Freedom vs. Children

[UpEvil]

First time post. I am a parent of two kids both under the age of 7. They are big part of my motivation for joining the fastlane. I am more motivated now than before kids. But I am also a lot more time constrained.

 

[IGP]

This argument is not rooted in any logic. I don't have to get herpes to know I don't want it. Same with a concussion.

Now before you all go nuts thinking I'm comparing children to herpes, I'm not. I'm just trying to show that you don't have to experience something to know that you whole-heartedly don't want to do it. Skydiving also falls in this category for me.

This is also like arguing with a lesbian that she "just hasn't found the right man yet" -invalid argument there as well, folks.

It's very simple: some people want different things than you do. That's okay. Be secure enough in your personal wants/desires/goals & who you are that you are not threatened when others want something different. It's just that simple.

Totally agree on the some people want different things than others portion. However, your analogies are pretty far off.

Herpes = bad
Concussion = bad
Sky diving = fear

I don't think you can say that children are "bad" per se, but they can certainly be scary.

Here is a better analogy and a true story.

I am the youngest of 4 boys, we always had dogs, but never cats when I was a kid. When I graduated college and left home for good my parents were now empty-nesters. No kids, no animals just an empty house. My dad was retired at the time and we asked him:

"Why don't you get a dog? It will keep you company etc.etc."

"WTF am I gonna do with a dog? They are too much trouble, etc.etc.", he said.

"Ok, how about getting a cat." We asked.

"Cats! I F*cking hates cats. They're dirty, not social. I've never liked cats." he said.

"Fine, to each their own". We said.

Then one day a stray cat wandered up to the house. As these things go, he fed it once and it came back, before long they were fast friends. Pretty soon they were inseparable and that cat gave my father a lot of joy until one day it wandered off and never came back. My father was heartbroken.

I think this is the point eekern was trying to make.

My father never wanted a cat his entire life (he despised them) until one came into his life and it turned out that cat actually was a gift and it brought him a lot of joy.

 

[Bouncing Soul]

We tell each other we're wrong in our choices all the time on this forum...Why is there so much animosity on this subject?

My wife and I for a long time didn't plan to have kids. We got some pressure from others, but I never really cared enough to let it piss me off. Then WE, changed our minds. Do people feel this particular social pressure so strongly they get super defensive on this? (from either "side")

 

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[SteveO]

We tell each other we're wrong in our choices all the time on this forum..

Perhaps that is the problem.

Choices are simply that.

 

[Red]

Because its NAUSEATING to being told in a degrading way "you will change your mind", especially when its being told to a grown person as opposed to some snotty 13-year old that just learned how to spell "diapers".

I have a feeling you & I are going to get along rather well.

 

[BaraQueenbee]

My wife and I "lived in sin" for like 6 years, caught it for that. Then were married a few years not really planning to have kids.
I know what you are saying. But I didn't really care when they pressured us, and I didn't really care when they congratulated us (or now when the other "side" gives us shit, or links some anti-kid article someone put in the media, which tend to be very vitriolic, in the interest of driving the almighty click count). For your own happiness, maybe you should practice a bit of stoicism on the topic, @BaraQueenbee

Maybe a point to consider...what IGP said is what happens to millions of people (and sorta how it happened to us). I don't think he's trying to force you to have kids, just explaining why he said what he did, perhaps imperfectly.

Although I appreciate your concern, I do feel this is the other way around. Let's teach our children and the world to not be judgemental, on topics as this.
While we do this together as a society I shall work on a bit of stoicism.

Now back to happy hippie feelings.

 

[danoodle]

I can't not chime in this thread again, it's too funny to see everyone's cognitive biases. There are a few things people need to remember.

You are the most important thing in "your world". If you lose sight of this fact you will lose sight of your life. I am more important than my wife, and my child, and my parents, and my friends. I will ALWAYS put myself first. Which is why and how I am able to give them the life they deserve and be the best version of myself I can be. If you do not understand this logic, I sure as hell hope some of your kids don't die before you or they don't have kids of their own to let your "legacy" die out into a fastlane deadend. LOL If you put someone ahead of yourself, if you lose that person you will lose yourself. I truly hope that doesn't happen to you that think this way, although I am a sadist and kinda do hope it does happen to some of you so you see how wrong you really are. f*cked up? Maybe, but maybe it will also get you to think more.

