generation business?

You're talking about spending several years and thousands of dollars training myself to operate in a bad housing market with no portfolio

So I am right. You really are looking for a get rich quick fix.

I think it's hilarious that you don't realize that you're going to have to spend years and thousands of dollars training yourself to operate in the field you are currently working in. At least you have some experience in mortgages...

<sarcasm>How do you expect to become one of the big boys in the lead generation business for mortgages when there's all this bad stuff going on in the mortgage industry? </sarcasm>

I don't think you see the discrepancy here. You think there's a lot of opportunity in one industry that supports the industry where there isn't a lot of opportunity? Okay...

You came on here asking for us to teach you how to sell.

But you don't actually believe in the thing you're selling.

Seriously, stop spending the money. You aren't actually learning anything. You aren't going to be able to make this work with your current mindset and worldview.

I never said I was experienced and I never said I was good. I'd spent some time working at a lender and real estate group so I understand the loan process.

I never said you said those things.

My entire point is that you lack the experience to make this opportunity work. But if you can make leads happen, if you can nurture them, if you can automate that process and find people to work for you, you could probably make somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 million over the course of the next 10 years.

But you don't want to spend years. Really? What's your time frame for success? Months?

And you're worried about spending thousands. Okay. You probably think you'll get rich using other people's money, huh?

And when someone comes along and tells you how to make it work, you call it impossible.

Which is why you're going to pivot away from this opportunity.

This will be only your what, third pivot in life? Fourth pivot in life?

At what point in your life do you actually decide that you're going to commit and see this thing through?

I hope you figure out what value it is that you want to bring to the world, and I hope you figure it out soon. I hope you find something to dedicate your life to. Because that's when things start getting fun.

Your solution is to get licensed and work in the field that I'm trying to service, with no experience or portfolio, in a bad job market and bad housing market, and build a proof of concept to service myself after spending a couple years doing that.

I don't think that's the answer, but thanks anyway.

You're so focused on the phrase proof of concept, you keep missing the part where I said this is the easiest way for you to make money. Like literally make a living. Which is the thing you're struggling with...

Seriously though, let's compare notes in 2-3 years. Maybe then you'll be ready to learn the industry, and maybe then I'll be in a position to hire you to close deals.

But I'm going to stop wasting my breath here. You've started a lot of threads, you've taken a single course, and you're not really going anywhere because you're just chasing money.

You haven't figured out how to solve problems and provide value that people will pay for. And I hope somebody else in this thread gets value from other words we spent writing to you today.

 

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[Andy Black]

I would say that relatively few people WANT Google Ads. Some already do Google Ads and it’s working decently, so they don’t really want it, others have tried it and got poor results so they don’t trust it can help.

How many companies are there who actually want someone to help with Google Ads and haven’t yet found that someone? Not that many.

Many want leads, but don’t believe Google Ads works. Or they think it’s too expensive.

True. Only a small portion of businesses already running Google Ads are in the market for someone new to manage their campaigns. And a miniscule portion of those know about me. But it's enough since so many businesses use Google Ads.

 

[BPH1994]

You are a veteran with decades of experience and results behind you.

I won't bother working for free or covering the downside risk for my clients if I have a pipeline of paying customers and referrals.

My opinion is more towards people with no customer base and little experience while expecting their clients to take the leap of faith.

Sales and hesitation is all about not being willing to take the risk and leap of faith. Once you remove that you grow.

If the market is screaming at me they want paid referrals, not leads I will change, pivot, and rebuild the system.

I have a friend's brother who is a realtor. He splits 30 percent of his commission for closed deals on rental with his introducers. Why not ads? I asked him. He says the ad cost doesn't justify it because the rental commission is not high—half monthly rental for a one-year contract. And you spend time and money bringing potential tenants driving them around showing flats to them.

There is a reason why something works in one industry and not the other. The OP needs to dive into the number. If I want to serve loan officers, I know their numbers very well. What's their commission on a 300k outstanding loan of 4 percent interest over 20 years? What's the acquisition cost for referral? How easy is it to find a referral with an introducer and what's the referral fee? Do they do ads? Why or why not?

If you know the numbers inside out you will know if your pitch makes sense or not.

The loan officers/brokers in my country just spam the realtor for leads. This is because the realtor's deal commission is high enough to justify the ad expenditure. They can simply work with the realtors to get a guaranteed deal. Is it the same in OP's country? I don't know.

A lot of loan officers are like that, my friends included; they would rather nurture their referral base and get trickle-down leads without having to spend on advertising. I don't think that's my target audience...I think the type of loan officer that would value this is either A. somebody who is newer and needs to generate leads because they don't have a referral base, or B. somebody who sees the value in scaling because their ROI on a deal is worth multiple times their monthly expediture.

This is the guy who verbally confirmed but hasn't financially committed for about a month now, and I can't keep holding onto the hope that he will. But he makes something like $15,000 per deal because he's able to act as both the realtor and loan officer in his transactions. Because of this, he pays advertising agencies $4,500 per month in adspend alone. He saw value in my service because he wants to expand to Google ads and see if running his own Facebook ads through my platform would be easier and more affordable than what he's doing now.

I think THAT is my ideal client. But I say "think" because he is NOT a client yet, and considering how much tire-kicking has taken place, I have my doubts that he'll take the leap.

You were doomed from the start, and you didn't even realize it. It's a classic mistake made by inexperienced entrepreneurs who think they have it all figured out after reading a few books.

Let me rephrase your situation to make it hit home, and then we'll work on how to do it better and succeed next time.

Here's how I interpret your situation:

1. Aha! I think this is what people want because I've had some exposure to real estate and mortgage brokers.
2. Hmm... how do I actually do this?
3. Oh, I've got it - there's this service and that 2nd service that I can buy on a monthly basis and then combine them into my own SaaS.
4. Let's go for it, what could go wrong? I mean, it's cheaper than an agency and easier than doing it all myself...
5. Shit... no one buys this, I'm bleeding cash. WTF!!!! I must suck at sales because I know it's a useful product since I said so. The market is stupid, I suck at sales. Help me sell ice over the internet, people, help... but make sure it's useful help!
6. Classic: Finding a hammer and then searching for nails to justify its existence.

To spell it out, in case it's still not sinking in... people are clicking on your ads because they're curious, not because they're buyers.

Worse yet, the people who can't afford an agency and are looking for a cheaper solution (your "best" albeit non-existent customer) who also can't do it on their own... are the least likely to have money to pay. It's so bad that I can't believe you're still even contemplating pushing this string.

I definitely don't think I have it figured out, but I read all about "what if you already know enough" and "take action" and stuff like that and thought I'd learn by doing.

Having worked the same niche in the SMMA model running ads for clients I DID get them leads. I believe on an adspend of $30 per day in California for purchase loans I was able to get my client at least 1 lead per day over the course of the month. But he only wanted to pay AFTER closing, which he didn't do, how much that speaks for my lead quality vs his sales process and follow up, I don't know.

So I thought a solution would be something much less expensive, that does more than JUST run ads, that they can have full oversight over, and can do the tedious follow-up for them. I seem to be wrong.

Mortgage leads that are two years old - how good are they? Does anyone really want to nurture a "customer" who hasn't done any business with you for two years and waste all this time just to make a buck later? It seems to me you're not applying the Pareto Principle (80/20 rule) correctly. You're tuning for the 80% of worst customers and then trying to sell them to bad clients.

Seriously, can't you see how you've doomed yourself by design?

Statistically something

like 80% of sales require 5 follow ups to more. I understand they might not be the best clients at that point, but I thought it would be attractive to not have to do the monotonous stuff like that, and instead have it run on autopilot.

But I do see your point.

I have a friend who launched a SaaS for real estate reporting. He partnered with a major, expensive software provider. With almost 20 years in the industry, he knew it inside out. Initially, he built the product for his employer. Realizing its potential, he quit and relaunched it independently. He got it up and running again within six months.

What was his first move? He secured 10 clients at breakeven prices, offering them an amazing deal. He contractually guaranteed those prices for five years. Only then did he invest in the software and build it out further. Clients were lined up, ready to start paying once the product was available!

Fast forward four years, and he's grown his business tenfold. Most clients in the REIT reporting space are signing up and paying three times what the first 10 paid. He now employs almost 20 staff, all without spending a dime on marketing.

The lesson here is clear: listen to the market! If no one is buying, you've got a problem.

I have a question about this point regarding your friend, because this is something I've read in Noah Kagan's book too that I can't really wrap my head around...how do you sell something that doesn't exist yet?

Your friend sold a software that he knew inside and out due to having 20 years of experience with it, so he has a MUCH better grasp on what's possible with it. I don't know how I'd sell a solution BEFORE I build it and know it can do the things that it needs to.

The most misguided part of your post so far. I know brokers who make seven figures.

Years ago, I met Josh Altman from 'Millionaire Listing.' We were both staying at the Four Seasons on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills. He was there for a conference, and we coincidentally crossed paths. Despite not knowing him, I approached him with my usual lack of shame (as my wife often points out). We ended up chatting.

Josh shared that he and his brother started in the mortgage brokerage industry. They targeted individuals who drove Rolls Royces and wore Rolex watches by giving kickbacks to luxury car and watch dealers. They made a fortune, even buying mansions. However, the 2008 financial crisis hit, and they went bankrupt.

Undeterred, Josh pivoted and became a luxury realtor. He even starred on a TV show to boost his business. That's what being in the top 1% looks like: entrepreneurs who see opportunities and adapt accordingly.

Your post about not wanting to work for a brokerage, while failing to imagine a need that others might have, is your biggest issue. You look for easy solutions rather than embracing the hard work and challenges that come with entrepreneurship. It's misguided to think that the money is in easy, scalable ventures. The real money is made by solving the hard problems and making them easier. Think differently and answer differently.

I know plenty of brokers who make seven figures too, but all they do is work. My manager when I was working at the lender used to tell stories about how the last time they got snowed in during the holidays he still went into the office with a sleeping bag a hot plate and worked through the storm.

Commendable work ethic? Absolutely. But something that you can leverage while stepping away from the way MJ mentions? Absolutely not.

Beyond that, I actually lasted as long as I did because I failed my initial licensing exam when it came time for our class to take it. Myself and this one other guy were kept on board because we were very well-liked and did well in every other aspect of the training. We stayed on as "concierge" to learn the business and take the test again at a future point.

1/3 of our class who passed the test were laid off in the first few months afterwards - even my roommate. He had been performing above average in terms of closes, but was falling short in some other quota. This trend continued and by the time I retook and passed the test at the later part of my first year, there were only about 3 of us left.

I realize the value of having a deep understanding of the industry you're working in. I don't have that, but I believed I "knew enough" to get started. And I don't think the solution is to fish for a position in both one of the worst job markets in recent history, and one of the worst housing markets. The clock is ticking and the bills are piling, and while I'm not looking for "get rich quick", I'm really desperate to find SOME traction to know I'm doing things right for once...

