Cryptocurrency a scam?

[LittleWolfie]

lock chain technology is OPEN source and FREEE which ANYONE can utilize. Block Chain Technology is great and will have an impact on technology which Belfort

I totally agree with that. Trademarkes wouldn't matter if you believe in the technology any more than cannonial or apple's do FreeBsd and debian are still around. It would be the patent. However you totally can buy a stake in blockchain technology. TCP/IP is open source, but companies that built routers still make money(more and more, as IoT takes off)


CISCO and Rackspace's future look very bright indeed.

 

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[Chinobey]

This wrong, tether is a complete scam.

Yes tether has had a lot of controversy over whether or not it was actually being backed up by the dollar to my knowledge this has not actually been proven? So as I see it there is potential for it to be a scam but if everything is legit and clean as they claim then it is not a scam at all.

 

[TinyTim]

You said top 25 are not a scam. That top 25 includes tether which is a scam. So therefore the top 25 are not scam free. Most companies believe in blockchain not crypto, you seem to be confusing the two. It's not uncommon in tech. It's similar to conflaitng an invement in domains and Domain Name servers. One gives investors a stake in Pets.com - Wikipedia the other gives them a stake in Cisco Systems - Wikipedia

Which of those two would you prefer to own?

I didn't say that about the top 25. Wrong person. 99% of projects are indeed worthless.

I know that private blockchains don't use cryptocurrency. And many companies are running their own private blockchain - fantastic!

But, companies are also just starting to use PUBLIC blockchain that uses crypto. Not small companies either, but Fortune 500 companies.

 

[LittleWolfie]

I didn't say that about the top 25. Wrong person. 99% of projects are indeed worthless.
.

My Bad. Sorry for the mixup

 

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[ShadyDave]

I don't believe that bitcoin is a scam because it was made to be an alternative currency, not an investment. That being said though, most other cryptos are likely to be scams.

As for what others say about it though, I wouldn't trust anyone. Do your own research, as others likely have their own agenda. If the investment looks promising then maybe try it.

 

[Sadik]

Wow, this thread went downhill very quickly.

 

[AimForTheMoon]

Wow, this thread went downhill very quickly.

A common thread trend: Bitcoin -> Blockchain -> Buffett -> Belfort ->Tether -> /end-thread

But seriously, I'm a lurker on here for a while, and ditched the slow lane for blockchain startup.
I welcome any questions.

If I may weigh in on this thread.

The biggest misconception is first, thinking bitcoin and blockchain are the same thing. They are very different.
The next is thinking every crypto is a scam. This is false. Digital currencies will play a big role in the world in a few ways at first, and then more widely later on. Adoption will first see pure blockchain implementations. Following this will be the application uses.

Most of the negative stories around blockchain are the headlines in the news, yet a lot of the positive developments get overseen. Such as major corporations investing in and using blockchain. Major banks and governments implementing various support for the new industry.

I would agree that likely over 90% of the blockchain startups will fail. But I would be willing to take a bet with anyone that in the near future, we will all have our lives touched by blockchain in some positive way.

 

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[Not_That_MD]

You said top 25 are not a scam. That top 25 includes tether which is a scam. So therefore the top 25 are not scam free. Most companies believe in blockchain not crypto, you seem to be confusing the two. It's not uncommon in tech. It's similar to conflaitng an invement in domains and Domain Name servers. One gives investors a stake in Pets.com - Wikipedia the other gives them a stake in Cisco Systems - Wikipedia

Which of those two would you prefer to own?

Nevertheless, people will buy into the term "blockchain/crypto" and use it interchangeably. Because who cares, right, it brings money, lot of, and fast! The moment masses flock and run into something they not understand, the thing, even if it's completely legit (IMHO, blockchain is), will attract a lot of scam and a bubble is created. Once the masses start suspecting something and slow (amount of active fools is finite, after all), the bubble bursts. I believe we are halfway to the bubble peak.

 

[Johnny Bravo]

I am fully aware of people getting very rich off of cryptocurrencies and it's constantly being touted as a great way to make money. I've done extensive research on it, especially Bitcoin, and still find myself very weary and distrustful of it. ... what do you guys think of cryptocurrencies, in particular Bitcoin? I'm curious. Thanks.

