RANT - This Must Be Talked About More

[Kak]

My advice is to become the expert. Always has been. I agree wholeheartedly that domain expertise is required to get past the supposed easy stuff that's loaded with competition. What I don't agree with is that domain expertise is just something you have or don't. It is built.

No one is inherently born with domain expertise. It is sought.

Don't enter an industry without dominance of that industry at least on your mind.

 

[MitchC]

Just my opinion - from my world - but it feels like if you know a thing or two about something before jumping into it, especially a technical venture, like.. learning to code or natural language processing or machine learning..

I tried jumping into those things months ago without having a solid foundation for understanding the basics of programming - when I did this - my confidence levels of what I could do with the technology in application to my industry of choice or even the pursuit of learning, was out of my reach.

So what I believe, is that having the basics down REALLY WELL creates somewhat of a feedback loop that gives you the mental confidence to say.. Ok.. This is possible.. Other people aren't just extremely gifted. This can be done by me.

To give another analogy, it's almost like.. How I noticed the amount of confidence I gained when I pursued a technical co-founder for an AI product I wanted to create. Before having him, I was thinking.. How in the world can I do this..? I need other people.

It feels like the same way with improving your education before just jumping in. The confidence, the feeling like it is possible and not out of reach for you.

And this brings me back to my belief on why some people pursue low entry barrier businesses. Because it's within the scope of what they believe they can do within their skillset. They don't pursue higher entry opportunities because they haven't exposed themselves to that world.

Again , just an opinion from a 20 year old trying to figure all this confusing stuff out.. lol!

Start smaller

Don’t start trying to build the next big app, make a few small ones, get them working, make them free, get users.

I wouldn’t say it’s passion but curiosity and interest are required for things like this or you just wouldn’t stick at it or be interested enough for long enough to see results.

Build your experience and confidence from there.

There’s a thread on here at the moment where a guy who’s never run a business wants to start selling a $1500 home appliance that will cost 10k to develop.

Sure that’s a fast lane idea and has a barrier to entry and required domain expertise, but it’s not where someone should start with no experience and no money.

He would be better off starting a business reselling existing appliances, or selling small cheap kitchen gadgets, and then grow from there.

I follow a lot of watch flippers on social media now.

Everyone sees them flipping APs and Pateks and making crazy money and wants to do the same.

They probably say oh I need the domain expertise.

How do you think you get that?

By flipping cheaper watch brands, making mistakes, making money, getting better at negotiating, building clients and before you know it you are gaining confidence and skill and working your way up in the price ranges to more and more expensive deals.

I know a few people on the forum who do ecommerce and what I notice is they all started with a cheap easy product and then took that experience and money and used it to build a better more defensible ecommerce business that required more skill and upfront investment.

I did exactly the same. I started dropshipping crap and once I had it figured out I started ordering in bulk, then I started investing in product development and branding. Now the business is quite defensible.

I didn’t take a bunch of money with no skill and expertise and expect to start a business with a high barrier to entry and domain expertise right out the gate. That just comes naturally with time. You have to start smaller and easier.

 

[Antifragile]

I'm not necessarily asking what would you do, but what would you NOT do? and What aspects would you FOCUS on in order to make yourself successful there with no prior expertise?

A different angle here...

If you want to build big things, stop thinking about building big things.

Get good at living the absolute best and most productive life.
Do things today that will make your tomorrow easier and better.

Continue to educate yourself on different subjects. Continue to experiment and test markets and listen to the feedback. Take care of your mindset, health etc. Adjust, pivot when needed, double down on what works and do more of that. Do less of what doesn't work.

Be productive, not busy. I think the real trick behind doing BIGGER things is just having the clarity of mind. Seeing the world as it is, not as we want it to be. This makes it possible to spot things others miss and fill that niche. The less we are preoccupied with "busy/unproductive" activities, the more we are free to pursue and become better at bigger things.

Domain experience comes from doing deep meaningful work. At first it feels like you know all you need by "a 3 months in the field experience..." or "a book you read...", but only later you start feeling like a fraud. That's because you didn't even know what you didn't know! Once you start getting some of that domain experience The Dunning-Kruger effect kicks in.



You need confidence to do BIG things, but with some competence, you feel like all the world's big problems in every field have been solved! Your confidence hits a low before it starts climbing again.

That's when you are most likely to start seeing things that are missing. Ideally by then you've also amassed an army of skills:

• Legal for your deal making
• Employment (hiring, firing, managing staff, scaling)
• High finance (raising funds, borrowing debt, going public etc)
• Marketing and Sales
• Execution on creating new products

With those skills and effective execution you start hitting big results quickly. That's what "Fastlane" looks like. And this is also why it's not luck anymore. You can replicate it. Sure a few things won't go as planned, but you can correct and hit hard again and again. Odds are greatly tilted in your favour.

 

[mikecarlooch]

For my case in this thread, I'd like to bring more awareness to the topic of domain expertise, and maybe have some of the heavy hitters on this forum give their take on the subject.

As a young aspiring entrepreneur, I feel this needs to be talked about more and made more clear.

I think that, since this isn't talked about much, it's the reason why there are millions of so-called "marketing agencies" and things of that nature on the internet.

And for those of us who read TMF , I'm of the belief that E(entry) in CENTS is one of the most overlooked commandments, and I think this is for the simple reason that anyone who first gets into entrepreneurship has 0 domain expertise.

