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Need to Escape the Slowlane of Investment Banking

Topics related to Slowlane, Scripted mainstream dogma

GuitarManDan

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Hi Guys,

I've been in investment banking for about 4 years (3 years at one company, almost 1 year at this new job/company). This new job/role is really driving me insane due to how toxic the culture and people are. I happened to stumble upon The Millionaire Fastlane and I've never been so hopeful before that there's something else out there.

I've told some family/friends about some ideas I'm having (currently teaching myself coding) and everyone thinks I'm crazy. My parents and brother are texting me almost every day saying how I have such a great job and everything is going so well and I shouldn't give up all of the hard work I've done.

I have a few questions and could greatly use your opinion about what my next steps should be to escape the slowlane and start my own business:

  1. Does it make more sense to quit ASAP or to start a business on the side and see how that works out?
  2. If I do the business on the side, how should I frame this to my current employer (the basic contract everyone signs says you have to disclose ANY "outside business interests" and they have to approve or decline my request to do it)?
  3. Has anyone on here been in a similar situation to me? If so, what are you doing now and what would you recommend?
Ever since I read the book, every single day has been so much damn harder to stand being at work. I feel like I'm dying a little bit more each day and it's so damn depressing. I just need to escape and try my hand at owning a business. I know I'd be fine working really hard and diligently if I was in control.

Thank you guys, really appreciate any feedback here.
 
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jon.a

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Does it make more sense to quit ASAP or to start a business on the side and see how that works out?
You'll get both answers here. Some of us more age endowed members will advise to milk your job for as long as you can.

If I do the business on the side, how should I frame this to my current employer (the basic contract everyone signs says you have to disclose ANY "outside business interests" and they have to approve or decline my request to do it)?
Who the F*ck are these guy's, the government?
Do you have a spouse/child who's name you could place the project under?

Has anyone on here been in a similar situation to me? If so, what are you doing now and what would you recommend?
Probably but, not me.
 

GuitarManDan

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You'll get both answers here. Some of us more age endowed members will advise to milk your job for as long as you can.


Who the F*ck are these guy's, the government?
Do you have a spouse/child who's name you could place the project under?


Probably but, not me.

Hey Jon,

I think my plan at the moment is try to milk this and work on my own business on the side. And to answer your question, it's a super snobby investment bank that says you can't partake in any outside business activities that may take too much of your time needed for your full-time role with the company... my senior managers are very ridiculous and will probably turn down my request is what worries me.

I do not have a spouse or child that I can put down unfortunately.

My immediate plan is to keep teaching myself coding and to keep just actively thinking every single day what my first business could specialize in. My current idea is website design, but I'm not sure how lucrative that is / how difficult it is to get clients as an unknown name. I'm also not sure what the pricing would be to design a website for a local small business.
 

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Hey Dan,

Tough spot. I agree w/jon.a

Since you make good money I assume, saving might not be a terrible idea. Save up enough with the intent to find a less stressful role in another company that may or may not pay less. Once you secure a job that allows more free time, then you can ramp up efforts to create something of value and test ideas. You could do this in your current position but I assume your time is limited significantly so it's harder to do.

Instead of learning how to do coding or design - here's an idea. Create a company and sell those services, but don't do them yourself. This is what I do. I sell website design, development, SEO, etc but I don't do any of it. Become good at sales and management with the intent to outsource the management role once you start making decent money. You now own a company that you are in control of without it overtaking your life past the first year or two of growing it to that level. To start, figure out a game plan, find some freelancers that do the service you want to sell, vet them/form relationship with them, and start selling. Call up local businesses. Email local businesses. Once you make your first sale, the rest will reveal itself to you.

Since your strapped for time, emailing local businesses every single day (don't even need to be local but local might give you an edge), and setup meetings/calls with the businesses. It won't be easy, but this is the path you should take. Sell. Sell. Sell. Once you sell something, finding someone to perform the service isn't that difficult.

As far as your current job finding out...personally I wouldn't tell them anything. Definitely not until you were sure about it and making some money. Create an alias online if you post anything. Don't create a biz until you're actually making some money. I'd worry if you told them you had other plans it could jeopardize your job, but that's just my thoughts.

Good luck and whatever you do, continue to take action. I know a lot of people who are stuck in jobs and like to talk about doing things but are still working a job 5-10 yrs later.
 
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GuitarManDan

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Hey Dan,

Tough spot. I agree w/jon.a

Since you make good money I assume, saving might not be a terrible idea. Save up enough with the intent to find a less stressful role in another company that may or may not pay less. Once you secure a job that allows more free time, then you can ramp up efforts to create something of value and test ideas. You could do this in your current position but I assume your time is limited significantly so it's harder to do.

Instead of learning how to do coding or design - here's an idea. Create a company and sell those services, but don't do them yourself. This is what I do. I sell website design, development, SEO, etc but I don't do any of it. Become good at sales and management with the intent to outsource the management role once you start making decent money. You now own a company that you are in control of without it overtaking your life past the first year or two of growing it to that level. To start, figure out a game plan, find some freelancers that do the service you want to sell, vet them/form relationship with them, and start selling. Call up local businesses. Email local businesses. Once you make your first sale, the rest will reveal itself to you.

