Stop wasting time - Choose your advice carefully

[fastlane_dad]

To sum up:

- those who want to create solo entrepreneurship: follow @fastlane_dad and @NeoDialectic (they’ll have better advice)
- those who want to create enterprise businesses, follow @Kak
- nobody follow me, thanks

In my mind it almost goes beyond this...

What I also pick up on is the topic of 'find work you enjoy and you never will work a day in your life' dogma - or more accurately follow your passion perhaps? Because -- then why would you ever 'retire from your passion'...

I've been in camp of separating passion / enterprise and more so building up a business to meet your goals (financial freedom and eventually time freedom being such examples). Once you accomplish that - you can figure out what to do next with the few precious seconds of time you have left on the planet. @NeoDialectic and my way of accomplishing that goal has always been to be as streamlined as possible, outsourcing majority of the work, bootstrapping as much as we can - and figuring out where this road ends (or what is 'enough').

Now I can solely focus on my 'enterprise business' of growing my stamp collection, without having to merge that with financial incentives of any sort (because let's be honest there might not be that much money in butterfly stamp collecting).

To me this model always made the most sense, and why the 'fastlane community' here has grown. Maybe I still haven't stumbled on what that passion is that I don't ever want to retire from, to build an 'enterprise' and also pays the bills handsomely.

 

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[Antifragile]

In my mind it almost goes beyond this...

What I also pick up on is the topic of 'find work you enjoy and you never will work a day in your life' dogma - or more accurately follow your passion perhaps? Because -- then why would you ever 'retire from your passion'...

I've been in camp of separating passion / enterprise and more so building up a business to meet your goals (financial freedom and eventually time freedom being such examples). Once you accomplish that - you can figure out what to do next with the few precious seconds of time you have left on the planet. @NeoDialectic and my way of accomplishing that goal has always been to be as streamlined as possible, outsourcing majority of the work, bootstrapping as much as we can - and figuring out where this road ends (or what is 'enough').

Now I can solely focus on my 'enterprise business' of growing my stamp collection, without having to merge that with financial incentives of any sort (because let's be honest there might not be that much money in butterfly stamp collecting).

To me this model always made the most sense, and why the 'fastlane community' here has grown. Maybe I still haven't stumbled on what that passion is that I don't ever want to retire from, to build an 'enterprise' and also pays the bills handsomely.

We could debate this till the cows come home.

But allow me to clarify:

No, we aren't talking about "never work a day in your life because you followed your stamp collection passion business". That's nonsense. While it may read that way to you, it is not how it plays out for me.

I think passion over your own product in business is grossly overrated. Business is there to solve problems, remove inconveniences by inventing ways that haven't been done before.

But what you are missing is simple. You don't have to "quit" your business to both have time freedom and financial freedom. Plenty of Ultra HNW individuals travel the world, enjoy the life most can only dream of and also spend some time at their offices because they choose to do so. It is the "either/or" that you describe that I (with very few others) do not subscribe to.

I work hard on businesses AND I enjoy when I succeed. If I had $1Bl in cash today, I'd just have a bigger business. It is not because I am so passionate that I consider it "not working". It is because I consider the alternative of doing nothing special (because I "retired") to be so dreadful.

Your description of going out for a coffee in your Ferrari may be awe inspiring to some people (especially those who cannot afford a new car, let alone a super car). But it is the opposite for me. We are just different. To me it is a useless activity. And believe me, I've been there, wanted it, and done it too (but in a 911)... looking back, it left me with "is this all there is to it?" I never get that feeling with my businesses.

Other than us all duking it out... what is the purpose of this thread? Seems a bit like a shrink asking patient to talk about shit on the couch lol.

Have a nice day boys!

 

[MJ DeMarco]

flipping a house can be quite profitable but outside of money, I see nothing exciting about it.

This demonstrates your tunnel vision and inflexibility on many issues.

For many, flipping a house is like art because it is a process of turning something old, into something new. It can be very creative, requires leadership and management, and has a finish date.

For others, there is excitement in restoring cars -- taking a junkyard POS and transforming it into something shiny and stunning. The process is the achievement and the reward is the outcome.

I have no interest in either "sports" but can respect anyone with the patience and fortitude to successfully do both.

But your omnipotent attitude continually demonstrates that your view on business, is the only view.

I don't have an issue with your viewpoint and generally agree with a lot of it, but lately, it always seems to come with pomposity. Is there a reason your recent posts are filled with "holier than thou" takes? Almost to the point of contentiousness and adversarial purposes?