Let's simplify things. Start from the beginning: learn to crawl, then walk, and only then attempt to run. Right now, you're struggling to crawl, yet you're asking for help with running. Here's a step-by-step guide to help you reprogram your mind and change your perspective:

1. Read MJ's books, particularly 'Unscripted .' This book is likely the most relevant to your current situation.
2. Write down the lessons you learn from the book(s), including any surprising facts. Remember, reading should lead to writing! No more relying on audiobooks; put in the effort. Read to write.
3. Get a job. Become an intrapreneur and think like a business owner. This will help reprogram your mind to think differently than you currently do.
4. Save some money from your job.
5. Start a side hustle with the goal of making $100 in a month. This will further reprogram your mind to think differently than it does now.

I'll read it, so far I've only read Fastlane from him. I listen to the audiobook and read at the same time to try and internalize it so I'm not just speeding through.

I do have a job, and I've unfortunately had the same one for about 4 years now, I just don't have a job in the field I'm trying to service.

While you're already on this forum, aim to improve your User Power ratio, which is currently at a dismal 18%. Although this metric may seem unimportant on the surface, it does indicate that you're not adding much value to the community. Just like you aren't adding value in the real world and why your "business" isn't a business.

My main point to you is this: you need to reprogram your brain. Your current mindset is a classic example of money chasing entrepreneur, but you're not solving real problems.

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I understand the parallel between offering value on here and in the real world, but that number is so low because I don't think I have much to offer to you guys.

I mean look at the advice you all have given vs the situation I'm describing myself in. Would you listen to me? I wouldn't even provide advice because I don't think I'm in a position to - I'm not successful when it comes to business, so I think the only thing somebody could learn from me at this point is what NOT to do.

 

[BPH1994]

I am in insurance and mutual funds sales. So I am probably most qualified to answer besides you talking to a mortgage loan broker. My LinkedIn profile gets pitched lead generation services all day.

The reason why sales people prefer paid referral because it’s guaranteed profit. Some top producers in my country gave 100 percent commission as referral fee. This means they spend time working for free to advise and close the deal provided you give them the sale. Because they see the LTV of a customer as a person on average buys seven life insurance in his or her life time.

The mortgage brokers here in my country work with realtors. I don’t know how much they split the commission as a “market norm” but you get the gist.

If they have access to paid referrals why would they even bother buying leads or pay for lead generation service?

You'd be correct, but a lot of loan officers understand the value of reaching more new customers so they'll have a larger referral base. It's just the way they prefer to do it that seems to vary...

In the post I just replied I mentioned the guy who "verbally committed" to my service is looking to do so because he makes so much per deal that he's willing to spend a considerable amount on lead generation because the ROI is so massive on the backend that he wants to scale.

On the contrary, I remember a demo call with a guy who rejected my services when it was as an SMMA model because he "can buy a list of 300 names for $100" and reasoned that as long as he can close at least 1 person on there, he makes that money back several times over - but he clearly doesn't value his time.

And then we have people like my friends from my time at the lender, who only want to spend money on events for their referral base in the hopes that it never shrivels up.

This is why I'm not sure if I'm just targeting the wrong people, or if my service and approach to this problem is just doomed on a fundamental level.

In my opinion getting a job is a cop out. Tell the guy how to be an entrepreneur not how to get a job lol.

There are big hittin gangstas making the dough by themselves who never held a job before. I’m one of them. And I’m proud of it too.

Not that you can’t make lots of money as an intrapreneur, imo it’s actually the easier path. But… it’s not entrepreneurship.

Dude should just get a skill that he likes, design, programming, copywriting, anything that floats his boat… and start selling himself like a slave on Upwork. Aim not for money, but to get as good as he can at his skill and take on more challenging projects and perform. That’s it. Anything more is too complicated for him at this stage. Dude, if you’re listening, forget about solving problems and that bullshit — you need a mixture of skills to do that, and you don’t have any atm.

And no job bullshit lol. Earn your own dough.

Recently my company hired a copywriter. Dude f*cked up big time. It was clear that he was in over his head. I laughed at him and told him I’ll take the reputation hit to run his copy so that I can teach him a lesson. Unfortunately, at the end he apologized and said his performance was super disappointing and he’s sorry for wasting my time… instead he’ll go back to, you guessed it, take some more courses!!

Wtf — the issue isn’t courses or education, it’s that he REFUSES TO THINK. No amount of courses, job experience, bla bla will help you if you refuse to think. He read Cashvertising and boy now thinks he’s gonna make dat cash register ring for ya like there’s no tomorrow…

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And because we were talking about ethics… hardly anyone in business is ethical. Maybe I can count the ethical people on one hand. But most people have no shame. Look at the last line — he’s basically manipulating me to keep the money.

I know that, but guess what, I’ll let the loser keep a few hundread bucks because my shame is worth more to me, and he definitely needs it if he’s to make something of himself.

This post resonated with me.

I don't not want a job because I don't want to do the hard work to learn an industry. I don't want one because I'm 30, poor, and in the same position working the same job to get by after multiple business failures - I don't feel like I have time to keep being this poor, life is getting more expensive.

The section in bold is what makes me wonder if I'm going wrong because of what I'm doing; I'm trying to solve a problem for an industry because I had SOME experience in it, believe it can be leveraged in a way where I don't need to be constantly present in the business for it to function, and can operate anywhere that I have an internet connection without the need for brick-and-mortar or numerous employees - hence mortgage niche.

But I'm starting to think I'm trying too hard to make this work because people tell me not to niche hop, or to commit to one thing, etc...as opposed to just doing the things I'm really good at and finding people who will pay me to do those things.

Do you think that's a sensible direction to go, or do you think I'm on the right track with this, at least fundamentally (since obviously not operationally)?

Also @Andy Black I see your replies and the conversation you and @Black_Dragon43 are having, but I will be watching those calls that were linked at the early part of the post, regarding your sales training.

 

[BPH1994]

Can you do the job? You act like every new mortgage person is unable to close a loan. Boo hoo.

I'm a former banker. I started selling mortgages and home equities lines of credit my first freaking month in the business. I was basically fresh out of college.

So every excuse you have made, I'm living proof that it doesn't matter.

If you really want to make it running your own business, you need to start coming up with answers to questions like these.

Instead, you're letting this question stop you from becoming rich.

What if I can? Nobody knows because they're not willing to give it a try.

That's part of the reason I made this thread; how do you sell something you've never done, with no track record of success, to somebody who needs you to solve a problem, when they can go elsewhere and speak to people who can?

I'm asking this as a serious question because it applies to both working at a job as a mortgage broker to learn the business, and as a SAAS service that was created to solve a problem.

You are believing what they are telling you. You're ignoring what I'm telling you. Either way, this is a limiting belief in you're letting it block you.

Imagine what you could do if you had control of those factors.

See. If you could actually answer this question, you would probably be on to something big.

Why do you let questions stop you? Let your questions guide you.

But how can you? You can lead a horse to water but you can't force them to drink...you can provide a qualified lead to a loan officer but you can't close for them - because if you could, you wouldn't need them.

Call it self-limiting, but if I'm doing such a bad job at this that I can't even emulate what is working, what makes you think I can innovate something better?

This is either total BS, or you don't realize how you failed to deliver this.

And this sentence is all the proof I need that the above is BS.

Because you think that after you deliver the lead, there's still a lot of work to do. So you didn't make this with as little work as possible.

And I think it's kind of ironic that you are talking bad about loan officers in this case, but you aren't willing to do this work yourself.

Here's another funny thing.

You seemingly have uncovered an issue in the marketplace. A problem that you can solve.

Instead of trying to solve it, you're saying it is the loan officer's job to solve it.

And how is a loan officer supposed to solve it?

I made it to automate as much of the organic lead generation and nurturing as I could for the loan officer, but they still have to do their job; pull credit, have the buyer fill out a 1003, etc.

The best I could do is something like a call center where I could employ people to call the leads and book them onto

the calendar for the loan officer, but that just removes 1 step and adds a lot of extra costs.

You say I've seemingly uncovered a problem, but if there were a good solution, the loan officer would no longer be necessary.

That's right. With a good CRM.

Unfortunately, yours is just another CRM. It's not a good CRM that solves the problem...

I wonder why it hasn't worked out.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that you are not delivering what the market wants.

Well then how am I doing it? Lololololol.

Limiting belief.

People who got into the industry in the last 20 years think this is supposed to be easy.

I'm lucky enough to remember mortgages when they were in the teens. I know that people were getting rich then, and I know they're getting rich now.

The question is how?

We don't know whether it's a good CRM that solves a problem because nobody's trying it. It could be the best thing since sliced bread, but if it's getting that label without any further investigation, then there's a problem - and it's likely a problem with how I'm presenting it.

You say that you're doing mortgage lead generation right now, so you tell me; what am I not delivering that the market wants? How are you doing it?

Everybody wants more deals, and to get more deals they need more appointments with qualified leads or referrals, and to get those qualified leads and referrals they need to get leads in general. So what am I missing? Or is it execution?

I'm sorry, what is your current upside? Remind me again?

You won't build a mortgage brokerage, but you think you can actually build a lead generation engine for mortgage brokerages? You want to be like one of the big boys in the lead generation business?

I don't need to be one of the big boys. The big boys are managing millions in adspend and charging by the country in which they run them. I'm just looking to build a tool that allows loan officers to do this themselves, among other things, at a fraction of the price and without me needing to micromanage the technicalities of the business so I can focus on selling and improving the service.

So I am right. You really are looking for a get rich quick fix.

I think it's hilarious that you don't realize that you're going to have to spend years and thousands of dollars training yourself to operate in the field you are currently working in. At least you have some experience in mortgages...

<sarcasm>How do you expect to become one of the big boys in the lead generation business for mortgages when there's all this bad stuff going on in the mortgage industry? </sarcasm>

I don't think you see the discrepancy here. You think there's a lot of opportunity in one industry that supports the industry where there isn't a lot of opportunity? Okay...

You came on here asking for us to teach you how to sell.

But you don't actually believe in the thing you're selling.

Seriously, stop spending the money. You aren't actually learning anything. You aren't going to be able to make this work with your current mindset and worldview.

I would hardly call this endeavor a "get rich quick" fix. I've been on this forum only about 2 months, but I've been trying to figure out how to make this niche work since October. In that time I've spent a lot of time and money trying to (unsuccessfully) make this work - adjusting my offer, adjusting my advertising, offering a performance model, changing the model entirely from SMMA to a SAAS tool, believing price to be the recurring issue, etc.

If I were here to get rich quick off of this I'd have given up a long time ago. I'm not expecting hundreds of thousands of dollars to suddenly fall into my lap - I'm just looking for INCOME - something to show me that what I'm doing is "correct" and that there is potential, which I believe there is.

The mortgage industry is massive, people will always need homes, the interest rates are sky high but slowly falling, and there are agencies making this work - like yours. I just don't know where I'm going wrong with my approach to this.

This tool could be absolutely amazing, but nobody knows because nobody's willing to try it.

Is it because of price?

Is it because of perceived difficulty?

Is it because I'm talking to the wrong type of client?

Do I just really suck at this?

