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HOT TOPIC GET TO COLLEGE! (Because I failed at business.)

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Mike Partee

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@Fantasticlife here's a question for you.

Do you want to be RIGHT, or do you want to be RICH?

Your arguing doesn't change the fact that people succeed without a degree.

Your arguing doesn't change the fact that people fail WITH one.

Your arguing does NOTHING to change or improve YOUR situation,
other than waste YOUR time and everyone who's responded to your argument...

And it's very clear that you're not open to being convinced.

Welcome to the forum.
Quality first post :clap::
 

ZF Lee

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I'm not saying stats are wrong, what I'm pointing out is that they don't reveal much about causality nor do they talk about all relevant factors.

Like yeah, grads earn more - but why? Is it because they are grads or because they work harder than people who decide to chill rather than going to college? Are they more motivated? More connected to people etc. etc.

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I've gotten more practical tips by chilling with folks from uni and networking.

I just wait for them to drink and eat until their mood improves, and the good stuff comes.

Find time to both study and chill. Both are needed ideally. Work harder at whatever you are weak, and wherever you see that a great breakthrough is upcoming. For me, I am putting more time into meetups, as I am weak in that area. Now I am pretty comfortable walking into a room of strangers and getting to know key folks.

Keyword being IN AGGREGATE.

Those stats never account for the extremes of the model:
1: College Dropouts who become successful, and
2: College Graduates who stay broke.

A better sample to evaluate would be the education levels of entrepreneurs:

.

Ah, ceteris paribus- all else equal. Judge the samples who have been equalised by the status of entrepreneurship. That way, you won't be forcing a monkey, fish and rhino to test their skills in climbing a tree.

Very important for any statistics theory to have ceteris paribus.

Don't your two posts contradict each other?

Someone who is lazy, unambitious, and constantly blaming others for their condition will NEVER become successful regardless of their formal education.

A college degree isn't a ticket to making more money. You have to use it, and thousands of new grads are flooding the market every year.
I think it's a good thing for us.

That makes the great workers and innovators easier to spot from the masses.

Fastlane-focused proposals will work even better.

If there was one thing I got from the book Can't Hurt Me (upcoming book to be discussed), it was that it will be easier to win because most folks will be soft.

I can verify the latter myself. I screwed up in science subjects in my Australian Matriculation exams, only to score an 88 ATAR. Turns out the Aussies were leaving behind the STEM subjects in masses, so naturally, the benchmarks dropped.

There are always lots of ways to stand out even in university though. Just need to choose your activities, clubs and programmes carefully.

I subscribe to my student council's email, and there are LOADS of competitions by corporations, ranging from investing to finance simulations to hackathons every month. Even if you don't want to get hired to be a corporate drone, there are channels for networking and making friends with students who are more disciplined enough to put in time towards the competitions.
 

MJ DeMarco

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I have to be realistic. I am not an entrepreneur, and that's OK.

Oh OK, so you're not here to learn anything but here to TROLL us with your worldview.

This is an entrepreneur forum.

So when this thread dies, you'll leave because you're not here to learn, and you're not here for any particular self-growth or for any contributing factor.

You think you're here to enlighten us.

Sorry, but that's not why I built this place.

College grads earn more on average than people without a degree.

Bahahahah, who told you that? The Federal Reserve? The College Board?

How about "Milk, it does a body good." You believe that too?

How about the CNN report that Trump is an evil orange man hell-bent on world-destruction? Believe that?

Even better, how about the study that SUGAR is good for you? You know, the one conducted and released by the Sugar Refiner trade group?

The "college grad earns more" studies are all flawed studies because it is statistically impossible to isolate book smart youths and keep them away from college and funnel them into other pursuits.

Garbage in, Garbage out, complete with an army of drones ready and willing to regurgitate the nonsense.

Additionally, there is systemic discrimination that keeps non-degreed individuals out of jobs/ventures that sanctimoniously have a degree as a requirement.

These factors make it virtually impossible to determine if "college" is actually the definitive factor for success. There's too many precursors and procursors.

Your reasoning is equivalent to saying, "Studies show that if you're 7 feet tall, your chances of getting a basketball scholarship improve by 64%."

Well yea, duh.