Not sure why you have a hard time understanding, but not everyone loves coffee. And just because you think it is the best drink in the world, doesn't mean everyone shares your viewpoint while damning them if they don't.

 

[NeoDialectic]

Did a mod edit my poll to add "What was the purpose of this thread?" as a choice? I know I didn't put that in there.

To sum up:

- those who want to create solo entrepreneurship: follow @fastlane_dad and @NeoDialectic (they’ll have better advice)
- those who want to create enterprise businesses, follow @Kak
- nobody follow me, thanks

I don't want to say listen to US verse others. Rather someone that values solo entrepreneurship versus enterprise. Other than that, you summed it up very well!

Sweet. Glad the turf war is settled.

We are all capable of disagreeing and I don’t plan to change my thoughts on the matter.

For anyone asking about the overarching point of the thread, here it is. Just putting sunlight on the value difference that is driving some of the recent disagreements and how the disagreements aren't about an objective right/wrong but a subjective right/wrong. Turf war settled!

Having other members think about their own goals and building their vision based on them is very important. It gives them a good heuristic for knowing whether a piece of advice is right or wrong for them.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Did a mod edit my poll to add "What was the purpose of this thread?" as a choice? I know I didn't put that in there.

I didn't do that and I have no idea who did. Will remove it.

 

[Kak]

But what you are missing is simple. You don't have to "quit" your business to both have time freedom and financial freedom. Plenty of Ultra HNW individuals travel the world, enjoy the life most can only dream of and also spend some time at their offices because they choose to do so. It is the "either/or" that you describe that I (with very few others) do not subscribe to.

I think this sums me up nicely.

There seems to be a growing sentiment that this is either/or. It isn’t. That’s not a subjective truth.

People are capable of having large businesses and have an enormous amount of non-business fun. Building unnecessary walls in this regard does nothing, but prevent such an awesome outcome.

The scalability that @Antifragile and I speak of exists and it comes from having a larger business. The irony is sometimes the entrepreneurs with the biggest businesses, that have the most going on, can also have the most free time.

It’s all about it being bigger than just you and your own efforts. It’s like frickin Burger King. Have it your way, you’re the entrepreneur. You’re not subject to any walls you don’t subject yourself to.

With the right leadership your business could look a lot more like an investment than a job.

I consider my lifestyle almost a level of semi-retired. It’s excellent. I can do what I want when I want, but I also schedule hard meetings, business travel, and get things done too. I built it this way. It’s available and not some abstract concept.

So while @fastlane_dad @NeoDialectic and MJ think @Antifragile and I are being very black and white and overly binary on this, can you guy not see how your positions come across very binary to us?

I believe that’s why the tension and level of debate is here. Make no mistake, it’s coming from both sides.

I simply won’t be told I’m wrong. It’s hard not to feel like my advice is being dismissed as a “waste of time” by the title of this thread and being named in the first post.

Just some food for thought. I don’t care one way or another. I’m happy doing what I’m doing and I’m happy y’all are happy doing what you’re all doing.

 

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[Kak]

Question for @fastlane_dad and @NeoDialectic

When you guys were running your business, what did your day to day look like? Essentially what was your job? How long did it take? Did you feel owned by your business?

If I felt owned by my business, I’d want to be freed too. I fully get that. I also understand the hustle. I however, need that to be temporary.

I think part of this comes down to owning your business vs it owning you. I have gone through times where by business owns me, and I will absolutely agree that it is way less fun.

If your build to sell cycle looks like hustling your a$$ off until you can’t do it anymore, selling it and enjoying life, could the process have provided for a little more personal thrive?

 

[monnffffiiiiiii]

It probably starts as means to an end and slowly becomes an end in itself.

 

[NeoDialectic]

Can you clarify? I’m not sure I understand.

I am saying that the people that are extremely driven and place business as the highest value in their life (#1's from the poll, and excluding immediate family and health) are also the least likely people that go to forums for advice, need advice from strangers, or would have the personality to even accept advice. They come here for connections and maybe ideas to implement.

I'm open to having my mind changed on that being a fact. But if we accept that as true, then most advice should really be geared toward those in #3 or even #2 camp.

Imagine you are tired. It's been a long day. You are bagged and ready for well deserved rest. Phone rings, someone calls you about a business deal, really great deal. You have enough money for all your needs, so money isn't the driver here.

Do you get:
A) Energized?
B) Indifferent?
C) Annoyed?

The way you talk, I figure you'll be indifferent.
We are different. I get energized as if it was morning and I just had my coffee.