The sun will eventually explode, the universe will collapse on itself or forever expand. Where is that legacy of yours?

People enjoy different interests and will have things that make them happy that others will never understand. Don't judge them. Whether that's having kids or not, don't reinforce your own biased notions by bashing others about their choices. None of you really know anything about anyone on here unless you've met them in person. You will not change their opinions or beliefs with a post on here, so stop trying. GG

 

[DeletedUser396]

Genghis Khan maximized both.
You can emulate him.
Or do what you really want.

Personally, I want children to propagate my awesome genes but I don't want to raise them full time.

 

[Red]

I live for my family but know plenty others who are all about themselves.

These are the covert statements that frustrate me. The implication being, if you're not about having a family (or what the speaker wants), then you are selfish/flawed/less-than. This is simply not the case.

Oh, your maternal instinct will kick in the moment someone is about to scratch into your motorcycle

LOLOL! Truth.

 

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[Michał Kóska]

I have a two year old son. So rewarding to see him growing up and learning the world. Yes, you may have less time than without a child. A child is the best time management guru!

 

[MTF]

On the topic of freedom and children... If you're 100% sure you don't want to have kids (like I do or @Red does, or @MJ DeMarco), vasectomy is one of the best freedom-providing investments you'll ever make in your life.

For the investment of up to $1,000 (it's usually cheaper than that), you protect yourself from losing at least $245,340, a lot of drama and countless hours doing something you've never wanted to do. Moreover your sex life will improve a lot, while your fears of having a kid by accident (or thanks to a crazy partner) will finally vanish. Where else can you get a better ROI? Haha.

Unfortunately ladies don't have it that easy with tubal ligation (it's an abdominal surgery, not just a simple 20-minute procedure like vasectomy is), but I guess that even in this case the increased peace of mind (plus reduced risk of ovarian cancer) is worth 1000x more than the money you'll spend on it.

 

[Mineralogic]

Lots of great posts by everyone and very relevant. I'm not sure if this is just a personality trait ( perceived loss of freedom) thing but when you step back and look at the world, I would think the world and others here would want to encourage more liberty-minded/independent/successful people to have their own kids so the crucial DNA and teachings would be passed on not only for selfish reasons but for collective success reasons. Alas like many things in the world that have changed, at the very time we need more of these families perpetuated, is the same time resistance to it is highest. Meanwhile, tons of kids are being born in areas like 3rd world with little care for the future by the parents.

 

[Seeker]

I'm actually amazed how much feedback my first real thread got here and it's interesting to see that so many voted pro children. I've expected more hardliners, but happy that there are so many mature opinions.

Look Elon deeply into the eyes and tell him that you don't have enough time to have any children.

Well I don't say, I don't have the time. It's absolutely possible but also a lot harder. The question is how much quality time can Elon spend with each of his children per day?
While thinking about it, he might actually have quite some time. But while he still does amazing things, he's more of a post-Fastlaner to me. His monetizing event happened years ago with paypal, giving him the freedom to do whatever he wants (which seems to be making children apart from Tesla and Space X). And so I guess his current projects don't demand 16 hour workdays anymore because he's able to hire great people who do the work for him while he is pulling the strings behind the scenes and is the creative mind...

 

[ChrisJTurner]

Every time I get to speak with parents (single parents more often than not), they all seem to pretend that life is all roses and everything is perfect.
However, after talking a little while longer, it normally transpires that things are not as good as they seem, because most of them dream of the single life.
No life, no money and just a heck load of drama.
Ok, they wont change their children for the world but I have spoke to many people who, if they had their chance again, they would choose to wait or not have children.

Also, many people in this modern age are just picking any partner to have children with, this is so so damaging to society.
I guess everything is disposable nowadays, even partners.
I think one of the reasons for this trend is third wave feminism.
Dont get me wrong, feminism has its place but it has taught women that they "can do it all" and men are redundant, which is one of the reasons for the rise in single parenthood. In fact, no parent can do it all. A child needs a mother and a father as a role model.
The above doesn't account for the amount of dumb people having kids. Dumb people parenting dumb children... this is bad for the evolution of our species.

