Rigged For The Rich?

[Vigilante]

I marvel every time I see how people respond to Michael Moore and Bruce Springsteen.

They have both made fortunes peeling money out of the wallets of the poor man by preaching about how the 1% is repressing them.

 

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[OldFaithful]

Yes indeed...the system is rigged!!!

The system is rigged in favor of those who contribute the least. If the system were not rigged, the least productive in the USA would be living a 3rd world existence. The stereotypical union member would either be out of a job or making $10/hr, and those who currently work the welfare system would have to work at McDonald's.

The system is rigged against the productive.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

LOL, saw this and thought of this thread...

 

[Andy Black]

LOL, saw this and thought of this thread...

View attachment 12678

Bet that doesn't go viral on Facebook...

 

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[QDF]

LOL, saw this and thought of this thread...

View attachment 12678

[HASHTAG]#AtlasShrugged[/HASHTAG] Summary

 

[The-J]

Chess and Go are "rigged" such that the player who can calculate, think and plan winning moves ahead better wins.

I agree with your post... except Chess and Go are both 'rigged' in favor of the player that goes first.

 

[redsfaithful]

I marvel every time I see how people respond to Bruce Springsteen.

Yeah, that's a really gross misrepresentation of Springsteen. Moore too actually (he got rich by making documentaries people wanted to pay money to see - there was a market and he filled it, just like we all preach here), but even more so Springsteen.

Springsteen might be the hardest working musician ever. Wasn't explicitly political at all for much of his very long career. I recently read his biography which talks about how reluctant he was to speak out politically, which he pretty much didn't do (some very small exceptions) until the 90's, something like 25-30 years into his career.

Anyway, when we have threads like this I wish we could see everyone's net worth who is posting. Guessing there are many losers posting who are super fans of capitalism, but the system needs those too.

I'm a big believer in capitalism myself, it's certainly worked for me, but it's ruthless and requires a robust safety net. And the American system is certainly rigged, in many ways. It shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings for someone to point that out. It doesn't take anything away from the people who have success within the system.

Very little Chomsky says is incorrect, and very few people in the thread are really engaging with anything he's saying. I'm not a huge fan of Chomsky myself, for various political reasons mostly dealing with effectiveness and strategy, but the next person who actually refutes something he said in this thread I think will be the first.

There's a strawman on this forum where people seem to believe slow lane people think they deserve to be rich, which makes me wonder if ya'll have ever actually talked to people. Most people I know want security (which is non-existent anymore, unless you accumulate enough capital, and if you think otherwise you're kidding yourself), not to stress over health care, an opportunity for higher education, and a future for their kids.

Not unreasonable, and we can afford it in America.

Although a lot of people on this forum also seem to believe America is bankrupt and have been predicting an economic Armageddon since I joined 2 years ago lol

It's all odd to me. Like there's a need here to put people down who can't or don't want to build a business. The endless threads about "OMG can you believe how much people watch tv/sit on Facebook/are in debt/are liberal?"

You aren't special just because you decided to start a business. Someone else isn't inferior because they don't want to work 80 hours a week with the very real possibility of failing (my life for the last 15 years. Thank god it worked out - it didn't have to.)

You're not really even special if you've made a few million dollars. Millions of people have done it before you, and millions of people have made more.

Worry less about politics and other people and worry more about making more money.

 

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[redsfaithful]

Of course the system is rigged. Why wouldn't it be? You can either complain about it, accept your place as a cog, or read the damn manual and learn how it works.

Nothing built by crazed irrational humans is going to be perfect, so the ‘system’ isn’t going to be perfectly rigged. There are loopholes, cracks, exceptions, and points of entry galore. All it take is a willingness to learn how it works, the will to do the needed work, and the guts to follow through and take a risk at not being a cog.

It’s hard to go from replaceable part to operator. But I believe it can be done. Thinking like this helps me get through my cog-like days.

This is the best post in the thread. It's basically my life philosophy.

You play the board as it's laid out. There's no point in complaining about the board unless you're going to devote your life to changing it (and have a real shot at doing so, which is arguable with Chomsky.)

That doesn't mean you have to lie to yourself and others about the board. It's ok to recognize the American system for what it is. Many people are legitimately screwed under it. It is what it is.

 

[Ubermensch]

I marvel every time I see how people respond to Michael Moore and Bruce Springsteen.

They have both made fortunes peeling money out of the wallets of the poor man by preaching about how the 1% is repressing them.

Daniel J. Flynn wrote a great, little-known book entitled "Intellectual Morons: How Ideology Makes Smart People Fall for Stupid Ideas."

