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Morals of business and selling

RayAndré

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So I've been trying to figure this one out...
I know its a "mindset" or "belief system" issue, and I've been trying to crack it in my head, but could use some help.

It seems that no matter what business you're in, no matter how valuable your product is, no matter how much it actually helps people...somewhere there is "waste".
  • You sell Tesla cars to save the environment...YES the buyers have a low carbon footprint but the Tesla factories and manufacturing process probably do some environmentally shady shit to bring them to market.
  • You sell people on [starting their own business, inventing their own products, trading the stock market, etc]...YES those who do can change their life, but most probably won't get it.
  • You're a life coach and sell people on your books, seminars, coaching, etc...YES some people will have amazing results, but most will simply not do the work required.
  • Or (not to make this a religious argument by any means) you're God or the church or whatever, and tell everyone to worship you and tithe...but again most people just aren't going to live their lives fully according to your dogma and aren't going to reap the full rewards compared to if they did.

It seems that this affects everyone and everything!

So my question is...how do you justify entering into business selling products when you know the "goodness efficiency" of it is going to be low. You know most people who buy your products aren't going to get the most benefit. You know there is going to be some "waste"...and that waste is your gain.


Side note:
(As an employee, or perhaps a provider of some services, this isn't as much the case. Since your time is directly going to producing value. Maybe you the employee are "wasting" your time/life. Or you slack off a bit on the job and so you're "wasting" some of the company's money.)


Anyway, this has been rolling around in my head a while and I haven't yet flipped the switch on this one. But I know I can somehow.
Some have suggested:
  • Well you do the thing for the few that do get the most benefit. The few that do make up for the many that don't.
  • Maybe sell higher priced products/services so you weed out all the "many" that aren't going to be dedicated to getting the full benefit.

Any more ideas, thoughts, whatever, I'm open to hearing and would love a discussion about this. Especially from those already running successful businesses.
 
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Johnny boy

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Great post. It's a problem a lot of people struggle with even if they can't put their finger on it exactly like how you have.

Here's what most people do

1. Stay out of the business world and act morally superior for being average

Here's what some people do

2. Cognitive dissonance sets in and people rationalize why they aren't selfish and become blind to the truth about their business (this annoys the F*ck out of me)

Or, you could...

3. Accept its okay to be the "selfish a**hole" and become honest with yourself and admit what you really want is to be successful.

I'm sick of hearing people talk about how their business is so ethical, virtue signaling just to make people feel "comfortable" about their business model.

I used to sell cars. They would tell us all sorts of shit about why we're actually helping people. Uh, no, the point is to sell a car, not help a person. The point is to make a lot of money. It's not to be a "consultant" for people that walk through the door.

I think a lot of my success is because I spend 0 time virtue signaling, convincing myself or others, or struggling with cognitive dissonance.

If you need permission, here it is. You're allowed to make money. We live in a free market. As long as you don't break the law, and people give you their money using their own free will, you earned it. Now go kick a$$ and have an awesome life. Never feel bad for it.

If you STILL need to rationalize why it's moral to be in business...

You need money to live, grow, and make your dreams come true.

These people that will pay you, whether it's a boss, a customer, a client, etc....

If you were about to miss a car payment, get evicted from your home, or not have enough money for food, would these people come save you? Or would they say "ohh...that's tough, I hope you figure it out!"...

As much as you'd like to think your boss, customers, clients, or anyone else who isn't your family and best friends would come save you, they wouldn't. They don't care.

You are not their mommy, your job is to go get the money you want. Nobody is going to do it for you because no one wants you to win more than they want themselves to win.
 

Jon L

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As an employee, I guarantee you're wasting time, too. No one is a perfect employee. You are doing things that contribute to the overall suckiness of the company you work for. You're also enabling other people to do the same.

Life is messy. No person, company, or other group is perfect. The goal for all of us is to do something that incrementally improves life here on planet earth. Take the electric car for example. Sure, its not 100% perfect, environmentally, but its a whole lot better than gas powered cars.
 

WabiSabi

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You have a right to exist and survive. When both people agree to a transaction, both people should benefit. BOTH lives should be made better because of the exchange. If you satisfy this criteria you should have no qualms about it. For grey things, If your goals are righteous the ends justify the means.