We just moved offices and I took my wife and kid there this morning. Seeing my face when I talk about our business she said that she thinks I'll be like Jimmy Pattison (local businessman who is over 90 and still goes to his office every day). She is not wrong, I love this "game". Point is, there is no other "game" that's as challenging and fulfilling.

Yet (and you already know) there are other parts to my life that take priority: #1 family, #2 health).

+1 on @fastlane_dad 's response....It depends on what it is, but when I am with my family on Saturday, I'm either indifferent or annoyed. Even if it's us sitting at our house with nothing to do. On the other hand, I'm not saying it has never happened that a business emergency pulled me out from family time or something else. But I don't think that is what you're asking.

Alex and I have talked about the idea of whether we would move for a job or business and we always basically come up on HARD NO.

I am confused by this too.

I read your post like that story about a TV Ad warning about the latest string of violence against the homeless sleeping on the streets. Yet all those homeless people who should be watching don't have a TV to see the warning. And your point being, we should give TVs to homeless people. And I am thinking, why not help them find shelter? And you'll say "but they won't listen, they aren't as motivated as the those who have homes"... and ... here we are.




PS waiting on @BizyDad to post a reprimand for "pilling on".

The reason my posts are so long is that I try to include as much nuance as a can to make it impossible to misinterpret. Andy may be right about making posts short. I may just be spinning my wheels "covering my bases" as somehow you still read in the worst of intentions. Pulled from one of my posts:

So advice that either helps drive their mindset closer to a #1 or helps them act in spite of not being as motivated as a #1.

I'm not proposing we get the homeless TV's. I'm proposing that just giving the homeless shelter, doesn't actually solve the problem. Solving their problem involves building a bridge that actually goes to where they are CURRENTLY AT, and not just some imaginary perfect position.

Just some food for thought. I don’t care one way or another. I’m happy doing what I’m doing and I’m happy y’all are happy doing what you’re all doing.

I simply won’t be told I’m wrong.

I don't think anyone has ever said you are doing wrong for yourself. I also don't think I've ever seen people deride your advice as bad for your goals or someone with similar goals. I generally see nothing but praise for you and @Antifragile on the forums. Well-deserved praise, at that.

The pushback only comes when other successful routes are looked down upon. People don't like being shamed for not having the same goals. It's the same reason that you just said "I simply won't be told I'm wrong" yourself!

If you are sincere about your last post, then all is well! We both agree that different people probably fit better with different types of businesses based on their values and goals.

 

[Kak]

I also don't think I've ever seen people deride your advice as bad for your goals or someone with similar goals.

But here lies the issue man. If your goal is hotrodding around in a Ferrari and enjoying your non-business life, the enterprise model also provides.

It’s like you’re saying if you want to enjoy your life don’t start an enterprise business. It’s not true.

I’m not putting the walls up, I’m taking them down. I’m not saying “employees are too hard.” I’m not saying “investors are scary.” I’m vehemently saying they are available to you and shouldn’t be dismissed, despite swimming upstream with this viewpoint.

The reality is this forum is an echo chamber for the micro business point of view. Most successful entrepreneurs that have made something of themselves had investors and employees. The advice shouldn’t be shunned in an entrepreneur forum.

Investors don’t have to be scary and employees can alleviate your personal workload and make your life easier.

I don’t believe you are putting the walls up. But you view my looking past them or disregarding them as looking down upon choices. On the contrary. I will always question needless walls put up by limiting beliefs or based on corrupt or incomplete understanding of how this absolutely can work.

My message is freeing. You are at least dancing with a restrictive message.

 

[NeoDialectic]

But here lies the issue man. If your goal is hotrodding around in a Ferrari and enjoying your non-business life, the enterprise model also provides.

It’s like you’re saying if you want to enjoy your life don’t start an enterprise business. It’s not true.

I’m not putting the walls up, I’m taking them down. I’m not saying “employees are too hard.” I’m not saying “investors are scary.” I’m vehemently saying they are available to you and shouldn’t be dismissed, despite swimming upstream with this viewpoint.

The reality is this forum is an echo chamber for the micro business point of view. Most successful entrepreneurs that have made something of themselves had investors and employees. The advice shouldn’t be shunned in an entrepreneur forum.

Investors don’t have to be scary and employees can alleviate your personal workload and make your life easier.

I don’t believe you are putting the walls up. But you view my looking past them or disregarding them as looking down upon choices. On the contrary. I will always question needless walls put up by limiting beliefs or based on corrupt or incomplete understanding of how this absolutely can work.

My message is freeing. You are at least dancing with a restrictive message.