I have also seen and had many friends been dragged through the family law court system, to have their children, homes and money swiped away by selfish partners, which is generally in favour of women, unfairly.

For these reason above, I am glad I had my vasectomy last year. Its my ticket to life, travel, fun and motorbikes.

I will say, I have met some families who have the whole parenting, fianancies and awesome kids nailed down to a T. I envy them and many other parents do.

 

[IGP]

The best thing about children is when they make grandchildren

That's because you can give them back when they start crying, whining, have a dirty diaper or start becoming a pain in the a$$! Haha!

 

[LEF]

I am a parent twice, and from personal experience it's in line with what everyone else said:

- Kids are a lot of work
- You need to be financially ready to have a kid, it's easily $600-$1000 per kid a month for at least 18 years (averaged out)
- You need to be emotionally ready, if you asking yourself is having kids a good idea? You are not ready, keep doing what you doing, and comeback to this question in few years. Essentially if you ready you will just know.
- If your woman is about to expire and wants to have kids, and you feel bad about it, and thinking about having a kids because of that, don't, talk to your woman, tell her you not ready, and see where that goes.
- You will have less personal fun time, but you will have a lot of kid fun time.
- Choose wisely who you are having kids with, wait until at least you've been with the person for few years. Your woman's career, education, personality and support network will matter once you have a kid.
- Try to hold off on having kids after you are 30, you are completely different person then when compared to 20s.
- And last, kids are super awesome, however not everyone can spend 7 days a week with their kid, don't feel bad, it doesn't mean you are a bad parent.

LEF

 

[jon.a]

There's usually more than one way to be right. Just try real hard not to be wrong.

 

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[Bouncing Soul]

Although I appreciate your concern, I do feel this is the other way around. Let's teach our children and the world to not be judgemental, on topics as this.
While we do this together as a society I shall work on a bit of stoicism.

Now back to happy hippie feelings.

I'll drink to that.

 

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[Newpollz]

Know that the life of this world is only play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting among you, and rivalry in respect of wealth and children, as the likeness of vegetation after rain, thereof the growth is pleasing to the tiller; afterwards it dries up and you see it turning yellow; then it becomes straw. [...]. [57:20] Quran

 

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[safff]

I don't know if I actually want kids or if I'm just accepting it as part of life. I don't want them until I get to where I'm going to, pretty sure the mrs won't hold out though. A tiny part of me yearns to still be single so I can knock my goals out without comprimise in a lot of ways

 

[jon.a]

Trying to tag Russ but I can't recall his screen name! He runs a B&B out in Napa & enjoys fatherhood more than anyone I know.... paging Russ...

[HASHTAG]#Russ[/HASHTAG] H hasn't been seen in over a year.

 

[happybhoy]

Ironically, I feel becoming a parent actually gives you freedom from social pressures and a lifestyle of procrastinating.
its a lot easier to make sacrifices when you have children to care for.

 

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[Mattie]

I would probably say having children is unique to the individual. No story is a like. In my case I enjoy having a son. There's pro's and con's. I feel he is a blessing and wanted to have a child. At the same time, I was a single mother living the Heroine's journey. I think your beliefs on the topic change over time. Today, I wouldn't have another child, not because I don't find children adorable, I just see the pain and suffering people in general go through. Fortunately, if you are the 2% of the world and make it to success, learn all the techniques to manage emotions, be mentally tough etc, you're lucky enough to figure out how to live life to the fullest, but there is no guarantee your children will find the same experience. And knowing things are passed generation to generation like belief systems, addictions, habits, abuse, etc. I'm not sure bringing more children in this world is the solution.

The world doesn't teach parents how to raise children in a healthy way, and most people aren't prepared or know how to cope when they enter relationships. Pain and pleasure and self-gratification is more important than having healthy relationships. It's wonderful if you happen to pull it off and create a healthy environment, and home, but I don't feel most people in the population do this whether they're rich or lower class.

 

[Learner Guy]

Ummm, that athlete only needed ONE vasectomy to prevent 1000 babies.

It's insurance - people don't get rich by getting multiple policies on their car, they do it once and they're covered against nasty happenings.

Anyway, have a great New Year all.

 

[Delmania]

This is my first post after reading these forums for months. Is there a niche for the homeschooling parent? So many do this and there has to be something. Any feedback is welcome.