Since your strapped for time, emailing local businesses every single day (don't even need to be local but local might give you an edge), and setup meetings/calls with the businesses. It won't be easy, but this is the path you should take. Sell. Sell. Sell. Once you sell something, finding someone to perform the service isn't that difficult.

As far as your current job finding out...personally I wouldn't tell them anything. Definitely not until you were sure about it and making some money. Create an alias online if you post anything. Don't create a biz until you're actually making some money. I'd worry if you told them you had other plans it could jeopardize your job, but that's just my thoughts.

Good luck and whatever you do, continue to take action. I know a lot of people who are stuck in jobs and like to talk about doing things but are still working a job 5-10 yrs later.

I really like this idea. And trust me I promise you I won't be one of those people who just dabble in these ideas, I'm committed and determined to escape the 9-5 grind.

How do you vet the freelancers (skills, background checks,etc) if you aren't aware of the specifics of web design and SEO? I have a lot more questions too haha but I don't want to write a huge essay of text.

Thanks for the advice man.
 

Fortune5ive

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Hi Guys,

I've been in investment banking for about 4 years (3 years at one company, almost 1 year at this new job/company). This new job/role is really driving me insane due to how toxic the culture and people are. I happened to stumble upon The Millionaire Fastlane and I've never been so hopeful before that there's something else out there.

I've told some family/friends about some ideas I'm having (currently teaching myself coding) and everyone thinks I'm crazy.

I think your first mistake is letting everyone know your next move. Keep folks in the dark because the fearful ones will influence you. They want you to live a life they are comfortable with. Law 3: Conceal your intentions -48 Laws of Power
 

Choate

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Hi Guys,
2. If I do the business on the side, how should I frame this to my current employer (the basic contract everyone signs says you have to disclose ANY "outside business interests" and they have to approve or decline my request to do it)?

Who the F*ck are these guy's, the government?

Probably but, not me.

I think your first mistake is letting everyone know your next move. Keep folks in the dark because the fearful ones will influence you. They want you to live a life they are comfortable with. Law 3: Conceal your intentions -48 Laws of Power

Re-read the two responses about a few times.

to answer your question, it's a super snobby investment bank that says you can't partake in any outside business activities that may take too much of your time needed for your full-time role with the company... my senior managers are very ridiculous and will probably turn down my request is what worries me.

The honest, correct approach to take is to let them know if you are working on a business outside of work that involves investment banking such as consulting or financial services, since this may present a conflict of interest (aka, just don't do anything related to finance/IB). But this is where the line is drawn. You mentioned creating websites or coding - in that case, I wouldn't even drop a hint as to what you do, because its your life man. You aren't a slave. If you have to miss outings or team get-togethers or whatever to work on your business, just tell them you are catching up with old friends or traveling somewhere with the family.

Who the F*ck are they to tell you how to spend your time outside of work? No man, just no. They are the prime example of slowlane indoctrination and corporate drone creation.

Investment banking has long, tedious hours I assume. If they are stealing 80 hours of the week don't let them dictate what to do with your other 88.
 
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Fortune5ive

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Re-read the two responses about a few times.



The honest, correct approach to take is to let them know if you are working on a business outside of work that involves investment banking such as consulting or financial services, since this may present a conflict of interest (aka, just don't do anything related to finance/IB). But this is where the line is drawn. You mentioned creating websites or coding - in that case, I wouldn't even drop a hint as to what you do, because its your life man. You aren't a slave. If you have to miss outings or team get-togethers or whatever to work on your business, just tell them you are catching up with old friends or traveling somewhere with the family.

Who the F*ck are they to tell you how to spend your time outside of work? No man, just no. They are the prime example of slowlane indoctrination and corporate drone creation.

Investment banking has long, tedious hours I assume. If they are stealing 80 hours of the week don't let them dictate what to do with your other 88.
My comment about concealment was for his family, not his contractual obligations with his employer.
 

rpeck90

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You need to tell us more about your circumstances.

You mention you have neither a spouse or offspring. You didn't mention your age, financial standing (how much money you have saved) or previous experience.

In terms of quitting etc, it's a decision entirely dependent on your circumstances. As a young male, I can survive on barely anything - a $350-$400/mo budget would give me a roof and shittest food ever... but survivable. Hell, I could sleep in the office for all I care. If I had a wife / kid / house, things get much more complicated.

A tactic I would use is to basically ignore your job and focus on learning as much about a business as possible, even during company time. The way to do this is to limit your responsibilities etc of your job. Of course, this becomes increasingly difficult with the commitment your job commands. If necessary, you may be better getting a less endowed job (like MJ's limo thing) whilst you're seeking the best path (coding etc).
 

Choate

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My comment about concealment was for his family, not his contractual obligations with his employer.

