Freedom vs. Children

[Andy Black]

My sons inspire me to be the man I'd like them to become.

 

[Vigilante]

This one might be a little provoking and is not intended to harm anybodies feelings. But it's a topic I'd like to get a perspective on this from you guys.

Most people don't value their time very well. Just look at the people standing in line for hours to get a freebie. Another great example are Gas prices. For those who don't know, here in Germany Gas costs roughly 2 times the price you pay in the US. Anyhow as soon as the price drops a few cents long lines start to form at the gas station. All the people are waiting 5, 10, 20 minutes to save a few cents. Years ago as a student I did it myself. When I see it nowadays, I simply drive by and decide to come back later if I don't absolutely have to fill up. I value my time more.

TMF explains the commandment of time and how important it is to have an asset that can exist without you're time being bound to it. The 4 hour work week and many other modern business and self development literature follow the same principle. There is always more money to be made but never more time to live.

The one thing that seems to consume most time in life are children. At least if you want to be a good parent, not leaving all education/parenting to your partner, the grandparents, the kindergarten, school or nannies. You want to be there for your children, don't you? But they will literally take away your freedom. Especially when small they schedule your entire day. No more freedom to go out whenever you like or work 16 hours a day. And isn't freedom what should be valued most? Or is it much more fullfilling to raise your own children than to have freedom of choice what to do with your time?

I think we can all agree that the best take on this is what MJ did. Become rich first and do whatever you want, e.g. found a family and spend much more time than anybody with a job ever can. But what if you're still in the fastlane, maybe and the beginning of your journey or not even started and want to have children now? Maybe it has to be soon because your spouse will be too old in a few years? Is it possible to spend enough time with your family and still work your a$$ off to become rich? Are you able to work at your peak all day when you've been awake 4 or 5 times a night because of your little one demanding it?

What's your take on this? Do you have children? If so how much time do you spend with them and how much do you work per week?

Or do you never ever want to have children and see them as a threat to your personal freedom? Or maybe you are in the fastlane because of your children in the first place? Does it motivate you that one day you will provide the best life possible for them?

Let me know.

I am older than most of you.

I have children older than most of yours.

I have a child younger than most of yours.

I have more freedom than most of you.

Freedom is not mutually exclusive from children.

This afternoon, I will be watching my daughter build a sand castle. How will you spend your Monday afternoon? Are you free?

@ChickenHawk was a middle aged working Mom before she penned a book that allowed her to quit her job. She has more freedom than most of you.

Fastlane freedom. You're asking the wrong question.

 

[Red]

I personally have never wanted kids -I have zero maternal instinct but was always made to question what was wrong with me by the adults in my life who adamantly proclaimed "You'll change your mind" or worse- "It will just happen eventually." F*ck no it won't. You underestimate my level of dedication to creating a fool-proof plan.

The older I became, I've realized that many (most?) people become parents by accident (or stupidity, or lack of planning) & then just decide to roll with it (because, really, what else can you do?). I have never wanted that life & that scenario terrifies me. I'm the first to admit that I don't want the emotional turmoil or responsibility of being in charge of another human life. I couldn't handle it. I don't want to handle it. I won't handle it.

That being said, I'm the most excited person in the room when I have a friend who has finally conceived after a long fight with infertility -why? Because they're getting the desires of their heart. And they deserve that. And I'm happy for them. I love getting the family Christmas cards in the mail that have family pictures. I love seeing people build their families & the kiddos growing into their own personalities & quirks. It's pretty cool to watch. Then, at the end of the day, I get to go home with my husband & enjoy our quiet, peaceful home. And it makes me smile, because it's what I've always wanted.

tl;dr: do whatever the F*ck makes you happy.

 

[DayIFly]

If you want to drop out of the evolutionary game, then you simply aren't competitive enough. Look Elon deeply into the eyes and tell him that you don't have enough time to have any children.

 

[Kak]

With bigger responsibilities comes a bigger drive.

When I was only accountable to myself I really didn't care if I took an entire month off at the expense of my business.

Getting married soon and planning on having children within a few years has motivated me like nothing has ever done before and I'm a pretty motivated person.

Not that I can't raise a happy and comfortable family on what I make now, but I want to give my family the world even though they aren't asking for it.

Do whatever you want, but realize you can absolutely have both. A family and ventures. Real businesses are systems that work for you, you don't work for them and not everything is a startup forever.

 

[Andy Black]

This thread has a lot less cyber-drama then I thought it would.

Lol. You thought there'd be more drama from the parents in the forum?