No show me a huge study with thousands of well-adjusted, book-smart students admitted to Harvard and then suddenly, purposely KEPT AWAY. Then compare them to another group who does actually go -- that's a study I'd like to see. But you'll NEVER see it -- because it might actually prove that college is a six-figure scam.

There are over 50,000+ other discussions on this forum. I hope you enjoy them.

If not, good luck at college and with the pending job search. Like college, entrepreneurship is always an option, and a good one if the job economy fails.
 

Mike Partee

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Oh OK, so you're not here to learn anything but here to TROLL us with your worldview.

This is an entrepreneur forum.

So when this thread dies, you'll leave because you're not here to learn, and you're not here for any particular self-growth or for any contributing factor.

You think you're here to enlighten us.

Sorry, but that's not why I built this place.



Bahahahah, who told you that? The Federal Reserve? The College Board?

How about "Milk, it does a body good." You believe that too?

How about the CNN report that Trump is an evil orange man hell-bent on world-destruction? Believe that?

Even better, how about the study that SUGAR is good for you? You know, the one conducted and released by the Sugar Refiner trade group?

The "college grad earns more" studies are all flawed studies because it is statistically impossible to isolate book smart youths and keep them away from college and funnel them into other pursuits.

Garbage in, Garbage out, complete with an army of drones ready and willing to regurgitate the nonsense.

Additionally, there is systemic discrimination that keeps non-degreed individuals out of jobs/ventures that sanctimoniously have a degree as a requirement.

These factors make it virtually impossible to determine if "college" is actually the definitive factor for success. There's too many precursors and procursors.

Your reasoning is equivalent to saying, "Studies show that if you're 7 feet tall, your chances of getting a basketball scholarship improve by 64%."

Well yea, duh.

No show me a huge study with thousands of well-adjusted, book-smart students admitted to Harvard and then suddenly, purposely KEPT AWAY. Then compare them to another group who does actually go -- that's a study I'd like to see. But you'll NEVER see it -- because it might actually prove that college is a six-figure scam.

There are over 50,000+ other discussions on this forum. I hope you enjoy them.

If not, good luck at college and with the pending job search. Like college, entrepreneurship is always an option, and a good one if the job economy fails.

Hi MJ. I made a new account because you blocked my previous one from commenting. I also like how you edited the original post title. But , it is your forum, so you do as you please.

I didn't make this post to troll.

I made it because there are people on this forum who genuinely believe that entrepreneurship is the only path to wealth.

I made this post just to say that college isn't evil. We are blessed to live in a place where there are many resources to help us succeed. College is one of them.

If one doesn't need college to succeed, then go for it! I'm just saying that college is another path.

Mj, there are many people on your forum who think that the only way to make a lot of money is to start a business. It's not true. There are other ways to get rich.

If one only wants to retire by their mid 30's with a few million, there are ways to do that without starting a business. Im not saying that starting a business is wrong, Im just saying that its risky to rely on it initially for your financial well-being.

Besides, you don't have to be an entrepreneur or go to college. You can do both, and have the good job and degree to fall back on if it doesnt work out.

I made this post because I CARE. I was very ignorant. I naively thought that business was my only option, and it isn't.

Also, you are absolutely right. There is a systemic discrimination against people without degrees. Which is why it can make sense to have one.

MJ your book has a lot of good info, but I disagree with your viewpoint of college.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MXF_yLYa8j8


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KMLe3eJgbGs


This will be my last thread on the fastlane forum. Wishing you all the best in your future!
 

MJ DeMarco

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I've allowed your post via your second account.

I was very ignorant. I naively thought that business was my only option, and it isn't.

Exactly, YOU DID THAT. Not me.

NEVER ONCE did I ever say in either of my books, "Skip college"
NEVER ONCE did I ever say in either of my books, "You can't get rich going to college"
NEVER ONCE did I ever say in either of my books, "College is an utter waste."
NEVER ONCE did I ever say in either of my books, "College is worthless"

There's are all ASSUMPTIONS you drew simply because I'm critical of the College Industrial-Debt-and-Slave Complex.

You're a victim of your own thoughts, erroneous conclusions drawn from things I never said.

Additionally, you assume that everyone else on this forum has drawn the same conclusion as you with respect to college/business. They haven't.

MJ your book has a lot of good info, but I disagree with your viewpoint of college.

Actually we agree on more than you think.

