In a restrictive contract. Should I leave or stay?

[EmotionEngine]

I'm currently working on software (a game) but I work in that very same industry. Like most in my industry we sign a PIIA agreement which essentially makes anything we create up for grabs by the company we're currently employed for. This prevents moonlighting and all that.

While this wasn't a problem many years in the past, it is now that I'm an entrepreneur. I spoke to multiple people in the company including legal and it's ok for me to create and sell anything on company time. It was relayed to me that the company doesn't care until I'm REALLY successful (millions). Then it's a different ball game. I could have a lawsuit on my hands. They could take everything. It's quite a powerful weapon by a corporation.

With that said, I thought I'd poke the Fastlane hivemind and see what you fine people think. Should I leave this company next year or should I keep stay employed and keep on developing and release my product? If I do this at the start of 2023 I'll have enough money to survive the year, form the company and keep developing for a release that year.

 

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[WJK]

I'm currently working on software (a game) but I work in that very same industry. Like most in my industry we sign a PIIA agreement which essentially makes anything we create up for grabs by the company we're currently employed for. This prevents moonlighting and all that.

While this wasn't a problem many years in the past, it is now that I'm an entrepreneur. I spoke to multiple people in the company including legal and it's ok for me to create and sell anything on company time. It was relayed to me that the company doesn't care until I'm REALLY successful (millions). Then it's a different ball game. I could have a lawsuit on my hands. They could take everything. It's quite a powerful weapon by a corporation.

With that said, I thought I'd poke the Fastlane hivemind and see what you fine people think. Should I leave this company next year or should I keep stay employed and keep on developing and release my product? If I do this at the start of 2023 I'll have enough money to survive the year, form the company and keep developing for a release that year.

It sounds like you are dancing on a high wire. You obviously know the risks of staying. Only you know what your risk tolerance is.
Ask yourself:
How long does your contract reach? Is there a non-competition period of time in it that extends past your employment?
Can you negotiate with the company?
You might be able to set a dollar figure to limit their future bite.
You might be able to renegotiate your contract to exclude your current project. That depends on how much they need you and you need them.
Is the risk you're taking worth it?
Are they aware of your current side gig?
What is the corporate history of going after employees?

Only you can make this decision.

 

[Boogie]

Several years ago, I worked for a tech startup. I had 10's of thousands of shares in the company. We had about 400 million in investment dollars. I mentioned to another director in that company that I was going to come out with an unrelated product. He said, you know if you do that we (the company) will own it, right? We all signed the paper when we joined.

So, I ended up losing out on the opportunity since it was a hot, well capitalized company I had an interest in. Ultimately, the CEO dorked up the opportunity and my shares expired worthless. But in any case, it was stated to me that I didn't own what I had come up with.

Later, I went to a large credit card company you've heard of as a contractor, not an employee. Security gave us our introduction to security practices and intellectual property there. The head of security came in and said, if you write a book or movie, we'll in the publishing or movie business, if you come up with a cure for cancer, we're in the cancer business. Anything you create will be owned by the company.

Since they already know you've developed it during this time, will they have a claim if it successful after you leave?

Speaking of all of this, John Carmack with through a highly publicized similar issue:

'Doom' co-creator John Carmack ends legal fight with ZeniMax

The messy legal battle between Id Software co-founder and Oculus CTO John Carmack and ZeniMax is over. Carmack tweeted that his "personal legal disputes" had ended, with ZeniMax having "fully satisfied their [sic] obligations" to him. Consequently, the pair have dropped their lawsuit and...

www.engadget.com

Good luck in your pursuit.

 

[Johnny boy]

1. anonymously owned corporation
2. shut the F*ck up to anyone you know about your company
3. do business under a different name or purely under the company name (unless filing legal documents or things like that, private anyways)
4. once you leave, start a new company and just move everything over to the new company without a paper trail. "Oh this company was created once I left it's not under the contract anymore". And there's likely 0 evidence to prove otherwise.

Do NOT let overthinking and made up scenarios stop you before you even begin. The only thing you need to do is keep your mouth shut and stay out of the same industry. Come back here when you've gotten some solid money rolling in and you've been keeping your mouth shut the whole time. That's when the planning can start.

 

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[peddletothemetal]

Assuming you're not somewhere like California that (rightly) voids such clauses to the extent you use all your own equipment in your own time, you could explain the situation and ask them for a waiver (in writing).

This is all assuming you've read the clause right and it does mean while employed rather than during work hours etc.