All else equal, building a successful big enterprise with investors and hundreds of employees takes more sacrifices than building a successful small business.

"All else equal" is an important stipulation in that sentence. If you ENJOY shaking hands with policy makers, managing people, living a fast pace lifestyle, etc.. then those 'sacrifices' aren't actually sacrifices. Telling you that you have to do those things may just be threatening you with a good time! Hence why my entire first post is based around VALUES (I am using enjoyment & values as a loose proxy for each other).

The most enjoyable part of my last business was solving problems. The least enjoyable part was managing the few employees that I did have. If you told me I could have exactly the same outcome, but 5x the money and impact but I needed 5x the employees, I would balk at that trade off. I know, since that is a very real choice we grappled with the last 5 years. Large enterprise isn't just "exactly same as small business but more of the better stuff".

YOU enjoy (or don't mind) those things, hence why you look at smaller businesses and all you see is them having no positives over enterprise and just negatives.

Every part of your argument downstream from this is just the equivalent of you trying to convince an introvert that being extroverted is actually the right way to live without taking into account their inherent personality.

 

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[Kak]

I think, all else equal, building a successful big enterprise with investors and hundreds of employees takes more sacrifices than building a successful small business.

"All else equal" is an important stipulation in that sentence. If you ENJOY shaking hands with policy makers, managing people, living a fast pace lifestyle, etc.. then those 'sacrifices' aren't actually sacrifices. Telling you that you have to do those things may just be threatening you with a good time! Hence why my entire first post is based around VALUES (I am using enjoyment & values as a loose proxy for each other).

The least enjoyable part of my last business was managing the few employees that I did have. The most enjoyable part was solving problems.

YOU enjoy (or don't mind) those things, hence why you look at smaller businesses and all you see is them having no positives over enterprise and just negatives. Every part of your argument downstream from this is just the equivalent of you trying to convince an introvert that being extroverted is actually the right way to live.

See you think I’m trying to convince people of doing this my way. I’m unequivocally not.

I’m just not accepting the either/or, it’s harder therefore not for you if you like your non-business life, narrative.

That is the problem I have. Limiting beliefs.

So to sum up the turf wars, if you want to embolden limiting beliefs listen to @NeoDialectic and if you want to consider all options listen to @Kak.

Ask yourself who started this thread? Who’s really trying to convince you of something? Who has the more freeing message?

There’s a ton of micro-business voices on this forum, why are you taking on the the very few who see things differently? It’s not like I’ve taken the popular stance here.

 

[NeoDialectic]

See you think I’m trying to convince people of doing this my way. I’m unequivocally not.

I’m just not accepting the either/or, it’s harder therefore not for you if you like your non-business life, narrative.

That is the problem I have. Limiting beliefs.

So to sum up the turf wars, if you want to embolden limiting beliefs listen to @NeoDialectic and if you want to consider all options listen to @Kak.

Ask yourself who started this thread? Who’s really trying to convince you of something? Who has the more freeing message?

Hogwash, and you don't believe this yourself.

If it was a fact that shunning your family and faith will unleash your business potential, @Kak would not do this. Exactly because of your character and values. You also wouldn't accept someone framing your point of view as LIMITING even though the word game you are currently playing makes that technically correct. You would argue that family and faith is more important and the other "options" are actually limiting your LIFE.

Are you arguing that people shouldn't live consistently with their values? This has absolutely nothing to do with limiting beliefs and I won't accept your mischaracterization of it. No one is saying you can't do x or y. It's about doing what is most consistent with your values and will lead to the most fulfillment and enjoyment.

 

[Kak]

It's about doing what is most consistent with your values and will lead to the most fulfillment and enjoyment.

You keep mischaracterizing what I’m saying. Of course do something consistent with your values. Values are more important than business.

I’m rejecting the notion that “my way” automatically leads to less non-business fulfillment and enjoyment which is absolutely the narrative you are spinning.

You have just recognized, rightfully, that I put non-business things ahead of business… Somehow I still chose enterprise to maximize that non-business value to me.

Ask yourself… How that can be? How can I see a giant a$$ enterprise business future, well into old age, as a maximization of my top values of faith and family? Could it be that you could be wrong about enterprise businesses owning you?

My business doesn’t own me. I’m not rare. Lots of people have business that don’t own them. It can grow forever and not own me. I won’t let it. The moment it does, it stops being rewarding and starts being burdensome, which is where I think you were when you sold. Ready to be done… And I can’t blame you one bit if that was the case.

Make no mistake, a business owning me is 100% my choice to give up that freedom. A choice I have only made a handful of times, always with a plan to get that freedom back.

