Improvement patent? Innovation patent? Same thing? Or any other way to protect a variation to an existing design concept?

[Implacabilis]

<div class="bbWrapper">Hey folks! I know there have been a million posts already on the subject of patents. I have been trawling through all of the threads and seem to be no further forward with this. I will try to keep it as simple as possible, as I know it is already a very complex subject.<br /> <br /> Probably like half the world of online entrepreneurs, I have a variation design concept to an existing idea. The product is well known and widely used. The aspect I am attempting to protect is the new design of this existing product and the way it is put together, offering new features and capabilities. I know the patent process is lengthy and very expensive, I know the patent attorney&#039;s also cost a great deal of money. My question, therefore, is this, how do you create prototypes from manufacturers without them stealing your ideas? Like many, I feel the variation in design offers something innovative and worthwhile, and of course, will sell millions <img src="/community/imgs/emoticons/em-wink.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-shortname=";)" />. However, this may not be the case in the minds of others. So spending fortunes on patents, waiting potentially years for them to be processed, to then find the idea flops, is hardly a worthwhile process. Surely there is a way to protect the initial design concept and variations without completing a full patent? Any info or help would be greatly appreciated. I&#039;ve spent hours, days even, researching this subject online and seem to be no further forward.<br /> <br /> I&#039;ve ordered an inventor/innovation starter pack that I&#039;m hoping will guide me through some of the process, as well as 2 books, the inventor&#039;s bible by Ronald Louis Docie Sr, and one simple idea by stephen key. But from the outset, these books seem to be aimed more at making money from patents and how to accomplish this as opposed to protecting initial design concepts.<br /> <br /> A further question I have is, what is the best approach to bringing the design to market? I have obtained technical drawings based on my initial sketches. My plan was to approach suppliers through Alibaba and ask a few to attempt to build a prototype from scratch(asking for trouble in terms of stealing the design)? Is there a better way? Forgive my ignorance. I am fairly new to this process. Up until now I only had a couple of poor attempts at selling mediocre products on Amazon which didn&#039;t feel right. That was until I read MJ&#039;s Unscripted masterpiece which completely changed my trajectory and what I wanted to achieve, and more importantly, why!<br /> <br /> Thanks in advance for your time folks, and apologies for bringing up an already well-discussed topic.</div>

 

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[BrianLateStart]

<div class="bbWrapper">Stephen Key is big on licensing your ideas, which it sounds like that&#039;s what you&#039;re wanting to do. I might have misinterpreted your post, it sounds like you&#039;re patenting the improvement to the original device, not a new device. <br /> <br /> The common approach to protecting yourself while making prototypes is to file a much cheaper provisional patent. It will give you a year to file a utility patent, if that&#039;s what you eventually decide to do and will give you patent pending protection. Doesn&#039;t mean someone won&#039;t steal your idea. I hear &quot;file a provisional patent&quot; thrown around a lot like it&#039;s magic, just file and you&#039;re protected. You&#039;re only protected to the extent of how well its written and only what&#039;s in the provisional is protected. Any improvements in the prototype stages that aren&#039;t in the patent aren&#039;t covered. You may need to file more than one.<br /> <br /> Unless you&#039;re making something that&#039;s very expensive, I would find a place that&#039;s more local to you to make the prototypes. It&#039;s going to take a lot of coordination to get a good, working prototype and a local shop will be easier to work with. Most places will sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement.</div>

 

[LightningHelix]

<div class="bbWrapper">To kind of reiterate <a href="https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/members/68489/" class="username" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" data-user-id="68489" data-username="@BrianLateStart">@BrianLateStart</a> , Stephen Key&#039;s book One simple idea is a great read about patenting. Also you can check out InventRight TV on Youtube, which is Stephen Key&#039;s channel. Most of the important info from the book you can find on his channel.<br /> <br /> PPA is probably what you are looking for, but you might need multiple PPA&#039;s. Also make sure to get an NDA. Depending on the industry and company, they want your ideas and concepts and don&#039;t want to rip your idea off (thus killing a golden goose). Of course this depends on several factors, so its best to get yourself a PPA and NDA and keep protected. The exeption may be flash in the pan ideas or trendy ideas that need to hit the market fast because they have a short expected life. In that case, you may want to cut through the process as quickly as possible and be first to market.<br /> <br /> Anyways, good luck!</div>

 

[Implacabilis]

<div class="bbWrapper">Hi Guys! Firstly thank you so much to you both for taking the time to write back. Both pieces of information seem invaluable.<br /> <br /> Since you both mention the value of Stephen Key&#039;s book in learning more about patents, I think this is an essential read, so I have made a start on the book.<br /> <br /> BrianLateStart, I wasn&#039;t aware there was such a thing as a provisional patent so will look into this asap and get cracking with putting this into effect before attempting to get initial prototypes. You also make a great point about working with more local manufacturers to get the initial prototypes made. I was aware that this would take a lot of work and many difficulties that it would present with working with manufacturers over video conference and messaging. I have already contacted many UK manufacturers to get an idea of costs and if something they would be able to take on.<br /> <br /> LightningHelix, thank you for the info on Stephen Key&#039;s channel. This may piece together the protection jigsaw a lot quicker along with his book. It did cross my mind whether to try and establish the brand and hopefully make a big impact before any others come along to copy the idea(if it indeed appeals to the masses). Its something I need to consider depending on whether it is worthwhile getting the initial PPA.<br /> <br /> I think my next point of call is to look into the provisional patent and how easily this can be put in place. I&#039;m presuming this will need to be done through a patent attorney but will look into this. I will also get a NDA drawn up before approaching manufacturers. <br /> <br /> First time on the forum and have to say how impressed and appreciative I am, for the wealth of knowledge people are willing to take the time to input and share. Hopefully in many years to come I can return the favour through my own knowledge gained. Thank you again!</div>