The whole point is that they only care if you strike it rich, which is the only reason you care about starting it in the first place, so if they won't waive that, not much other choice but finding a new job with an employer that doesn't ask you to sign your life away.


I'm not a lawyer; do your own research etc

 

[EmotionEngine]

Several years ago, I worked for a tech startup. I had 10's of thousands of shares in the company. We had about 400 million in investment dollars. I mentioned to another director in that company that I was going to come out with an unrelated product. He said, you know if you do that we (the company) will own it, right? We all signed the paper when we joined.

Oh man that is eerily similar to my situation. Thanks for sharing.

 

[RussRussman18]

1. anonymously owned corporation
2. shut the f*ck up to anyone you know about your company
3. do business under a different name or purely under the company name (unless filing legal documents or things like that, private anyways)
4. once you leave, start a new company and just move everything over to the new company without a paper trail. "Oh this company was created once I left it's not under the contract anymore". And there's likely 0 evidence to prove otherwise.

Do NOT let overthinking and made up scenarios stop you before you even begin. The only thing you need to do is keep your mouth shut and stay out of the same industry. Come back here when you've gotten some solid money rolling in and you've been keeping your mouth shut the whole time. That's when the planning can start.

This is the answer

The youtube channel "mental outlaw" has every resource you need to do business anonymously. Learn OPSEC and get to work. F*ck em

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR_U0G-QGA0

 

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[peddletothemetal]

So just on the "just keep it secret" plan above^, on what planet do you think, if you have some multimillion dollar break-through, are you not going to raise the attention of your previous companies owners, if you signed such a clause? Just no one will notice if you do some clever stuff?

Why did your previous companies owners go into business, out of the good of the employees? Or to get rich? And if they've heard you've gotten rich, and they could plausibly claim it all based on you having started it while employed under them, they're just going to ignore that?

Especially if you're in the US, they'll sue first and ask questions later, and their lawyers will dredge anything clever you've done up during discovery. And it's usually a 6 year limit to claim or thereabouts. You're not smarter at what other people do for a living.

 

[Kevin88660]

I'm currently working on software (a game) but I work in that very same industry. Like most in my industry we sign a PIIA agreement which essentially makes anything we create up for grabs by the company we're currently employed for. This prevents moonlighting and all that.

While this wasn't a problem many years in the past, it is now that I'm an entrepreneur. I spoke to multiple people in the company including legal and it's ok for me to create and sell anything on company time. It was relayed to me that the company doesn't care until I'm REALLY successful (millions). Then it's a different ball game. I could have a lawsuit on my hands. They could take everything. It's quite a powerful weapon by a corporation.

With that said, I thought I'd poke the Fastlane hivemind and see what you fine people think. Should I leave this company next year or should I keep stay employed and keep on developing and release my product? If I do this at the start of 2023 I'll have enough money to survive the year, form the company and keep developing for a release that year.

Generally "good problems" are not too much of a concern, like what if you business can't scale from 7-8 digit or what if you are so rich that some people want something from you.

It is more about balancing the risk and probability. They still pay you the money that will need to bootstrap. How could they prove that you created it?

If you dad created it and you bought that patent from him for 1 dollar how does that go?

Professional legal advice might be something you can think about at this stage.

 

[Rabby]

Just adding to some of the other answers. Personally, I hate these clauses. I've written into my articles of incorporation that the company will never require ownership of employee's personally developed IP, and will not interfere with people finding employment elsewhere (broad non-competes, etc),etc., with only the required exceptions to protect my own IP from direct theft. I've also red-lined contracts with billion dollar companies, as a contracting entity, and told them if they wanted our help they could send their legal team on an errand and sign a simple, fair agreement that doesn't threaten my future livelihood.

So three things...

1) Conditions like this are negotiable. Use that. Even if you live with the contract you're in for a while longer, don't let the next group of slickers convince you "oh that's just the way it is, it's normal." Leeches would like you to believe it's normal to suck your blood, too.

2) These are just contracts. A contract dispute does not mean you did something wrong, like breaking a law. You can win a contract dispute. You can win or settle a non-compete action. Employer contracts routinely have things in them that the law will not enforce, even things that are explicitly forbidden in law, and a contract does not triumph over law. There are contract lawyers and employment lawyers who, if you look around for reasonable ones, can advise you on winning disputes, or at least mitigating and settling them.