The parents are likely one or more of the following:

1) They're too tired to be logged in.

2) They're too tired to argue.

3) They've already had too much drama and arguing with their "little angels".

4) They've learnt to NOT be the one who gets stressed... as that means the little angels are winning. (Little angels are very good at finding the buttons so they can get their own way.)

5) They've learnt their role in life is as a referee. ("Who had it last?" ... "Sharing is caring!" ...)

6) They've learnt NOT to reward bad behaviour with attention, and instead to "Catch them when they're good."

7) They've learnt the best way to deal with tantrums and "I WANT!!!!" is not to fight fire with fire, but to be calm and absorb it, then deal with the root-cause. (Although this is a never-ending war and you're only as good as your last battle.)

8) They've learnt to pick their battles.
​

(I've been meaning to start a thread about what our kids teach us about business. I'll do that soon.)

 

[ChickenHawk]

I am older than most of you.

I have children older than most of yours. I have a child younger than most of yours. I have more freedom than most of you. Freedom is not mutually exclusive from children.

I'm thankful for this, and here's why. When you see smart people having kids AND fulfilling their dreams, it's one step against the rising tide of idiocracy. (See the movie "Idiocracy" if you don't know what I'm referring to.)

@ChickenHawk was a middle aged working Mom before she penned a book that allowed her to quit her job. She has more freedom than most of you.

Thanks for the shout-out! It's true. I was working full time and had a grade-schooler. It meant I didn't get a lot of sleep while penning that breakout novel, but man, has it been worth it. Right now, I'm literally on a mountain top, overlooking a beautiful valley, and working from home on my own schedule.

Here's the thing about kids. Short-term, they're a crappy investment. They take a ton of resources and give almost nothing back. You work and work and work and work while watching your child-free friends "living it up." Does this sound familiar? It should, because having kids is a lot like building a passive income stream. The best payouts come later. When my kid was a baby, he was a ton of work, especially because he NEVER slept. Now, he's 13, and he's so much fun. I love his conversation. I love spending time with him. He cracks me up, and gets my jokes. His friends make life exciting, too. Later on, he'll be the kid who comes home for the holidays and (hopefully) gives me grandkids. It will be the best investment I ever made.

When my son was a baby, I was like, "OMG< what the heck was I thinking?????" Now I'm like, "Dang. I should've had a couple of more."

 

[Iwokeup]

Being a father really forces you...no, I mean really forces you to dig deep and:

• Push yourself beyond your comfort zone
• Start thinking,
  • "What kind of memories of me will my children have?" or
  • "Will I be able to provide them with all of the education and mental tools necessary to kick a$$ in this world?" or
  • "Am I raising a kind, gentle person who will rise above their base animal ('me me me!') instincts?"
• Exhaust you beyond all reason
• Make you give a damn about the world, where social, demographic, and nation-state trends are heading.
• And, just like @Andy Black sez, it'll push you to actually become the awesome hero your children believe you to be.

For damn sure, this process is tougher with children on board. But so what? Just like one of my favorite Marine Corps recruiting posters states,

 

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[RHL]

Parenthood isn't right for everyone. People who know that about themselves aren't selfish, they might just be acting sensibly.

For some people, kids devour your time. For others, it provides you with the laser focus that will keep you awake in the early watches of the night and hungry at all times. If you got a sensible spouse, they don't *need* you like your kid does. My wife's quality of life would be fine without me, she makes a decent living and has her crap in order. Her house would be a lot neater too, I tend to "blow up" my work spaces.

But kids, you're all they've got. What you do for them is shouldering a burden they couldn't begin to lift on their own. Your success or failure alters the course of their life, maybe for generations. Your ability to suffer in silence and austerity during the building phase is going to be the mold that shapes their own greatness. When my Dad's business failed, he, with his degrees and experience that would look at home in the boardroom of Goldman or Facebook or anything else, took one day to mourn, then he went out and worked as a contractor doing roofing the next day, at 55 years old, worked 10 hours a day, then came home and worked on job applications at night until almost midnight, so even though our income came way down, we immediately had money coming in so we wouldn't go into debt rather than waiting for the phone to ring for months like many people do.

I'll forget my own name before I forget that memory. You're a lot less afraid of getting your a$$ kicked in life when you've had role models who've gotten over it and prevailed.

Like anything in life, if you really want it, you'll find a way. If you don't want it, people are different, and that's great. Just don't ever let fear or uncertainty stop you.