What I'd like to bring attention to and ask about for those that have already made it, is the following:

There's so much emphasis on.. taking action.. getting a customer.. That.. it seems to lead everyone interested in entrepreneurship with little to no skill or specific knowledge into businesses with a supremely low entry barrier.

My question here is - how can you possibly, obey the commandment of entry without being DEEP in an industry, without having specific knowledge or domain expertise?

There is just no way that someone who "just starts a business" without domain expertise can solve some of the world's most important problems in technology for example..

It seems like to do anything at that scale, you need to be very highly educated and highly experienced in that particular sector of business, how on earth do you have a chance at competing with the guy who put themselves through the domain education phase maybe through study or through working a job in the industry if you have never done anything remotely similar?

Is an investor really going to put money behind an entrepreneur who has 0 experience or reason why they in particular should solve the problem they're trying to solve?

And yes I get it, I completely understand YOU as the entrepreneur shouldn't know everything and delegation is the game.. But how can you communicate with people you need to communicate with.. and solve the problem you're trying to solve.. If you don't know even the basics of what you need / are creating?

Isn't there a truthful statement to be made about getting a "specialized education" (I remember @Antifragile using this term in a his thread on scaling up) and becoming obsessed with the problem or industry you want to solve?

If you don't know what the customer you're solving the problem for goes through like the back of your hand, how can you possibly serve them?

I don't know.. It just feels like the advice "just get a customer" is useless without having any domain expertise.

I've taken the advice "just get a customer" lots of times when I was running "marketing agencies" that were really just a bunch of shit thrown on the wall after reading $100M offers to create "the most valuable offer possible"... More like the most bullsh*t possible.. lol.. Didn't really have a business, I just had some trust through mutual friends and got paid thousands of dollars for perceived value I thought I could deliver on at the time but really, it was just a case of lack of education.

I would love to hear some opinions on this..

RANT OVER!

 

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[Kung Fu Steve]

But the Big Boys have got make a say. @MJ DeMarco , @Antifragile , @Kak , @WJK , @Envision , @BizyDad , @Kung Fu Steve

Are you calling us fat, @Isaac Odongo ?

@mikecarlooch you're right, brother.

On the pendulum...

The only exception is what I like to call the pendulum. It tends to swing back and forth over the years. At one point the general consensus was "You MUST be an EXPERT at this thing before I'm ever to trust you!"

And the "expert" title was only given to PhDs, certificate holders, people who were "institutionally smart" ...

After so long of that, the pendulum swung the other way, and all the "gurus" of the time started to say, "well, no, that's not true. You just need to be slightly better or slightly ahead of them. you can do this!"

And that was a rallying cry for "normal people" (who were actually quite experienced but were scared they weren't) to say "You know what, you're right! I'm going to go for my dreams!"

The only problem is, that the idiots heard that message at the same time... so the pendulum swung hard the other way...

It was originally a message for highly educated highly skilled people to stop being afraid and "go for it" ... which worked until every moron with an IQ of 80 said "HEY. ME TOO. I CAN DO THE THING."

Now the pendulum has swung so hard in the other direction that literally anybody can start anything with zero experience or knowledge.

This is why you see so many business opportunities popping up that say "You, too can be a successful business owner doing X even if you've never done it before!"

On entry...

I needed $100,000 to start my dojo back in the day. Sure, some people tried to do it out of their garage but in reality, you needed to invest in a commercial space, mats, mirrors, spectator area, safety equipment, exercise equipment -- all of it. Thus... there weren't many Karate schools in the area.

Although franchises aren't looked highly upon throughout this forum, they do serve as a barrier to entry. If you want a McDonalds, you need to put up a million dollars, plus go to Hamburger University and graduate.

Could you create a burger joint cheaper than that? absolutely... but you'd better be damn good.

Someone with pink slime as a burger will run you out of town because you suck at what you do. That's what entry is all about. There's a real barrier.

On the negative side, we're not capitalists in the US anymore, we live in a cronyism society where someone can bribe the government to make sure they have no competition (Great example in the book "Shoe Dog" if you want to hear Nike's story). This applies to most industries (especially healthcare which I'm dealing with a bit right now).

There currently is no entry barrier to create a "social media management" company or "life coaching" or anything of the sort... because the pendulum has swung so hard the other way. Now any idiot with a facebook account is a life coach.

Same goes for social media. They can even look super convincing, snazzy, or whatever -- but can't produce results. It's the name of the game for them.

Just get a customer VS. ...

I've never been a believer in "just get a customer" especially for a skill you don't have.

Now... "Just get an apprenticeship" -- I can FULLY support. Go LEARN the skill from someone whose already done/doing it... learn everything you can THEN go do it on your own.

The audacity people have these days to watch a single youtube tutorial and then say "I'm going to do this business and exit for 9 figures because somebody told me I could, and it's easy" (we've seen this recently...) boggles my mind.

The amount of people on this forum who have set their goal to be a billionaire is stupid.

They don't even know what that means.

Start from the beginning. And don't be so damn egotistical thinking you have to have it all figured out by 19 years old. Take a breath. Enjoy the game. That's why we're here. It's not the event, it's the process as MJ would say.