I don't know, and that's what I'm here to try and figure out.

I never said you said those things.

My entire point is that you lack the experience to make this opportunity work. But if you can make leads happen, if you can nurture them, if you can automate that process and find people to work for you, you could probably make somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 million over the course of the next 10 years.

But you don't want to spend years. Really? What's your time frame for success? Months?

And you're worried about spending thousands. Okay. You probably think you'll get rich using other people's money, huh?

And when someone comes along and tells you how to make it work, you call it impossible.

Which is why you're going to pivot away from this opportunity.

This will be only your what, third pivot in life? Fourth pivot in life?

At what point in your life do you actually decide that you're going to commit and see this thing through?

I hope you figure out what value it is that you want to bring to the world, and I hope you figure it out soon. I hope you find something to dedicate your life to. Because that's when things start getting fun.

Maybe by saying I had worked in the industry, I implied that I was good.

The section I highlighted in bold, what if I can do that right now? What if this tool does exactly that? You're in the industry making it work, what's the reason somebody WOULDN'T want something like that? That's the whole basis for why I'm asking if I've got a sales problem or a more fundamental problem.

To clarify, I'm not opposed to spending time and money making this work. But I need some verification that I'm on the right track - some traction, a client, income, anything to signal "hey, this has potential", because right now I just have no's, maybes that were really no's, and yes's that become no's.

Hormozi relates it to fitness; when you guarantee a fitness result, like a 6-pack, they're not fat and obese up until the end when they suddenly get it - they see results along the way, "small wins" and are reinforced they're on the right track.

That's what I need, reinforcement I'm on the right track. And readjustment if I'm not. Because I don't know at what point I'm trying too hard to make something work that's already doomed to fail.

Seriously though, let's compare notes in 2-3 years. Maybe then you'll be ready to learn the industry, and maybe then I'll be in a position to hire you to close deals.

But I'm going to stop wasting my breath here. You've started a lot of threads, you've taken a single course, and you're not really going anywhere because you're just chasing money.

You haven't figured out how to solve problems and provide value that people will pay for. And I hope somebody else in this thread gets value from other words we spent writing to you today.

I appreciated your advice up until this point. I'm already down, why kick? You don't know my journey.

Like I said earlier, I've only been on this forum for 2 months, but have been at this process much longer, I've only started 4 threads (this being the fourth), and I promise you I've taken way more than a single course, not counting books on the matter.

I don't know why you felt the need the end an otherwise insightful post like this, but thanks anyway.

So you have two choices:

1. Create what doesn’t exist

Or

2. Promise what doesn’t exist, and give them what exists

(2) will get you some clients, but you will eventually lose them, so it’s not a long term play. A relationship cannot continue if one of the parties doesn’t get what it wants.

Nevertheless, some problems are honestly HARD, and no one has solutions to yet. Why don’t you interview some loan officers and find how those who do get external leads do it, and what the process is like? You can tell them you’re a student or some BS and you have a uni project, some will buy it and help you out.

With one company I’ve invested in, to recover money for Amazon sellers, I wanted to find what the big boys were doing to bring in the dough. So I called the top 5 up, here was my script:

“Hey, put me through to {CEO’s name} please.”

They usually asked “Who is this?” So I simply replied “This is John, {CEO’s name} knows” (just imagine, everyone knows a John LOL — you need to be smart. Read some books in Social Engineering and use your brain)

Sometimes they spoke to, let’s call him, Hector, and then they asked me why I’m calling. Sometimes they just put me through.

In either case the pitch was the same: “we are a marketing company focused on helping X companies, and we’ve recently worked with a competitor of yours, {competitor name} to build a funnel that brings them 65 leads per week. I know that sounds crazy, and that’s why we’re currently looking for others whom we may be able to implement this for. May I ask a few questions about your marketing to see if this could help and if it can, perhaps we can arrange for a demo with your team?”

And then I asked them everything I wanted to know and they spilled the beans immediately. You know why, because I dangled the holy grail in front of them, and told them they’ll get a demo AND their competitors are crushing them. I got them so F*cking curious what it is, that they’d tell me ANYTHING to find out. So I found out what was working in the market at that time. Free market research.

And we used it to scale that company to da moon. Dude, the sky’s the limit if you start using that noggin to actually do some thinking for ya.

I've heard of some of these techniques to get past the gatekeepers. So far I've been using LinkedIn to get feedback from loan officers on the tool and asked how they'd improve it, but I could probably apply this similarly.

Usually, loan officers that weren't interested in the tool only said so because their brokerage provides them leads or they have a referral base, otherwise the concept of being able to run their own ads and automate the incoming lead generation from those sources sounded attractive.

HOWEVER, this is what they SAID, but so far none have taken ACTION and voted with their wallet, so I'm starting to take it with a grain of salt. But I do think that's a good idea I could apply.

Let me know what you think regarding my other reply about trying too hard to make this particular thing work vs leaning into something I'm already good at and finding people who value that.

 

[Andy Black]

But doesn’t this put you in a position where you have little control over how much you can grow the business? Isn’t this essentially a massive limitation on the scale factor from CENTS without you taking initative to essentially generate new demand?

Because here’s the idea… imagine being in a business where getting new business is just about asking for it. Say lawn care in the US — it’s as simple as going to people with lawns and asking them if they want it cut or running ads that those people get to see.

Why, and more importantly how is this different from Google Ads?

In lawn care, most people haven’t tried it, or if they have they’re not jaded — they don’t think “it doesn’t work”. Whereas for Google Ads many try it and think “it doesn’t work” rather than “I’m not working with the right provider”.

Hence, as you say above, only a small portion of businesses running GA are looking for a provider, and a significantly smaller portion of those know about you. This suggests that your way of getting business involves just raising more awareness about yourself, in the hopes that you will be on the radar of this small portion when they are looking for a new provider.

Now, you say it's not such a big issue because many businesses use Google Ads. But – you still have to be able to find those who use Google Ads AND are looking for a provider, AND you actually have to be top of mind for them at the right time, otherwise you won't get anywhere. And if this latter is hard, and only gets harder by the day, then you struggle to grow AND growth isn't actually in your control – there's no action you can do to get 10 new clients in the next 3 months for example. It all depends on being able to get in front of those people who are hiring at the right time, because the right time is always changing and different for each one.

That's one point – the other is, think from the perspective of the new GA agency. Suppose they get 1 new client – can they possibly make a living from one new client? I'd say it's unlikely, as most people start by charging $500 to maybe $1K/mo. Most people would need at least $3-4K/mo to make a living, which is anywhere from 4 to say 8 active clients. Which makes this method very hard to actually be implemented by a newbie, because they simply cannot acquire that critical mass of clients fast enough to stay in business.

Which is why I believe the competitive fields like Google Ads 100% require business development efforts aimed at generating demand, rather than just capturing existing demand. Unless you have some way to get in front of people looking for Google Ads – something like Upwork for a beginner could be helpful, though even there, most people will ask for prior experience.

I don't want to derail the thread. Word-of-mouth referrals has been fine for me. I don't need or want many consulting clients. If/when I decide to go after non-consulting clients in a specific niche then I'll adopt a different strategy.


@BPH1994 ... I think you're spending too much time asking questions and replying to comments. What action are you taking today?

 

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[Devilery]

I'm far from a sales expert, but I've worked with GoHighLevel for a couple of years (one of my clients uses it).

What is your product? Is it a GHL white-label thing? I've seen this advertised as a massive opportunity on social media, but that's far from "I have a SaaS", it's just a white-label piece of existing software that has dozens if not hundreds of features and needs continuous optimization and management to produce results.

So, you're not selling qualified leads, instead - a lead generation system (that is just a duplicate of an existing system).

Instead of GHL, it could have been a copy of a successful ClickFunnels 2.0 lead gen funnel. Or a lead-gen Facebook campaign. Ultimately, what really matters is whether it generates leads consistently and profitably.

Do you have at least 1 case study where you can show how much was invested into marketing how many qualified leads were generated, how many of those leads actually converted, and what was the cost per conversion?

E.g. My client needs sales. There's a maximum cost per conversion that allows us to be profitable. He doesn't care how I do it, as long as he gets a conversion for $X or below. I managed to do that, and I can now show what I've created to get clients at a cost per sale that's a certain amount below to maximum. Is that a funnel? Google ads? Facebook ads? LinkedIn outreach? Doesn't matter, all he cares about is: "I've spent $X, what's the return? How much does a conversion costs for me?"

 

[BizyDad]

But how can you? You can lead a horse to water but you can't force them to drink...

Tell me about it brother.

This tool could be absolutely amazing, but nobody knows because nobody's willing to try it.

That's the problem. Nobody knows. That means you don't know if it's valuable. You keep saying it could be.

You want sales advice? Make sure you know what you're selling. Figure out what problem you are actually solving. Then start talking to people who have that problem. Offer them your solution.

That's sales 101.

Right now, you aren't even sure you have a solution to the problem they have. Instead, you've given them the next best thing, and are preaching to them why your way is better than what they want. And then you complain that they aren't willing to nurture the leads.

There is so much contradictory logic in your posts, you aren't seeing the situation clearly.

But the market is speaking. No one is buying your product. And you aren't learning.

Which is why I said what I said. You're spinning your wheels. Just like a car spinning, its wheels isn't going anywhere but is wasting gas, you're spinning your wheels and wasting money.

To me, the answer is clear. Stop doing what you're doing. Find something that you know solves a problem, and try to sell that

Is it because of price?

Is it because of perceived difficulty?

Is it because I'm talking to the wrong type of client?

Do I just really suck at this?

I don't know, and that's what I'm here to try and figure out.

This is partly why I say I feel like I'm talking to brick wall. Several people have told you why they aren't buying.

You don't want to hear it. Instead, you're coming up with all these other reasons for why this isn't working. And these other reasons sound like something that you might be able to overcome.

So you still have hope. And as long as you have hope, you will keep chasing this.

And if I for a second thought it was any good, I would encourage you to keep going.

But it's not any good. It's not what people need and it's not what people want. They are not buying because money is extra precious to them. Right now, the mortgage business sucks. Therefore, they're going to be extra careful on how they spend their money.

They are not choosing to spend their money on you.

The section I highlighted in bold, what if I can do that right now? What if this tool does exactly that?

That's my point. What if? If it does exactly that, you should go into the business for yourself. You could be running circles around your competition if the tool really does this.

But you're afraid you won't make money.

So you don't believe the tool is worth much.

I appreciated your advice up until this point. I'm already down, why kick? You don't know my journey.

This is the first moment in the entire thread that I got any indication that you appreciated my advice.

I know you are new here. Try using some thumbs up or thank yous. It's how we tell each other we appreciate them. I noticed at one point you made the comment that something resonated with you. Try saying comments like that a little bit more often so that the people who are spending time trying to help you feel like they are actually getting through to you.

Everybody wants more deals, and to get more deals they need more appointments with qualified leads or referrals, and to get those qualified leads and referrals they need to get leads in general. So what am I missing?

Anyone can sell leads. I could go buy a list of names, emails and addresses, and sell that.