Below is an excerpt from this interview with Flynn summarizing his discussion of Chomsky's "dumb ideas." Additionally, he discusses both Ayn Rand and Michael Moore.

Noam Chomsky's (almost) Five Dumb Ideas

FP: What would be your definition of “intellectual moron”?

Flynn: An intellectual moron is someone who squanders his superlative cognitive abilities by relying on ideology rather than his mind to do his thinking. Next to this definition is a picture of Noam Chomsky.

FP: In your book you go into Chomsky's five dumb ideas. Could you share them with our readers?

Flynn: Noam Chomsky has had many dumb ideas, but I picked just five to examine in Intellectual Morons. Let me give you the abridged version of three that I discuss.

First, prior to the war in Afghanistan Chomsky warned of millions of civilian deaths in that war-torn country. The numbers are in and the highest estimates put the figure at a few thousand, while other sources put it in the high hundreds. Second, Chomsky claimed that Clinton's bombing of a medicine factory inSudan resulted in more than 10,000 deaths. In fact, there were no more than a handful of casualties. Third, Chomsky famously denied the Cambodian genocide in an infamous book review he co-authored in The Nation in 1977. He clearly accepted the notion that "executions have numbered at most in the thousands," and were generally out of the Khmer Rouge's control. He puts "slaughter" in the obligatory scare quotes, speaks of "tales of Communist atrocities," and regards a death count of a million or more as a joke.

FP: What are your views on Michael Moore and Fahrenheit 9/11?

Flynn: Fahrenheit 9/11 is a crude, anti-Bush campaign commercial. What's worse for Moore, it's boring, contains little original footage, and the film often appears grainy. It had a good soundtrack, though.

It's propaganda. Two types of falsehood stand out.

First, there are the specific falsehoods. One example would be Moore's claim that Bush waged the war inAfghanistan to help the Union Oil Company of California install an oil pipeline. But Unocal dropped plans for a pipeline when Bill Clinton was president. It's almost two years since we ejected the Taliban, and not only is there no pipeline but there are no plans for one either. This pipeline exists in Michael Moore's delusions, but not in Afghanistan.

Second, there are general falsehoods--dishonest portrayals. Fahrenheit 9/11 depicts smiling children riding ferris wheels, flying kites, and riding bicycles in Hussein's Iraq. Then Moore cuts to the war and images of burned, wounded, and dead children. On different grounds than Moore, I opposed the Iraq war but honesty compels me to ask: Couldn't proponents of the war just as easily have juxtaposed Saddam's pre-war brutalities with post-war happiness?

(End of excerpt)

Does anyone in this thread really have to refute Chomsky, the most cited writer on earth? I don't think that's the point.

We are entrepreneurs, not scholarly contributors to, say, The Anti-Chomsky Reader.

Being a (successful) entrepreneur does, however, often mean sniffing out - and sifting through - bullshit.

 

[juan917]

Yeah, that's a really gross misrepresentation of Springsteen. Moore too actually (he got rich by making documentaries people wanted to pay money to see - there was a market and he filled it, just like we all preach here), but even more so Springsteen.

Springsteen might be the hardest working musician ever. Wasn't explicitly political at all for much of his very long career. I recently read his biography which talks about how reluctant he was to speak out politically, which he pretty much didn't do (some very small exceptions) until the 90's, something like 25-30 years into his career.

Anyway, when we have threads like this I wish we could see everyone's net worth who is posting. Guessing there are many losers posting who are super fans of capitalism, but the system needs those too.

I'm a big believer in capitalism myself, it's certainly worked for me, but it's ruthless and requires a robust safety net. And the American system is certainly rigged, in many ways. It shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings for someone to point that out. It doesn't take anything away from the people who have success within the system.

Very little Chomsky says is incorrect, and very few people in the thread are really engaging with anything he's saying. I'm not a huge fan of Chomsky myself, for various political reasons mostly dealing with effectiveness and strategy, but the next person who actually refutes something he said in this thread I think will be the first.

There's a strawman on this forum where people seem to believe slow lane people think they deserve to be rich, which makes me wonder if ya'll have ever actually talked to people. Most people I know want security (which is non-existent anymore, unless you accumulate enough capital, and if you think otherwise you're kidding yourself), not to stress over health care, an opportunity for higher education, and a future for their kids.

Not unreasonable, and we can afford it in America.

Although a lot of people on this forum also seem to believe America is bankrupt and have been predicting an economic Armageddon since I joined 2 years ago lol

It's all odd to me. Like there's a need here to put people down who can't or don't want to build a business. The endless threads about "OMG can you believe how much people watch tv/sit on Facebook/are in debt/are liberal?"