 

[MitchC]

Native deodorant keeps being mentioned here and ironically it is the perfect example

Moiz who founded it can tell all the stories about how he wanted to change the deodorant industry and world and make everyone healthy and did all this research and became an expert in deodorant he wants but none of that is true

Moiz went on Etsy and saw what was selling

He was looking for a small product that was cheap to ship so he could make some money

He picked natural deodorant because it was small, had good margins, good repeat purchases, and was one of the most popular products on Etsy

He ordered a bunch, tested them and picked the best

He then set up a Shopify store and posted in on product hunt

He got a few 100 sales in the first day

Then he ran Facebook ads and scaled

Eventually the Etsy lady who was supplying him said this is too much for me to handle I just wanted to sell a few deodorants online not become a deodorant factory, so he bought the recipe from her and started getting it made by a manufacturer

Yes, he started and scaled his business by having a lady from etsy private label her products for him, he didn’t even know what her recipe was, and it sounds like he didn’t think to change to a manufacturer or find out what her recipe was until she said I can’t do this anymore

He didn’t run ads with a huge budget on day 1 and spend 1000s testing until they’re worked, he posted on product hunt, and probably told his friends and posted on reddit etc to get a few sales, plus he picked something that was already validated on Etsy, he didn’t invent something new that wasn’t already selling

When he sold it to proctor and gamble or whoever bought it, he didn’t even have the trademark, he had to pay someone who was squatting on it some stupid amount to get it

The logo and name is the same as a cafe local to him

The guy did not spend 6 months action faking in his room reading about deodorant recipes

He literally picked like the easiest money making idea he could find and the easiest and fastest way to market and just grew it from there

 

[Antifragile]

@mikecarlooch

Reading your rant I get it, it's a little frustrating and confusing.

1. I started in my field over a decade ago and my interest in RE spans now 20 years. Like @amp0193 said, "you don't even know what you don't know". That was true for me but today I can raise big sums of money because I have become somewhat of an expert.
2. @Black_Dragon43 hates my "slow" method of getting to wealth. For him a decade is 10x too long. And frankly he's not wrong. But isn't right either... Oh boy, it's frustratingly confusing and probably the real reason for your rant. After you gain experience you tend to get locked in. You do things a certain way because that's what you already know. It becomes harder to disrupt or do things differently. That's why it takes a younger leader to create a WeWork in real estate, not a 60 year old CEO of ____ RE Corp. Disruption happens when people try things they don’t know won’t work and then make them work.
3. Education is important but only to an extent. Like MJ’s swimming analogy, read books but to swim - get in the pool. So it makes sense to land your first client even when you aren’t an expert because … @Kak said it above already - domain expertise comes from doing! To get experience you must do. Build from there. Education is just one of the steps.

Lastly, I have a rule: “if you can’t be the best, don’t compete”.

Hope this helps.

 

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[Kak]

This is walking a tight line for many readers. This thread could talk a new entrepreneur out of big ambitions if perceived the wrong way. There is a tradition of these misconceptions here at FLF.

Starting small, while often very useful, can also be a great way to end small. Careful.

I favor a one step at a time approach. Each step might be a small win, but make no mistake the steps are aimed upward.

The biggest logical problem with anyone deciding to learn some helplessness from this thread are the under 40 entrepreneurs worth 100 million+. We can all agree that some really dumb people can get social media popular and build a 3-5 million dollar business. But crossing into the 100+ million mark there is serious expertise at play. Yet, there are a lot of them? How did that happen? Don't tell me they were born with domain expertise, yet they have it now.

The answer still is to become the expert. You don't have to wait until you are 57 to learn things. Incredibly related experience is the only experinence that matters. So some guy's 20 years as a mid-level analyst at Exxon doesn't make him better suited to be an oil magnate than a true entrepreneur like @Antifragile. So what if one career was oil adjacent and the other wasnt. The mountain moving entrepreneurial effort wins. I'd put my money on @Antifragile with 6 months of diving in to the truly relevant, over that analyist's 20 years of modestly relevant work in a heartbeat.

My point is, don't go thinking you are advancing your fastlane dreams while looking at the top floor from the ground.

 

[amp0193]

My question here is - how can you possibly, obey the commandment of entry without being DEEP in an industry, without having specific knowledge or domain expertise?

You can figure it out as you go, but you're going to learn by hard knocks.

I knew nothing about my industry, and I've spent years and six-figures in making mistakes and learning what not to do... lessons that no industry veteran would have needed to learn.

But now I know more about the customers in my niche want more than just about anyone on the planet, and although I still have knowledge gaps, we are established enough that I can hire for my deficiencies and where I lack of experience.

So to answer your question, you can break in, but you're going to pay for it in dumb mistakes because you don't know what you don't know.

But on the flip side, that ignorance can be a blessing, because it allows you to start and take action where complacent incumbents don't.


Every business should be hard though, otherwise it's indefensible from competition. And sometimes the hard part is spending 20 years upfront in school to become a PhD in Potato Science.

 

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[Kak]

Great response thanks..

Don't get me wrong - I also believe that anything can be learned, I learned that in the last few months. My real curiosity leads me to this however -

how do you define learning personally? You said that domain expertise is SOUGHT, but what does that mean?

Andy bought up just jumping in and figuring it out on the way. Others emphasize the importance of getting education through study and then applying the knowledge, etc.

You say you learned capitalization, chemicals, leadership, sales, finance.. What does that mean in your world, what was your process of learning those things?

I'm sure things like leadership, sales, and things like that.. They can be learned by DOING.. As soon as you figure out you need to hire another person.. You're naturally getting that expertise on leadership for example.. but what about your domain, your industry - chemicals? I'm sure for a subject like that it required intense study and focus to understand what they are and what they do. How would you learn by DOING for something like that?