Why would anyone buy that?

Cuz it's pretty worthless. What people need is qualified leads. You're adding an extra step to the logic and using it to justify this whole endeavor.

Try to sell qualified leads and you'll have something.

That's what I need, reinforcement I'm on the right track. And readjustment if I'm not.

I usually don't tell people how to live their lives on this forum. But in your case, I don't know your journey, but I've walked this journey. So I'm speaking with a little bit more authority.

And you don't want to hear it. What you really want is someone to tell you how to make your business idea work.

And you aren't hearing that it isn't working. Your potential customers have told you it doesn't work. The people on this threat have told you it doesn't work.

Instead of listening, you are accusing me of kicking you while you're down.

I'm not trying to kick you while you're down. I'm trying to get through to you.

And maybe my stubbornness is actually rewarded, cuz maybe just maybe, some of this messaging is starting to set in.

I don't know why you felt the need the end an otherwise insightful post like this, but thanks anyway.

Hopefully, you now understand how difficult it is to talk to you. You've used the phrase, but thanks anyway, twice with me. That phrase doesn't sound like you're expressing appreciation. It sounds like you're being dismissive.

On the one hand, you want to claim how inexperienced you are and you need help.

Then when people come on here and try and help you, because it's not what you're wanting to hear, you speak with a lot of authority from your experience about why their advice doesn't necessarily apply to your situation.

It's like I have to argue with you to convince you. I believe I've posted more on this thread than I have on any thread in the last 6 months.

And I don't have time to argue with you. If you want to be stubborn and continue to waste money, you'll learn your lesson eventually.

This isn't kicking you while you're down. This is me pointing out the reality of the situation. We've all been a new entrepreneur. We've all wasted money on things. We've all not listened to somebody we should have listened to. We've all thought we've had some great idea that the market then told us was a crap idea.

If you become a successful entrepreneur, someday you'll look at some young starting entrepreneur and tell them the same kind of stuff I'm telling you.

Because everybody has their own journey, but your journey isn't all that unique. Keep going, keep growing.

 

[Antifragile]

I understand the parallel between offering value on here and in the real world, but that number is so low because I don't think I have much to offer to you guys.

I mean look at the advice you all have given vs the situation I'm describing myself in. Would you listen to me? I wouldn't even provide advice because I don't think I'm in a position to - I'm not successful when it comes to business, so I think the only thing somebody could learn from me at this point is what NOT to do.

Wrong.

Every single human has something to offer. Every single one of us can help another person in some way shape or form.

It just takes effort and desire to find a way... You could provide:

• Empathy to a member who needs empathy
• Encouragement to a member who needs encouragement
• Humour to brighten someone's day
• Reminder on something we often forget but you just read
• ...

Give > take.

Have that mindset and see how the world will "conspire" to help you too.

I know plenty of brokers who make seven figures too, but all they do is work.

Yup, some do. People I know don't.

Your friend sold a software that he knew inside and out due to having 20 years of experience with it, so he has a MUCH better grasp on what's possible with it. I don't know how I'd sell a solution BEFORE I build it and know it can do the things that it needs to.

Nope. He had 20 years of experience in the same industry. In those years he saw a NEED and solved for it for his employer. He saw it as an opportunity to branch off and did just that.

He didn't sell "software". He solved a NEED. He "sold" a solution to 10 customers. They signed a paper saying that when it's ready, they'll pay and use it. Just like when we pre-sell our condos, people sign a paper saying they need and want and are willing to pay for a condo that hasn't been built yet.

You keep quoting Noah Kagan, Alex Hormozi and using fancy words all over your posts. So much theory, I didn't read 80% of your other replies, except for what you posted to me.

Simplify!

Who can you help today? @Andy Black always asks that question. That's the only question that matters to YOU. YOU aren't ready for more yet.

GO HELP SOMEONE! Your goal is to get a "thank you!"

Full circle we come to your comment: "I understand the parallel between offering value on here and in the real world, but that number is so low because I don't think I have much to offer to you guys." Is the very reason you struggle in business.

 

[Kevin88660]

To answer back the original question on sales advice, sales happens within the context of a business and not vice versa.

A lot people seem to believe that you can sell A you can sell B and therefore once you “mastered sales” you make dead businesses alive. Nothing is further from the truth.

Sales is a process of doing the hard-work and not screwing up. It’s not going to turn shits into gold. It helps gold to get sold even faster with proper sales procedures and systems. And it reconfirms that shits are shits and sales people hate wasting time on shits.

 

[BPH1994]

What I advised you to do is learn how the successful providers generate leads. If you learn that, you can take the same successful strategies that are proven to work, to the less successful ones.

Currently I am on the same page with @Antifragile and @BizyDad and I don't think you have something valuable for your market. My proposition is that you create something valuable, by learning how successful businesses actually generate leads without referrals. Then you go find the losers in your market, and help them become successful, using those successful strategies.

Like put yourself in these people's shoes. You give them a CRM, so what?! The F*cking CRM doesn't use itself. What should they say to nurture those people? How often should they reach out? Do they need a lead magnet? How do they get the lead magnet? What should the lead magnet say? How do they get people into the CRM to start with? What ads should they run? Who should they target? How? All those questions pass through their mind, and when you're like "Oh, let's solve your problem with CRM" they think "OK, CRM is one piece, probably it's useful, but if the rest of the process doesn't exist, CRM is actually useless for me!"

Now imagine you approached the same people with a SYSTEM – I will give you the ads to run, the CRM to manage the leads, the step-by-step tactics to nurture and convert them, the lead magnets you'll need, the targeting, the offers you'll use, everything. You'd get people to start buying, I can virtually guarantee. Even if you can't deliver on the final result yet (more clients), they would be paying you money, because at least they could actually SEE how they would be getting new clients with this, hence they would be willing to at least give it a try. If they give it a try, even if you don't retain them, you can still learn and improve the service. (he can "fund his development" @BizyDad )

But basically your "offer" doesn't even have the minimum necessary to convince someone to fork the cash, much less actually deliver the result you're promising. In fact, your offer doesn't even APPEAR to deliver the promised result, much less actually deliver it. So how can they trust you? You've designed your offer to be easy for you, rather than beneficial for them. You yourself wouldn't buy what you're selling, that's sort of the point @BizyDad makes. If you were the loan officer, you wouldn't buy the F*cking CRM. Why wouldn't you? Answer your own question, and fix those things so that they would actually say yes to your offer instead of maybe (no).

Look at all those SaaS companies... what do they do? They have thousands of blog articles and resources. Say a cold email outreach tool like Instantly. They give you a quick setup guide... step by step what you need to do to possibly benefit from the service. They give you EXACT EMAIL SCRIPTS you can use. Of course, none of them work, because all the idiots see that and start using the same scripts. But that doesn't matter – at least they build a credible path from TOOL to RESULT – in your case, there is NO PATH from tool to result. Your clients don't even have a starting point!

The sections I highlighted in bold I want to address because these are problems my tool is solving. A lot of this is set up to be automated, which is why I thought it would be so useful. I use it myself, it's what answered the incoming calls and calendar schedulings from the few leads I did receive until I could reply to them manually and set them up on my calendar.

That's why I'm disappointed that it hasn't worked - I thought the objection, through running this as SMMA, was that people couldn't afford to pay hefty retainers and adspend and weren't willing to unless they were promised results. So I thought giving them full control at a much lower price point would be attractive. I do all the backend setup so that it becomes plug-and-play for them and they can just automate responses to incoming leads and whatever lists they already have.

Clearly I'm wrong, but that's why I was so confident in this.

The reason I wouldn't use the tool for myself isn't because I don't think it would work, but because I realize the time and costs that would go into establishing myself as a mortgage loan officer, finding a brokerage to join up with, and hunting for clients while having no track record in a bad housing market.

I think I asked you earlier, but do you think I'm backing the wrong vehicle? Everything related to entrepreneurship boils down to "pick something and stick with it", but maybe I'm trying to jam a square peg into a round hole at this point.

@BPH1994 ... I think you're spending too much time asking questions and replying to comments. What action are you taking today?

You're right, it does take a long time to reply to these comments, but it took them just as long to read my problem, read my replies, and offer their advice, so I want to make sure to return the favor in kind.

Since I last responded the first thing I've done is stop the burn; canceled my HL Pro Tools which I prepaid a year in advance to get some bonuses specific to mortgage (I'll get a decent-sized refund for the time I haven't used), canceled UpHex (the advertising platform plugin to GoHighLevel), I'll be canceling GoHighLevel most likely (I'm paid up until August 15th, so I have some time there to turn things around before I have to consider the downgrade), canceling Zoom Pro since I'm not doing demo calls right now, and that really just leaves business license renewal and tax along with domain costs I believe.

Beyond that, I've started reading Unscripted , and I have your sales call videos saved, although it might take some time to get to them since this thread made me realize I have much bigger problems.

I have one client who keeps saying he's going to purchase the tool, but he keeps putting it off. He let me know this past Friday that he would get started on Monday or Tuesday. We had been in talks for a month now, after telling me initially that he would do it. I'd told him that if he completed the order form I could set his backend up and Monday or Tuesday could be the time we set aside for onboarding. I hadn't gotten a response so I feel like I can't keep holding my breath for this guy.

 

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[BPH1994]

Which is why I said what I said. You're spinning your wheels. Just like a car spinning, its wheels isn't going anywhere but is wasting gas, you're spinning your wheels and wasting money.

To me, the answer is clear. Stop doing what you're doing. Find something that you know solves a problem, and try to sell that



This is partly why I say I feel like I'm talking to brick wall. Several people have told you why they aren't buying.

You don't want to hear it. Instead, you're coming up with all these other reasons for why this isn't working. And these other reasons sound like something that you might be able to overcome.

So you still have hope. And as long as you have hope, you will keep chasing this.

And if I for a second thought it was any good, I would encourage you to keep going.

But it's not any good. It's not what people need and it's not what people want. They are not buying because money is extra precious to them. Right now, the mortgage business sucks. Therefore, they're going to be extra careful on how they spend their money.

They are not choosing to spend their money on you.

This section might be what I need to hear. Everything I've read or listened to from whatever guru or community I'm a part of involves some form of "keep going" or "pick something and stick with it", but as I mentioned above to @Black_Dragon43 I think I'm trying too hard to make something doomed work.

Whether the answer is a pivot, a different business, or to focus on my skills and try to monetize those instead, I'm not sure yet. That's what's been on my mind the last day or so.

I had a conversation with a friend in business who I've been in touch with for the better part of the year, so he's aware of my current ventures with this. I asked if I should just stop trying to make this work and focus on something else I can monetize where the product is me, and rather than having experience I have expertise.

That's my point. What if? If it does exactly that, you should go into the business for yourself. You could be running circles around your competition if the tool really does this.

But you're afraid you won't make money.

So you don't believe the tool is worth much.

I think the tool is valuable, but I don't think it's as valuable to somebody fresh. I think the type of person who would be interested in this is somebody who's already advertising, has a track record, has an online presence, and wants to scale and increase their business, but doesn't have time to hunt down and follow up with every new lead.