You aren't special just because you decided to start a business. Someone else isn't inferior because they don't want to work 80 hours a week with the very real possibility of failing (my life for the last 15 years. Thank god it worked out - it didn't have to.)

You're not really even special if you've made a few million dollars. Millions of people have done it before you, and millions of people have made more.

Worry less about politics and other people and worry more about making more money.

Isn't most of America broke though. Like actually broke. Dont we also spend the most on healthcare per person too?

 

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[Vigilante]

Isn't most of America broke though. Like actually broke. Dont we also spend the most on healthcare per person too?

Broke is subjective. The poorest Americans are richer than most people's average. Our poor people get free cell phones, free food, free housing, health care and other money. Most have flat screen televisions and luxuries other average people from other countries would consider wealthy. There certainly are some destitute people in America, but in general our poor are not poor by the world's standards.

 

[welshmin]

Being a (successful) entrepreneur does, however, often mean sniffing out - and sifting through - bullshit.

Not a fan but you gotta do what you gotta do?

 

[KLaw]

Yeah, that's a really gross misrepresentation of Springsteen. Moore too actually (he got rich by making documentaries people wanted to pay money to see - there was a market and he filled it, just like we all preach here), but even more so Springsteen.

Springsteen might be the hardest working musician ever. Wasn't explicitly political at all for much of his very long career. I recently read his biography which talks about how reluctant he was to speak out politically, which he pretty much didn't do (some very small exceptions) until the 90's, something like 25-30 years into his career.

Anyway, when we have threads like this I wish we could see everyone's net worth who is posting. Guessing there are many losers posting who are super fans of capitalism, but the system needs those too.

I'm a big believer in capitalism myself, it's certainly worked for me, but it's ruthless and requires a robust safety net. And the American system is certainly rigged, in many ways. It shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings for someone to point that out. It doesn't take anything away from the people who have success within the system.

Very little Chomsky says is incorrect, and very few people in the thread are really engaging with anything he's saying. I'm not a huge fan of Chomsky myself, for various political reasons mostly dealing with effectiveness and strategy, but the next person who actually refutes something he said in this thread I think will be the first.

There's a strawman on this forum where people seem to believe slow lane people think they deserve to be rich, which makes me wonder if ya'll have ever actually talked to people. Most people I know want security (which is non-existent anymore, unless you accumulate enough capital, and if you think otherwise you're kidding yourself), not to stress over health care, an opportunity for higher education, and a future for their kids.

Not unreasonable, and we can afford it in America.

Although a lot of people on this forum also seem to believe America is bankrupt and have been predicting an economic Armageddon since I joined 2 years ago lol

It's all odd to me. Like there's a need here to put people down who can't or don't want to build a business. The endless threads about "OMG can you believe how much people watch tv/sit on Facebook/are in debt/are liberal?"

You aren't special just because you decided to start a business. Someone else isn't inferior because they don't want to work 80 hours a week with the very real possibility of failing (my life for the last 15 years. Thank god it worked out - it didn't have to.)

You're not really even special if you've made a few million dollars. Millions of people have done it before you, and millions of people have made more.

Worry less about politics and other people and worry more about making more money.

Quite possibly....the best post ever. Get over yourselves and don't worry about others.

 

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[Dave510]

I'm a big believer in capitalism myself, it's certainly worked for me, but it's ruthless and requires a robust safety net. And the American system is certainly rigged, in many ways. It shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings for someone to point that out. It doesn't take anything away from the people who have success within the system.

Very little Chomsky says is incorrect, and very few people in the thread are really engaging with anything he's saying. I'm not a huge fan of Chomsky myself, for various political reasons mostly dealing with effectiveness and strategy, but the next person who actually refutes something he said in this thread I think will be the first.

There's a strawman on this forum where people seem to believe slow lane people think they deserve to be rich, which makes me wonder if ya'll have ever actually talked to people. Most people I know want security (which is non-existent anymore, unless you accumulate enough capital, and if you think otherwise you're kidding yourself), not to stress over health care, an opportunity for higher education, and a future for their kids.

Not unreasonable, and we can afford it in America.

Of course it's rigged. Any system where you can pass on wealth will inevitably become rigged. Someone will have a better starting point than someone else, but so what? Does it deny the opportunity for everyone else to create wealth? I don't think so, there are many self-made millionaires. Complaining doesn't logically imply that you won't do something to change your situation in life, but empirically there seems to be correlation between the two.