I talked to a kid who was 16 at a car show the other day ogling a Diablo and, his Dad offered "better study harder," and he came back with "I could never get one, it's just completely unattainable." Made me think of MJ. Anything's unattainable or unworkable or undoable if you give up before you even try. If you don't want kids, know it and own it like @Red. If you're not sure, do more research. If you're sure, don't be afraid. Just figure out what you want and take methodical action to make it happen.

I'm thankful for this, and here's why. When you see smart people having kids AND fulfilling their dreams, it's one step against the rising tide of idiocracy. (See the movie "Idiocracy" if you don't know what I'm referring to.)

Yeah, every time I think children aren't for me, look at the 20 year olds in Wal-Mart that already have 3 kids and it strengthens my resolve to at least try.

 

[Get Right]

I have 3 kids, a few cool businesses and time. Yes you can have it all

 

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[Red]

Still 99% sure youll change your mind.

With all due respect, F*ck you.

 

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[Jake]

I have a daughter. She's here in Hong Kong with me along with my wife. I flew here on Christmas day as I need to get up to Shenzen asap. With Christmas and my daughters birthday coming up I didnt want to leave them at home.

Ocean park yesterday, business dealing in Shenzen tomorrow, then Disney the following day for my Daughters birthday.

Family shouldn't hold you back. They become a reason to do, to succeed, to get shit done and put a smile on their faces.

 

[jon.a]

A simpler question...

Why have children?

Cheap farm labor.

 

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[SteveO]

I have three kids. All grown and going their own direction.

I was very involved with their lives. I raised them for a while as a single parent as I kept them after the separation. I worked full time, was head coach of their teams for more than 30 different seasons, continued to run and play softball.

I never catered to them. Watching other parents through all of the many years made me realize that most parents are far too involved with their kids. And I don't mean in a good way. Their kids are always the best and never wrong. Their kids should have nothing but the best experiences in all that they do. The list goes on.

It taught me that my kids are just humans like the rest of the world. I continue to love them very much but most special treatment went away.

They will tell you that I am the best father in the world (at least that is what they tell me. )

In hindsight, I think too many parents devote too much of their life to their children in the wrong way.

On the other topic, choosing not to have children does not make you any less of a person in any way.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

The Fastlane equation is about production over consumption.

Unfortunately, children are the ultimate defacto consumers -- both in time and money. For me I always recognized this and never considered the "have kids" option until later in life. Once I had more of both, time and money, then I would reconsider having children. Children require more than a full-time effort and from my POV, most kids are not getting that effort-- instead, they get a part-time effort from parents who are too busy with work. I didn't want to be that kind of parent.

Nonetheless, now that I'm in the position of having time and money, I really haven't had a change of heart.

My view on children is similar to @Red -- prioritize what you want and what makes you happy-- and go do it.

There is no greater joy for me than watching my kids grow and watching them experience the world. It's like a fountain of youth for me.

When I see them experience something for the first time, it often takes me back to that moment in my life.

When I see them struggle and then over come those struggles it gives me a feeling of pride that money simply cannot buy.

When I noticed a trait, quirk or expression that I know 100% is mine and not my wife's, I always get this strange feeling of gratification. Something I have never experienced via adrenaline, chemicals, God, money or sex. It's hard to describe and I'm sure it's some primal instinct to procreate or whatever, but again, nothing has ever given me these feelings before.

I have two daughters and I have made a lot of money over the years. I would trade all of that money for them in an instant.

My GF has a teenage boy and he's a great kid, far more mature than I ever was at that age. In my 20's, I would have thought of dating a gal with kids as a deal-breaker, but now that I'm older, I really enjoy it and love spending time with him as much as her. What you describe above is something I get to experience somewhat by proxy. I'm sure the blood-bond amplifies the experience, giving parents that great feeling of something that money can't buy.

 

[GlobalWealth]

As a parent of 3, I will chime in. I was a young parent at 21 (and no, I didn't F*cking decide to have children at that age). Now I have 3 kids, 19, 16 and 8.

They are definitely time and money consumers, but I don't regret one minute or one dollar spent. Early on in my 20s I worked a lot but also maintained a home office that allowed me to spend time every day with my kids (at least days not traveling). I don't consider it a lack of freedom, just an adjustment of priorities.

Fast forward to today. I am no longer with the mother of the kids, but see my kids very often and for extended periods of time. My daughter is 19 and lives in London. She visits me every few months and I typically spend a couple of days in London with her as well.