Some people are going to piss their money away no matter what. Alot of the time they're just ignorant. Some people use this as an excuse to fleece them, but it also presents an opportunity to educate them. Some can be saved, some can't, but I don't waste much energy worrying about strangers, unless it's my business.

As much as you'd like to think your boss, customers, clients, or anyone else who isn't your family and best friends would come save you, they wouldn't. They don't care.

People operate from a position of mutual gain, if you give them reason to they will. Most people just expect unconditional support when that's just not human nature. I agree most people tend to overestimate their worth to others.
 
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Ocean Man

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REWIRE YOUR BRAIN
You're not going to get anything accomplished with that sort of mindset @RayAndré. If you think business is morally unethical, then don't do it. Because you're not going to succeed in something you think is wrong.

You need to believe in two things:
  1. You are in business (all-the-time, even as an employee).​
  2. The occupation of business is moral, noble, and worthy.​
You are in business (all-the-time, even as an employee)
You need to start thinking of yourself as a business. Even as an employee, you're offering services to somebody. An agreed upon exchange. You get money for solving a problem or adding value in someone's life. You gave them what they needed and they paid you for it as a value voucher.

For example, I may work at Starbucks as a barista and get paid by the hour. And when see myself as a business, I see it in terms of I'm offering to my employer (who I'm conducting business with, my skills of brewing coffee.) They find my offering or skills useful/valuable/solves their want or need and in exchange they give me money for it.

You're always in business.

The occupation of business is moral, noble, and worthy
The way I see it is that I'm helping people. I'm giving people what they want, I'm solving their problems, and I'm adding value into their life. If I have employees, I'm giving them a job, I'm training them, I'm giving them money so that they can support themselves, and I'm helping them grow.

Whenever I conduct business, I think that I'm providing a need to somebody and what I'm doing is right. Otherwise, they wouldn't give me their money if they didn't want it. That would be robbery. The only time I get money, is if there was a fair exchange where both sides agreed to do the exchange and found it mutually beneficial. (Re-read the words in bold.)

Sure there are bad apples in the bunch who do exploitation or this and that. And it may or may not get to them in the future. But if I spend all my time thinking about what other people are doing, how am I supposed to help others and provide value?

If you think making money is evil and that business is morally evil, you're never going to make it.

Rewire your brain.

A book that I recommend reading: Thou Shall Prosper: Ten Commandments for Making Money by Daniel Lapin
 

RayAndré

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Rewire your brain.
I appreciate the detailed response @Ocean Man. Believe me, I've been doing a LOT of brain rewiring lately. And this is my latest sticking point, hence me reaching out for input :)
I'll definitely check out the book :thumbsup:


You are doing things that contribute to the overall suckiness of the company you work for.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Or, you could...

3. Accept its okay to be the "selfish a**hole" and become honest with yourself and admit what you really want is to be successful.
haha, yes, this. accepting being an "a**hole" is something I've kinda struggled with in general in areas where it would be beneficial to do so :happy:

in this case though...re-reading this made me think I'd get/feel judged by my mom for taking the selfish a**hole approach to business. That plus I can probably find something "wrong" with just about any business (like the few examples previously mentioned)...which is NOT a good state of mind to be in.

Like @Ocean Man said...got to rewire the brain there.
 
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Black_Dragon43

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So my question is...how do you justify entering into business selling products when you know the "goodness efficiency" of it is going to be low. You know most people who buy your products aren't going to get the most benefit. You know there is going to be some "waste"...and that waste is your gain.


Side note:
(As an employee, or perhaps a provider of some services, this isn't as much the case. Since your time is directly going to producing value. Maybe you the employee are "wasting" your time/life. Or you slack off a bit on the job and so you're "wasting" some of the company's money.)
The paradoxical thing for me is that you don’t see the same problem for an employee... An employee does exactly the same thing as a business. They provide a service or product to a third-party that the third party finds valueable.