I think you're ultimately appealing to authority rather than engaging with what people on the forum are actually saying. You claim Chomsky isn't incorrect and no one understands his arguments, but you're not explaining exactly what he IS arguing, in your opinion, and how people are missing the point. I also don't think people here are saying everyone should be an entrepreneur, but if a slow lane job isn't providing the security you want, you can't just expect to do the exact same thing and hope for a better pay. There are options for a career change, like going back to school. Unless something changes drastically in the supply or demand side, or else your job simply won't magically give you what you want. Expecting it to is entitlement. Maybe you LOVE your job and don't want a job change, but I can't say I love to play video games therefore I should get financial security by playing video games.

Also, you can certainly not stress over health care. It's called Canada.

 

[Andy Black]

It's all odd to me. Like there's a need here to put people down who can't or don't want to build a business. The endless threads about "OMG can you believe how much people watch tv/sit on Facebook/are in debt/are liberal?"

You aren't special just because you decided to start a business. Someone else isn't inferior because they don't want to work 80 hours a week with the very real possibility of failing (my life for the last 15 years. Thank god it worked out - it didn't have to.)

You're not really even special if you've made a few million dollars. Millions of people have done it before you, and millions of people have made more.

Worry less about politics and other people and worry more about making more money.

I agree. Why do people feel the need to put others down? The amount of zeros in your bank doesn't make you more or less worthy than the next person.

Well put @redsfaithful

 

[Daniel A]

"Locus of Control

The extent to which people believe they have power over events in their lives. A person with an internal locus of control believes that he or she can influence events and their outcomes, while someone with an external locus of control blames outside forces for everything."



Source:

http://psychcentral.com/encyclopedia/locus-of-control/

Others:

http://wilderdom.com/psychology/loc/LocusOfControlWhatIs.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control

EDIT (more info):

Spoiler

 

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[ilrein]

I agree with your post... except Chess and Go are both 'rigged' in favor of the player that goes first.

Therein lies "The Secret".

Victory awaits the aggressor.

 

[The-J]

Therein lies "The Secret".

Victory awaits the aggressor.

I like the way you think

 

[RussRussman18]

Advantage or disadvantage /=/ "rigged"

this is victim mentality

Advantages do not guarantee success. Disadvantages do not guarantee failure. They are mere factors. Factors can be changed and overcome.

 

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[StevieB]

That doesn't mean you have to lie to yourself and others about the board. It's ok to recognize the American system for what it is. Many people are legitimately screwed under it. It is what it is.

In 1995 I was kicked out by my parents at the age of 15 years old. I worked at McDonalds and skipped around fast food restaurants for many years and fell into a bad drug habit that took me years to overcome. I had no parents to support myself and relied on people I hardly knew as roomates to help make ends meet. I went from working at fast food resteraunts, to radio shack, to the grocery store going in and out of a drug habit. On more than one occasion I either slept in a box or in my car. By 2000 I moved over 1000 miles away from my parents.

One day I got sick of living paycheck to paycheck barely being able to afford the basic necessities and constantly getting walked on by everyone that knew me and promised myself I would do whatever I could to dig myself out of this hole no matter what it took, period.

This was back in 2005 during the peak of the war in Afghanistan. The Army was offering a 5k sign-up bonus for Blackhawk mechanics. Now, I personally wasn't against the war and did sign up because I wanted to be deployed, but this was also a start to my goals, I would have joined regardless but went in as a mechanic to get the sign-up bonus.

In 2008 despite having 0 IT experience, just a certification (A+) I landed an interview and the hiring manager was former military which gave me an instant bond with him so I got a job in the helpdesk. Even though I finally had a break through, this job wasn't that much better and hated it. I also ended up setting a schedule were every morning I woke up and would go to the gym, then study. This went on for years until I finally earned 2 certifications then began aggressively looking for better opportunities.

At this point I just looked it up a few months ago and my income is within the top 10% of Americans.

I had every excuse in the world that the system is rigged against me and I was just "legitimately screwed". I had no support from a very young age, didn't have a college degree, even if I did try to convince my parents they were to broke to pay for anything, didn't have a high school degree (ended up getting my GED), got into drugs at a young age, hung out with the wrong crowd for years, and could have accepted my lot in life and would still be working a minimum wage job.

A few years ago I saw an old friend at a recycling center wearing one of those orange shirts. I hadn't seen him in years, I asked him what the hell he was doing there he said he got a DUI and was charged with involuntary manslaughter and just got out of jail after 5 years.

The only people that are legitimately screwed are the ones who think they are. Which are the same ones who listen to Chomsky.

 

[redsfaithful]

The only people that are legitimately screwed are the ones who think they are. Which are the same ones who listen to Chomsky.

You have a good story, like many of us here on the forum I imagine. You should be proud for sure.