This will be my last thread on the fastlane forum.

Of course it is.

You were here out of genuine caring. You were here warn us poor lost souls that $120,000 for a gender studies degree might actually have better probabilities to create wealth than a value-adding business. (See I can use strawman arguments too!)

Goodbye and good luck.
 

SteveO

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You completely missed the point of the second part of his response...



What @emphasize.v1 is saying is that YES,
College Graduates are more likely to succeed than Non-Graduates in Aggregate.

Keyword being IN AGGREGATE.

Those stats never account for the extremes of the model:
1: College Dropouts who become successful, and
2: College Graduates who stay broke.

A better sample to evaluate would be the education levels of entrepreneurs:

View attachment 22951

...and no wonder. The cognitive inclinations of a typical entrepreneur that help him succeed in commerce (High in Openness, Low in Conscientiousness -- Generally very high creativity) is in direct opposition and in some cases detrimental to what is required for academic success...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGax4DsAadk


So is it any surprise that the possibility of an intelligent, self driven person attending college would say "Buck the rules!" and thrive on their own? Something to chew on.
Hey... I fit into the 5 percent that did not complete high school. The person that showed me the way to quitting my job only finished 8th grade. :)

Personally, I want people to go to college and find a decent job. Make more money and buy shit from me...
 

Raoul Duke

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Sounds like a great plan.

UzkdjWI.jpg
 

Mike Partee

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ChrisV

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You aren't understanding. There are clear biases with these stats.

The people who are trying to succeed in life are more likely to go further in their education than others since that's what everyone says leads to success. People who don't care about success won't go farther in school.

Also when you graduate with a degree and 6 figures of debt, you work harder at making more money.

Also when you go deep into schooling you are typically going for a specific job that requires that degree, like pharmacist, lawyer, or CPA . The people without the degree can't get those jobs even if they have all of the knowledge.

Also a lot of people in well paying jobs get incentives by their company to go back to school and get better degrees.

Some get direct pay increases instantly when they get a a better degree, think public school teachers.

There's probably more biases that I can't even think of. While those stats are true, they don't paint the whole picture.

If you only saw this graph below, you would think only morons get Bachelor's Degrees.

11292012_studentloan.jpg
I’m a Statistician and one of my businesses is a business analytics company. I definitely understand. I already touched on the causality issue in another post.

The question is: Does going to a good college make you successful, or does being successful (in your teen years) make you more likely to get into a top college. This has actually been well studied and the data is actually pretty clear. The answer is the latter; being successful makes you go to a top college. In other words the reason that Harvard grads are so successful is only because Harvard knows how to pick kids who are likely to be successes, not because the quality of the education is so great. I’ve taken some of Harvard’s Data Science classes (and others) and they honestly sucked. I got way better results with classes website run by this russian dude on Udemy and indian dudes that run an analytics site (not kidding.) Their neuroscience classes were embarrassing. Some of their classes were good, but my experience with them has been meh. Anyway, the entire value of an Ivy League education is how selective they are. One Data Science analysis that comes to mind was from Everybody Lies: Big Data, New Data, and What the Internet Can Tell Us About Who We Really Are where they took kids who went to Harvard vs kids who were accepted and never went (for whatever reason.) Maybe they decided to go to a cheaper school, maybe they wanted to be by a significant other. But the data showed no difference between those who went and those who were accepted. You can also run tests when there’s a sharp cutoff. Stuyvesent High School (the top High School in the US) has a test whee if you pass you get in, if you fail you’re out. So what do you do? If the cutoff is at 700 points you compare the lies of those who scored 699 with those who scored 700. Since there’s no reason to believe the 700ers are much smarter than the 699ers, it’s a good way of comparing people of about equal skill... those who went and those who didn’t. The difference in life success? Nil. Same thing.

Even more, all the studies on this seem to suggest that you can either send a kid off to Harvard or plop him in a library for 4 years and the results will be almost exactly the same. I mean this has been well-researched and the data on this is very clear.

GET TO COLLEGE! (Because I failed at business) - Post 745339


It’s a complex issue, but what you said is partly right. People who go to college just have more driven personalities. But the causality also runs in the other direction. College helps people build skills that are more marketable (try being an economist without training.) So the causality runs in several directions, and it’s not clear if that same person learned from books rather than going to college if their life outcome would be much different. The available evidence seems to suggest ’no.'
 

lewj24

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I’m a Statistician and one of my businesses is a business analytics company. I definitely understand. I already touched on the causality issue in another post.