Your profile tells me you make mobile apps. So, say you make a mobile app for an employer, and the app totally flops... aren’t you in the same situation where you had an app design agency and had your team design and build the app after you advised the new owner about it? Clearly the two are identical. So here’s the thing: there is no guarantee that whatever work you do will end up being OBJECTIVELY valueable. So you can’t judge yourself, either as an employee or a biz by that standard. Instead, you want to judge yourself by how good of a job you have done... ie, are you dedicated to your employer’s or your customer’s success? Have you done everything in your power, with the correct and honest intentions?

Now, where the problem seems to come in, is when you LIE to people, knowingly, about what will happen and the results. I had an incident right on this forum where I picked on quite a prominent member here for doing just that. I do have quite a big problem with that, since it destroys trust in the marketplace and harms both buyers and sellers. The solution? Don’t lie. You can say that someone COULD become a millionaire by working with you, for example, but not that they will become a millionaire, guaranteed. The latter is an absurd lie.

So to answer your question: the “goodness efficiency” is the wrong criteria for judging the morality of a business. Nobody can foresee with 100% certainty (or anywhere near to that), what will happen. And no business, alone, can be responsible for the objective success or failure of its product or service. I sell marketing services for example... i know that there are no guarantees... someone could buy my services and fail. Marketing isn’t a hard science like physics. There are no certainties. So if my client fails, it doesn’t mean that it’s because of me. There are better criteria to judge myself by: do I have sufficient knowledge? Did I make the best I could of the situation? Did I have the right intentions? Was I honest? And so on...
 
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Rabby

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Great post. It's a problem a lot of people struggle with even if they can't put their finger on it exactly like how you have.

Here's what most people do

1. Stay out of the business world and act morally superior for being average

Here's what some people do

2. Cognitive dissonance sets in and people rationalize why they aren't selfish and become blind to the truth about their business (this annoys the F*ck out of me)

Or, you could...

3. Accept its okay to be the "selfish a**hole" and become honest with yourself and admit what you really want is to be successful.

I'm sick of hearing people talk about how their business is so ethical, virtue signaling just to make people feel "comfortable" about their business model.

I used to sell cars. They would tell us all sorts of shit about why we're actually helping people. Uh, no, the point is to sell a car, not help a person. The point is to make a lot of money. It's not to be a "consultant" for people that walk through the door.

I think a lot of my success is because I spend 0 time virtue signaling, convincing myself or others, or struggling with cognitive dissonance.

If you need permission, here it is. You're allowed to make money. We live in a free market. As long as you don't break the law, and people give you their money using their own free will, you earned it. Now go kick a$$ and have an awesome life. Never feel bad for it.

If you STILL need to rationalize why it's moral to be in business...

You need money to live, grow, and make your dreams come true.

These people that will pay you, whether it's a boss, a customer, a client, etc....

If you were about to miss a car payment, get evicted from your home, or not have enough money for food, would these people come save you? Or would they say "ohh...that's tough, I hope you figure it out!"...

As much as you'd like to think your boss, customers, clients, or anyone else who isn't your family and best friends would come save you, they wouldn't. They don't care.

You are not their mommy, your job is to go get the money you want. Nobody is going to do it for you because no one wants you to win more than they want themselves to win.

The thing is, getting what you want, while simultaneously delivering to someone else what they want, is virtuous. You don't have to signal because you played your proper role. You "helped" two people... you needed money, they needed a used car. The world is better, two people now want for less.
 

Kung Fu Steve

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“Thank God for my customers. They buy my products before they are perfected.” - Henry Ford

Everywhere you go, you'll see critics.

In today's environment, people will judge you, your product, your business, your lifestyle even if they've never met you.

Most people say they are skeptical -- there's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of skepticism, but healthy dose is much different than gutless.

It takes no guts to be skeptical, to not try, to not go, to criticize, and judge. It takes no guts for someone to tell you all the things that are wrong with something instead of the courage to say what's right.

BUT... to clarify and verify... are you saying you're having this internal dialogue about the quality of your stuff... or is somebody else telling you how you're an evil capitalist pig who doesn't give a shit about the environment, or people, or whatever?
 