It also makes me curious about the government contract business you had - didn't you have to spend hours and hours and days figuring out how the world of gov works and studying all of that?

I feel like learning can mean so many things.

How do I define learning? Acquiring useful knowledge and skills.

I knew I wanted to be a businessman. Always did. I went to business school. I have a business degree. Despite discovering my original naive belief that formal education was required for this, I finished.

I started business after business, mostly with the desire to learn whatever necessary to be the best I could possibly be. Yes, the businesses came first, not some expertise. Yes, many times I failed to preform to the level necessary. It's not perfect, but it's the only way to get somewhere.

My most recent building products chemical division, which we launched basically this year is a perfect example. A year ago, I knew almost nothing about polyurethane foam. Now I am connected with executives from every major foam manufacturer in the country. I'm on a first-name basis with most people that matter in this industry. We had in-person meetings with executives from three different Fortune 500 companies last month alone to discuss procurement strategy. This isn't even buying stuff we have anymore. It's shaping a global strategy individually for multi-billion dollar companies.

I wasn't just going to sit down and learn the polyurethane foam industry one day, nor is the information readily available to consume. There was no book to read or website to go to. It became an opportunity and I pursued it to the point where I was comfortable with it. I'm not comfortable unless I'm prepared. I'm prepared when I am confident that I know my capabilities and what I'm talking about.

There is no process. There is no step 1 through 10. Business is an art form, not a science. A challenge presents itself and you work to meet the challenge. Then the next challenge presents itself. And so on. Requirements are met and you move forward.

Sure I've spent hours diving in, but honestly only after the challenge presents itself. Don't be afraid of that challenge. Rise to it.

Do you think Henry Ford was confident in his ability to knowledge an automobile to a nonexistent market? Or do you think it was more a confidence to meet the challenges along the way?

Do you think Elon was confident that he could knowledge a rocket to space? Or was he more confident in his ability to take it step by step, meet the challenges and maybe get there?

I've said this on my radio show more than once. Imagine a hallway. At the end of the hallway there is a right or left turn. One leads to success. The other leads to failure. You need to go one of those directions, but you don't know which. All the conceptualization, education, and theory in the world, standing where you're standing, isn't going to get you a peek around that corner. You know what will? Walking forward.

The only way to get anywhere is to move.

 

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[Johnny boy]

I don't think anyone disagrees with you.

Yeah you should probably know how to make/deliver the thing you offer. It takes some sort of knowledge to do that.

You get a lot of knowledge in the first attempts of providing that thing, instead of reading about it.

So get out there and get some customers. Get your **** wet.

 

[Andy Black]

For my case in this thread, I'd like to bring more awareness to the topic of domain expertise, and maybe have some of the heavy hitters on this forum give their take on the subject.

As a young aspiring entrepreneur, I feel this needs to be talked about more and made more clear.

I think that, since this isn't talked about much, it's the reason why there are millions of so-called "marketing agencies" and things of that nature on the internet.

And for those of us who read TMF , I'm of the belief that E(entry) in CENTS is one of the most overlooked commandments, and I think this is for the simple reason that anyone who first gets into entrepreneurship has 0 domain expertise.

What I'd like to bring attention to and ask about for those that have already made it, is the following:

There's so much emphasis on.. taking action.. getting a customer.. That.. it seems to lead everyone interested in entrepreneurship with little to no skill or specific knowledge into businesses with a supremely low entry barrier.

My question here is - how can you possibly, obey the commandment of entry without being DEEP in an industry, without having specific knowledge or domain expertise?

There is just no way that someone who "just starts a business" without domain expertise can solve some of the world's most important problems in technology for example..

It seems like to do anything at that scale, you need to be very highly educated and highly experienced in that particular sector of business, how on earth do you have a chance at competing with the guy who put themselves through the domain education phase maybe through study or through working a job in the industry if you have never done anything remotely similar?

Is an investor really going to put money behind an entrepreneur who has 0 experience or reason why they in particular should solve the problem they're trying to solve?

And yes I get it, I completely understand YOU as the entrepreneur shouldn't know everything and delegation is the game.. But how can you communicate with people you need to communicate with.. and solve the problem you're trying to solve.. If you don't know even the basics of what you need / are creating?

Isn't there a truthful statement to be made about getting a "specialized education" (I remember @Antifragile using this term in a his thread on scaling up) and becoming obsessed with the problem or industry you want to solve?

If you don't know what the customer you're solving the problem for goes through like the back of your hand, how can you possibly serve them?

I don't know.. It just feels like the advice "just get a customer" is useless without having any domain expertise.

I've taken the advice "just get a customer" lots of times when I was running "marketing agencies" that were really just a bunch of shit thrown on the wall after reading $100M offers to create "the most valuable offer possible"... More like the most bullsh*t possible.. lol.. Didn't really have a business, I just had some trust through mutual friends and got paid thousands of dollars for perceived value I thought I could deliver on at the time but really, it was just a case of lack of education.

I would love to hear some opinions on this..

RANT OVER!

I don't quite follow why this is a rant.

Also, you seem adamant it's not possible to help people without domain expertise.

People want to hire problem solvers.

You get your domain expertise by solving problems.

Seems like a good match to me.