Full disclosure, I am heavily involved in crypto. My Fastlane business is essentially selling shovels to the miners.

You are smart to be wary. This is a VERY technical field which is extremely reliant on good code and smart business sense. The majority of people invested in crypto have no clue what they're buying. Dive into the forums and you'll see people clamoring about HODL and "when moon." They are practically screaming "I don't know what the hell I'm doing!"

At this point in time I would recommend institutional investors to steer clear of new entrants and casual purchases. Unless you're familiar with the company involved, the risk is enormous. I'd say roughly 95% of ICOs have been a complete bust. This isn't to say they are necessarily a scam, though there are plenty around.

Virtually every major tech and financial company on earth is exploring blockchain. Central banks, global behemoth banks, tech giants, even companies like Walmart and Maersk have projects. The potential for market disruption is massive, but still uncertain. It is very similar to the adoption of the internet. At first nobody really knew how to capitalize on the technology. Just an an "e" to something (ePets, eTravel, etc.) and you've got yourself a winner.

Bottom line is that most investors have no clue how to take this development because they don't understand it. Sure, it's a public ledger protected by distributed networking and cryptographic keys. Easy enough. But understanding how to utilize it and why it might be better than a currently existing technology is a bit more complicated. Even worse, what makes one implementation better or worse than another?

If your clients are interested in blockchain, tell them to invest in IBM or Microsoft or Google or any of the other very successful and inventive companies out there who are actively working with blockchain.

 

[LittleWolfie]

A common thread trend: Bitcoin -> Blockchain -> Buffett -> Belfort ->Tether -> /end-thread
.

Because tether is an mlm scam with plenty of paid shills, I'm suprised MJ doesn't ban anyone promoting it.

You are smart to be wary. This is a VERY technical field which is extremely reliant on good code and smart business sense. The majority of people invested in crypto have no clue what they're buying. Dive into the forums and you'll see people clamoring about HODL and "when moon." They are practically screaming "I don't know what the hell I'm doing!"

Unless you're familiar with the company involved, the risk is enormous. I'd say roughly 95% of ICOs have been a complete bust. This isn't to say they are necessarily a scam, though there are plenty around.

Virtually every major tech and financial company on earth is exploring blockchain. Central banks, global behemoth banks, tech giants, even companies like Walmart and Maersk have projects. The potential for market disruption is massive, but still uncertain. It is very similar to the adoption of the internet. At first nobody really knew how to capitalize on the technology. Just an an "e" to something (ePets, eTravel, etc.) and you've got yourself a winner.

Bottom line is that most investors have no clue how to take this development because they don't understand it. Sure, it's a public ledger protected by distributed networking and cryptographic keys. Easy enough. But understanding how to utilize it and why it might be better than a currently existing technology is a bit more complicated. Even worse, what makes one implementation better or worse than another?

If your clients are interested in blockchain, tell them to invest in IBM or Microsoft or Google or any of the other very successful and inventive companies out there who are actively working with blockchain.

Even familiarity won't help, long island blockchain. Companies have found just adding blockchain to their names increases thier share prices on the NYSE..

My advice would be if you don't understand the technology, then you shouldn't invest.

 

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[TinyTim]

BYD, One of the Largest Chinese Car Brands and World’s Top Selling Plug-In Electric Car…

That's right, the largest electric vehicle manufacturer in the world (BYD) is now using a cryptocurrency (VeChain). Not every project is a scam. You just need to the find the legit ones.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVWPYT0RU0s&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=_WGUuxLkYXOPueXy%3A6

 

[Maxboost]

BYD, One of the Largest Chinese Car Brands and World’s Top Selling Plug-In Electric Car…

That's right, the largest electric vehicle manufacturer in the world (BYD) is now using a cryptocurrency (VeChain). Not every project is a scam. You just need to the find the legit ones.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVWPYT0RU0s&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=_WGUuxLkYXOPueXy%3A6

You didn't even read your own article. They are not using "cryptocurreny" but using block chain technology to trade carbon credits to reduce carbon emissions.