I grew up blue collar and have a story too.

I'm a realist, and there are things I listen to Chomsky on (and some I disagree with) and my income is in the top 1%. So, have to disagree with you. The system disadvantages large groups of people in this country. The exceptional ones can rise above, but a system that requires you to be exceptional just to be able to afford to take a vacation every year and have good health care and be able to send your kids to college and so on is broken. Those should all be accessible things.

A lot of people on this forum seem really convinced that you can't be wealthy without blaming poor people for being poor.

 

[RussRussman18]

The exceptional ones can rise above, but a system that requires you to be exceptional just to be able to afford to take a vacation every year and have good health care and be able to send your kids to college and so on is broken. Those should all be accessible things.

Why?

God/the universe/whatever you believe owes you NOTHING. In today's world, you have more opportunities than ever. Is the system broken? Yes, but it is the best one we have, it inspires creativity, bravery and passion, without which humans would not be around today (and even with those things it's a miracle). Socialism and communism DO NOT HAVE NOT AND WILL NEVER WORK. For humans to give to one another and achieve equality, they have to do it of their own free will. If it is forced via government, 1. it defeats the purpose and 2. someone will (not 'might', WILL) abuse it

This thread is pointless and everyone in this thread has rekt you and that hypocrite red chomsky. If you hate capitalism, why are you on a forum that is all about capitalism?


You want change in the world? Don't cry about it on a forum or make a crappy documentary. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

 

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[redsfaithful]

Why?

God/the universe/whatever you believe owes you NOTHING. In today's world, you have more opportunities than ever. Is the system broken? Yes, but it is the best one we have, it inspires creativity, bravery and passion, without which humans would not be around today (and even with those things it's a miracle). Socialism and communism DO NOT HAVE NOT AND WILL NEVER WORK. For humans to give to one another and achieve equality, they have to do it of their own free will. If it is forced via government, 1. it defeats the purpose and 2. someone will (not 'might', WILL) abuse it

This thread is pointless and everyone in this thread has rekt you and that hypocrite red chomsky. If you hate capitalism, why are you on a forum that is all about capitalism?


You want change in the world? Don't cry about it on a forum or make a crappy documentary. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

The US military is a great example of socialism.

I love capitalism. I'm a very successful capitalist. I just have my eyes open.

 

[jon.a]

The US military is a great example of socialism.

I love capitalism. I'm a very successful capitalist. I just have my eyes open.

I disagree, I was a military capitalist. Good at it too.

 

[Get Right]

It's much easier to run away from the lion with the herds than have to hunt and do lion shit on your own.

From now on when people ask me what I'm doing this will be my answer "lion shit". Thanks!

 

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[redsfaithful]

I disagree, I was a military capitalist. Good at it too.

Collectively funded by our tax dollars is all I mean.

It seems obvious to me a healthy mix of capitalism and socialism (taking care of less fortunate, working towards having an educated, healthy citizenry, etc) is way to go.

I think people buy into a narrative with capitalism that makes them think they are better than others if they believe enough or have success. All I'm saying, but this is a pretty boring discussion so back to work.

 

[SteveO]

A lot of people on this forum seem really convinced that you can't be wealthy without blaming poor people for being poor.

What!?!

Edit: I grew up poor and content. Could not wait to get that construction job as a teenager.

Nobody deserves anything for free. There are freebies out there.... plenty of them. But they are not deserved or earned.

 

[MTF]

Nobody deserves anything for free. There are freebies out there.... plenty of them. But they are not deserved or earned.

100% agree. I find it sad when young people think in terms of what they deserve rather than in terms of what they can themselves make happen and get with all of the opportunities out there. There are and will be problems in the world, but life has never been easier.

By the way, made me think of this thread:

In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all—security, comfort and freedom. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again.

Edward Gibbon

 

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[Ubermensch]

Hard work is no longer fashionable, but vilified. Crying poor me on Salon has literally become a job unto itself.



Great take, I featured your post in the featured post cycle.

Cool; as long as my posts please you and @Vigilante , I know I'm on the right track here.

 

[illmasterj]

a system that requires you to be exceptional just to be able to afford to take a vacation every year and have good health care and be able to send your kids to college and so on is broken. Those should all be accessible things.

Food. Water. Shelter. Basic education. Basic health care. I can support these on being somewhat realistic things to provide to everyone.

Vacations and college educations a universal right? Not in a world I want to live in. A girl I knew received a breast enlargement to help with her low self-esteem issues through the public health care system in my home country. The government doesn't pay for my haircuts when I want to feel good about myself, so why don't we all have to do the same thing - save up for what we want and spend our money accordingly?