Rabby

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  • You sell people on [starting their own business, inventing their own products, trading the stock market, etc]...YES those who do can change their life, but most probably won't get it.
  • You're a life coach and sell people on your books, seminars, coaching, etc...YES some people will have amazing results, but most will simply not do the work required.
  • Or (not to make this a religious argument by any means) you're God or the church or whatever, and tell everyone to worship you and tithe...but again most people just aren't going to live their lives fully according to your dogma and aren't going to reap the full rewards compared to if they did.

Before I knew there was a philosopher named Epictetus who originally said this, I had already started living by it:

"There is only one way to happiness and that is to cease worrying about things which are beyond the power of our will."

You can't control what they do. Your part is your part, their part is theirs. Anything else leads to neuroticism.
 
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lewj24

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You justify it by understanding that this is just human nature.

People buy a Lambo and it sits in their garage 99% of the time.

Gyms makes tons of money on people not coming in but still paying the monthly fees.

How many times have you bought something and not used it? It's just how we are as people. You can't avoid that. This isn't a moral issue at all because you are giving the customer what they payed for. Just because they aren't using doesn't make you a bad person.
 

Andy Black

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“Money is proof you helped your fellow man.” (MJ DeMarco)

Does that help?
 

Johnny boy

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The thing is, getting what you want, while simultaneously delivering to someone else what they want, is virtuous. You don't have to signal because you played your proper role. You "helped" two people... you needed money, they needed a used car. The world is better, two people now want for less.
Yeah but I want to make a massive commission and they want to purchase the car with as little profit for the dealership as possible. And a large percentage of my commissions came from uneducated people with a poor ability to negotiate or had a personality that was too agreeable. This is what I'm talking about. If I was there to "help" them whatsoever then I would give them a discount without even asking.

I don't understand how people can not see the world as having losers and winners. Lions and zebras. The lion doesn't have an existential crisis trying to justify eating a zebra. It just eats the food it wants to eat. It doesn't try to set up a "win-win" for the zebra.
 
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Johnny boy

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I appreciate the detailed response @Ocean Man. Believe me, I've been doing a LOT of brain rewiring lately. And this is my latest sticking point, hence me reaching out for input :)
I'll definitely check out the book :thumbsup:



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



haha, yes, this. accepting being an "a**hole" is something I've kinda struggled with in general in areas where it would be beneficial to do so :happy:

in this case though...re-reading this made me think I'd get/feel judged by my mom for taking the selfish a**hole approach to business. That plus I can probably find something "wrong" with just about any business (like the few examples previously mentioned)...which is NOT a good state of mind to be in.

Like @Ocean Man said...got to rewire the brain there.
You would likely be judged by your mom. I also get judged by my mom. She is a normal person who will never build anything great (my mom idk about yours). That's what she chose, I chose different.
 

Walter Hay

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If there was no such thing as business for profit, we would all still be hunter gatherers.

I think RayAndré that you have already found your way out of this dilemma. You seem to know what is right and what is wrong. In my opinion it all boils down to personal ethics.

In my early life as an employee I worked as the accountant for a new car dealership that sold 4 different marques. The salesmen were the typical con men who gave that profession a bad name. They knew almost nothing about the cars they were selling, and when they discovered that in my spare time I had learned every detail about each make and model, they called for me to answer prospects questions.

The upshot was that the boss gave me permission to attend to prospects when the professionals were not there or were busy. I outsold the con men without using their tactics. On one notable occasion a prospect came in, and I was the only one available to attend to him.

He drooled over one model in the showroom, and was disappointed that there was not a late model used one for him to buy. I sent him to a competitor just a few miles away. The boss was horrified. He said
"They don' t have one either - now you have lost him." He scoffed at my reply that the prospect had said that if he decided to buy a new one he would come back to me.

Sure enough he was back in less than an hour and came straight to me to make the purchase. No cons, just genuine help to ensure that he knew what he was getting, and to reinforce his desire for that vehicle.

My sales career, both as an employee and in my own businesses (excuse the boasting, but I think that compound doubling of my employer's sales for 3 consecutive years should excuse a little boast) has been stellar.

My self-imposed rules:
1. Don't waste a prospect's time.
2. Don't sell. Instead, help them to understand the benefits of a)the product and b) buying from me.
3. Don't even try if the product is not going to be of real benefit to the buyer.