I took on a Google Ads client recently. Turns out there's not much volume on Google but his Facebook campaigns were more promising so I started delving into those with him. I said I was OK finishing up at the end of the month but he wanted to continue as he liked the way I think and how I'm blunt with him. Cue me starting to learn Facebook Ads.

Oh, and don't take thousands off clients if you don't think you're going to add thousands in value? I've 14 years domain expertise and wanted to run a few tests with people. I offered to do it for free for two weeks while keeping their ad spend to €5-10/day. I'm learning with their ad spend. They get to learn with a low ad spend. Seems a fair exchange to me.

What's annoying you Mike?

 

[Andy Black]

many cement businesses don't seem all that hard

That would be a problem...

 

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[Kak]

It's not fake it until you make it. It is legitimately becoming who you need to be. Make no mistake that elephant isn't actually stuck there. Neither are any of you... Well, maybe a few of you are.

 

[Johnny boy]

Native deodorant keeps being mentioned here and ironically it is the perfect example

Moiz who founded it can tell all the stories about how he wanted to change the deodorant industry and world and make everyone healthy and did all this research and became an expert in deodorant he wants but none of that is true

Moiz went on Etsy and saw what was selling

He was looking for a small product that was cheap to ship so he could make some money

He picked natural deodorant because it was small, had good margins, good repeat purchases, and was one of the most popular products on Etsy

He ordered a bunch, tested them and picked the best

He then set up a Shopify store and posted in on product hunt

He got a few 100 sales in the first day

Then he ran Facebook ads and scaled

Eventually the Etsy lady who was supplying him said this is too much for me to handle I just wanted to sell a few deodorants online not become a deodorant factory, so he bought the recipe from her and started getting it made by a manufacturer

Yes, he started and scaled his business by having a lady from etsy private label her products for him, he didn’t even know what her recipe was, and it sounds like he didn’t think to change to a manufacturer or find out what her recipe was until she said I can’t do this anymore

He didn’t run ads with a huge budget on day 1 and spend 1000s testing until they’re worked, he posted on product hunt, and probably told his friends and posted on reddit etc to get a few sales, plus he picked something that was already validated on Etsy, he didn’t invent something new that wasn’t already selling

When he sold it to proctor and gamble or whoever bought it, he didn’t even have the trademark, he had to pay someone who was squatting on it some stupid amount to get it

The logo and name is the same as a cafe local to him

The guy did not spend 6 months action faking in his room reading about deodorant recipes

He literally picked like the easiest money making idea he could find and the easiest and fastest way to market and just grew it from there

love this.

some of you just need to send it and grow a pair.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

I've taken the advice "just get a customer" lots of times when I was running "marketing agencies" that were really just a bunch of shit thrown on the wall after reading $100M offers to create "the most valuable offer possible"... More like the most bullsh*t possible.. lol..

That’s because you listen to fake gurus. Alex Hormozi is a fake guru, and he has done TREMENDOUS damage to digital marketing, and continues to do it. His success is irrelevant — what he teaches though in $100M Offers is a joke.

That’s why we have “agencies” today that tell people “we’ll add $100K to your business in 3 months or pay you $1,000”

And other such “grand slam offers”. LOL!

And this guy is supposed to teach you how to build a business? It’s more like how to build a scam, which is what his success consists of. Scams. His method for growing gyms is a scam.

Basically running ads telling people “come to our gym and take part in a 6-week challenge for FREE to get in the best shape of your life!”

Of course the RETARDS get there, and then it turns out it’s not free… they had to make a $600 deposit and if their goals were achieved at the end of 6-weeks they’d get it back… or it could go towards a payment for their membership.

LOL!

That’s called bait and switch, and it’s only a legal technicality that prevents it from being that and hence not being allowed.

That’s all “grand slam offers” and other bullshit are. Scams. Sometimes legal scams, but scams nonetheless.

But you guys, you have no experience, and Hormozi says some crap, and “uhhh millionaire!! Time to bow down and listen, F*ck!” You eat it whole!

And then you wonder why it doesn’t work. Because it’s a SCAM, that’s why!

So yes, first you have to get customers. But then, you have to deliver a good service and figure out what it takes to deliver a good, realistic service.

A big part of it is setting expectations… your customers have no idea how marketing works… so you tell them $100K in 3 months, they may have some doubts, but then that’s what they’ll expect. And it doesn’t happen, so all of them leave, and you’re back to square 1.

Building a great service isn’t easy. My own service isn’t yet great, there’s so much work left to do. And I have had customers that produced millions and $100K+ sums… and it’s still not great, because not every customer hits those numbers. Not because the service doesn’t work — I’ve gotten 100+ clients this year by running it for myself. But because people don’t understand how to apply it and even if what my team and I do for them is great, there are other issues that stop them. So you gotta fix those issues to make the service great so that pretty much everyone gets amazing results once they’re in.

Keep struggling. That’s how you’ll improve your service delivery. All the losers out there try something, it doesn’t work immediately, then they quit. You can’t get results for your customers doing marketing. Figure out WHY.

Then proceed to fix those problems.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

You decide, without current expertise in the industry, to start a business that you intend to make very large, say, deodorant (like in MJ's thread). You know nothing. I'm not necessarily asking what would you do, but what would you NOT do? and What aspects would you FOCUS on in order to make yourself successful there with no prior expertise?

If I was a 20-year old, I’d not really have a choice, since I don’t have any experience. So whatever I’d start in, I’d gain experience. Reading about it, talking to people, getting a job (only in my @Antifragile persona), finding and helping people, whatever. In a certain sense, at 20, the world is your oyster, you can do anything, precisely because you’re a beginner at everything, so you don’t lose anything by picking something else.