3) Considering practicalities, @Johnny boy is spot on. If you have to work for the vampires, avoid telling them about your off-the-job ideas and projects. Taking it a step further, @#$% these vampires, they don't own your time and thoughts and labor off the job. Even if a contract says they do, how far can you let that go? If you remodel your house on the weekends, do they own it? Don't believe corporate people when they tell you what "they own." They would like to tell you they own everything. Understand what the contract says, find out what can actually be enforced (hint: the answer is not consistent, and depends on whether people put up a fight), and take whatever measures you can reasonably take now, without becoming inactive from analysis. If not talking about it at the office is the only thing you have the bandwidth for, fine. Never stop doing the things you need to do for yourself, never let corporate BS intimidate you into inaction.

Generally speaking, I would treat any organization that places limits on my personal success as hostile. We're not talking about you stealing something from them... they're claiming that they have the right to your property and time and ideas without even paying you. They are a threat, an adversary, because they have aligned themselves against you. They did this when they let their legal and risk and HR people take over the human relationships, and lost sight of the positive culture they might have otherwise developed. So keep your distance, and don't trust the toxic system they have set up against you.

 

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[Rabby]

So just on the "just keep it secret" plan above^, on what planet do you think, if you have some multimillion dollar break-through, are you not going to raise the attention of your previous companies owners, if you signed such a clause? Just no one will notice if you do some clever stuff?

Why did your previous companies owners go into business, out of the good of the employees? Or to get rich? And if they've heard you've gotten rich, and they could plausibly claim it all based on you having started it while employed under them, they're just going to ignore that?

Especially if you're in the US, they'll sue first and ask questions later, and their lawyers will dredge anything clever you've done up during discovery. And it's usually a 6 year limit to claim or thereabouts. You're not smarter at what other people do for a living.

Heh. Well that's cynical. I'm an employer in the US, and if my employee starts a business, I would like the first opportunity to invest, not to steal their property. And yes, I would be glad they created an opportunity that makes them richer (I know this from experience), because that's how the world gets better. If someone advised me to steal work from my employees that they did off the job, "because I can" by making them sign adversarial contracts, I would fire the advisor. Owning a business shouldn't make you a dirtbag.

 

[EmotionEngine]

Heh. Well that's cynical. I'm an employer in the US, and if my employee starts a business, I would like the first opportunity to invest, not to steal their property. And yes, I would be glad they created an opportunity that makes them richer (I know this from experience), because that's how the world gets better. If someone advised me to steal work from my employees that they did off the job, "because I can" by making them sign adversarial contracts, I would fire the advisor. Owning a business shouldn't make you a dirtbag.

I think the same way (although I'm obviously not an employer yet.) Why not just add a "Right of First Refusal" for things that's not blatantly stealing a prior companies work? Mine isn't I wrote all the code, create art, animation, and design myself. If the contract had that in it, I'd gladly partner with my current employer because I don't hate my job even though it is slowlane and scripted AF. Creating allies not enemies.

 

[Rabby]

I think the same way (although I'm obviously not an employer yet.) Why not just add a "Right of First Refusal" for things that's not blatantly stealing a prior companies work? Mine isn't I wrote all the code, create art, animation, and design myself. If the contract had that in it, I'd gladly partner with my current employer because I don't hate my job even though it is slowlane and scripted AF. Creating allies not enemies.

Even a "right of refusal" isn't needed because who are they going to come to for investment? Some guys in fancy suits? Or someone they already know and trust, and who they've worked with? The fancy suit guys would not be my first choice, although I acknowledge a good suit is high art. Just doesn't make me trust someone.

 

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[jdm667]

Your company is saying that to scare you (and other employees).

Most people will hear that and not bother to build a business if they think the company will take it away. That means the company now has nice, loyal employees who have no self employment options and will not become competitors.

I would just do it - under an anonymous XYZ Corp like @Johnny boy suggested.

Most likely, they will never even know it was you.

Even if they find out, they might not bother to go after you.

Even if they do, you can always settle out of court for 50% or less. Then, worst case scenario, you only have 50% of a 7-figure company. I like those odds.

 

[RussRussman18]

So just on the "just keep it secret" plan above^, on what planet do you think, if you have some multimillion dollar break-through, are you not going to raise the attention of your previous companies owners, if you signed such a clause? Just no one will notice if you do some clever stuff?

Why did your previous companies owners go into business, out of the good of the employees? Or to get rich? And if they've heard you've gotten rich, and they could plausibly claim it all based on you having started it while employed under them, they're just going to ignore that?

Especially if you're in the US, they'll sue first and ask questions later, and their lawyers will dredge anything clever you've done up during discovery. And it's usually a 6 year limit to claim or thereabouts. You're not smarter at what other people do for a living.