P.S. Because I was only the accountant and not a pro salesman I only received the equivalent of a spotters fee - not a full commission.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can't resist adding a Bible quote written about 3000 years ago, because it shows that devious behavior can work both ways:
Proverbs 20:14 “It’s no good, it’s no good!” says the buyer— then goes off and boasts about the purchase.

Walter
 

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You provide something someone wants to buy

They buy it....

No more alarm clocks, crappy bosses, stinky coworkers with bad breath, 30 minute lunch breaks, fear of getting fired, being away from home 50+ hours a week > commutes in traffic/public transportation (just thinking about being on a bus freaks me out) not being able to enjoy a week day without being tired as hell, not having the free time to do something fun, dreading getting up in the morning, being forced to eat breakfast and shower in the morning at some ridiculous time.....being stressed about being late to a place you don't want to be!?!?!? Always thought that was a funny one....

CRAP, I'm late to a place I DONT wanna be! I better hurryup so I can get there and dream about going home for the remaining 8 hours!:rofl:
 
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fridge

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My self-imposed rules:

2. Don't sell. Instead, help them to understand the benefits of a)the product and b) buying from me.


Walter

Beautiful! I'm currently reading "How to win friends & influence people" and that book goes into great detail about this rule. Always put it in terms of how the other person can benefit -- people naturally have their own self-interests at heart and tend to perk up when they hear about how they'll get a benefit out of a transaction.
 

RayAndré

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The paradoxical thing for me is that you don’t see the same problem for an employee... An employee does exactly the same thing as a business. They provide a service or product to a third-party that the third party finds valueable.
Yea...reading back over what I wrote, I totally see how I "waste" resources from the company I work for. Am I always working at 100% output every hour that I bill my client? Nope.
When I was an employee too, I used to feel kinda bad for taking a little extra time getting snacks while in the office, or taking time away during the day for doctors appointments and such.
So yes, I am currently a non-efficient (business).
I'll meditate more on this one and why I feel there is a difference.

Don’t lie. You can say that someone COULD become a millionaire by working with you, for example, but not that they will become a millionaire, guaranteed. The latter is an absurd lie.
This. Not that I lie with my business...but it is somewhat close to the idea of "selling the dream". Well, at least marketing like that is probably going to be the best way to get people in the door. I guess I need to be more okay with saying things like "you could"...which is true. And accept that not everyone is going to "get it".
EDIT: Maybe I'm too used to the "sell the dream" type marketing messaging in this space. And if I can market with messaging more tailored to the actual value underlying the products that would be easier. Maybe wouldn't convert as well...but who knows until you try.


“Thank God for my customers. They buy my products before they are perfected.” - Henry Ford

Everywhere you go, you'll see critics.

In today's environment, people will judge you, your product, your business, your lifestyle even if they've never met you.

Most people say they are skeptical -- there's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of skepticism, but healthy dose is much different than gutless.

It takes no guts to be skeptical, to not try, to not go, to criticize, and judge. It takes no guts for someone to tell you all the things that are wrong with something instead of the courage to say what's right.

BUT... to clarify and verify... are you saying you're having this internal dialogue about the quality of your stuff... or is somebody else telling you how you're an evil capitalist pig who doesn't give a shit about the environment, or people, or whatever?
haha! love that Ford quote, thanks for that one :)
Critics everywhere...definitely. And in this case, I'm my own critic.
So to answer your question Steve, its a mix of the two. I'm having this internal dialogue about being an evil capitalist who doesn't give a shit about the environment, or people, or whatever. :happy:
Like most beliefs, its really just other peoples' voices I've internalized over time. And this specific one runs DEEP. I'll get it though, this thread is helping.


"There is only one way to happiness and that is to cease worrying about things which are beyond the power of our will."

You can't control what they do. Your part is your part, their part is theirs. Anything else leads to neuroticism.
Mmm, I like this. I know I worry a lot. (And according to the Big Five personality test, I'm high in Withdrawal. "They have higher than average levels of doubt and worry, become embarrassed easily, are self-conscious and strongly tend to get discouraged in the face of threat and punishment.")
Maybe I feel some sort of threat or punishment...hmm...