My boys live primarily in the US now with their mother. But in the past year I have traveled with my boys to various parts of the US, Panama, St Martin, Anguilla, Canada, Latvia, Estonia, the Netherlands, and Hungary. At last count my 8 year old has visited 22 countries (I may have forgotten a couple). Not to mention my other travels without them.

They have in no way inhibited my freedom. In fact, it was great to have them along for the ride and to share the experiences.

My view is you can use your kids as an excuse to not do something, or they can be your reason for doing it.

Life changes and you must be willing to make the most of your own personal situation and choices.

Of course ultimately it is a personal choice on having children (just maybe not YOUR choice if you are a man), but children need not be a burden unless you perceive them to be.

 

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[Seeker]

This one might be a little provoking and is not intended to harm anybodies feelings. But it's a topic I'd like to get a perspective on this from you guys.

Most people don't value their time very well. Just look at the people standing in line for hours to get a freebie. Another great example are Gas prices. For those who don't know, here in Germany Gas costs roughly 2 times the price you pay in the US. Anyhow as soon as the price drops a few cents long lines start to form at the gas station. All the people are waiting 5, 10, 20 minutes to save a few cents. Years ago as a student I did it myself. When I see it nowadays, I simply drive by and decide to come back later if I don't absolutely have to fill up. I value my time more.

TMF explains the commandment of time and how important it is to have an asset that can exist without you're time being bound to it. The 4 hour work week and many other modern business and self development literature follow the same principle. There is always more money to be made but never more time to live.

The one thing that seems to consume most time in life are children. At least if you want to be a good parent, not leaving all education/parenting to your partner, the grandparents, the kindergarten, school or nannies. You want to be there for your children, don't you? But they will literally take away your freedom. Especially when small they schedule your entire day. No more freedom to go out whenever you like or work 16 hours a day. And isn't freedom what should be valued most? Or is it much more fullfilling to raise your own children than to have freedom of choice what to do with your time?

I think we can all agree that the best take on this is what MJ did. Become rich first and do whatever you want, e.g. found a family and spend much more time than anybody with a job ever can. But what if you're still in the fastlane, maybe and the beginning of your journey or not even started and want to have children now? Maybe it has to be soon because your spouse will be too old in a few years? Is it possible to spend enough time with your family and still work your a$$ off to become rich? Are you able to work at your peak all day when you've been awake 4 or 5 times a night because of your little one demanding it?

What's your take on this? Do you have children? If so how much time do you spend with them and how much do you work per week?

Or do you never ever want to have children and see them as a threat to your personal freedom? Or maybe you are in the fastlane because of your children in the first place? Does it motivate you that one day you will provide the best life possible for them?

Let me know.

 

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[danoodle]

Being a recent parent, I will try and give it to you straight. Most people will tell you their kids are amazing and blah blah blah but the reality is i do have less freedom than before. Life is not all about me anymore.

I used to think this was strictly a bad thing, but the whole parenting experience has brought out parts of me i never knew existed. While i have always been into personal development, i now am striving to be the best person i can be on a different level. Another human life depends on it now. Any hangups i have, bad habits, issues, etc will likely be passed on to him. I absolutely must become the best version of myself for his sake.

I honestly used to hate everything about babies. Poop, pee, crying, complete and utter dependency. A leech that contributes nothing. A big event for me was when he started smiling. A smile that could warm even this grinch's heart.

Objectively a baby will cause you to have less freedom, more expenses, and more hardships. Especially if you can barely take care of yourself as it is. I honestly don't know how most people do it, it's been challenging for us and we are reasonably well off. Most people are not ready for this challenge, yet somehow they get the job done to the best of their abilities. Like i said, having kids will bring out things in people they never knew existed, both good and bad.

I think the ultimate question is whether it's worth it or not to have kids. This is a very deep question and differs for every person. For my personal situation, i think it will be worth it in the end.

My general advice would be do not have kids early. If you are younger than 30, i advise against it. Don't have them if you are not stable financially. Also if you have any mental issues or hangups, try and get them taken care of whether through therapy, personal development, whatever before having kids. Obviously a lot of people don't meet these three simple criteria before having kids. I just think it will make their lives a lot harder than it needs to be.

Ultimately it differs for everyone and you have to figure out what works for you. I know people who have had kids young and a lot of them, and they seem happy. I know others who are struggling to get by. Facebook does not tell the whole story. I know people who are trying, or couldn't conceive and ultimately had to adopt. I know people who have adopted kids with disabilities. Is their life harder? Objectively hell yes. I have mad respect for these people though, and the world needs more people like them.