 

[Antifragile]

but lately, it always seems to come with pomposity. Is there a reason your recent posts are filled with "holier than thou" takes? Almost to the point of contentiousness and adversarial purposes?

Not my intent in the slightest and given that's how I come off, I apologize to all readers.

I am a confident person in real life (as I am on a forum), but not for a second do I believe there is "my way and the wrong way", or "holler than thou" as you put it. I am here to debate it.

Two things come to mind:

1. Lately the forum had a few hard arguments that led to adversarial positions. Right or wrong, I felt most conflict was with some members promoting freelance as the holy grail of success and best way to start. My position was well outlined in the "Secrets to Scaling Up" thread. Having invested time and effort ... I wanted it to be helpful to all readers.
2. The irony of this thread is that while it started as an attempt to explain away "turf wars" ... it then felt like a passive aggressive resuscitation of the now closed "You don't need to be a freelancer" thread by @Kak. ... which then turned adversarial. I personally do not see a point of this thread...

For what it is worth, I have nothing to gain here. I sell nothing to the crowd and know that my intentions are pure. Even if my delivery can be rough.

 

[Kak]

@NeoDialectic

I genuinely think you will be surprised at my take, if you give this a listen. It will give you a more full understanding of my position on this.

We aren’t as far off as you think.

Build BIG, but NEVER Sell Your Thrive - Ep 335

Podcast Episode · Kyle Keegan Radio Show · 01/25/2023 · 23m

podcasts.apple.com

 

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[Albert KOUADJA]

I was reading @Kak 's updated description of his podcast , and it reminded me of a thread I made a while ago on doing business consistent with your personality. Then I started thinking about how there have been some significant rifts and heated debates recently on the forum. A core reason for the disagreements is simply a difference in preferences and values among the titans, as outlined below:

---

Entrepreneurship is an end in itself (It is fulfilling as a value in and of itself)​

This is the category that people like @Kak fall into. Working and doing business is a high value in and of itself. While money is a pleasant by-product, you just like working. Working and building something is immensely fulfilling and nearly irreplaceable as a value. You likely have to fall into this category to reach the upper echelons of business. Elon, Gary V, Cardone, and Steve Jobs fit this category.

Entrepreneurship is strictly a means to an end (achieving some higher value)​

This is probably where most wantrepreneurs start. You are only starting a business because you have calculated that doing so is the only way to achieve the lifestyle you want. You have to force yourself through the movements as you don't particularly like most of the actions involved. You don't want to spend time fixing things, you don't like hiring or managing people, and you would prefer to just do your hobbies or fulfill other values if you could. You would gladly work at Mcdonald's if it made you rich. MJ's books try to inspire the reader to leave this category and onto the next, as you will unlikely last long enough to strike success otherwise.

Entrepreneurship is somewhere in the middle for you (It is enjoyable but can thrive without it)​

I'm pretty sure this category includes @MJ DeMarco himself. This category also includes @fastlane_dad and me. You enjoy entrepreneurship, but it's ultimately serving some higher value, and you could live without it. I got into entrepreneurship to serve my highest value (freedom). I didn't want to work or be pressured by society to do something I didn't want to do.

Now that I no longer need to work, I've found that several aspects of entrepreneurship (building, helping, solving problems) are very fulfilling, so even though I can be doing anything I want, I choose to show up to the office anyways! On the other hand, I decided to travel for two weeks with my family every month this last year. Every time I come back, it blows my mind how two weeks passed, and I didn't even think about business. But I'm also glad to be back. If someone told me I couldn't build any more companies, I would be upset, then move on to some other value like working out, reading, having deep discussions, traveling, etc barely skipping a beat...

---

​

The Point​

Entrepreneurship is an art form, and you would do best following the advice of those that most jive with your motivations and values. The forum benefits from having an assortment of voices for aspiring entrepreneurs to listen to. When taking advice from someone, make sure you are correctly contextualizing the advice. For example, "Do they live the type I lifestyle I want to live?".

I deeply respect the type of people in the "entrepreneurship is an end in itself" category. But it isn't for me. If I try to take that person's advice, you will find me overworked, irritated, and far from fulfilled. Long term, I need more in my life than work. On the other hand, if that person takes my advice, they have been wasting a lot of time not dreaming big enough. Ironically they won't be fulfilled either because they know they aren't performing at their prime.

---

Afterthoughts​

I am curious to see where everyone here is on the spectrum, so I've included a poll in this thread. What are your goals and values? What is the purpose of entrepreneurship for you?