A basic internet search would answer that for you. However, homeschooling is not a niche as you may think. You need to find a segment in that market and go after them.

Technology will eventually surpass biology.
You can either become immortal by leaving a legacy behind or create another unnecessary human.

Let's drive this to its logical conclusion. In approximately 5 billion years, the sun will run out fuel and it swell up into a white dwarf. The earth will be eradicated when this happens. There is a slight chance by that time, we will have discovered another planet we can survive on, and an even slighter chance we will have developed a means to get there. Furthermore, even if we do survive that, the Universe itself will run out of energy and collapse into a low energy state where only subatomic particles will exist. (That's one theory). Unless the various religions are correct about the existence of a supernatural entity, once the universe goes, that's it. Time is (literally) up. Existential nihilism is a great framing device, because ultimately, everything we do is useless and unnecessary.

In the meantime, while I await end End of Time, I am going to enjoy the moments I have with my children. Some people want children, some people don't. This is one of those amazing times when there is no right answer, just opinions.

 

[Mineralogic]

I really doubt Elon has the time for his kids I would find acceptable. But there's no way to know. There's also no "right" answer, and I am glad he's doing what he's doing.

Elon- ( EL-ON) has time for everything including leading several public companies. IN fact he has so much time that is why he is able to do all of this

 

[Delmania]

My big point is we need more freedom loving,

I find it extremely interesting that decades ago it could be viewed as having kids as not only legacy builder but as TIME/Money builder to the parents at some point! In other words, parents might have looked at the risk/reward favorably ( as kids actually helped on the farm, or helped chores around the house, mowing lawn etc). Today, they are viewed as money/time wasters either because the financial system/inflation toll has kicked in or because of the culture we seek. Why would you want kids if its true your kids live in your house until they are 27, demand to go to college without any real reason too( one can take harvard/yale level courses for free online now), and take away? To me it seems the system costs , the massive debt and long term inflation, etc are finally rearing their heads

Holy crap, did you have a bad childhood? Children are probably one of the most visceral forms of "you get out what you put in". If your is lazing about until 27, demanding to go to college, and then leaving you, I think I'd say you have utterly failed as a parent to raise your child. Children only incur a debt like that if you let them. They also infringe on your precious freedom only if you let them. I know of people who have gone on road trips with their children as opposed to sending them to schools. I know of people who have built successful businesses with children. I'm not sure what freedom you're talking about? The freedom to go drinking on the weekends and not care?

 

[ChrisJTurner]

My little freedom stealer doesn't let me have any fun

Choices my friend, choices

 

[HyperFocus]

I personally have never wanted kids -I have zero maternal instinct but was always made to question what was wrong with me by the adults in my life who adamantly proclaimed "You'll change your mind" or worse- "It will just happen eventually." F*ck no it won't. You underestimate my level of dedication to creating a fool-proof plan.

The older I became, I've realized that many (most?) people become parents by accident (or stupidity, or lack of planning) & then just decide to roll with it (because, really, what else can you do?). I have never wanted that life & that scenario terrifies me. I'm the first to admit that I don't want the emotional turmoil or responsibility of being in charge of another human life. I couldn't handle it. I don't want to handle it. I won't handle it.

That being said, I'm the most excited person in the room when I have a friend who has finally conceived after a long fight with infertility -why? Because they're getting the desires of their heart. And they deserve that. And I'm happy for them. I love getting the family Christmas cards in the mail that have family pictures. I love seeing people build their families & the kiddos growing into their own personalities & quirks. It's pretty cool to watch. Then, at the end of the day, I get to go home with my husband & enjoy our quiet, peaceful home. And it makes me smile, because it's what I've always wanted.

tl;dr: do whatever the F*ck makes you happy.

Still 99% sure youll change your mind. [emoji16] of course you could be the exception.

I wonder why so many people, especially young females, think they know what they will feel in the future. In the end almost all of them strongly desire kids, biology.

I also dont want any kids, but Im sure that will change with time. Raising a kid is beaitiful

Last point: not wanting something because its scary is not a healthy way to look at your life. Unfortunately most people seek the path of least resistance, yet they dont realize it makes their life harder in the long term.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

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[SteveO]

I know, that's why I posted it. Did I miss the joke here?

No. We are riding with you.