Okay Mr. Statistician. You never talked about the biases I pointed out. Please explain why those biases don't matter in your statistical analysis.

(try being an economist without training.)

I've personally learned more about economics on my own than in my college courses. They didn't even tell me there were different schools of economic thought, you would think that would be the first day.

You can train yourself in anything. Ever heard of someone teaching themselves how to code, play guitar, or read? Same deal. Did a college course teach Elon Musk how to build a rocket?

You do realize that most of college is just textbooks right? You can learn every subject by literally buying the college textbooks and reading them on your own. You know, those same textbooks the colleges force you to buy on your own after you pay tuition. And instead of buying the 13th edition for $479.99 you can get the 9th edition for $30 and it has almost all the same info in it.
 

ManlyMansNegator

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I've gotten more practical tips by chilling with folks from uni and networking.

I just wait for them to drink and eat until their mood improves, and the good stuff comes.

Find time to both study and chill. Both are needed ideally. Work harder at whatever you are weak, and wherever you see that a great breakthrough is upcoming. For me, I am putting more time into meetups, as I am weak in that area. Now I am pretty comfortable walking into a room of strangers and getting to know key folks.



Ah, ceteris paribus- all else equal. Judge the samples who have been equalised by the status of entrepreneurship. That way, you won't be forcing a monkey, fish and rhino to test their skills in climbing a tree.

Very important for any statistics theory to have ceteris paribus.


I think it's a good thing for us.

That makes the great workers and innovators easier to spot from the masses.

Fastlane-focused proposals will work even better.

If there was one thing I got from the book Can't Hurt Me (upcoming book to be discussed), it was that it will be easier to win because most folks will be soft.

I can verify the latter myself. I screwed up in science subjects in my Australian Matriculation exams, only to score an 88 ATAR. Turns out the Aussies were leaving behind the STEM subjects in masses, so naturally, the benchmarks dropped.

There are always lots of ways to stand out even in university though. Just need to choose your activities, clubs and programmes carefully.

I subscribe to my student council's email, and there are LOADS of competitions by corporations, ranging from investing to finance simulations to hackathons every month. Even if you don't want to get hired to be a corporate drone, there are channels for networking and making friends with students who are more disciplined enough to put in time towards the competitions.
88 ATAR implies you are in the top 12% of your nation...
 

ZF Lee

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88 ATAR implies you are in the top 12% of your nation...
Not really nation. It counts for Australian and the folks outside who take the exam.

Australian Matriculation is just the Malaysian/non-Australian equivalent of their Year 12. So, the scoring based on ranking goes across all regions under the exam board, be it WACE, SACE or VCE. The boards aren't exactly different from each other in terms of content, but for exam format, yes. My exam board was WACE (West Australian)

An ATAR score in layman's terms means:
'Speaking in rough terms the number scored by an individual is the percentage of students they 'beat' on the higher school certificate.'

What is an ATAR? A Simple Explanation for Parents, Students and Teachers | Tutoring for Excellence

The ATAR scores would also determine which course you could go to for university. So you had to check all the university pre-requisites. For exampe, Engineering might need an 88-ish ATAR, plus selection of Chemistry and Physics. For Business, it was an 80-85, with a pre-requisite in Maths Applications/Methods. Different unis would have different acceptance ATAR rates, obviously.

I've been on the Australian forums before, and needlessly to say, everyone bitched about shit like 'my school is graded on the lower tier' or 'shall I go do an alternative pathway like TAFE ( sounds something like a GED, in pre-uni terms)'. I just didn't like the mindset that you have a Plan B or C. I subscribe to the notion that if you hit as high a result using your Plan A as much as possible, you won't need a Plan B most of the time, i.e. the 10X rule.
 

ManlyMansNegator

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Not really nation. It counts for Australian and the folks outside who take the exam.

Australian Matriculation is just the Malaysian/non-Australian equivalent of their Year 12. So, the scoring based on ranking goes across all regions under the exam board, be it WACE, SACE or VCE. The boards aren't exactly different from each other in terms of content, but for exam format, yes. My exam board was WACE (West Australian)

An ATAR score in layman's terms means:
'Speaking in rough terms the number scored by an individual is the percentage of students they 'beat' on the higher school certificate.'