Me, I want to be the one who will stop the poverty in my family. To help the people who are important to me as much as possible, they may or may not be from my family. Never mind.
And apart from that, I have a terrible thirst for freedom. I want to spend time with my family, my children, my friends, to travel... where I want, and when I want. Being able to give myself the lifestyle I want without fear and permission from someone else.

When I have all that, my biggest goal would be to become a writer if not a speaker since I hate public speaking to have a more positive impact on the whole world.

 

[monnffffiiiiiii]

More:

Most people that succeed in entrepreneurship are like @Kak because it's easier to succeed when you like what you're doing.

People who hate entrepreneurship don't succeed at it (and this is why most don't succeed actually).

MJ is an exception in this regard. Well, actually he's an exception in every regard, but that's another topic.

Truth is 99% of people would rather have a poor life they enjoy rather than a rich life they hated for a while before retiring. I am a part of the former.

Money is nice but I'd prefer earning less on my terms doing what I want rather than earning more hating my life. At the end of the day, you wanna enjoy your time.

I do entrepreneurship because I like the freedom and responsibility that come with it.

I don't subscribe to the "do what you hate" fastlane ideology.

I do what I love and make money with it. Yep. I get to have my cake and eat it too. If I had 20 million tomorrow, I'd keep on doing exactly what I am doing now.

BUT...I am pretty weird. Most people would hate what I love doing, which is why it's making me money.

So in the end I am lucky: most people have a job as they would hate entrepreneurship. I build stuff because I hate having a job (and, well, I also like building stuff...)

 

[Kak]

Money is nice but I'd prefer earning less on my terms doing what I want rather than earning more hating my life. At the end of the day, you wanna enjoy your time.

And this, @NeoDialectic is the either/or narrative I’m talking about.

It’s not lots of money or enjoying life.

I put faith and family massively before business and still choose big business over a peaceful cabin in the woods, or freelancing, onepreneurship, or a job.

It’s not either or. Never has been. That’s why I keep arguing with it.

 

[NeoDialectic]

You keep mischaracterizing what I’m saying. Of course do something consistent with your values. Values are more important than business.

I’m rejecting the notion that “my way” automatically leads to less non-business fulfillment and enjoyment which is absolutely the narrative you are spinning.

You have just recognized, rightfully, that I put non-business things ahead of business… Somehow I still chose enterprise to maximize that non-business value to me.

Ask yourself… How that can be? How can I see a giant a$$ enterprise business future, well into old age, as a maximization of my top values of faith and family? Could it be that you could be wrong about enterprise businesses owning you?

My business doesn’t own me. I’m not rare. Lots of people have business that don’t own them. It can grow forever and not own me. I won’t let it. The moment it does, it stops being rewarding and starts being burdensome, which is where I think you were when you sold. Ready to be done… And I can’t blame you one bit if that was the case.

Make no mistake, a business owning me is 100% my choice to give up that freedom. A choice I have only made a handful of times, always with a plan to get that freedom back.

Maybe you can open my eyes. How can you build something bigger without a bigger commitment? If a bigger commitment is required, then everything else logically follows.

A bigger commitment by definition means more sacrifice in some facet. Thats it. The one caveat that I continually acknowledge is that if you don't mind sacrificing whatever that commitment demands, it's not necessarily a sacrifice for you but that is extremely enjoyment/value dependent.

@NeoDialectic

I genuinely think you will be surprised at my take, if you give this a listen. It will give you a more full understanding of my position on this.

We aren’t as far off as you think.

Build BIG, but NEVER Sell Your Thrive - Ep 335

Podcast Episode · Kyle Keegan Radio Show · 01/25/2023 · 23m

podcasts.apple.com

I'll give it a listen!

Not my intent in the slightest and given that's how I come off, I apologize to all readers.

I am a confident person in real life (as I am on a forum), but not for a second do I believe there is "my way and the wrong way", or "holler than thou" as you put it. I am here to debate it.

Two things come to mind:

1. Lately the forum had a few hard arguments that led to adversarial positions. Right or wrong, I felt most conflict was with some members promoting freelance as the holy grail of success and best way to start. My position was well outlined in the "Secrets to Scaling Up" thread. Having invested time and effort ... I wanted it to be helpful to all readers.
2. The irony of this thread is that while it started as an attempt to explain away "turf wars" ... it then felt like a passive aggressive resuscitation of the now closed "You don't need to be a freelancer" thread by @Kak. ... which then turned adversarial. I personally do not see a point of this thread...

For what it is worth, I have nothing to gain here. I sell nothing to the crowd and know that my intentions are pure. Even if my delivery can be rough.