Crypto is STILL BANNED in China.

 

[TinyTim]

You didn't even read your own article. They are not using "cryptocurreny" but using block chain technology to trade carbon credits to reduce carbon emissions.

Crypto is STILL BANNED in China.

From the video - "Created a smart contract on the VeChain Thor Public Blockchain".

From the article - "Moving the data of millions of cars, buses, trains, and other vehicles onto a public blockchain platform (VeChain)".

From BYD's twitter - BYD on Twitter

Using the PUBLIC blockchain platform will burn VTHO (crypto), the gas to VeChain Thor PUBLIC blockchain.

Edit: I'll keep updating this thread, as there's plenty of big adoption news still to come in the following months.

 

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[HackVenture]

The guy who said in 1899 that "everything that can be invented has been invented", is he stupid? Don't think so, he must have got the post of Commissioner of US patent office for a reason.

Truth is everyone makes mistakes in judgement because it's just how our beautiful and dynamic world works.

That said, I am a believer of blockchain and even for non-believers I would suggest them to hold a tiny amount for diversification purposes, and buying now in this downturn would give them a very high chance of much, much higher returns than conventional investments down the road,

 

[GoGetter24]

If your clients are interested in blockchain, tell them to invest in IBM or Microsoft or Google or any of the other very successful and inventive companies out there who are actively working with blockchain.

Exactly.

Note that while most tech companies went bust in 2000, that bubble still energized companies like Amazon and PayPal. They came through it fine -- because they had solid fundamentals.

If you think it's as simple as "invest blockchain", and then randomly spew you money all over anyone who uses the word "blockchain", you're going to be annihilated, while your peers who bet based on solid fundamentals and investment principles get rich.

 

[Jonleehacker]

This thread reminds me of the red pill / blue pill scene in the Matrix.

Bitcoin is tearing away the veil of fiat currency.

It is future beyond the ruinous effects of inflation and central bank bubbles that have wreaked havoc and allowed Wall Street bankers to get rich, while robbing everyday citizens of their savings and opportunities.

It is an attempt at freedom from the surveillance state and money as a system of control.

Bitcoin is not an investment.

It's a hedge against inflation. It's a hedge against the fact the EVERY fiat currency, including the US dollar has an inevitable value of zero. Since 1971, when the US ended the gold standard, the US dollar has lost 97.5% of its purchasing power.

It's a way to exchange value, instantly, between any two people without consent from a corrupt bank, Interact, or a self serving bank.

The magnitude of change that a system of money like that makes possible in this world is staggering.

As someone who has studied economics for 20 years, the only conclusion that I have ever come to was that the world financial system is doomed. The only hope was holding gold, which is incredibly impractical.

Now Bitcoin picks up Gold's positive attributes (can't be inflated, is globally valued) and adds to it easy of division and easy of transfer to anyone anywhere in the world.

Finally hope for real change. Finally functional sound money.

 

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[masterneme]

Cryptos & Blockchain are the MLM of tech, they don't do anything better than what we already have, early adopters and top tier people are making gazillions, those who are jumping into the bandwagon now are doing it because it's "a good business opportunity", their arguments are usually about "how X company/person made a lot of money" or about "the huge future potential" or about "bringing the system down" and if you say something they don't like they'll tell you that "you don't understand how it works" or that "it's here to stay" or something like that, cult-like behavior that you can see in any MLM organization.

The tech is not a scam but it's nothing special, it will be with us forever the same way torrents are still around but they didn't substitute the way we transfer data.

 

[Johnny Bravo]

These two posts are excellent examples of the misunderstanding and mystique surrounding blockchain. If you'll allow me, I'd like to make a couple of comments regarding each and follow up with my opinion as to the future.

Bitcoin is tearing away the veil of fiat currency.

It is future beyond the ruinous effects of inflation and central bank bubbles that have wreaked havoc and allowed Wall Street bankers to get rich, while robbing everyday citizens of their savings and opportunities.