What is an ATAR? A Simple Explanation for Parents, Students and Teachers | Tutoring for Excellence

The ATAR scores would also determine which course you could go to for university. So you had to check all the university pre-requisites. For exampe, Engineering might need an 88-ish ATAR, plus selection of Chemistry and Physics. For Business, it was an 80-85, with a pre-requisite in Maths Applications/Methods. Different unis would have different acceptance ATAR rates, obviously.

I've been on the Australian forums before, and needlessly to say, everyone bitched about sh*t like 'my school is graded on the lower tier' or 'shall I go do an alternative pathway like TAFE ( sounds something like a GED, in pre-uni terms)'. I just didn't like the mindset that you have a Plan B or C. I subscribe to the notion that if you hit as high a result using your Plan A as much as possible, you won't need a Plan B most of the time, i.e. the 10X rule.
Yea i sat wace 2 years back and got a 91.I thought it was percentage based lol. I am assuming you are also from perth?
 

ZF Lee

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Yea i sat wace 2 years back and got a 91.I thought it was percentage based lol. I am assuming you are also from perth?
No, no. I was still in Malaysia when sitting for the entire course.

Apparently your exam boards allow foreign students to STUDY and SEAT for the exams in private pre-university colleges. The papers will be sent back to Australia for grading and moderating.

I come from a unique (strange?) place where there's not only the local entrance exams like STPM and Form 6 (Sixth Form for you English folks), but also A-Levels, Foundation, ADTP and of course, AUSMAT and SACE (South Australian)

One could say that its a bloody shame that education has turned into a full-blown money machine, but to take the POV of market demand, everyone should have choices of education. Not everyone is cut out for A-levels or Form 6 or whatever.
 

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I remember Mark Cuban once saying something along the lines of "I'd much rather make 40k a year working 80 hours a week working for myself than make 250k working for someone else." Being honest with myself, I would take the 250K job. So I don't have that mindset.
Mark Cuban is a Billionaire, with a B, he's not representative or somebody you should compare yourself to at all..

On your other points, dude there's plenty of money to be made in small businesses, but you seem to only be interested or looking at the outliers. That's a bad idea, most businesses don't start with lot's of funding or anything..

Look at what you are arguing here, it's easier to be average from college than to be in the top 0,5% of businesses. No shit.. Point is if you are average or above average in business you'll make more money than most doctors and lawyers or whatever other example you want to make. Specially if you consider taxes.

Point is there's plenty of opportunity out there for medium and small businesses. Try connecting more with the real world and understanding it, rather than only looking at the outliers you hear about on the internet.

Yeah winning the lottery is unlikely, that's common sense, there are less billionaires alive than there are lottery winners though, have some perspective.

You want to talk about statistics and averages but you can't apply them to yourself properly, come on. Do you know what statisticians do to outliers like Mark Cuban or whatever ? They are ignored, they have formulas to remove them from their data because they mess all of it up, their graphs become gibberish and useless if they keep them in..

If you want safety and comfort business is not for you, you should have known that before even trying. Making payroll is a thing, dealing with annoying clients or suppliers is a thing, putting out fires and emergencies is a thing.

What did you think this was ? Sit on a beach with a notebook? That's naive, and for a guy with any statistical knowledge you should have known that's a tiny percentage of businesses, and an even smaller fraction of them are fastlane..
 

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Sorry MJ, but I distinctly remember your book shaping my young impressionable mind that job = bad, college = bad. To be fair that’s what I had already thought from other books in the genre, and yours was just another affirmation.

At the end of the day, being an author *is* about controlling the thoughts people take away from your writing. So it’s not correct to try to weasel out by saying people misunderstood... if enough people don’t get it, then the words weren’t put together correctly.

You addressed the faults fastlane had in unscripted , especially with people willing to work a job. So I don’t see why you feel the need to antagonize the OP. Just say yeah, it could have been better explained and move on.
 

The Abundant Man

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At the end of the day, being an author *is* about influencing the thoughts people take away from your writing.
Fixed for you. It's up to the audience to be influenced by the book. MJ doesn't control other people's thoughts.
 

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