OK boomer, get back to us when you learn how a TOR node works, and explain to us how corporate lawyers can do what the FBI can't

 

[ekateriv]

Similar situation except working on something outside of the current company's line of business. They ask me to report only if I start something within the area of their work, but technically my contract says that they own everything. I figured that they're not the type of org to go after their employees unless I'm directly using their trade secrets or benefitting from my association with them, so I'll take my chances and quit only when I have to. This may not be the case for you.
In your scenario, I'd probably go stealth mode and quit whenever there's some tangible traction (users, $$$, whatever) that you can decide on now. Statistically speaking, chances are this will not be the next big thing (check the thread on how many failures before success), but in case it is.. You don't want to invest too much of your time and resources into it only to make something a huge success so that they get too tempted by whatever it is that you've built on the side.
Remember the long game is to become a successful individual who is skilled at creating value. Even if your current employers kill your first business, they can't take those skills/learnings away from you.

 

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[WJK]

So just on the "just keep it secret" plan above^, on what planet do you think, if you have some multimillion dollar break-through, are you not going to raise the attention of your previous companies owners, if you signed such a clause? Just no one will notice if you do some clever stuff?

Why did your previous companies owners go into business, out of the good of the employees? Or to get rich? And if they've heard you've gotten rich, and they could plausibly claim it all based on you having started it while employed under them, they're just going to ignore that?

Especially if you're in the US, they'll sue first and ask questions later, and their lawyers will dredge anything clever you've done up during discovery. And it's usually a 6 year limit to claim or thereabouts. You're not smarter at what other people do for a living.

I agree. You are playing on a well-worn turf. I don't think you would want to hide all of your life. Looking over your shoulder does NOT sound like too much fun. They know their agreement inside and out. They are a bigger fish than you. They will notice you and what would be your defense? I didn't know what I was signing? I forgot? I didn't take that agreement seriously -- it's just boilerplate anyway? Who me -- poor little 'ol me?
All of those excuses sound pretty lame to me.

 

[peddletothemetal]

OK boomer, get back to us when you learn how a TOR node works, and explain to us how corporate lawyers can do what the FBI can't

Millenial; that's "rebuttal" that proves the interlocutor right.

You want to vomit whatever word salad pops into your head onto the internet and pretend it makes you somehow above things or the ideas in your head above gutter-level. And that's OK, it's an extremely popular and commonplace sentiment. But always remember that as you do so, you're still a nothing and you need to fix that. That's all.

 

[Rabby]

Whew, I feel like it's getting hot in here. I'll just open this window and let some air in!

Ah, refreshing. Nothing like a cool breeze on your skin to make the day more enjoyable

 

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[BizyDad]

We're talking about launching a game. Let's not make mountains out of mole hills.

You're in the gaming industry. So you know there are thousands of games launched every year. What are the odds that your game actually takes off to the point that your current employer comes after you? How many games a year actually hit a million dollars in revenue, much less profit?

To me this is a simple issue.

If you're confident that you're sitting on the next big thing, then quit. Go make your millions. We're rooting for you.

But the fact that you haven't quit and aren't sure about it tells me you're not that confident. So your idea is good, but it's not generational wealth level good.

So launch it asap. Don't be dumb and brag about it at work. Heck don't spend any work time or product on it at all, just to be safe.

The game will get some players, people will have fun, but no lawsuits are getting filed (unless the lawyers were lying, but you could totally trust their lawyers right? Sounds legit.)

Best case, it will be able to support you enough to quit your job. And then you tell them you quit your job to go work for a startup gaming company. Not that you have to tell them anything at all, but it's sus if you don't.

Do you think it'll support you enough to start hiring other coders? I suspect you're not confident it's going to get there.

That's not bad news. Your company doesn't care if you have a side hustle in gaming, so launch your game and make some side money asap. Don't wait till next year. Create two income streams (salary and gaming revenue).

And worst case scenario, if it does blow up, you'll always be the guy that created it. Worst case isn't all that bad, even if they "steal" it all from you (which they won't). You could come up with other ideas. You can come up with other games. You could negotiate a huge raise. You could go get a better paying job somewhere else. You could negotiate that they continue to run your game build it and grow it, and you just take a passive X% and go travel the world.

Of course, if you're the guy that invented a multi-million dollar game, I'm sure it'd be "easy" to raise capital to launch your next venture.

Just some food for thought.

I spoke to multiple people in the company including legal and it's ok for me to create and sell anything on company time. It was relayed to me that the company doesn't care until...

If there is a next time, get this in writing, at least an email. Or record the phone call. This isn't exactly a smoking gun, but every little bit in your favor helps.

Hope this helps.