I don't take these debates personally and enjoy adversarial discussions. Even if I balk at some of the characterizations of my argument, I know you guys ultimately mean well.

I didn't mean for this thread to be a rehashing of things and definitely didn't mean for it to be passive-aggressive. It was to help guide people in their search for advice. Maybe your one summation post was meant as tongue-in-cheek, but I read it seriously and agreed with the summary!

 

[Kak]

Maybe you can open my eyes. How can you build something bigger without a bigger commitment? If a bigger commitment is required, then everything else logically follows.

A bigger commitment by definition means more sacrifice in some facet. Thats it. The one caveat that I continually acknowledge is that if you don't mind sacrificing whatever that commitment demands, it's not necessarily a sacrifice for you but that is extremely enjoyment/value dependent.

I'll give it a listen!


I don't take these debates personally and enjoy adversarial discussions. Even if I balk at some of the characterizations of my argument, I know you guys ultimately mean well.

I didn't mean for this thread to be a rehashing of things and definitely didn't mean for it to be passive-aggressive. It was to help guide people in their search for advice. Maybe your one summation post was meant as tongue-in-cheek, but I read it seriously and agreed with the summary!

Now we are talking. Give it a listen. Don’t get triggered. And listen to the whole thing and understand how close we really are.

I don’t take it personally either, by the way.

You might even be very surprised, I do love businesses, but my business is actually still a means to an end as well. I want to thrive. Yet, I still chose enterprise.

I even say in that episode that you define thrive in a very personal way. I also flat out said my show is for people who want to do bigger things even if that looses me the freelance crowd.

 

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[Antifragile]

 

[Private Witt]

I have always found this “Jewish View of Retirement” to be quite spot on.

They also account for a massively disproportionate amount of billionaires per capita. Why? Because they live their lives with a different foundation than most everyone else. I personally think it should be pretty much the same protocol for Christians, and it’s sad that we haven’t yet, but I digress.

Those interested, I’m pretty much aligned with this attachment.

Thanks for this link, very interesting. I'm Jewish by blood and name, but non practicing religion wise. This was broken by my grandparents generation with a few cousin holdouts but yet almost every relative from grandparents, uncles, aunts, parents, cousins took up professions or businesses that go a lifetime and don't expire. My pops a retired field biologist is 81 and is considered a niche expert in Southern California on migrating hawks. All he does is get in the news when the birds come flying back.

 

[monnffffiiiiiii]

And this, @NeoDialectic is the either/or narrative I’m talking about.

It’s not lots of money or enjoying life.

I put faith and family massively before business and still choose big business over a peaceful cabin in the woods, or freelancing, onepreneurship, or a job.

It’s not either or. Never has been. That’s why I keep arguing with it.

Yes you can earn a lot AND have fun but it's more the exception rather than the rule, unless you love doing what earns you a lot.

 

[Vigilante]

There seems to be a misconception here that building bigger requires more time than being a full-time Solopreneur. Don’t misunderstand. While I’m grinding away on some basic building blocks of the things that we are working on, @Kak is emailing me on a Tuesday afternoon at 1 PM pictures of the steak that he’s cooking over the open fire grill he just put into his backyard.

I’m privy to his personal life in a personal way and I can tell you that he has 100% commitment to his family first, his faith in lockstep, and his businesses are closely behind.

The fact that he works on things that have $000,000’s while solopreneurs are working on $0,000’s doesn’t mean he’s neglecting anything that you would find important. If anything, he’s got more time than you have.

Leverage. Capitalism. People and systems. There’s a fundamental misunderstanding here that building bigger means you are selling out to business. His example would prove that the opposite is true.

If you are the marketing person, Shipping person, customer, service person, web, designer, and sourcing agent all in one… You have not separated your time from your income.

I can tell you of the multiple businesses that he owns, the one that I am the most impressed with has
Need
Entry
Control
Scale
And
Time Separation

The fundamental difference here is that when he is moving one of his products, nationally or internationally, the value of what he is moving, can be five or six figures. More zeros = more income. You’ve misunderstood that because he’s working with scale that is bigger than the scale that you are working with that it’s taking him more time than you are taking. It’s taking him personally… LESS.

And I think the point that you all have been arguing about for the last two years is this… Do you want to be focused on writing a copy block for somebody else’s webpage for $100 an hour? Or moving something in scale for $100,000 per transaction? Which one has a more clear path to financial freedom?

He’s had time to record 400 shows in the last 400 days in the middle of the day, on his own time, on his own schedule. Have you?