Well then my apologies, I misinterpreted because you didn't specify family, but rather said "everyone" and "keep folks in the dark". So thanks for clarifying, although I still support that he should conceal his intentions among his employer as well if his self-employment isn't in a field related to his job.

Because if we are going to be using a Machiavellian, 48 Laws of Power based approach, he should look out for his own best interest first. Brief excerpts from Law 24 and 25, which are very applicable here, state: "The perfect courtier thrives in a world where everything revolves around power and political dexterity. He has mastered the art of indirection; he flatters, yields to superiors, and asserts power over others in the most oblique and graceful manner." and "Do not accept the roles that society foists on you. Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience. Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define if for you."

No point in applying some of the "laws" but not others. And if his side business has nothing to do with his job, he's not treading on ethic or moral grounds by creating a conflict of interest, which are more enforceable than an otherwise overreaching contract.

Another determining variable is, is he an A player at work? If you are the best performer at work and they find out you work on your side business, what are they going to do? Maybe it helps you stay focused at work by not creating major distractions in your side life. If you're slacking and showing up late, and they find out you have a side business, that's not going to look good at all.

Just my 2 cents, not to be construed as legal advice pertaining to your contractual obligations.

I'd personally hire and keep the guy that works on a side business on his free time rather than the one who goes and gets drunk all weekend and drags his a$$ into work 15 minutes late every Monday and Friday.

1) say nothing and just do it
2) quit to work on your business
3) just give up on the fastlane altogether and keep grinding away at the slowlane for another 40 years.

Option 1 seems the best to me. They will either not care, give you shit but allow it, fire you, or sue you (if you are competing directly with them or stealing proprietary information for personal gain, which OP is not doing because he is planning to operate in a different field like web design).
 
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Fortune5ive

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Well then my apologies, I misinterpreted because you didn't specify family, but rather said "everyone" and "keep folks in the dark". So thanks for clarifying, although I still support that he should conceal his intentions among his employer as well if his self-employment isn't in a field related to his job.

Because if we are going to be using a Machiavellian, 48 Laws of Power based approach, he should look out for his own best interest first. Brief excerpts from Law 24 and 25, which are very applicable here, state: "The perfect courtier thrives in a world where everything revolves around power and political dexterity. He has mastered the art of indirection; he flatters, yields to superiors, and asserts power over others in the most oblique and graceful manner." and "Do not accept the roles that society foists on you. Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience. Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define if for you."

No point in applying some of the "laws" but not others. And if his side business has nothing to do with his job, he's not treading on ethic or moral grounds by creating a conflict of interest, which are more enforceable than an otherwise overreaching contract.

Another determining variable is, is he an A player at work? If you are the best performer at work and they find out you work on your side business, what are they going to do? Maybe it helps you stay focused at work by not creating major distractions in your side life. If you're slacking and showing up late, and they find out you have a side business, that's not going to look good at all.

Just my 2 cents, not to be construed as legal advice pertaining to your contractual obligations.

I'd personally hire and keep the guy that works on a side business on his free time rather than the one who goes and gets drunk all weekend and drags his a$$ into work 15 minutes late every Monday and Friday.

1) say nothing and just do it
2) quit to work on your business
3) just give up on the fastlane altogether and keep grinding away at the slowlane for another 40 years.

Option 1 seems the best to me. They will either not care, give you shit but allow it, fire you, or sue you (if you are competing directly with them or stealing proprietary information for personal gain, which OP is not doing because he is planning to operate in a different field like web design).
That's the beauty of the laws...it allows one to pick and choose which laws are appropriate for their situation. None of these laws are tethered together. In fact....I recommend being very selective with these laws as assuming they all fit well with each other can be counterproductive. Again...concealment for family....be frank with employer as that's how he currently keeps food on his table. No need to burn bridges.
 

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That's the beauty of the laws...it allows one to pick and choose which laws are appropriate for their situation. None of these laws are tethered together. In fact....I recommend being very selective with these laws as assuming they all fit well with each other can be counterproductive. Again...concealment for family....be frank with employer as that's how he currently keeps food on his table. No need to burn bridges.

Well...
my senior managers are very ridiculous and will probably turn down my request is what worries me.

Sure, he won't burn bridges, but he won't even be able to make fastlane progress under that contract. Here's what Arnold Schwarzenegger has to say about that:

And of course rule number two is break the rules. We have so many rules in life about everything. I said break the rules not the law, but break the rules. It is impossible to be a maverick or true original if you're too well-behaved and not want to break the rules. You have to think outside the box that's what I believe. After all what is the point of being on this earth if all you want to do is be liked by everyone and avoid trouble. The only way that I ever got any place is by breaking some of the rules."

Its a gray area and we all have differing opinions on it, and I can see where you're coming from. My view is why alert management to your desires if they will say no anyways?
 

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I don't like giving life changing advice, so I'll just say what I'd do from the facts given.

1. Brainstorm business ideas.
2. Find one that adds the most value and form a brief business plan.
2a. Make time and go get some sales.
------ this should take 2-3 weeks total.