Just know what the hell you are getting yourself into. There really is no right or wrong answer. I'll repost in this thread in 18 years and let you know if it was worth it or not

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

 

[SteveO]

With all due respect, F*ck you.

I love this non-word-mincing crowd we have here.

People make decisions for many different reasons. I don't see how anyone can say anything about someone else's paths. It does not make any sense to me.

My wife is probably the most level-headed and one of the nicest people that I have ever known. She is an extremely caring person in general. She made the decision not to have children for many reasons. If any of her reasons were selfish in intention, I would still support her fully. She is allowed to be selfish because it is HER life.

 

[jon.a]

A simpler question...

Why have children?

 

[Madhu]

I can't comment on this directly, as I don't have kids. But I do know of people with children who have set up businesses. My parents raised me and my sister while setting up a business and many of my aunts and uncles did so as well.

I think it really comes down to time management and flexibility.

Ambiguity is the biggest killer of productivity. Many people waste a lot of time figuring out what task they should be doing. If you have a clear list of tasks, you can free up lots of time, as you can just get on with stuff.

Having children reduces free time, but free time still exists. So if you have a good list of things that need doing, then you can maximise that free time.

 

[Andy Black]

But it sux because when I need to get shit done, there are constant interruptions.

Lol. I remember those days (not very long ago actually). Leaving out the front door, sneaking round the back and through the back-door, to spend the day hiding in a tiny broom cupboard of an office so they didn't know I was in the house. I hadn't expected it to be so hard to hear them playing in the other room and not being able to go give them a hug.

Now they're at school and pre-school, and then minded till 4:30pm, life is soooo much easier working from home.

Also, @ChickenHawk just reminded me to be grateful they pretty much all sleep through now. Three full years of only a handful of uninterrupted sleeps gets you pretty punch drunk.

But now the youngest is 3 I feel I can get a bit of my life back, and do more exercise, and get uninterrupted work time in the evening.

 

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[jon.a]

A simpler question...

Why have children?

A retirement plan.

 

[IGP]

There is no greater joy for me than watching my kids grow and watching them experience the world. It's like a fountain of youth for me.

When I see them experience something for the first time, it often takes me back to that moment in my life.

When I see them struggle and then over come those struggles it gives me a feeling of pride that money simply cannot buy.

When I noticed a trait, quirk or expression that I know 100% is mine and not my wife's, I always get this strange feeling of gratification. Something I have never experienced via adrenaline, chemicals, God, money or sex. It's hard to describe and I'm sure it's some primal instinct to procreate or whatever, but again, nothing has ever given me these feelings before.

I have two daughters and I have made a lot of money over the years. I would trade all of that money for them in an instant.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Elon- ( EL-ON) has time for everything including leading several public companies.

I bet his first wife would disagree.

 

[DayIFly]

With all due respect, F*ck you.

 

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[IGP]

Definitely a "to each their own" game...

My situation is bit different... Except for the few years my company got so big I needed employees and an office, I have been working at home since 2001.

So, I get to spend all day with my kids. And let me tell you, it is both the best and the worst the thing in the world!

It's great because when I want a break, I simply walk upstairs and hug them or wrestle with them or take them for a walk, etc. It re-energizes me and refocuses me on what's important to me.

But it sux because when I need to get shit done, there are constant interruptions.

My wife is a stay at home mom and she takes care of all of that stuff, but it still doesn't stop them from coming down stairs unannounced and messing up my groove.

In the end, not missing them grow up and being able to be a constant, positive influence in their life completely outweighs the dent they put in my mojo!

 

[Red]

But really, the only once who knows the real answer is the people with children, since they are the only once who knows both sides of the story...

This argument is not rooted in any logic. I don't have to get herpes to know I don't want it. Same with a concussion.

Now before you all go nuts thinking I'm comparing children to herpes, I'm not. I'm just trying to show that you don't have to experience something to know that you whole-heartedly don't want to do it. Skydiving also falls in this category for me.

This is also like arguing with a lesbian that she "just hasn't found the right man yet" -invalid argument there as well, folks.

It's very simple: some people want different things than you do. That's okay. Be secure enough in your personal wants/desires/goals & who you are that you are not threatened when others want something different. It's just that simple.

 

[Red]

People who consciously opt out of reproduction are choosing the ultimate in slow lane - the genetic dead end!

I fail to see the correlation in your "logic" here. Nobody bashed you for wanting children & choosing that life. Is there a reason you can't afford that same respect to people who have different beliefs/actions than you?

 

[Jake]

Its my ticket to life, travel, fun

My little freedom stealer doesn't let me have any fun