 

[Private Witt]

There seems to be a misconception here that building bigger requires more time than being a full-time Solopreneur. Don’t misunderstand. While I’m grinding away on some basic building blocks of the things that we are working on, @Kak is emailing me on a Tuesday afternoon at 1 PM pictures of the steak that he’s cooking over the open fire grill he just put into his backyard.

I’m privy to his personal life in a personal way and I can tell you that he has 100% commitment to his family first, his faith in lockstep, and his businesses are closely behind.

The fact that he works on things that have $000,000’s while solopreneurs are working on $0,000’s doesn’t mean he’s neglecting anything that you would find important. If anything, he’s got more time than you have.

Leverage. Capitalism. People and systems. There’s a fundamental misunderstanding here that building bigger means you are selling out to business. His example would prove that the opposite is true.

If you are the marketing person, Shipping person, customer, service person, web, designer, and sourcing agent all in one… You have not separated your time from your income.

I can tell you of the multiple businesses that he owns, the one that I am the most impressed with has
Need
Entry
Control
Scale
And
Time Separation

The fundamental difference here is that when he is moving one of his products, nationally or internationally, the value of what he is moving, can be five or six figures. More zeros = more income. You’ve misunderstood that because he’s working with scale that is bigger than the scale that you are working with that it’s taking him more time than you are taking. It’s taking him personally… LESS.

And I think the point that you all have been arguing about for the last two years is this… Do you want to be focused on writing a copy block for somebody else’s webpage for $100 an hour? Or moving something in scale for $100,000 per transaction? Which one has a more clear path to financial freedom?

He’s had time to record 400 shows in the last 400 days in the middle of the day, on his own time, on his own schedule. Have you?

This is solid gold man in every way, but would feel a lot better seeing that picture of that glorious steak.

Also great point on the 400 shows. That is stunning a man of Kak's success can be this consistent for so long while running multiple businesses. Is something that really stands out.

 

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[Kak]

but it's more the exception rather than the rule

How do you know this? How did you come up with this? How do the majority of people not understand time leverage of enterprise entrepreneurs?

This is unequivocally wrong. It has to be. How can one guy with the same 24 hours in a day do thousands of times more than someone else? To say the high achiever that owns his business couldn’t slot in more non-business fun than the guy who is owned by his income is absurd.

To sum up my thoughts. Being owned by your income, even if you’re self employed, is never better for anyone’s values, unless they value being enslaved.

 

[samuraijack]

I mostly agree with @Kak here.

Most successful small business solopreneurs start by managing everything on their own, and hire the rest out to contractors. When workload is too much, they progress to maybe ~5 employees. Then may feel like that is a lot of work.

The thought that not liking to manage those employees = scaling bigger must mean more commitment (time/energy) is flawed.

By that logic it would seem that someone who opens up a coffee shop that is successful, cannot open a chain or franchise it without having a proclivity and values towards managing people and it consuming them 24/7.

I would assume on the way to big enterprise, there are milestones where you put systems in place to make sure you are not overwhelmed. The bigger you get, the more systems you create. Eventually maybe it is not even you creating these systems.

You might have an increase in commitment if you define it as responsibility. Because now you will be responsible for more people and their livelihoods when you picture yourself as the "leader". But in reality that responsibility is shared. The top level management ideally i would think take more than just physical workload but also mental. Your old responsibilities are replaced with different ones, not just stacked on top of each other.

But if you are a person who can't relax even if someone is taking care of something for you...then i guess that is a different story.

 

[James Klymus]

I have always found this “Jewish View of Retirement” to be quite spot on.

They also account for a massively disproportionate amount of billionaires per capita. Why? Because they live their lives with a different foundation than most everyone else. I personally think it should be pretty much the same protocol for Christians, and it’s sad that we haven’t yet, but I digress.

Those interested, I’m pretty much aligned with this attachment.

I read that attachment, there is a lot of wisdom to be learned from the Jewish.

I realize it’s off topic to this thread, but Rabbi Simon Jacobson has some very good lectures on YouTube.

 

[monnffffiiiiiii]

How do the majority of people not understand time leverage of enterprise entrepreneurs?

How do you not understand that time leverage is difficult and painful to establish and that 99.9% of people are geared toward doing what's easy and nice?

That's why earning a lot AND having fun doing it is an exception. Most people don't like doing hard things!

Maybe it's not the case for you, and that's great! You're a part of the 0.01% aka the exception.

Don't drown in your ideology. Most people cannot be entrepreneurs. Extraordinarily, that's actually why most people are not entrepreneurs.

Most can't even do their job correctly.