3. Put in my two weeks.
4. Move to a sunny state without state income tax (FL, NV, or TX). I already live in Florida.
5. Go 80 hour work week on getting sales because I don't have a source of income and I hate sleeping on concrete.

I'm a big believer in sink or swim. And I wouldn't be sinking in a cushy IB job. I would say I'm gonna start my own business in two weeks... every two weeks until I retire. You might be different.
 
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Get Right

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Best Golden Handcuffs in the business world - Investment Banks.

You try to escape by starting something new and the compliance department will eat your lunch. Heck, you guys can't even recommend a realtor to someone.

The forum can't tell you what to do but I like the fact that you are searching for answers. Search the forum and you will find nuggets of knowledge that might help you form a plan that is right for you. That being said, it will be difficult. Worth it? That's for you to decide.
 

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I don't know what to say about the agreement you sight with your current employer except that I'd run it by a lawyer. In certain states, that clause may not even be enforceable. I'm betting that in California, for example, it isn't. (I don't know that for sure, but the general 'spirit of the law' here in California is to frown quite seriously on clauses like that.) If the clause isn't legal where you live, you can probably safely ignore it, after checking with your lawyer.

In regards to your parents and family, starting and running a business requires a completely different mindset and set of skills than doing pretty much anything else. If you were an astronaut, you wouldn't ask your mom for advice on how to fly a spaceship, so don't expect that she'll give you good advice on running a business. I can't tell you the number of well-meaning friends who offered to help me find a 'stable' job. The worst was one that would have paid $20k/year. I've made more than that rate in my worst months as a business owner.
 

AdamMaxum

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I really like this idea. And trust me I promise you I won't be one of those people who just dabble in these ideas, I'm committed and determined to escape the 9-5 grind.

How do you vet the freelancers (skills, background checks,etc) if you aren't aware of the specifics of web design and SEO? I have a lot more questions too haha but I don't want to write a huge essay of text.

Thanks for the advice man.

NP. I wouldn't get caught in this exact model, there are a lot of them available if you search this forum.

With that said...you vet freelancers in this space by looking at their portfolio -> paying them to do something -> evaluate experience/skills based on the sample of work they performed and if they meet expectations, you have a candidate. Just as important is the freelancers communication skills. Are they responsive/timely? Can they speak English and handle a phone call? People tend to hype you up and then fall off hard.

If you're going to hire someone for something, you should definitely understand the basics. Read about it/learn. SEO is very difficult to hire for because you never know what kind of SEO you're going to get and you have to be aware of red flags. In those situations, past clients/success plays a big factor if you can talk to any.

Anyway, I could go on and on. First thing I'd do is put together a list of services you want to offer businesses and then sell something. Most businesses have as much of a clue as you do right now about their website/online marketing unless they've done marketing in the past. The hardest part for any web dev/design/seo company is getting in front of the decision makers (owner). Whether that's in person or via phone.

Once you sell something, you can use the freelancers you vetted and learn together with your first client. If everything blows up, at least you have a learning experience and can find another client to replace...of course, that's the worst case scenario and can usually be corrected before it happens.
 
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GuitarManDan

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You need to tell us more about your circumstances.

You mention you have neither a spouse or offspring. You didn't mention your age, financial standing (how much money you have saved) or previous experience.

In terms of quitting etc, it's a decision entirely dependent on your circumstances. As a young male, I can survive on barely anything - a $350-$400/mo budget would give me a roof and shittest food ever... but survivable. Hell, I could sleep in the office for all I care. If I had a wife / kid / house, things get much more complicated.

A tactic I would use is to basically ignore your job and focus on learning as much about a business as possible, even during company time. The way to do this is to limit your responsibilities etc of your job. Of course, this becomes increasingly difficult with the commitment your job commands. If necessary, you may be better getting a less endowed job (like MJ's limo thing) whilst you're seeking the best path (coding etc).

Hi Richard,

I recently turned 26, graduated college and have been working in IBanking for almost 4 years so I have a good amount saved up in purely savings. I live in NYC so everything is stupidly expensive though. I honestly see it as a blessing that I absolutely hate this new job / new culture so much because it's really putting a fire under my a$$ to make a change.

I've been reading up a lot about coding and SEO (mentioned in a previous comment).

Thank you for the advice, really appreciate it.
 

GuitarManDan

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Well then my apologies, I misinterpreted because you didn't specify family, but rather said "everyone" and "keep folks in the dark". So thanks for clarifying, although I still support that he should conceal his intentions among his employer as well if his self-employment isn't in a field related to his job.

Because if we are going to be using a Machiavellian, 48 Laws of Power based approach, he should look out for his own best interest first. Brief excerpts from Law 24 and 25, which are very applicable here, state: "The perfect courtier thrives in a world where everything revolves around power and political dexterity. He has mastered the art of indirection; he flatters, yields to superiors, and asserts power over others in the most oblique and graceful manner." and "Do not accept the roles that society foists on you. Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience. Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define if for you."

No point in applying some of the "laws" but not others. And if his side business has nothing to do with his job, he's not treading on ethic or moral grounds by creating a conflict of interest, which are more enforceable than an otherwise overreaching contract.