I understand the sentiment, but this is a great example of Utopian (or "cultish" if you will) thinking. While there absolutely exists a protectionist barrier in economic policies around the globe, blockchain is highly unlikely to change the position of governments. Governments will always use whatever tools they have available to them to retain power, blockchain included.

Precious metals as money is an anachronistic and obsolete concept. People in this camp tend to erroneously believe that gold and/or silver has always been used as money throughout history. The truth is that the common medium of exchange has varied widely throughout time, geography, and custom. In many ways, cryptocurrencies share the same flaws of precious metals. First and foremost is the inability to inflate or deflate on demand. It amazes me how many people believe this to be a pernicious ability of the banking sector (my own school quite possibly first among the detractors) without bothering to look at the implications of NOT having the capacity for money creation/destruction.

But there are a couple of good ideas in this post as well:

It is an attempt at freedom from the surveillance state and money as a system of control. ... It's a way to exchange value, instantly, between any two people without consent from a corrupt bank, Interact, or a self serving bank.

I'll address these points in relation to the post by masterneme.

Cryptos & Blockchain are the MLM of tech, they don't do anything better than what we already have, early adopters and top tier people are making gazillions, those who are jumping into the bandwagon now are doing it because it's "a good business opportunity", their arguments are usually about "how X company/person made a lot of money" or about "the huge future potential" or about "bringing the system down" and if you say something they don't like they'll tell you that "you don't understand how it works" or that "it's here to stay" or something like that, cult-like behavior that you can see in any MLM organization.

The post starts out fairly strong. I generally compare blockchain tech to the internet, but this works at a very basic level. A very large portion of the entrants into blockchain tech do not add any value, as he so gruffly pointed out. The dot-com bubble cost investors something to the tune of $5 trillion. Why? Proponents were overly optimistic about the benefits and use value of internet businesses. Same thing here. In fact, we can find many cases of almost identical claims then and now.

However...

The tech is not a scam but it's nothing special, it will be with us forever the same way torrents are still around but they didn't substitute the way we transfer data.

Let's change this a bit. "[Blockchain] tech is not a scam but it's nothing special, it will be with us forever the same way the internet is still around but didn't substitute the way we transfer data."

The internet has been one of the most massively disrupting technologies in recent decades in spite of the colossal crash as noted above. Amazon just became the second business to hit a $1 trillion value. It is ludicrous to think that a large business could survive today without an internet presence.

So what does this mean?

Blockchain has very specific benefits which are, to date, unmet by any other technology. Among the most important are distributed networking and immutability. These two aspects can potentially cause dramatic effects on political power, cronyism, voting, property rights, privacy, money, data mining, and countless other areas.

For example, recent history in Ukraine and Syria has shown that governments do not hesitate to block internet traffic and the reporting of news. Blockchain efforts are underway to provide meshnets which would distribute data unable to be altered or constrained by oppressive governments.

Voting machines are notoriously untrustworthy due to the capacity to be hacked. Blockchain is a very reasonable solution to the problems of unverifiable databases.

Property rights in many third world nations are highly uncertain due to issues of poor records handling, corruption, and simple errors. Blockchain solutions would create a publicly verifiable and cheap solution to the recording of property transfers.

The World Bank has determined that roughly half of the world's population falls into the category of "unbanked." These are individuals who have no access to modern bank accounts and/or credit systems. This means that they are virtually unable to access the global trade markets or make meaningful capital improvements to businesses or personal property. Cryptocurrencies are more than capable (and in fact already are in many areas) of addressing this gap.

And on and on...

Is blockchain the glorious solution to everything? No, that's 42. But it'll have some pretty amazing disruptions to the economy.

 

[masterneme]

Is blockchain the glorious solution to everything? No

Thanks, that's my point and what I've been saying since the beginning.

Blockchain is very good at what is good at but why would you use it for other things that offer no added benefit to?

Just because you can doesn't mean that you should but some people just seem so in love with it that it looks like they want toilets connected to the Ethereum Network.

Also, as I said in the past, let's not forget that a network needs nodes to host the blockchain and right now those nodes are miners with their clusters who are only contributing because of the money they get from it.

All the potential or benefits mean nothing without the hardware layer.