 

[Walter Hay]

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 77469" data-quote="Implacabilis" data-source="post: 855411" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/community/goto/post?id=855411" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-855411">Implacabilis said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> My plan was to approach suppliers through Alibaba and ask a few to attempt to build a prototype from scratch(asking for trouble in terms of stealing the design)? Is there a better way? </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>That is probably the worst way. If you approach suppliers on Alibaba, most of whom are traders, although they claim to be manufacturers, you will be working through a middle man thereby slowing the whole process, increasing the risk of your idea being stolen, and adding to the cost.<br /> <br /> Even if you can find genuine manufacturers in the field you need, it is very common for your product to be on the market before you ever see a prototype. NDA&#039;s (NNNs in China), are useless. Provisional patents are often ignored.<br /> <br /> If you can find a smallish manufacturer in the UK, willing to sign an NDA, that would probably be your best course of action.<br /> <br /> Walter</div>

 

[Implacabilis]

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 26072" data-quote="Walter Hay" data-source="post: 855861" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/community/goto/post?id=855861" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-855861">Walter Hay said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> That is probably the worst way. If you approach suppliers on Alibaba, most of whom are traders, although they claim to be manufacturers, you will be working through a middle man thereby slowing the whole process, increasing the risk of your idea being stolen, and adding to the cost.<br /> <br /> Even if you can find genuine manufacturers in the field you need, it is very common for your product to be on the market before you ever see a prototype. NDA&#039;s (NNNs in China), are useless. Provisional patents are often ignored.<br /> <br /> If you can find a smallish manufacturer in the UK, willing to sign an NDA, that would probably be your best course of action.<br /> <br /> Walter </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Hi Walter, many thanks for taking the time to message. I&#039;m reading Stephen Keys book on Patents hoping it will give me a better understanding of it all. The more time I have to think about it, the more I realise how silly it would be to go through foreign suppliers before the initial prototype was made. So I have been researching UK manufacturers in the meantime. My main concern is whether to approach them and ask for them to sign an NDA, only to find there was really no need. I have researched the product for days trying to find something similar but have found nothing, even looked through the minefield of existing patents. Without extensive knowledge, it is very hard to know even where to start when searching for an existing patent. So at this point, my main focus should be first finding out if I do indeed need a provisional patent or go down the avenue of exterior design protection. The product is an existing one but put together in such a way that it creates new functionality and uses(as far as I can tell). So how to find out if it does exist and how to protect it? I researched patent consultant and always comes up with patent attorneys. They are very expensive! Would they at least try to find out if the idea already exists and what avenue should be taken without paying thousands of pounds for the full patent?<br /> <br /> I have a starter pack from Innovate Product Design and the option to send an inquiry online. This seems a legitimate UK company and seems to get high praise for their work. They may help me choose the course of action to take.<br /> <br /> It&#039;s all a bit of a minefield. In my mind I thought, great, nice idea, research done online, get sketches on paper, technical drawings done, across to manufacturers to create several prototypes and onto market whilst pre-marketing campaign, and judge public reaction and sales, and take it from there. I never realised how careful you need to be with these things. On the one hand, the idea might be in place already and patent attorney&#039;s laugh at you, on the other you waste an innovation companies time who then also laugh, on the other if you don&#039;t at least try to put measures in place and the product/idea/brand takes off, you kick yourself for not covering your back! They sure don&#039;t make it easy. But then thats a good thing right? Otherwise everyone would do it!</div>

 

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[BrianLateStart]

<div class="bbWrapper">Don&#039;t want to state the obvious, but it took me a while to find patents. I assume you&#039;ve been to patents.google.com and entered the manufacturer of the existing product. It should show any patent they&#039;ve filed, if they have. It&#039;s possible it could be under the inventor&#039;s name, but if they&#039;re a company, they typically own the patent and will show up along with the inventor.</div>

 

[Implacabilis]

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 68489" data-quote="BrianLateStart" data-source="post: 856159" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/community/goto/post?id=856159" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-856159">BrianLateStart said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Don&#039;t want to state the obvious, but it took me a while to find patents. I assume you&#039;ve been to patents.google.com and entered the manufacturer of the existing product. It should show any patent they&#039;ve filed, if they have. It&#039;s possible it could be under the inventor&#039;s name, but if they&#039;re a company, they typically own the patent and will show up along with the inventor. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Hi Brian. Thanks for your message. The type of product it is, means that it is used widely across many many manufacturers. It&#039;s just a few design changes to that existing product(that has been around since the dawn of time) that makes it potentially a new concept and offers new functionality and benefits to it(again as far as I can tell). So even if there was an existing patent many years ago, it would have expired by now. So the patent was just to protect the new format and design of this product. But it is very difficult to know for sure if it has already been used in the past or been brought to the market. <br /> <br /> I guess either getting a patent attorney or filing for a provisional patent or protecting the exterior design will be the only sure way to find out if it would be classed as a variation and therefore new to an existing design. So a patent attorney or this innovation start-up company would have to be used. Even if I can start the ball rolling with UK manufacturers and get them to sign an NDA to cover the design just in case.</div>