Another determining variable is, is he an A player at work? If you are the best performer at work and they find out you work on your side business, what are they going to do? Maybe it helps you stay focused at work by not creating major distractions in your side life. If you're slacking and showing up late, and they find out you have a side business, that's not going to look good at all.

Just my 2 cents, not to be construed as legal advice pertaining to your contractual obligations.

I'd personally hire and keep the guy that works on a side business on his free time rather than the one who goes and gets drunk all weekend and drags his a$$ into work 15 minutes late every Monday and Friday.

1) say nothing and just do it
2) quit to work on your business
3) just give up on the fastlane altogether and keep grinding away at the slowlane for another 40 years.

Option 1 seems the best to me. They will either not care, give you shit but allow it, fire you, or sue you (if you are competing directly with them or stealing proprietary information for personal gain, which OP is not doing because he is planning to operate in a different field like web design).

Hi Man,

I'm on a team of 12 people and was rated as the highest rated team member the past year and have gotten nothing but good feedback since I've been working in IBanking.

I really don't know what the consequence is if they find out I started a business and didn't disclose it, but I really don't care honestly. Worst case scenario they lay me off, I have a solid resume and can find another job that has a much better work/life balance while I work on my side business in case I need the extra money while I get set up.
 

GuitarManDan

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Best Golden Handcuffs in the business world - Investment Banks.

You try to escape by starting something new and the compliance department will eat your lunch. Heck, you guys can't even recommend a realtor to someone.

The forum can't tell you what to do but I like the fact that you are searching for answers. Search the forum and you will find nuggets of knowledge that might help you form a plan that is right for you. That being said, it will be difficult. Worth it? That's for you to decide.

Hey man,

I feel very fortunate to be honest that this new job is so miserable because it led me to learn about an area I would've never normally checked out (entrepreneurship). I re-reviewed the policy they have at a global level for all employees and it says obvious facts about financial industry outside employment and conflict of interest... which I also understand, but they throw in you can't be involved in ownership or get compensated for any services that "takes excessive time that is required for your role at the Bank".

I want to quit right now but I want to be more tactical and spend the next week or so learning all I can to decide what my first company/project would be.
 
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NP. I wouldn't get caught in this exact model, there are a lot of them available if you search this forum.

With that said...you vet freelancers in this space by looking at their portfolio -> paying them to do something -> evaluate experience/skills based on the sample of work they performed and if they meet expectations, you have a candidate. Just as important is the freelancers communication skills. Are they responsive/timely? Can they speak English and handle a phone call? People tend to hype you up and then fall off hard.

If you're going to hire someone for something, you should definitely understand the basics. Read about it/learn. SEO is very difficult to hire for because you never know what kind of SEO you're going to get and you have to be aware of red flags. In those situations, past clients/success plays a big factor if you can talk to any.

Anyway, I could go on and on. First thing I'd do is put together a list of services you want to offer businesses and then sell something. Most businesses have as much of a clue as you do right now about their website/online marketing unless they've done marketing in the past. The hardest part for any web dev/design/seo company is getting in front of the decision makers (owner). Whether that's in person or via phone.

Once you sell something, you can use the freelancers you vetted and learn together with your first client. If everything blows up, at least you have a learning experience and can find another client to replace...of course, that's the worst case scenario and can usually be corrected before it happens.

Hey Adam,

I'm definitely going to spend the afternoon today reading a lot on here and just trying to get ideas and get inspiration for what I could go into business in. If I'm organizing freelancers and selling their services, I can do this without setting up an LLC or any kind of business entity to collect the income I receive?

When you first started, did you just do online research to figure out pricing and how much you'd take home?

Thanks
 

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you can't be involved in ownership or get compensated for any services that "takes excessive time that is required for your role at the Bank".
IMO, this is quite easy to comply with and still start you own business.

What exactly does "time that is required for your role at the bank" mean??? That means you still have to show up at your J.O.B. and do your work. That's just normal...do they J.O.B. they are paying you for.

Strangely enough, it doesn't say you can't blow some of the time for which they are paying you, but that you can't waste "excessive" time in another area.
scratch-head03-idea-animated-animat.gif%7Ec200
 

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Hey Adam,

I'm definitely going to spend the afternoon today reading a lot on here and just trying to get ideas and get inspiration for what I could go into business in. If I'm organizing freelancers and selling their services, I can do this without setting up an LLC or any kind of business entity to collect the income I receive?

When you first started, did you just do online research to figure out pricing and how much you'd take home?

Thanks

As for starting an LLC, I wouldn't wait that long but I wouldn't create one immediately. I'd say, once you actually generate sales, then create it. The only issue would be for tax purposes writing off expenses that you incur before creating the LLC, but online businesses don't have many expenses until you start paying contractors and generating sales (unless your building an expensive site or running high marketing costs). Take my advice with a grain of salt as I'm not a law guy. I just see a lot of people create LLCs as an action fake and blow the $300 creating the LLC and then nothing ever happens or materializes so it was just a waste....which is why I say wait until you're actually making or spending real money. Creating one takes 15 mins at Legalzoom or wherever. Once you get the papers, go setup a business bank account and funnel all biz expenses thru it to keep track of properly and connect quickbooks to it.