If I am myself today, at 30 — I’d not start a deodorant business or anything that I don’t have experience in. I have no interest to compete in something I don’t have “unfair” advantages in, to use the term @Antifragile (me) loves.

Instead, if I had to start a new business today, I’d orient myself towards something where my existing experience could help in. I’ve been in the agency world for 12-years now, give or take. If starting from scratch today, I don’t think I’d go into this world again, but rather I’d use those skills probably with some ecommerce, physical product business, maybe B2B too.

Selling to big businesses, large volume, 1 client = tons of money, biggest challenge is to sell, not to fulfil, over time it’s a matter of building your network which becomes your competitive advantage.

Yes, I’d have things to learn. And also things I already know how to do. I’d learn the ones I need step by step. For example, I have no clue how to do a pitch presentation since I never had to. I’d research it, ask people who have done it, and so on. Same for contacting those executives and so on.

In other words, pick a direction aligned with your experience (if you have any), then figure out the next step and what you need to do.

 

[Andy Black]

In other words, pick a direction aligned with your experience (if you have any), then figure out the next step and what you need to do.

I've said this before... "Pick a direction, get started, keep going."


As @Vigilante once replied in a thread that asked our best piece of business advice:

"Start."

 

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[biophase]

Good post lol, and one that should have been talked about long ago. On the forums are several '100 unsexy business ideas' threads.

All of those ideas, with the exception of lawn-mowing, require real domain expertise. In other words, for John, an admin clerk in the media industry, to quit his job and "take massive action" to start a business in the "cement furbication industry", he needs to first quit his job and take up a job in said industry, work for 10 years minimum (and another 1-4 years for relevant education if needed), go balls deep into it, another 2 - 5 years to discover a NEED (seriously fark this thing) with the expertise that he now has, before he can even get going.

Sometimes you need to be only better than someone else to help them.

Take pickleball for example, 6 months ago I was pretty lost on the court. Today I’m a decent player and often the best player on the court in my neighborhood. Other players ask me for tips to get better.

But when I play with higher level players, I’m asking them for tips.

I’m no pickleball expert but I definitely know a lot more than a newbie. Enough to teach and help them.

Depending on the domain, you can become good enough to help others quickly.

Businesswise I can tell you that I know just enough about pickleball paddle construction and what players are looking for that I could probably start a paddle company if I wanted to. Something I had no knowledge of back in May of this year.

 

[BizyDad]

Good post lol, and one that should have been talked about long ago. On the forums are several '100 unsexy business ideas' threads.

All of those ideas, with the exception of lawn-mowing, require real domain expertise. In other words, for John, an admin clerk in the media industry, to quit his job and "take massive action" to start a business in the "cement furbication industry", he needs to first quit his job and take up a job in said industry, work for 10 years minimum (and another 1-4 years for relevant education if needed), go balls deep into it, another 2 - 5 years to discover a NEED (seriously fark this thing) with the expertise that he now has, before he can even get going.

This guy apparently just read one book on "cement furbication"

Rajendra Chamaria: Daring Entrepreneur Who Built A Cement Empire In The Northeast - Forbes India

Over two decades ago, Rajendra Chamaria took a flurry of concrete steps to build a cement empire in the Northeast. The audacious gambit is now paying off for the regional Goliath—vice chairman and MD of Star Cement

www.forbesindia.com

Ok, ok, maybe because this guy comes from an entrepreneurial family you want to argue that he had domain experience...

Well these don't have 10 years of domain experience...

These scientists bonded over toilet tech. Now they're working on carbon-free cement

Breakthrough Energy Ventures and Silicon Valley venture capital firm DCVC invest $55 million in a start-up aiming to make Portland cement carbon negative.

www.cnbc.com

And here's a couple more stories with founders still under 30.

The Startups Creating Concrete Alternatives | Built In

Concrete has a massive carbon footprint, but its future doesn’t have to be set in stone.

builtin.com

You are correct in the steps (education, find a need) but several of these people weren't in the concrete industry when they started their concrete companies...

And honestly, many cement businesses don't seem all that hard to start.

10+ Best & Profitable Cement Business Ideas [2023]

Take your business to the next level with these 10+ creative and demanding ideas for cement businesses. Expert advice and top tips to help you succeed. Discover the untapped potential of the cement industry today.

www.newfoundr.com

I have a client in the cement industry. We've turned off their ads because they get more business than they can handle.

Less and less people want to run this kind of business.

I bet I could get domain experience by spending a weekend on YouTube. And after this thread, I kind of want to...

Just to show how easy it can be.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

You decide, without current expertise in the industry, to start a business that you intend to make very large, say, deodorant (like in MJ's thread). You know nothing. I'm not necessarily asking what would you do, but what would you NOT do? and What aspects would you FOCUS on in order to make yourself successful there with no prior expertise?

You're asking what weapon to take with you in the forest and insist on knowing the dangers in the forest before stepping inside.

If you have no clue what I'm referencing, you'll find the story in Unscripted (Book 2).

 

[machinistguy]

This is what I'm trying to understand. How those huge companies start, and how they eventually become worth a hundred million from nothing. Some of the "small" stuff seems like it's leading to a perpetual couple hundred grand a year as a goal or something like that. How are the BIG things started.. That's my interest..