Plus, as you mentioned, the housing market sucks right now. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it because I don't believe in the tool, but because of everything else involved in getting to the point where I'd be able to use it.

This is the first moment in the entire thread that I got any indication that you appreciated my advice.

I know you are new here. Try using some thumbs up or thank yous. It's how we tell each other we appreciate them. I noticed at one point you made the comment that something resonated with you. Try saying comments like that a little bit more often so that the people who are spending time trying to help you feel like they are actually getting through to you.

Duly noted. I'm just focusing on the negative because I see the pile of problems stacking up and I'm trying to figure out why I can never find the solution.

Anyone can sell leads. I could go buy a list of names, emails and addresses, and sell that.

Why would anyone buy that?

Cuz it's pretty worthless. What people need is qualified leads. You're adding an extra step to the logic and using it to justify this whole endeavor.

Try to sell qualified leads and you'll have something.

I don't expect you to give away the secret sauce for how you're doing it, since you're doing this right now, but how do you really promise somebody a qualified lead?

I had a couple of mentors in this field who had also worked as MLOs who suggested keeping the entry requirements low (as in the barrier to getting in touch with the LO) because you would end up disqualifying a lot of people who otherwise could be helped, with a little legwork.

Plus, if you're trying to qualify early I'd assume you have more restrictions or questions in place. I had a guy who had a very specific and lengthy questionnaire that clients would fill out prior to getting in touch with him to see if they'd qualify. Needless to say, he didn't get many people who'd make it that far - as most qualified applicants probably have a network and don't need to cold call MLOs.

I usually don't tell people how to live their lives on this forum. But in your case, I don't know your journey, but I've walked this journey. So I'm speaking with a little bit more authority.

And you don't want to hear it. What you really want is someone to tell you how to make your business idea work.

And you aren't hearing that it isn't working. Your potential customers have told you it doesn't work. The people on this threat have told you it doesn't work.

Instead of listening, you are accusing me of kicking you while you're down.

I'm not trying to kick you while you're down. I'm trying to get through to you.

And maybe my stubbornness is actually rewarded, cuz maybe just maybe, some of this messaging is starting to set in.



Hopefully, you now understand how difficult it is to talk to you. You've used the phrase, but thanks anyway, twice with me. That phrase doesn't sound like you're expressing appreciation. It sounds like you're being dismissive.

On the one hand, you want to claim how inexperienced you are and you need help.

Then when people come on here and try and help you, because it's not what you're wanting to hear, you speak with a lot of authority from your experience about why their advice doesn't necessarily apply to your situation.

It's like I have to argue with you to convince you. I believe I've posted more on this thread than I have on any thread in the last 6 months.

And I don't have time to argue with you. If you want to be stubborn and continue to waste money, you'll learn your lesson eventually.

This isn't kicking you while you're down. This is me pointing out the reality of the situation. We've all been a new entrepreneur. We've all wasted money on things. We've all not listened to somebody we should have listened to. We've all thought we've had some great idea that the market then told us was a crap idea.

If you become a successful entrepreneur, someday you'll look at some young starting entrepreneur and tell them the same kind of stuff I'm telling you.

Because everybody has their own journey, but your journey isn't all that unique. Keep going, keep growing.

I'd say so, I think my issue now is that I'm looking for something actionable. I keep f***ing up each time I have an idea that I'm so confident will work, and then when it doesn't I'm wondering what everybody else seems to know that I don't.

Like I said to @Andy Black I'm going to read through Unscripted and see if there's something in there that changes my mindset and magically makes something click the way Fastlane did. Fastlane and this forum where @Sean Marshall described his business is what led to all of this because I was just going to relaunch some new SMMA ads I filmed and keep trying to make that work.

But maybe I'm backing the wrong vehicle.

In either case, thank you for everything so far, and I don't mean that dismissively. I'm just desperately trying to figure out what steps I need to take to NOT have a business venture fail for once.

 

[BPH1994]

Wrong.

Every single human has something to offer. Every single one of us can help another person in some way shape or form.

It just takes effort and desire to find a way... You could provide:

• Empathy to a member who needs empathy
• Encouragement to a member who needs encouragement
• Humour to brighten someone's day
• Reminder on something we often forget but you just read
• ...

Give > take.

Have that mindset and see how the world will "conspire" to help you too.



Yup, some do. People I know don't.



Nope. He had 20 years of experience in the same industry. In those years he saw a NEED and solved for it for his employer. He saw it as an opportunity to branch off and did just that.

He didn't sell "software". He solved a NEED. He "sold" a solution to 10 customers. They signed a paper saying that when it's ready, they'll pay and use it. Just like when we pre-sell our condos, people sign a paper saying they need and want and are willing to pay for a condo that hasn't been built yet.

You keep quoting Noah Kagan, Alex Hormozi and using fancy words all over your posts. So much theory, I didn't read 80% of your other replies, except for what you posted to me.

Simplify!

Who can you help today? @Andy Black always asks that question. That's the only question that matters to YOU. YOU aren't ready for more yet.

GO HELP SOMEONE! Your goal is to get a "thank you!"

Full circle we come to your comment: "I understand the parallel between offering value on here and in the real world, but that number is so low because I don't think I have much to offer to you guys." Is the very reason you struggle in business.

I see the parallel between your friend who branched off and @BizyDad 's suggestion that I go into business for myself using this tool to prove its success.

But, as several of you have already stated, the tool doesn't seem that useful, and maybe my confidence is misplaced.

So I'll ask the same question to you, do you think I'm backing the wrong vehicle? I'm constantly wondering if this would all come together easier if I were doing something I had expertise in, rather than just experience in. Because I know how I could "help people today" by doing something like that. But with this, the people I'd be helping wouldn't really be getting helped until 45-60 days down the line when their deals close.

I keep quoting Kagan and Hormozi because I read and listened to a lot of their content, and I think it forms a good basis for how to get a business going. Unfortunately, I haven't been so good at applying it so far.

To answer back the original question on sales advice, sales happens within the context of a business and not vice versa.

A lot people seem to believe that you can sell A you can sell B and therefore once you “mastered sales” you make dead businesses alive. Nothing is further from the truth.

Sales is a process of doing the hard-work and not screwing up. It’s not going to turn shits into gold. It helps gold to get sold even faster with proper sales procedures and systems. And it reconfirms that shits are shits and sales people hate wasting time on shits.

I agree, I just came here with that original question because I thought maybe that was my shortcoming - that I wasn't properly communicating what this tool is able to do, or that maybe I'm not talking to the type of client that would find this useful.

Seems there are much bigger problems than my sales experience, but the original question was to rule that out. I'm sure sales play a role in the failure of all this too, but I have some more fundamental issues to address with the business as a whole.

I'm far from a sales expert, but I've worked with GoHighLevel for a couple of years (one of my clients uses it).

What is your product? Is it a GHL white-label thing? I've seen this advertised as a massive opportunity on social media, but that's far from "I have a SaaS", it's just a white-label piece of existing software that has dozens if not hundreds of features and needs continuous optimization and management to produce results.

So, you're not selling qualified leads, instead - a lead generation system (that is just a duplicate of an existing system).

Instead of GHL, it could have been a copy of a successful ClickFunnels 2.0 lead gen funnel. Or a lead-gen Facebook campaign. Ultimately, what really matters is whether it generates leads consistently and profitably.

Do you have at least 1 case study where you can show how much was invested into marketing how many qualified leads were generated, how many of those leads actually converted, and what was the cost per conversion?

E.g. My client needs sales. There's a maximum cost per conversion that allows us to be profitable. He doesn't care how I do it, as long as he gets a conversion for $X or below. I managed to do that, and I can now show what I've created to get clients at a cost per sale that's a certain amount below to maximum. Is that a funnel? Google ads? Facebook ads? LinkedIn outreach? Doesn't matter, all he cares about is: "I've spent $X, what's the return? How much does a conversion costs for me?"

Unfortunately, I do not. I have a couple of people I tried to bring on board for free for that very purpose; 1 doesn't spend any time on it - he hasn't seen any success because he hasn't put any of his contacts into the automations (something I showed him how to do and instructed that there is live support 24/7, which he doesn't use) to nurture his leads, and doesn't run any advertising to bring in new leads.

The other 2 couldn't be bothered to set aside an hour to onboard - one said he would be too busy on his boat, and the other had to push it back and never pass along his availability. Which is also a problem with the perceived value of what I was giving them.

As far as the product, you're partly right - it is a whitelabeled GoHighLevel software. But I've also got it set to load a custom Mortgage Snapshop (handles lead nurturing, follow-up, etc all automated) and allow them to run ads through the platform, among other things. It's not just a copy-paste of GoHighLevel where they have to figure everything out - it's plug-and-play once they purchase and I build out their backend (which only takes a day or so).

Just wanted to communicate that it's not some proprietary innovative thing - but I didn't just rebrand GoHighLevel and call it its own thing without putting together bells and whistles to make their lives easier.

But the market has spoken so none of that really matters right now.

 

[Antifragile]

There is a trend in your replies:

• Should I stick with it or quit? When it is OK to quit your business attempt and pivot?
• If the market sucks for RE, how can I and why should I even try to become a broker?

These are great questions!

First, let's acknowledge that you even trying to start a business is a success. It's a success because anything that moves you closer to your goals should be a success. A failed attempt teaches you more than an attempt that succeeds because of market conditions.

In the business world, the decision to quit or keep going often comes down to many factors and you'll need your gut to tell you what to do. For example:

1. Profitability: If your business is hemorrhaging money like a vampire in a garlic factory, it might be time to consider a new venture. On the other hand, if you're seeing steady profits, it might be worth sticking with it and trying to grow.
2. Your own interest and curiosity: Are you still interested in your business after all these hours? Or has it become a soul-sucking chore? If you're no longer interested in tweaking it to make it better, it might be time to pivot to something that reignites your entrepreneurial fire.
3. Market demand: Is there still a market for your product or service, or has the landscape shifted? If the demand is drying up, it might be time to pivot to a new business idea that better aligns with the current market.

As for the "never stop" mentality, it's a bit like being a hamster on a wheel. You keep running, but you're not actually going anywhere. Sometimes, it's better to pause, reassess, and pivot to a new direction. After all, even the most successful entrepreneurs have had their fair share of failures and pivots. Personally, I was 0-4/5 in failures before first "success" which wasn't even that great of a success. It took 6th or 7th (lost count) to finally get to where I am today.

So, my advice? Trust your gut, do your research, and don't be afraid to pivot if the signs are pointing you in a new direction.

2nd: why should anyone even consider becoming a mortgage broker in this terrible RE market?

First, let's address the elephant in the room: the current state of the real estate market. It seems that some principal brokers are closing up shop faster than a magician with a disappearing act, while others are desperately seeking salaried positions like a lost puppy looking for its owner. And let's not forget about those poor souls whose licenses are gathering dust on the shelf, unrenewed and unloved.