For research - find companies who are selling what you are going to sell and see what they sell and how much they sell it for. For SEO companies or websites, act like your an interested customer and hear them pitch you and give you rates if you really want to get some numbers. If you go into digital services I will tell you the rates vary wildly so you'll see people selling stuff from $100 to thousands. It basically comes down to convincing a business or customer you're worth the value you're selling. I sell websites for 3-4k and marketing for 600-4k month, but we have a list of clients who are happy to back up the rates (aka, convince businesses to spend the $$) .

If you get into digital services, I also recommend going 'niche'. Going niche allows you to become an "expert" in a particular industry or segment of work. Pick one with clients who have bigger pockets. Example, we specialize in legal because they got money. We'll still work with other types of companies but it allows us to entice lawyers/firms and build credibility in sales pitches. Same thing goes with web design or development. Pick a niche inside those (example: legal website design or PPC design or landing page design)

the last part is figuring out how much your contractors are going to cost you...again, put out some jobs on upwork and find someone US based who does what you're looking for and price it out. Give them a test task and evaluate. Repeat until you have a solid group to choose from and then start selling and see what happens. Selling digital services is not easy to do. It's where most people give up.
 
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As for starting an LLC, I wouldn't wait that long but I wouldn't create one immediately. I'd say, once you actually generate sales, then create it. The only issue would be for tax purposes writing off expenses that you incur before creating the LLC, but online businesses don't have many expenses until you start paying contractors and generating sales (unless your building an expensive site or running high marketing costs). Take my advice with a grain of salt as I'm not a law guy. I just see a lot of people create LLCs as an action fake and blow the $300 creating the LLC and then nothing ever happens or materializes so it was just a waste....which is why I say wait until you're actually making or spending real money. Creating one takes 15 mins at Legalzoom or wherever. Once you get the papers, go setup a business bank account and funnel all biz expenses thru it to keep track of properly and connect quickbooks to it.

For research - find companies who are selling what you are going to sell and see what they sell and how much they sell it for. For SEO companies or websites, act like your an interested customer and hear them pitch you and give you rates if you really want to get some numbers. If you go into digital services I will tell you the rates vary wildly so you'll see people selling stuff from $100 to thousands. It basically comes down to convincing a business or customer you're worth the value you're selling. I sell websites for 3-4k and marketing for 600-4k month, but we have a list of clients who are happy to back up the rates (aka, convince businesses to spend the $$) .

If you get into digital services, I also recommend going 'niche'. Going niche allows you to become an "expert" in a particular industry or segment of work. Pick one with clients who have bigger pockets. Example, we specialize in legal because they got money. We'll still work with other types of companies but it allows us to entice lawyers/firms and build credibility in sales pitches. Same thing goes with web design or development. Pick a niche inside those (example: legal website design or PPC design or landing page design)

the last part is figuring out how much your contractors are going to cost you...again, put out some jobs on upwork and find someone US based who does what you're looking for and price it out. Give them a test task and evaluate. Repeat until you have a solid group to choose from and then start selling and see what happens. Selling digital services is not easy to do. It's where most people give up.

Hey Adam,

I saw this advice somewhere else here on the forums, but it's actually amazing. If you google "[random industry] + [your city]" you can scroll down and see what year their website was created. So many companies by me with a lot of money have websites that are 5-10 years old that look awful.

I'm currently working on the Udemy course to learn practical applications for HTML+CSS. Even if it's not what I end up doing, I think it's really interesting and good to challenge myself to learn more instead of just getting complacent. I'm also working on updating my resume to see if I could land a job that has a better culture that is easier to work remotely and have more flexibility.

The goal is to ultimately just focus on my business (still very up in the air what I want to do) but I think moving to a job with a more laid back culture will give me more time and freedom to work on a my business on the side.

Thanks for your advice, really appreciate it.
 

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Hey Adam,

I saw this advice somewhere else here on the forums, but it's actually amazing. If you google "[random industry] + [your city]" you can scroll down and see what year their website was created. So many companies by me with a lot of money have websites that are 5-10 years old that look awful.

I'm currently working on the Udemy course to learn practical applications for HTML+CSS. Even if it's not what I end up doing, I think it's really interesting and good to challenge myself to learn more instead of just getting complacent. I'm also working on updating my resume to see if I could land a job that has a better culture that is easier to work remotely and have more flexibility.

The goal is to ultimately just focus on my business (still very up in the air what I want to do) but I think moving to a job with a more laid back culture will give me more time and freedom to work on a my business on the side.

Thanks for your advice, really appreciate it.

Definitely. There's still plenty of space for web design/development....it's just getting those companies with crap websites to take action and create a new website (the sale process) that becomes the difficult part of the process. Good luck on your journey!!
 