Your post reminds me of Peter Thiel's Zero to One. If you're trying to copy how other companies became massive you'll fail because each situation is unique. You don't have the same strengths/weaknesses as the other founder, not the same industry, not the same customers, not the same period in history, etc... Make your own decisions

"All happy companies are different."
"If you are copying these guys, you aren’t learning from them."

As for the starting small, you're goal is to achieve a productocracy (MJ)/monopoly(Thiel). You can't achieve that in a massive market if you have no knowledge or resources, but you can achieve that in a small market the big boys don't bother with. So the goal is to dominate small then scale.

 

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[Andy Black]

If you want to build big things, stop thinking about building big things.

You reminded me of this:

Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas

www.paulgraham.com

 

[Andy Black]

From ChatGPT after inputting AF's response:

1. Learning the Fundamentals (Education): Initially, you're investing in education by taking in knowledge. This step provides you with a solid foundation of theoretical knowledge, teaching you the principles, tools, and concepts related to your desired field.
2. Getting in the Field (Doing): However, domain expertise doesn't stop at just acquiring knowledge. To truly become an expert, you need to apply what you've learned in practical scenarios. This means working on real-world projects, utilizing the skills you've gained, and actively engaging with the industry.

I disagree with the order here. It makes sense that ChatGPT regurgitated that since it's the way school and college taught us. Solid foundation? Why not just start and figure it out as you go?

 

[biophase]

This is what I'm trying to understand. How those huge companies start, and how they eventually become worth a hundred million from nothing. Some of the "small" stuff seems like it's leading to a perpetual couple hundred grand a year as a goal or something like that. How are the BIG things started.. That's my interest..

I'm showering you with a lot of questions Kyle.. sorry lol:

It seems you're a bit iffy with how the thread is turning out with those saying to start small.

I know there are no 1-10 steps in business like you said, those 1-10 businesses are just undifferentiated commodity BS.

But to drive it home for us young people who want to build something big, let me put you in a scenario.

You decide, without current expertise in the industry, to start a business that you intend to make very large, say, deodorant (like in MJ's thread). You know nothing. I'm not necessarily asking what would you do, but what would you NOT do? and What aspects would you FOCUS on in order to make yourself successful there with no prior expertise?

Tagging @Antifragile @Kung Fu Steve @WestCoast @amp0193 @Johnny boy @Andy Black @biophase @BizyDad @Envision @MJ DeMarco and others to also make a response to this prompt (only if you want to of course, I'm just very curious and I'm sure others following this thread are too!)

I would suggest listening to podcasts on how Native deodorant started. This is exactly what you’re asking

Just some quotes below from other websites.

“When Native founder Moiz Ali randomly checked out the ingredient label on his antiperspirant, he couldn’t have known that it would be a pivotal moment in his life. What began as a curiosity about aluminum turned into a mission to make clean deodorant that could go head to head—err, pit to pit—with antiperspirants.”

“It isn’t rocket science, but boy did it work. By his own admission, Moiz knew almost nothing about the deodorant space when he founded Native - but he did know a little about business, and a lot about people.

Rather than exhaust time and money on lengthy R&D, he figured the quickest way to find out if there was a market for his product was to try and sell it. To pull this off, speed of execution was key, and Native’s profile as a lean, frugal, early stage business fitted this necessity perfectly. They got into operation mode from day one and put an early version of their natural, toxin free, ethical deodorant in front of the market.”

 

[Robdavis]

For my case in this thread, I'd like to bring more awareness to the topic of domain expertise, and maybe have some of the heavy hitters on this forum give their take on the subject.

As a young aspiring entrepreneur, I feel this needs to be talked about more and made more clear.

I think that, since this isn't talked about much, it's the reason why there are millions of so-called "marketing agencies" and things of that nature on the internet.

And for those of us who read TMF , I'm of the belief that E(entry) in CENTS is one of the most overlooked commandments, and I think this is for the simple reason that anyone who first gets into entrepreneurship has 0 domain expertise.

What I'd like to bring attention to and ask about for those that have already made it, is the following:

There's so much emphasis on.. taking action.. getting a customer.. That.. it seems to lead everyone interested in entrepreneurship with little to no skill or specific knowledge into businesses with a supremely low entry barrier.

My question here is - how can you possibly, obey the commandment of entry without being DEEP in an industry, without having specific knowledge or domain expertise?

There is just no way that someone who "just starts a business" without domain expertise can solve some of the world's most important problems in technology for example..

It seems like to do anything at that scale, you need to be very highly educated and highly experienced in that particular sector of business, how on earth do you have a chance at competing with the guy who put themselves through the domain education phase maybe through study or through working a job in the industry if you have never done anything remotely similar?

Is an investor really going to put money behind an entrepreneur who has 0 experience or reason why they in particular should solve the problem they're trying to solve?

And yes I get it, I completely understand YOU as the entrepreneur shouldn't know everything and delegation is the game.. But how can you communicate with people you need to communicate with.. and solve the problem you're trying to solve.. If you don't know even the basics of what you need / are creating?

Isn't there a truthful statement to be made about getting a "specialized education" (I remember @Antifragile using this term in a his thread on scaling up) and becoming obsessed with the problem or industry you want to solve?

If you don't know what the customer you're solving the problem for goes through like the back of your hand, how can you possibly serve them?

I don't know.. It just feels like the advice "just get a customer" is useless without having any domain expertise.