But here's the thing, my friend: every challenge is an opportunity in disguise. Sure, the market might be tougher than a two-dollar steak, but that just means there's less competition to deal with. Think of it like a marathon, not a sprint. You'll need endurance, perseverance, and a good pair of running shoes.

Now, why should you even bother becoming a mortgage broker in this climate? Well, for starters, you'll have the chance to help people navigate the treacherous waters of the real estate market. Point being: don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. If you can help people in this market get a good loan, can you imagine what you could do in a red-hot market? You'd be running circles around all those who chose to look for "easy times".

I am not telling you to become a broker, I am simply trying to change your way of thinking.

You now: I want to make money Fastlane way.
You after: I wand to become a broker so that I can help people who would go bankrupt if I didn't find them the right financing to re-mortgage their house. I am saving a family after one of the worst financial decisions they ever made.

 

[BPH1994]

There is a trend in your replies:

• Should I stick with it or quit? When it is OK to quit your business attempt and pivot?
• If the market sucks for RE, how can I and why should I even try to become a broker?

These are great questions!

First, let's acknowledge that you even trying to start a business is a success. It's a success because anything that moves you closer to your goals should be a success. A failed attempt teaches you more than an attempt that succeeds because of market conditions.

In the business world, the decision to quit or keep going often comes down to many factors and you'll need your gut to tell you what to do. For example:

1. Profitability: If your business is hemorrhaging money like a vampire in a garlic factory, it might be time to consider a new venture. On the other hand, if you're seeing steady profits, it might be worth sticking with it and trying to grow.
2. Your own interest and curiosity: Are you still interested in your business after all these hours? Or has it become a soul-sucking chore? If you're no longer interested in tweaking it to make it better, it might be time to pivot to something that reignites your entrepreneurial fire.
3. Market demand: Is there still a market for your product or service, or has the landscape shifted? If the demand is drying up, it might be time to pivot to a new business idea that better aligns with the current market.

As for the "never stop" mentality, it's a bit like being a hamster on a wheel. You keep running, but you're not actually going anywhere. Sometimes, it's better to pause, reassess, and pivot to a new direction. After all, even the most successful entrepreneurs have had their fair share of failures and pivots. Personally, I was 0-4/5 in failures before first "success" which wasn't even that great of a success. It took 6th or 7th (lost count) to finally get to where I am today.

So, my advice? Trust your gut, do your research, and don't be afraid to pivot if the signs are pointing you in a new direction.

I think the big question on my mind at this point is whether to continue on this path that's already paved and has a market though I'm definitely not as well-versed with the industry...or do something I know I'm good at and figure out how to monetize it.

This next bit is probably just going to be me thinking out loud, but maybe it'll help if I list out where my head's at with all this, as it pertains to the 3 points you mentioned above...

Mortgage Loan Officers

1. Profitability: At no point have I made money in any of the business models I've tried in this niche. I had 1 verbal yes who changed his mind, and another who did actually sign on, but under a performance model where I got him leads but he didn't close anybody, both under the SMMA model. Upon switching to SAAS, I had 2 verbal yes, one which never got back to me, and another who's been putting off financially committing for a full month now. I have spent several thousand dollars on this model by this point, so profitability is well into the negative.
2. Interest: I'd be lying if I didn't say I was starting to resent talking to these people. The reason I switched from SMMA to SAAS was to give a more affordable alternative to agency retainers and adspend requirements - with a lot of bells and whistles to ensure success. Yet still, in this market where interest rates are almost 8%, everybody wants exceptionally qualified cold leads at the minimum adspend and doesn't want to pay until after they close several months later. I can understand they want to minimize risk, and I'm not sure how successful agencies are in making it work, but it seems so unrealistic. I still remember the conversation with the guy who would rather buy a list of 300 names for $100 and try to comb through and close 1 to get his money back...it just shows me how much they value money over time.
3. Demand: I don't really know. The bad market has surely knocked out a lot of loan officers who hopped on when the market was good, but I don't know what the successful ones are doing, outside of having a great referral base to draw from. I'm sure there's demand for SOMETHING to generate fresh leads, but I don't know what that is, since the loan officers I've talked to don't have the confidence to go in on the models I've presented, and are all coming from a place of being burnt by some other service.

And here are the alternatives that are currently on my mind, if I were to pivot.

Online Personal Trainer

1. Profitability: I have a friend who is doing this now through my local gym. He's making more than my current job's salary, and almost double, depending on his clientele. I don't know whether this is ALL from his gym clients, or whether he does anything online, but I would imagine that's how to scale something like this without having to spend 40 hours in the gym or work a second job to get by.
2. Interest: I've been in the gym since I was in 7th grade. I'm not the best when it comes to the science behind anatomy and exercise, and I'm not a dietitian by any means, but I'm VERY good at being disciplined and sticking to a plan that gets me/will get me results. I also very much like to work with people who are genuinely looking to commit and better themselves. I had worked as a trainer before and was annoyed by how mundane the excuses were that people came up with to skip a workout, but I did have a client who stuck with it and saw real results - I just hated waking up at 4:30 AM to train him for a half hour because he needed to do it before work.
3. Demand: Health is always going to be important. There will always be people who want to lose weight or get stronger, it's just a matter of how much they're willing to invest in that financially. I've had plenty of people ask me for advice on fitness and diet, I just haven't met anybody who was able to stick with it. Plus, I'm natural...I'm not sure how much that would play into my marketability, but I know plenty of people who can't identify somebody on steroids or other gear, and assume that their physique is obtainable by just listening to this person. That's another consideration.

Dating Coach

1. Profitability: This one I don't really know. There was a time when "pick-up artists" had flashy personas, TV shows, and boot camps geared towards helping guys become successful with women. I also know that a lot of these involved paid actors/models and were often built on foundations of grifting, giving them a bad reputation. That said, plenty of books, videos, in-field coaching, bootcamps, etc still exist, so it seems there's a place for them, niche as they may be.
2. Interest: Building off what I mentioned above, I genuinely like helping people who want to better themselves and are committed because I know they won't waste my time. I was a bit of a scrawny nerd before high school and was definitely a late bloomer when it came to being successful with women - so I went out of my way to better myself in this area. I love women, and I want to be in the position of being able to choose. On paper I'm not much; I'm 30 years old, make around $35k/year, and am stuck living with my parents in suburban Delaware. Yet, none of those factors hindered me because it was built on a real foundation. I'd be happy to share that with people who will listen.
3. Demand: Considering how easily somebody can get canceled these days, I'm not sure how many people are willing to be assertive when it comes to meeting women. A lot of people are content behind their phone screens on OnlyFans or in Instagram DMs. I'm sure there are some people who are fed up being overlooked by the women they're interested in, but I also have some doubts about WHO I can help, as there is definitely a limit to what's within my power to fix. I do, however, believe this is a more unique skill to have when compared to the above options - how much people are willing to pay for something like that in this day and age though, I'm unsure.

That's what's basically playing in my head right now.

First, let's address the elephant in the room: the current state of the real estate market. It seems that some principal brokers are closing up shop faster than a magician with a disappearing act, while others are desperately seeking salaried positions like a lost puppy looking for its owner. And let's not forget about those poor souls whose licenses are gathering dust on the shelf, unrenewed and unloved.

But here's the thing, my friend: every challenge is an opportunity in disguise. Sure, the market might be tougher than a two-dollar steak, but that just means there's less competition to deal with. Think of it like a marathon, not a sprint. You'll need endurance, perseverance, and a good pair of running shoes.

Now, why should you even bother becoming a mortgage broker in this climate? Well, for starters, you'll have the chance to help people navigate the treacherous waters of the real estate market. Point being: don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. If you can help people in this market get a good loan, can you imagine what you could do in a red-hot market? You'd be running circles around all those who chose to look for "easy times".

I am not telling you to become a broker, I am simply trying to change your way of thinking.

You now: I want to make money Fastlane way.
You after: I wand to become a broker so that I can help people who would go bankrupt if I didn't find them the right financing to re-mortgage their house. I am saving a family after one of the worst financial decisions they ever made.

Yeah, the market's awful. My mentor when I was doing the SMMA model was in the mortgage niche and I mentioned that I was considering pivoting to him as well. He said basically the same thing, that he would hate to see me put in all this work and have the market suddenly turn around before I'm able to realize some success.

I understand that way of thinking, but the clock keeps ticking and I'm sitting here waiting, but for what? I can't afford to keep operating as I have been because I have no income to balance out the constant losses. Loan officers won't talk to me on LinkedIn because they have their sales guard up. The ones who are doing well are in that position because they're nurturing their referral base. And whether my service is a dud or not, I can't even get these guys to use my tool for free.

That's partly why I'm not sure if I can help these people; yeah I think this tool does a lot of great things, and at a much lower price point than alternatives in the market. But even now, loan officers can't afford to fail, so they don't want to pay anything until afterward, they want it done FOR them rather than BY them, and they want the same lead quality as if they were a referral. I don't know how others are doing it, but I don't even know how well it works because I don't have anybody willing to try it.

This bit probably came across as self-limiting, and if you respond I'd mostly be interested in your thoughts on the above section, I'm just trying to look at my position realistically. I haven't managed to find traction yet.

 

[Antifragile]

OK, I think I understand you now. You are just starting out on this journey.

What do you do when you are new?

STEP 1:

HOT! - IMPORTANT! - Getting the MOST out of Fastlane (Required Read)

GETTING THE MOST OUT OF THE FASTLANE FORUM! First: Since most of you won't read this required message, know this: IF YOUR FIRST POST AT THE FORUM IS PROMOTIONAL, AI CONTENT, SEO BS, BACKLINKING, or SOME MARKETING BS CLOAKED AS "I need feedback" when you don't want feedback—YOU WILL BE BANNED...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

Specifically I mean read the books and read some of the GOLD threads (ones that catch your eye).

READ to WRITE. What I mean is that when you read say the book Unscripted - write down what you found surprising, useful, something you don't want to forget. Write as if you'll not have access to the book ever again, but will reference it for your future. Write no more than 10% of what you read, ideally 5%.

After this step, at a minimum you and I should be on the same page. At the moment we might as well live on two different planets. The gap even in terminology will be too large for us to truly understand each other.

STEP 2:

Write your thoughts like you did above, but now with a CENTS framework. You'll ask yourself if there is a NEED for personal trainers or maybe we have 10x more than necessary already... You'll then ask yourself if what YOU want matters or if the MARKET decides what it wants.

You now: I had a hard time dating, so I got better at it, I love women and I could be a dating coach. I also like to go to the gym, so I could be a fitness instructor.

You later:
"When I was at the gym I noticed that all women brought their own beverage. As I am good at approaching people, I asked what each one was drinking. I kept hearing the same complaint, they don't like products that are offered at the gym because they seem like they are targeting men. They don't like the look, the taste, everything about it, so instead one lady in her 50s told me she's ordered something on Amazon ...

Anyway, we became friends with these ladies from the same Yoga class. Now I know exactly what is missing, so I offered them free samples if they work with me to produce a product that fits their NEEDs. They happily agreed, it's been 6 months in the making, but I finally have the product, co-packer with packaging and marketing is rolling out, I just need the permit to sell health product here at the gym.