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Hi Guys,

I've been in investment banking for about 4 years (3 years at one company, almost 1 year at this new job/company). This new job/role is really driving me insane due to how toxic the culture and people are. I happened to stumble upon The Millionaire Fastlane and I've never been so hopeful before that there's something else out there.

I've told some family/friends about some ideas I'm having (currently teaching myself coding) and everyone thinks I'm crazy. My parents and brother are texting me almost every day saying how I have such a great job and everything is going so well and I shouldn't give up all of the hard work I've done.

I have a few questions and could greatly use your opinion about what my next steps should be to escape the slowlane and start my own business:

  1. Does it make more sense to quit ASAP or to start a business on the side and see how that works out?
  2. If I do the business on the side, how should I frame this to my current employer (the basic contract everyone signs says you have to disclose ANY "outside business interests" and they have to approve or decline my request to do it)?
  3. Has anyone on here been in a similar situation to me? If so, what are you doing now and what would you recommend?
Ever since I read the book, every single day has been so much damn harder to stand being at work. I feel like I'm dying a little bit more each day and it's so damn depressing. I just need to escape and try my hand at owning a business. I know I'd be fine working really hard and diligently if I was in control.

Thank you guys, really appreciate any feedback here.

1, 3: I was in biglaw for over seven years so I am somewhat familiar with your predicament. (It's not as intense as investment banking, but I worked in bankruptcy litigation where we were often working 24/7 for long periods of time). I think the answer depends on your income and your risk tolerance. If you're clearing, say, 300K after tax and somewhat cautious, then I think it's not a bad idea to stick it out for 2-3 years. Presumably you have been saving up and this would allow you to hit around a mil, which is what I consider to confer a significant amount of freedom. Keep in mind that these grueling situations are 100x better when you have an exit plan, but nearly intolerable when there is no exit plan in sight. On the other hand, if you're clearing something like 120K after tax, then I am not sure it is worth waiting around.

2. Regarding "outside business interest" -- is this a defined term within the contract? If so, what's the precise definition?
 
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1, 3: I was in biglaw for over seven years so I am somewhat familiar with your predicament. (It's not as intense as investment banking, but I worked in bankruptcy litigation where we were often working 24/7 for long periods of time). I think the answer depends on your income and your risk tolerance. If you're clearing, say, 300K after tax and somewhat cautious, then I think it's not a bad idea to stick it out for 2-3 years. Presumably you have been saving up and this would allow you to hit around a mil, which is what I consider to confer a significant amount of freedom. Keep in mind that these grueling situations are 100x better when you have an exit plan, but nearly intolerable when there is no exit plan in sight. On the other hand, if you're clearing something like 120K after tax, then I am not sure it is worth waiting around.

2. Regarding "outside business interest" -- is this a defined term within the contract? If so, what's the precise definition?

Hey Radagast,

Right now I'm making very very low 6 figures before tax (way less than $120k after tax) for total compensation, so nowhere near 300k/year or 1 mil in savings.

For #2, yes, there's a global policy for all employees that you agree to when you sign your employment contract. Basically states that you have to disclose any type of compensation or outside business involvement. To give you an example, they made me move my personal eTrade acct to their trading platform because they want to know EVERYTHING. It includes examples that typically if you are involved or start a business in the financial services, it will almost always get turned down.. but if it's outside the financial services, it will usually get approved with a big "BUT" if it falls into a few categories (only one that could screw me over is the timing component and I have no idea who would even approve this if I put it in the system, but my management are very dramatic about the smallest things, so I'm assuming they'd have a field day with this).

Thanks
 

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Hey Radagast,

Right now I'm making very very low 6 figures before tax (way less than $120k after tax) for total compensation, so nowhere near 300k/year or 1 mil in savings.

For #2, yes, there's a global policy for all employees that you agree to when you sign your employment contract. Basically states that you have to disclose any type of compensation or outside business involvement. To give you an example, they made me move my personal eTrade acct to their trading platform because they want to know EVERYTHING. It includes examples that typically if you are involved or start a business in the financial services, it will almost always get turned down.. but if it's outside the financial services, it will usually get approved with a big "BUT" if it falls into a few categories (only one that could screw me over is the timing component and I have no idea who would even approve this if I put it in the system, but my management are very dramatic about the smallest things, so I'm assuming they'd have a field day with this).

Thanks

GMD:

Sounds like a tough gig. Even using slowlane criteria, there's a strong argument for switching gears to a job that you like (and which, to boot, could afford more time and freedom for your side projects). TLDR; I like the idea proposed by AdamMaxum and think that you should also think about a job change as well.

Ultimately this is a decision that only you can make but I would point to the following factors:

1. You are unhappy with the work culture and it's unclear whether you are getting enough out of this bargain. If you are going to bargain away a huge chunk of your youth on making someone else richer, you should either be compensated in some combination of (a) money and/or (b) useful skills. With the caveat that I am not very familiar with IB and don't know the nature of your role or what type of IB you do, this job does not appear to be moving you toward either financial freedom or the type of skills that directly relate to the work that you eventually want to do. Heck, many of my colleagues bailed out of biglaw after a few years even though they were making 250K+ pretax for similar reasons. I do not know a single one who regretted that decision (and this is despite the fact that virtually none of them had any entrepreneurial aspirations).