I've taken the advice "just get a customer" lots of times when I was running "marketing agencies" that were really just a bunch of shit thrown on the wall after reading $100M offers to create "the most valuable offer possible"... More like the most bullsh*t possible.. lol.. Didn't really have a business, I just had some trust through mutual friends and got paid thousands of dollars for perceived value I thought I could deliver on at the time but really, it was just a case of lack of education.

I would love to hear some opinions on this..

RANT OVER!

This is an idea that I have thought of a bit over the past couple of months or so. I think that there are three key points that I would like to make.


1) You don't have to be the best in your industry to get started.

When you get started, in theory the top performing companies in your industry are your competitors. This is true, but you can usually allow them to offer a premium service for a higher price and work your way into an industry by offering a lower value add option for a lower price.

This lower value add option has the benefit of requiring less skill, less domain knowledge and less startup capital to create. It usually has the downside of having lower margins and lower total revenue possibilities.



2) Green Dot Theory is IMO very relevant here. You don't have to stick with the same product or service for your entire time in an industry.

A few months ago, Johnny boy recommended this video on "Green Dot Theory". It clearly shows that you typically shouldn't stick with the same product or service as you "grow" (I'm thinking primarily in terms of capability here rather than revenue).
The more you learn about your industry or domain, the more opportunities you will discover and the more corporate capability you will have to offer a solution to those opportunities.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2m6JkJvv4w


I suggest that you watch this a few times and internalise it. It isn't complicated, but in my limited experience it is powerful.



3) When you quit, don't lose your gained industry expertise.

One of the things that I see other newbies around here doing and I'm not sure that it is right, is when a business doesn't work out for them, they often start something new in a different domain or industry.

This has the effect of meaning, that every time they start a new business they start from scratch, the absolute beginning.
I reckon if they tried different businesses in the same domain or industry that their domain knowledge would grow from attempt to attempt and so they would actually be getting better with each attempt that they made.

I can give you a very simple example of this from my short experience so far. When I started with my specialised labour, I didn't sell anything for ten weeks. I realised that I wasn't competitive and I couldn't see a path to becoming competitive. So I quit.
But when I started again, (that was later the same day) instead of doing something different in a new domain, I just decided to do the same thing on a different online platform. This meant that much of what I had learned over the past ten weeks I could use. I was then able to get my first sale after a couple more weeks. So I have limited evidence that this approach can be useful.



Note that typically, when you start, you will be violating or bending the Commandment of Entry. You do something with low barriers to entry because you are a newbie. But if you follow Green Dot Theory then you will find that as you take new opportunities, the barriers to entry rise and you satisfy the Commandment of Entry increasingly well. This effect doesn't have to be an accident, you can target it deliberately as someone who believes in Fastlane Ideology / Methodology.

Just my 2c.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

@Black_Dragon43 do you disagree with the above? I've heard you say that there are no more scam agencies, or something to that effect. I'd be interested to hear your take on this because you work with more agencies than i do.

I don’t remember the context or if I ever said that, but, for the record, I think the vast majority of agencies without any consistent track record are scams. What I usually say is that the agency world is hyper competitive AND full of scams, which is why buyer skepticism is super high and it’s very hard to stand out.

Agencies that are not scams usually have very high retention rates — meaning YEARS. They also tend to work with bigger and bigger clients over time, and their main priority is upgrading the quality of their clients.

Most agencies though are happy to keep customers for 3-6 months lol. If you always need new customers, you don’t have a business, you’re just running a racket. And most freelancers/agencies/etc. ARE running a racket, even those that do have some results.

Keeping customers for that long isn’t just about immediate results (everyone, and by that I mean real businesses, knows marketing isn’t certain), it’s also largely about your ability to be honest with clients, set clear expectations, and provide guidance and education.

 

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[amp0193]

All of those ideas, with the exception of lawn-mowing, require real domain expertise. In other words, for John, an admin clerk in the media industry, to quit his job and "take massive action" to start a business in the "cement furbication industry", he needs to first quit his job and take up a job in said industry, work for 10 years minimum (and another 1-4 years for relevant education if needed), go balls deep into it, another 2 - 5 years to discover a NEED (seriously fark this thing) with the expertise that he now has, before he can even get going.

The "Fast" in Milionaire Fastlane is "faster than working for 40 years, saving your pennies, and retiring at 65".

10-20 years to achieve financial freedom (and a really cool life) is pretty damn fast in comparison.

Spring-boarding off relevant work experience is a great way to get into business. You use what you know.

 

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[mikecarlooch]

All in all what I've learned here -

Pick an industry, learn the foundations of that industry, and start using what you learn in practical scenarios where people are involved, based on that you gain domain expertise, and with that ideas that have higher entry barriers that you can actually execute on because you've put in the time of applying your knowledge whether in a job or helping others with it.

 

[AceVentures]

You can also absorb tremendous insight by inheriting somebody else's domain expertise.

With a few phone calls, lunch invitations and on the job shadowing with the right people you can elevate your domain expertise in a short period of time with actionable insights that don't paralyze you.

I throw money at things I want to learn. I'll find somebody that does a thing the way I love, and then I pay them for their time and bombard them with questions. I then take those learnings and insights and throw them at another expert in another consultation to compound what I learned from the first.

This practice helps me frame the problem I'm trying to solve without having to start at 0 by finding and reading random books and podcasts and blogs. I ultimately avoid a whole lot of noise that could easily lead me astray.

 

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