The owner is beyond excited. She's a lady in her 50s too and she's even thinking of running the gym for women only hours some days. I think it's a bad idea, MARKET wants people like me, men, in the gym too and we pay for it. Regardless, once I got my permits, we are off to the races and I plan to travel the States to roll out this product at every gym I can find.

I won't use Amazon because of their take-rate is high and also because I am losing control. At least for now, there is enough market in traditional retail, once I am big enough so that Amazon doesn't compete with me and my brand stands on its own, I'll roll it out there too.

What do you think? Does anyone have experience with getting a foodstuff permit?"

 

Dislike ads? Become a Fastlane member: Subscribe today and surround yourself with winners and millionaire mentors, not those broke friends who only want to drink beer and play video games. :-)

[S.Y.]

One, it is refreshing to see feedback being given by people I consider successful in business and for your @BPH1994 of sticking here and taking it.

Many here reiterated, rather eloquently, a warning I gave you in another of your threads. You are too focused on building and on your tools/business model - and not enough on your customers. All the subscriptions that you have are useless without a client. It‘s money given away - precious money in your case if I recall your current living situation.

Forget the tools for a moment. All you need is to understand what technology can do and roughly what the costs are. At your stage, your main goal is finding ways to add value - as in finding a solution to a need that people are willing to pay to solve.

All the setup behind the scene is useless without a worthy problem to solve.

Somewhere here you asked how to sell something that doesn’t exit. Right here, that question tells me that your focus is still on “products”. As an entrepreneur, you sell solutions first. For loan officers, you shouldn’t lead with the platform, but more so with what they will gain.

I think the saying is don’t sell drills, sell holes? Or better, sell the pride someone will get after hanging a beautiful painting, or the ease with which another one will complete renovations.

Hope you will heed the advice given here and take a step back. Forget money, you are wasting a much valuable resource: your time.

 

[BPH1994]

I very much appreciate all the feedback I've gotten thus far, but I do want to ask a quick question to the room before I respond to those helping me along here:

The guy I mentioned was interested and saying "yes", but constantly pushed back his start date for over a month. He called me and left me a short voicemail to call him back today. I have not called him back yet because if he wants to get started I'm not sure if this 1 seemingly noncommittal client is enough of a reason to revive all the subscriptions and get this thing back and running again.

Among the conversations we've had earlier over the last month, he's asked specific questions about ad limitations on the platform, how long it would take to get set up, and notably, whether he would be able to simply "pause" when things started getting slow or he wasn't interested in running ads.

I think it's probably not worth prolonging a doomed business idea, as has been mentioned several times in this thread, but I wanted to ask you all to see what you would do with that information in my position if he were willing to commit, whatever that means to him.

I have not called him back yet, as I wanted to think about it and see what you all think.

STEP 1:

HOT! - IMPORTANT! - Getting the MOST out of Fastlane (Required Read)

GETTING THE MOST OUT OF THE FASTLANE FORUM! First: Since most of you won't read this required message, know this: IF YOUR FIRST POST AT THE FORUM IS PROMOTIONAL, AI CONTENT, SEO BS, BACKLINKING, or SOME MARKETING BS CLOAKED AS "I need feedback" when you don't want feedback—YOU WILL BE BANNED...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

Specifically I mean read the books and read some of the GOLD threads (ones that catch your eye).

READ to WRITE. What I mean is that when you read say the book Unscripted - write down what you found surprising, useful, something you don't want to forget. Write as if you'll not have access to the book ever again, but will reference it for your future. Write no more than 10% of what you read, ideally 5%.

After this step, at a minimum you and I should be on the same page. At the moment we might as well live on two different planets. The gap even in terminology will be too large for us to truly understand each other.

This is what I'm doing now, with all subscriptions canceled, to see if it shifts my perspective the way Fastlane did, and helps me decide what to do next. Fastlane took a couple of days, and I was reading and listening to an audiobook at 1.5x speed - so I imagine with Unscripted being almost double the length that it will take me even longer.

But that's my current assignment.

STEP 2:

Write your thoughts like you did above, but now with a CENTS framework. You'll ask yourself if there is a NEED for personal trainers or maybe we have 10x more than necessary already... You'll then ask yourself if what YOU want matters or if the MARKET decides what it wants.

Question about this part. There's a lot that's been said about not wasting time trying to innovate but rather improving and simply doing a job better.

Having a lot of excess personal trainers, similar to loan officers, doesn't necessarily make them good, which is why they'll retire their license and do something else. That said, how would you conduct "market research" at a large enough scale to confirm you've got a good idea before you commit to it?

I made this mistake with the loan officer tool, so I'd like to avoid it in the future. I worked with them on a different model and thought the main thing holding them back was cost since the market is bad right now. I thought the solution would be something cheaper that does a lot of the same things that an ad agency does. I got feedback from multiple loan officers that I asked about this and had almost unanimous agreement that it sounds like a useful tool - even had one who asked about it and visited the page.

That said, nobody (save for the potential client I mentioned at the start of this message) has voted with their wallet. So what would you look for as "confirmation"?

Great post, as usual, I have a question about this though. Why do you consider that if personal training is hyper competitive, it means there is no need for it?

My industry is also hypercompetitive — but at the same time I’d say there’s a HUGE need, because despite the high competition and suppliers trying to deliver results, the client is usually left with little to no results at the end of the day. And there’s a LOT of clients who have problems. I’d say 90% of my target audience has the problem I solve.

Therefore it seems my industry is high competition, high need. And I think personal training is also high competition, high need. I’d say most people don’t get results at the gym.

This is kind of my thought process too.

I know plenty of personal trainers who got a certification, were hired by a gym, and haphazardly walk 40-60-year-olds through planks and dumbbell curls. I'd just have to do better than that, which I believe I could do, though I think it would come down to marketing myself - since I don't think most people understand what's attainable naturally and might want a trainer who has that look, unrealistic as it may be.

I'm not sure if it was Hormozi or MJ too, but both personal training and dating coaching fall under the "evergreen" industries of health and relationships, though not wealth.

One, it is refreshing to see feedback being given by people I consider successful in business and for your @BPH1994 of sticking here and taking them.

Many here reiterated, rather eloquently, a warning I gave you in another of your thread. You are too focused on building and on your tool and business model - and not enough on your customers. All the subscriptions that you have are useless without a client. It‘s money given away - precious money in your case if I recall your current living situation.

Forget the tools for a moment. All you need is to understand what technology can do and roughly what the costs are. At your stage, your main goal is finding ways to add value - as in finding a solution to a need that people are willing to pay to solve.

All the setup behind the scene is useless without a worthy problem to solve.

Somewhere here you asked how to sell something that doesn’t exit. Right here, that question tells me that you focus is still on “products”. As an entrepreneur, you sell solutions first. For loan officers, you shouldn’t lead with the platform, but more so with what they will gain.

I think the saying is don’t sell drills, sell holes? Or better, sell the pride someone will get after hanging a beautiful painting, or the ease with which another one will complete renovations.

Hope you will heed the advice given here and take a step back. Forget money, you are wasting a much valuable resource: your time.

I recall your advice. At the point where it was received, I had already sunk a lot of time and money into building this thing out and was experiencing a sunken cost fallacy where I decided to "see what happens" since I was already so far in.

But yes, I should've gotten market confirmation - IN THE FORM OF PAYMENT - rather than feedback from people simply TELLING me they were interested in what I had built.

As far as the "sell something that doesn't exist" concept, that's still something I'm fuzzy on. If I find a problem, and I know what the solution is, how do I sell clients on my ability to solve it if I've never solved it before?

Anyway, right now the assignment is to read Unscripted and perhaps get some of your opinions on the question I posted at the beginning of this reply. I am genuinely thankful for all the feedback I've received. I apologize if I come across as frustrated at any of you, it's not directed at YOU, but the situation I'm presently in.

 

[Kevin88660]

The issue isn’t being better than them, so much as attracting attention. If there are 1,000 people trying to attract the attention of this one guy, how do YOU stand out?

Most likely he’ll consider you to be just the same as they are, and therefore put you on ignore.

So the issue comes in actually getting the business. Can you swallow up more business than others, and if so, how? It certainly won’t happen just by being better.

Lots of people doing it is not the main problem.

The issue with bad businesses are also demand problems not competition.

People willing to pay for a trainer is still a small fraction of a population.

They don’t keep training forever due to their own time commitment.

From a pure business POV without social consideration selling junk food is a “better business”. Larger market and recurring demand.

A road side food van selling fried chicken and fries will earn much more than a fitness trainer sincerely hoping to change clients life.

 

[Devilery]

I recently figured out what I look for when deciding whether I want to close a client or not (I can't close everyone because I need them to profit from investing in me), and there are really 2 main things that I believe matter sales:

1. Clarity. What problem are you solving and for whom? IT services to small and medium businesses are difficult to sell - IT is a huge industry and there are millions of small and medium businesses with hundreds if not thousands of different IT problems to solve. But something like affiliate system development and management for WordPress websites is infinitely easier to sell. It's a specific service that works with a specific platform, add a niche/industry, and your competition goes from insane to a few key players.

Or take a general life coach or a mindset coach for realtors doing over 10M in annual sales (that offers to take them to 100M).

2. Track record. This is just as vital, can you deliver your super-specific offer? If you've got success stories, case studies, amazing reviews, you're good. Just show them to the right people and you're selling. If not, grind it out, and do whatever it takes to build up the foundation.

You don't need any specific strategies or mindset lessons, solve a specific, important problem, have proof you can solve it, and simply show it to the right people.

 

[BizyDad]

Among the conversations we've had earlier over the last month, he's asked specific questions about ad limitations on the platform, how long it would take to get set up, and notably, whether he would be able to simply "pause" when things started getting slow or he wasn't interested in running ads.

I have been doing this a long time now. And I would say I built my agency on clients with similar psych profiles to this one. He's on the fence and he is knowledgeable. He wants outs without terminating the agreement (that's what a pause is of course).

I still take clients like this. But let me spare you some worry. This is not the type you want as your only client. He very likely would have micromanaged you, adding to your stress and eaten up your time at a time when you need to be able to focus on growth. Even if he didn't micromanage you, you would have likely stress results for fear of him "pausing".

And if things went the other way and you overperformed, he would still pause, because he got too busy. Lol.

I won't say you dodged a bullet, because like I said, I still occasionally will take a client like this. I have one client "unpausing" tomorrow in fact. But you are saving yourself some mental stress for sure. Because one thing I know to be true is when a prospects asks about the ability to pause, the client will surely pause. He'll pause when things are good, bad and when he takes a vacation too. Lol.

It is best to move forward as you are. Good luck.

 

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[BPH1994]

I have been doing this a long time now. And I would say I built my agency on clients with similar psych profiles to this one. He's on the fence and he is knowledgeable. He wants outs without terminating the agreement (that's what a pause is of course).

I still take clients like this. But let me spare you some worry. This is not the type you want as your only client. He very likely would have micromanaged you, adding to your stress and eaten up your time at a time when you need to be able to focus on growth. Even if he didn't micromanage you, you would have likely stress results for fear of him "pausing".