So, ironically, the anti-capitalist disruption that blockchains and cryptocurrencies could provide won't happen without someone paying the electric bills, equipment and broadband.

 

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[James Fake]

On the flip side; I read this thread as a sentiment gauger.

Blockchain? I tried to Google for "is internet a scam" articles dated pre-1997. Ironically; Google has nothing because it didn't exist then. (that last sentence alone is worth gold). But pre-1997; I'm sure there was the same exact sentiment shared at the same exact rate and stage of early adoption.

As A Currency? Imo; I think maybe too close to the trees to see the forest? Too close to the forest to see the Earth isn't flat?

Eventually; the internet will evolve. We added a social layer (that completely changed the world) that no one saw coming when the internet was first born.

There are many more layers coming including a need for determining "value". Notice I didn't say Money or Currency but "Value". As infrastructure for exchanging "Value" advances, there will come a time when every argument against it as a "Value" becomes null.

Think.... internet pre-broadband. Now think internet post-broadband. HUGE difference. =)

 

[rogue synthetic]

This thread looks to have become one of those train-wrecks of ego that are becoming par for the course around here lately, so I haven't read most of the posts. Must be a full moon or something.

Instead, here's an interesting book on Bitcoin I just finished a few days ago:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1119473861/?tag=tff-amazonparser-20

Ammous leans just a smidge too far into the Menger/Mises/Rothbard school of economics for my liking. He's right on the knife's edge between dogmatic ideology and fascinating argument.

Just where I like my intellectuals. (What, you thought you had to agree with everybody to find their ideas interesting? Ha!)

His case is that centrally-planned monetary policy since the gold standard was dropped -- unofficially for the first time around World War I, more formally in 1973 -- has created a whole lot of rubbish to gum up the machinery of democratic and capitalist societies.

Bitcoin is the cure for the fever because it represents an ideal monetary supply, sitting at a sweet spot ratio between the stock -- the available supply -- and the flow -- the amounts newly created.

Gold has some obvious limitations, being that bars of it are dense, usually heavy and highly non-portable. Bitcoin, that's just code. And code is easy to move. In return you get a medium of exchange which isn't subject to wild inflation, or goofy forex rules, and highly resists even attempts of central planners, private or public, to crack down on it.

The most interesting point I thought was his case for the expansion of time horizons which stable currencies allow. Here in our world of fiat money, we're encouraged to spend. Part of that is Keynes 101, where spending drives consumption drives Economy. This being a conscious decision, it means that money tends to devalue itself over time, so there is little incentive to save.

This ripples out well past your personal savings account or life-ruining piles of debt. It also discourages innovation on the Big Projects, the real pyramid-building, civilization-changing stuff. Bad money has encouraged not only flagrant spending but short-term horizons on the part of the innovators, the big corporates and even the cognitive capital -- the entrepreneurs, the top 1% of the IQ bracket.

Instead of designing jetpacks, they go into finance... an industry that would be a shadow of the current Leviathan with a stable global currency.

The build apps instead of blue-sky thinking. We got iPhones and Twitter instead of nuclear rockets and bases on Europa.

Is Ammous right? It's a tempting argument. I'm no economist so I can't comment on that side of the fence.

But I think most of us can relate to the feeling that something has gone deeply wrong. We haven't just seen old ways of life -- the education, the career, the house and the family -- slowly evaporate. The old dreams have gone with them. The Unscripted life attracts us for a reason.

Of course that feeling of unease makes for easy pickings when it comes time to explain it. And we humans, we love some stories to make sense of chance. I couldn't help but feel like Ammous let his Austrian flag fly a bit too wildly when he blamed everything on bad money.

A good rule of thumb: neat-and-tidy explanations of history that look too simple usually are.

It's a neat summary of the what and the why of Bitcoin, and how it makes some pretty unique connections between monetary policy, sociology, and plain old human desires. If he's right, there are some gems that aspiring cryptocurrency investors ought to be on the look out for, too.

If you don't mind a little ideological saber-rattling and polemic, it's a thought-provoker of a book, well worth the read.