You justify it by understanding that this is just human nature.
People buy a Lambo and it sits in their garage 99% of the time.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Actually yea that makes sense.
 
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Timmy C

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You should be adding value and helping people in your business.

It doesn't mean that you don't have a profit motive though.

I got this message yesterday.

''Have checked out your work. Keep going at it! You’ve impacted others' lives more than you can imagine!''

Now that's some awesome stuff right there.
 
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RayAndré

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I don't understand how people can not see the world as having losers and winners. Lions and zebras. The lion doesn't have an existential crisis trying to justify eating a zebra. It just eats the food it wants to eat. It doesn't try to set up a "win-win" for the zebra.
ha! love this. yes, be more lion.

You would likely be judged by your mom. I also get judged by my mom. She is a normal person who will never build anything great (my mom idk about yours). That's what she chose, I chose different.
Yea...got to face the facts I guess. My mom's a teacher.


Thanks Walter. Yea I just know that I've been the too-nice (and too-critical) guy for most of my life, and that type of mentality is now an obstacle in business. So I feel I need to redefine my ethics in business, that aren't as angelic as I used to think. Or rather, that re-define "angelic".
You provide something someone wants to buy

They buy it....

No more alarm clocks, crappy bosses, stinky coworkers with bad breath, 30 minute lunch breaks, fear of getting fired, being away from home 50+ hours a week > commutes in traffic/public transportation (just thinking about being on a bus freaks me out) not being able to enjoy a week day without being tired as hell, not having the free time to do something fun, dreading getting up in the morning, being forced to eat breakfast and shower in the morning at some ridiculous time.....being stressed about being late to a place you don't want to be!?!?!? Always thought that was a funny one....

CRAP, I'm late to a place I DONT wanna be! I better hurryup so I can get there and dream about going home for the remaining 8 hours!:rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 

Walter Hay

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I think another factor to take into account is that people don't see as much value in something they get for nothing as they do in something they pay for.

That was very much my experience in my industrial chemical business. If I gave them a free sample, most often they didn't even bother to test it, but if I charged them for it they made sure they tried it.

Walter
 

Rabby

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Yeah but I want to make a massive commission and they want to purchase the car with as little profit for the dealership as possible. And a large percentage of my commissions came from uneducated people with a poor ability to negotiate or had a personality that was too agreeable. This is what I'm talking about. If I was there to "help" them whatsoever then I would give them a discount without even asking.

I don't understand how people can not see the world as having losers and winners. Lions and zebras. The lion doesn't have an existential crisis trying to justify eating a zebra. It just eats the food it wants to eat. It doesn't try to set up a "win-win" for the zebra.

Ah, I see. You're right about the commission, it's your job to make money for yourself as a sales person. There is negative virtue in harming yourself.

So if you give away product at cost, or discount without reason, and make no money, it's just as despicable as defrauding someone or intimidating them out of money. Let's be clear: allowing yourself to be ruined due to a weak will (and further, falsely justifying it as morality), is depravity.

You're there to exchange a car for money, such that you prefer the money to keeping the car, and they prefer the car to keeping the money. That's how you help them. You don't help them rip you off by throwing your own money away.

Nobody should be duped or defrauded in a transaction. Not you, or them. But that doesn't mean they pay the lowest price they could possibly pay; if they're happy with the price and you're willing to exchange the goods, by definition it's a fair deal.

Now... if you tilt the balance in your favor using deceit, for example by telling them the car has 50,000 miles when it has 150,000, or that it's a V8 turbo when it's actually a straight 4, that's also depravity. An honest transaction doesn't harm anyone, even if the price is high... the way I see it, there's no zebra.

You can imagine it as lions and zebras though, and I get that that works as a symbol for aggressive pursuit of your goals. But in reality you didn't eat the people you sold cars to. You just sold them cars. They're doing fine with those cars, driving to work or whatever. If they could have paid less by spending weeks going to more car places, and bullshitting until you dropped the price just to get rid of them, it doesn't matter. They didn't want to do it... they would rather have an easy time and pay more for the car. Or they don't care enough about the price to spend time and effort on research, haggling, and being willing to walk away. They needed a car, you sold it, they got it, you made money. If you didn't lie to them about the car, and you didn't sacrifice your own happiness in submission to them, it's a virtuous transaction.
 