2. Relatedly, do you want to do what your bosses do? If you look at what your boss's life, you can get a general sense of what the best case scenario is. Do you want to take on the mantle of your supervisor, or would that be a mediocre outcome for you? For myself, it was extremely clear: when offered the chance to become heir apparent to our department head, I declined because I was not interested in that outcome -- I knew I could never get passionate about it. Even money can't fully compensate for this.

3. The world is moving away from traditional notions of prestige. You mentioned that your family and friends think you'd be crazy to give up your gig. Part of me thinks that this is because they are proud that you have accomplished that (and rightfully so). My family generally felt the same way about having a lawyer in the family. But things are changing fast now. At my workplace, for example, programmers are seen as gods. You can start updating their perceptions by showing your friends articles about this change -- e.g. Google self-driving car engineers leaving their jobs because they got too much FU money.

4. You don't have any passengers in your car. You don't have any significant support obligations that might otherwise cause one to think twice.

5. Contracts are enforceable to the extent they are enforceable. This is not legal advice but I try to take a real-world view of contracts. Starting your own competing business, for instance, or anything having to deal with securities is likely a serious no-no, not only due to the contract but also securities laws regarding inside information. However, does this contract mean that you can't sell your used watch on Ebay? What about your watch collection, and maybe your friend's used watch collection as well? How would anyone find out if you were discreet? What would they do if they found out? If it sounds ridiculous, sometimes it is.

Best of luck to you, and please keep us posted on your adventures.

--Grek
 
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GMD:

Sounds like a tough gig. Even using slowlane criteria, there's a strong argument for switching gears to a job that you like (and which, to boot, could afford more time and freedom for your side projects). TLDR; I like the idea proposed by AdamMaxum and think that you should also think about a job change as well.

Ultimately this is a decision that only you can make but I would point to the following factors:

1. You are unhappy with the work culture and it's unclear whether you are getting enough out of this bargain. If you are going to bargain away a huge chunk of your youth on making someone else richer, you should either be compensated in some combination of (a) money and/or (b) useful skills. With the caveat that I am not very familiar with IB and don't know the nature of your role or what type of IB you do, this job does not appear to be moving you toward either financial freedom or the type of skills that directly relate to the work that you eventually want to do. Heck, many of my colleagues bailed out of biglaw after a few years even though they were making 250K+ pretax for similar reasons. I do not know a single one who regretted that decision (and this is despite the fact that virtually none of them had any entrepreneurial aspirations).

2. Relatedly, do you want to do what your bosses do? If you look at what your boss's life, you can get a general sense of what the best case scenario is. Do you want to take on the mantle of your supervisor, or would that be a mediocre outcome for you? For myself, it was extremely clear: when offered the chance to become heir apparent to our department head, I declined because I was not interested in that outcome -- I knew I could never get passionate about it. Even money can't fully compensate for this.

3. The world is moving away from traditional notions of prestige. You mentioned that your family and friends think you'd be crazy to give up your gig. Part of me thinks that this is because they are proud that you have accomplished that (and rightfully so). My family generally felt the same way about having a lawyer in the family. But things are changing fast now. At my workplace, for example, programmers are seen as gods. You can start updating their perceptions by showing your friends articles about this change -- e.g. Google self-driving car engineers leaving their jobs because they got too much FU money.

4. You don't have any passengers in your car. You don't have any significant support obligations that might otherwise cause one to think twice.

5. Contracts are enforceable to the extent they are enforceable. This is not legal advice but I try to take a real-world view of contracts. Starting your own competing business, for instance, or anything having to deal with securities is likely a serious no-no, not only due to the contract but also securities laws regarding inside information. However, does this contract mean that you can't sell your used watch on Ebay? What about your watch collection, and maybe your friend's used watch collection as well? How would anyone find out if you were discreet? What would they do if they found out? If it sounds ridiculous, sometimes it is.

Best of luck to you, and please keep us posted on your adventures.

--Grek

Thanks for the response here. Reading this made me even more committed to my decision.

1. Agreed, the culture is very toxic and everyone is stressed out / miserable beyond belief in my department.

2. I would absolutely never want to do what my boss does. He basically gets hounded 24/7 by the big boss (who is a huge micro manager) and he is always too busy / too stressed to even speak with.

3. At the end of the day, it's my decision and while I respect my friends/family, I have to do what's right for me and not stay in a job I hate just because it's the outside/normal perspective of the "right" thing to do.

4. Absolutely, and I really have always loved the idea of just moving to a city/place where I don't know anyone and figuring it out.

5. I really have no idea what they'd do, but like you said, worst thing that happens is I get fired and my plan is to leave sometime soon anyway. As I don't get paid out for my vacation time if I quit, I'm going to make sure I at least use my 3-4 weeks left for free money.

I'm taking a few days off this week to clear my head and to be able to spend more time learning to code / researching entrepreneurial options.
 

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