 

[ALC]

Does big compagnies like IBM or Banking Industry as already put in place the BlockChain Technology or are they just talking about it but haven't changed anything yet ?

Sorry to change the subject a bit (still related), but i see a lot of people talking about it, it's fascinating to see such a beautiful technology but is there anybody that use it ?

I have invested in CarVertical 1.5 year ago at its beginning because i think it would do good for the Car Industry, but in 1.5 years even if they've done great progress, there's still no result neither Car Manufacturer that has adopted the technology.

Do you know any companies that use it / has replaced their old technology by Blockchain ?

Just trying to understand if it's a real thing or not.
For example in the R.E, they talk about smart contract and buying remotely any property you want. (which also mean less work for notary / banks maybe / R.E Agents..)

 

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[TinyTim]

Oh look, more big companies getting involved with crypto projects.

VeChain Partners with Leading Chinese Energy Companies to Pilot Blockchain-Enabled Liquified Natural Gas Solution

"China's commitment to being a world leader in clean energy adoption and the reduction of carbon emissions has taken a significant step forward today with the announcement of a liquified natural gas (LNG) management solution, enabled by the VeChainThor Blockchain. The blockchain solution is the result of a new joint initiative between VeChain and two of China's leading energy and gas companies ENN Energy Holdings Limited and Shanghai Gas (Group) Co., Ltd."

 

[Maxboost]

Oh look, more big companies getting involved with BLOCK CHAIN TECHNOLOGY.

VeChain Partners with Leading Chinese Energy Companies to Pilot Blockchain-Enabled Liquified Natural Gas Solution

"China's commitment to being a world leader in clean energy adoption and the reduction of carbon emissions has taken a significant step forward today with the announcement of a liquified natural gas (LNG) management solution, enabled by the VeChainThor Blockchain. The blockchain solution is the result of a new joint initiative between VeChain and two of China's leading energy and gas companies ENN Energy Holdings Limited and Shanghai Gas (Group) Co., Ltd."

fixed that for you....

Investing in block chain technology does not mean investing in cryptocurrency like bitcoin.

 

[TinyTim]

fixed that for you....

Investing in block chain technology does not mean investing in cryptocurrency like bitcoin.

I've answered this to you previously. I'm not sure whether you're aware of the other uses of crypto, not just as a currency. Maybe it's a semantic issue. Perhaps "Cryptoasset" would be a more suitable word and make it easier to understand.

These companies, like BYD, are using VeChain's PUBLIC blockchain. Usage of the blockchain requires gas called VTHO, which is a cryptocurrency.

 

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[Laughingman21]

I'm amazed how many times in this thread people backing crypto currency's use the terms crypto and blockchain interchangabley as if they're the same thing.

 

[TreyAllDay]

Here's my unproven and completely unsubstantiated conspirary theory on bitcoin:

The elites who own news and television bought into it, promoted the shit out of it, drove it up to an insane value, sold, made out like thieves in the night, and crashed it for everyone else.

 

[Conrad]

The only way to destroy cryptocurrencies is with powerful computers.
The whole crypto is behaving like it is designed for: anonymity.

Is it gambling?
Is it like running a webshop?
Is it smart risk management?
Is it investing?
Is it a digital currency, Peer to peer?

Just use with caution. It is here to stay.

 

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[Johnny Bravo]

The whole crypto is behaving like it is designed for: anonymity.

Very few cryptocurrencies are anonymous. In fact, it has turned out to be quite difficult to make anonymous yet verifiable transactions work properly. The entire premise of a blockchain is that you have an immutable and publicly verifiable ledger. In other words, anyone and everyone can see and track every single transaction.

Granted, the fact that relatively few public keys can be fixed to any particular person or company adds to the appearance of anonymity, but this by no means makes them anonymous.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

 

[Johnny Bravo]

I'm amazed how many times in this thread people backing crypto currency's use the terms crypto and blockchain interchangabley as if they're the same thing.

There is no industry consensus so it makes it easier to use the commonly referred to terms rather than more technically accurate. Even the term blockchain doesn't adequately cover this market. I personally prefer distributed ledger technology, but it's a mouthful.

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