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Rabby

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2. Don't sell. Instead, help them to understand the benefits of a)the product and b) buying from me.
3. Don't even try if the product is not going to be of real benefit to the buyer.

This is how I work too, and how I train employees for sales. And it pays, because people buy from you over and over again once they see how you work. No need to churn through the population and end up with alienated former prospects. No need to struggle trying to sell something of no value to them.
 
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Guest-5ty5s4

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There are definitely scammers out there. There are people who will lie to you to make a buck. The answer is... don't do that. You can make big, big money by doing real things and providing real value.
It might be harder in the short term, but let me tell you... it lasts longer, and you won't end up like Enron, Madoff, or Belfort (though Belfort seems to be doing fine now).

Also, there are a lot of gray areas, like with MLM and motivational speakers. Some of those things truly help people, but some don't. I see where you're coming from. There's a whole lot of business out there though that is not only valuable, but necessary for people to live.
Think about agribusiness, utilities, construction, grocery stores, anything considered "essential." Heck, selling leads to businesses should qualify perfectly; they need the income from the leads you're sending!

You can also picture Maslow's Hierarchy of needs (is it pyramid of needs)?

The most obvious value is generated at the bottom of the pyramid. It's morally unambiguous - you organize the production of food, or distribution of food, people pay you for it, and now they aren't starving. Seems pretty dang fair to me!

The higher you go in the pyramid it gets more complicated. Life coaches, counselors, motivational speakers, even things like art and music can be really subjective and individual. But in many cases, can be very valuable.

If you really aren't comfortable selling to someone's highest aspirations or needs, stick to a simpler part of the supply chain, or a need lower in the pyramid. Those usually make more money anyway (more needs to be filled).

I'm not sure if that made sense, so take it with a grain of salt.
 

RayAndré

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So if you give away product at cost, or discount without reason, and make no money, it's just as despicable as defrauding someone or intimidating them out of money. Let's be clear: allowing yourself to be ruined due to a weak will (and further, falsely justifying it as morality), is depravity.
Ooo...this.

The higher you go in the pyramid it gets more complicated. Life coaches, counselors, motivational speakers, even things like art and music can be really subjective and individual. But in many cases, can be very valuable.
ooo, very interesting perspective! I think I prefer the higher-up-the-pyramid niches. And yea, with this perspective, it makes sense that its inherently more ambiguous...whiiich I think I'm ok with.
Thanks for that :thumbsup:
 
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Andy Black

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Imo, our job as a business owner is simple: Add value. Get paid.

We need to get paid or we go out of business.

If we’re out of business then we do the world / our market a disservice.
 

RayAndré

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A book that I recommend reading: Thou Shall Prosper: Ten Commandments for Making Money by Daniel Lapin
Just started reading this...SO GOOD. I wish I read this ages ago.
Thanks for the rec :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 

Ocean Man

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Fer Vera

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I think you are seeing the glass half empty, of course making a tesla car leaves waste, but you do not see all the waste that is generated during the entire life of the car from its manufacture to its disuse, at some point the benefit of using such a car overcomes its early ecological deficiencies,
what about the entrepreneur that never succeed? But what about those who succeed, who will probably change the world for the better, I have seen some business here in the third world that have made the lives of its inhabitants a little less miserable (I say this because I come from one of those countries), what I try to say that everything has its good and bad side, as long as the good exceeds the bad we are on the right track, nothing in this world is perfect
 

RayAndré

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Yes I was seeing the glass half empty.
I think its my upbringing that has engrained in me a negative view of business and making money. Its the "I'm taking money from people" mentality. No bueno.
No doubt there are business out there that do good for just about everyone involved.

I'm working on it.
The book is helping.
I've also had two friends talk to me about potentially partnering with me on the products I'm building (almost like an affiliate deal), and that helps, too. Knowing that there are other people that want to work with me make the overall process of it much more interesting and engaging than going at it alone.
This way, I'm not just adding benefit to random strangers (my customers), but also someone who is close to me, and their community. Win win.

And what I'm finding, is at the end of the day, community is what matters most.
 

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