And if things went the other way and you overperformed, he would still pause, because he got too busy. Lol.

I won't say you dodged a bullet, because like I said, I still occasionally will take a client like this. I have one client "unpausing" tomorrow in fact. But you are saving yourself some mental stress for sure. Because one thing I know to be true is when a prospects asks about the ability to pause, the client will surely pause. He'll pause when things are good, bad and when he takes a vacation too. Lol.

It is best to move forward as you are. Good luck.

I just wanted confirmation that this glimmer of hope wasn't a good enough reason to do a 180 and turn everything back on to try and make him happy as a case study/testimonial.

He called me again today, I'll let him know tomorrow that we're going in a different direction and thank him for his interest.

 

[Andy Black]

You are too focused on building

Can't remember if I already linked to these:

HOT! - MINDSET - Stop Building Stuff

Stop Building Stuff (Originally posted here and then here.) I worked for a company that was building a content creation platform. I worked for a startup that was building a new social network. I worked for another company that was building a call centre. I've had many many clients that were...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

HOT! - MINDSET - Start Faster. Stop "Learning".

If you're just getting started, haven't made a sale, or feel you're spinning your wheels then this 8 minute video should help. It's pulled out of a longer call (also linked below). Curious what your main takeaways are, and what you'll do different going forward. PS: If that helped, then...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

GOLD! - HOT! - Who have you helped?

I had a chat with Tony who describes how: One simple question got him unstuck. He's only been on Quora for 30 days helping people. He's only posted 29 times but is now top ranked for his subject matter. His bio sends people to a survey where he asks opened ended questions (as per the Ask book...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

 

[S.Y.]

As far as the "sell something that doesn't exist" concept, that's still something I'm fuzzy on. If I find a problem, and I know what the solution is, how do I sell clients on my ability to solve it if I've never solved it before?

Good question.

Let's take the field of HR. Employees turnover can be a significant cost to companies. Attracting and retaining key talents is something that is keeping CHROs up at night.

Say I want to create a startup to help companies with more than 10,000 employees improve their retention rate. I want to do it using AI and analytics. I have this new tool that can connect to their platform and gather data without encroaching on privacy.

I find Jade on LinkedIn, CHRO of Acme Inc. and reach out to him:

"Jade,

Employees are more demanding and switching jobs more than ever. Attrition is high and costs billions to companies. We can help your team keep your talents engaged with your company.

We can get to the heart of what your employees care about, stay on top of the pulse and proactively give them what they want when they want it.

...x"

It needs more refining... However that is how I would lead. No or minimal mention of my platform at that stage. Just outreach to add value.

I am expecting a long sales cycle. Jade will most likely include a member of his team and the approach adapted to each. One of them will be interested to see how I would do it, let's say or is Alice.

"Alice,

Gathering data from many sources is time consuming and often don't work. Let alone, employees concerned about how their data will be used.

With our platform, we can...
"

So for Alice, I will talk about the tools but again putting emphasis on how it help her: data governance, saving time on data gathering, helping them build the infrastructure to gather data than is useful, etc...

Make sense?

 

[BPH1994]

Good question.

Let's take the field of HR. Employees turnover can be a significant cost to companies. Attracting and retaining key talents is something that is keeping CHROs up at night.

Say I want to create a startup to help companies with more than 10,000 employees improve their retention rate. I want to do it using AI and analytics. I have this new tool that can connect to their platform and gather data without encroaching on privacy.

I find Jade on LinkedIn, CHRO of Acme Inc. and reach out to him:

"Jade,

Employees are more demanding and switching jobs more than ever. Attrition is high and costs billions to companies. We can help your team keep your talents engaged with your company.

We can get to the heart of what your employees care about, stay on top of the pulse and proactively give them what they want when they want it.

...x"

It needs more refining... However that is how I would lead. No or minimal mention of my platform at that stage. Just outreach to add value.

I am expecting a long sales cycle. Jade will most likely include a member of his team and the approach adapted to each. One of them will be interested to see how I would do it, let's say or is Alice.

"Alice,

Gathering data from many sources is time consuming and often don't work. Let alone, employees concerned about how their data will be used.

With our platform, we can...
"

So for Alice, I will talk about the tools but again putting emphasis on how it help her: data governance, saving time on data gathering, helping them build the infrastructure to gather data than is useful, etc...

Make sense?

It makes sense, but I think my struggle comes from selling a solution that I haven't built yet, and therefore don't understand how it's going to fix their problem.

In your example, it sounds like the tool is already there and ready to go, but isn't that the mistake I made here? Building something that I thought would be useful before I got verification from the market?

Using my own, if I were to make an offer to loan officers that I could get them 5 closed deals in the next 90 days that's an offer that some might take me up on. But once I get them on board how would I know I could fulfill on that if the tool hasn't been built yet?

On a side note, I was going to reply to Black Dragon as well, but it's looking like maybe he got banned?

Anyway, apologies for getting back to this so late but I'm still reading through Unscripted . One thing that occurred to me that might be a good idea is to create a separate thread from this to act as a journal of this process. In Unscripted MJ mentions how we people post exclamations about how they're going to become millionaires while never taking REAL action, with those posts acting as fake action, and that people can learn more from failure than success stories.

Once I finish the book maybe I'll start with that - a journal. Because I have PLENTY of failures. Journaling seemed to help me when I was in high school and had trouble talking to girls, so maybe it'll help here too.

 

[ValueSystems]

Hi, since you’ve talked about the context of SMMA and SaaS, I think I have some relevant insights to contribute.

How to sell with integrity:

Context: I’ve sold $30k myself for my SMMA through cold outreach from scratch and sat next to my friend who closed billion-dollar companies on his B2B SaaS offer.

We both used:
- Cold emailing campaigns
- Loom videos to pitch interested replies individually
- Zoom/Google Meet “Sales” calls

I can tell you upfront, I’m a more reserved technical guy, and this is NOT a natural skill of mine at all.

What I’ve found worked for me is this mindset switch:
Instead of focusing on “pushing” people in a direction, be the doctor.

You’re here to help. You’re here to uncover their situation with them, in a normal and human conversation, and find out if your solution is a good fit. No pressure.

Your goal is to diagnose their situation and see:

1. Why they are here (the problem they currently have)
2. What they tried before (and why that didn’t work)
3. If your offer is the best-suited solution.


Other useful insights:

- The CLOSER framework by Alex Hormozi helped me as a structure. Others have mentioned it as well. Keep just the titles of it next to you on the calls to know which phase of the discussion to push into.
- Just do a slide about yourself and how credible you are, but keep the rest focused on diagnosing them.
- Focus on asking relevant QUESTIONS until you’ve uncovered enough to know that your solution is for them. If you realize it’s not, propose an alternative that also helps them or just say you can’t help, and that’s it. But if you get that too often, then you’re either not targeting the right people or your solution is not positioned to solve the right problems (read “100M Offers” in this case).


In my opinion, if people are dragging their feet after saying yes, the problem is either:

1. The perceived value is not big enough.
2. The perceived problem is not big enough (ask questions like: “How has this problem impacted you in the last 12 months? Have you missed opportunities close to your heart because of this?” -> make it natural with the context of the conversation, of course; this is just an example).
3. You haven’t created enough scarcity/urgency (onboarding clients in cohorts: “Reminder: 3 spots left for the August cohort and I saved you one. Let me know if you have any more questions before we jump in next week” or “The offer we discussed is still applicable for July only. Let me know how you want to move forward”) -> decrease the number of spots available or set a deadline by which they will lose something if they don’t act.

That’s for the sales part. Hope it helps!

If you need technicals on the outreach/marketing part, let me know.

Cheers

 

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[justusmunene]

Personally, I'd provide the service manually first, or only turn the systems back on when you have signed up a client.

I prefer helping lots of paying clients manually first, and developing processes, tools, and systems as I go.

I like this line of thought. As a software engineer, I've always jumped into coming up with solutions (in the form of systems) first, then looking for a problem that can be solved by my solution.
I've realized this bias in my thinking and came to the conclusion that not every solution is a system/software, it can be, but not everything. Systems/software can be good for automating solutions.

 

[BPH1994]

In my opinion, if people are dragging their feet after saying yes, the problem is either:

1. The perceived value is not big enough.
2. The perceived problem is not big enough (ask questions like: “How has this problem impacted you in the last 12 months? Have you missed opportunities close to your heart because of this?” -> make it natural with the context of the conversation, of course; this is just an example).
3. You haven’t created enough scarcity/urgency (onboarding clients in cohorts: “Reminder: 3 spots left for the August cohort and I saved you one. Let me know if you have any more questions before we jump in next week” or “The offer we discussed is still applicable for July only. Let me know how you want to move forward”) -> decrease the number of spots available or set a deadline by which they will lose something if they don’t act.

I'd mostly agree with these points. A lot of the loan officers I got on calls with were hoping for a miracle solution to get them through this bad market phase when they wanted to offer a specific product that was unrealistic (refinance, for example) or needed lead generation.

A lot of them wanted pay-for-performance models that I can't afford to run because I'd be taking a loss for several months until/if they close, which is why I thought a good solution would be the SAAS at a fraction of the price with more bells and whistles and control - which was wrong.

It's very likely that after going through Unscripted and some of the gold posts that I'll end up pivoting into a different niche entirely. I've grown to resent talking to loan officers because I've found them to have extreme expectations while also being incredibly cheap. Whether my solution was good or not, I'll never know, either they said "no" or the people who said "yes" dragged their feet until they talked themselves out of it.

I mentioned to @S.Y. in messages regarding this thread that the greatest difficulty I have is selling a solution that I've never fulfilled or seen work yet. I don't know how good or bad it is because nobody's tried it, so I don't know how to prescribe this solution with any conviction because I truly DON'T know what their results will be.

Anyway, all this to say I'm still going through Unscripted , then will decide how to move forward from there, ideally with a business I can at least apply SAAS to, in order to remove myself from it at a future point.

 

[matthew1926]

Cold emails still works! I don't have money to throw at Google, LinkedIn or Facebook. So I can only depend on cold emails. You can google for a list of your target audiences, go to their website and get all the contact / general emails. And yes, they will read your emails. If your content interest them, they will reply and get in touch with you.

If you have some budget, you can invest about $100 for a list of few thousand emails and start to bulk email them. I personally got a few 100% ROI and I sell physical courses.

 

[amp0193]

Cold emails still works!

It's as simple as just personalize the email.


Not auto-fill the name of the lead and the name of the business.


Not AI generate some shit.


Definitely not make a loom video that I have zero time or desire to watch.


Literally personalize and hand-type the entire email to tailor the needs of your offer to that specific business (and keep it brief and to the point).


I read every cold email for 1-2 seconds before hitting the "spam" button. The ones that personalize (less than 0.1% of them), I generally read in their entirety and sometimes give them business if it's relevant to what I need.


Even if I need the thing that someone says that they sell, if it's not personalized, it gets spammed away anyways.