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HOT TOPIC GET TO COLLEGE! (Because I failed at business.)

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ZF Lee

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One doesn’t simply enroll in university and get free stuff....

Unless your university is free.

If it isn’t, then you’re paying for all of that. Lol
Well, it's free in the sense that I didn't need to pay for the stuff on a daily basis. Plus, for what I paid for, benefits definitely outweighs costs in terms of academic and research tools. However, some of the stuff like meetups wasn't strictly listed under tuition fees, but clubs. Depending on the talk though, if it required some materials, such as a photography class for ecommerce, they'd want you to pay a fee.
 

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Royce2

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Well, it's free in the sense that I didn't need to pay for the stuff on a daily basis. Plus, for what I paid for, benefits definitely outweighs costs in terms of academic and research tools. However, some of the stuff like meetups wasn't strictly listed under tuition fees, but clubs. Depending on the talk though, if it required some materials, such as a photography class for ecommerce, they'd want you to pay a fee.
I am in my 4 year computer science program absolutely free. Financial Aid covered it all.
 

LiveEntrepreneur

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This is of th stupidest things that I've heard and it pisses me off just reading it. so put yourself in massive debt only to find out later its not what you wanted. And end up with a job you hate. I did this i went to uni without a clear goal and it was a complete waste of f*cking time. Had nothing to do with my goals and i just listened to others and what a mistake that was. Only go to university if you know exactly what you want to do and if/or your goals require it.
 

ZF Lee

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And end up with a job you hate. I did this i went to uni without a clear goal and it was a complete waste of f*cking time.
You know you might end up doing a business that sells products you don't exactly love, right? :p

Nothing wrong about that though, as long there's demand.
 

socaldude

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I don't like polarizing decisions as everyone's situation is different.

But college is one of those things where it almost makes zero economic sense to go.

What worries me about the bubble is that it mixes an asset with powerful psycho-social conditioning.

In other words ever since you are in first grade we are brain washed to value good grades and college all without any analysis to it's cost($100k!) and application(I got a 10th century poetry degree!). Nope, just get one and you will be all set!

The tricky thing about this asset is that there is no value or price like a stock market index.

Nope, if there was there would be massive sell-off of college degrees. So people are pretty much clueless as to it's value until they get one.

I mean, I would sell my college degree in heart beat if someone would pay me for it.
 
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The Abundant Man

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My main problem with this is why spend 40k/year trying to figure out what to do with your life?

If college is a part of the plan to get to where you want then by all means go ahead but I think there are far cheaper alternatives to "figuring your life out".

There are tons of people going to college in their first year undecided. It's fine to switch majors if you find out that the major was not what you were expecting.

If I was a parent. I'd rather have my child take a gap year than for me to be paying thousands of dollars right off the bat. He can shadow and interview people in many fields/professions if he's completely undecided on what he wants to do.

To be honest, I was completely undecided right out of High School. I was a failure and a major disappointment.

When my dad retired from the Army after 33 years, he kept telling everyone "Now I have to figure out what I want to do with my life". He got an online environmental degree for career advancement but he has not done anything with it.

College isn't right for everybody and neither is Entrepreneurship.

I think to tell people to figure stuff out in college is not the right method in my opinion.

I get it. The kidulthood stage.

Alexander The Great conquered the known world at the age of 19.
 

LiveEntrepreneur

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You know you might end up doing a business that sells products you don't exactly love, right? :p

Nothing wrong about that though, as long there's demand.
Yes but thats didferent. you have a goal in business, usually thats freedom. But if you are doing something u hate to do a job u hate what is the end result? Doing something u hate for a living also a shit life.

But in business even if u dont like it the end result can justify it.
 

Healthfulness

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I definitely agree with the OP. There are far too many "entrepreuners" who drop out school without having real idea what to do, but only "I don't wan't to be slave, I'll be an entrepreuner". Few months, often even years later they are grinding in some horrible physical labor intensive job and blaming life for being so hard.
Drop out or don't to school if You know what to do and if You can commit to being success. Some people are far to weak, far too lazy and far too dumb to drop out and build a business.
Probably it depends on the study program, but I have no problem studying, working, training daily and spending 4+ hours daily to work on my stuff.
*Note. This is different is USA, You have to pay insane money for school. In Europe it's free so if You're from USA, I would rather move (if possible) to Europe or yeah, just work hard on entrepreuneurinal projects.
 

Fantasticlife

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Okay, I really feel a need to put this college/job vs self-education/entrepreneurship subject to rest.

Okay, In psychology there’s a personality scale called the Big 5. Two of those metrics are Conscientiousness and Openness to Experience. Conscientiousness people are orderly, enjoy structure and like social hierarchies. For those types of people, college and a formal job is where it’s at! It’s perfect for them. They crave that type of daily structure. They like being to work at 8:50 (10 minutes early) and leaving at 5:01. Why? Because their personalities just need structure. College and a job is part of the structure.

Now people who are lower on conscientiousness? They hate rules. They think that rules inhibit them. These people are much more likely to be libertarians, another group that dislikes rules. They’re also more likely to be entrepreneurs because the ‘structure’ of a 9-5 drives them nuts. They want to do things on their terms and innovate.

The second personality trait that determines if you’ll choose the career or entrepreneurship path is Openness to Experience. These people like doing new things. They’re creative and they like novelty.

Not everyone dislikes the whole 9-5 thing. Some people need it. They like to follow rules. The other type of person can’t stand the 9-5 thing. They like to break little rules and social norms in the search for innovation.

What you prefer is really a matter of your temperament.

So it’s really a matter of ‘different strokes for different folks.'
Yeah. If you don't know what to do, there's nothing wrong with a scripted career path . You can quit anytime and take the plunge if you want.

I have to be realistic. I am not an entrepreneur, and that's OK. I remember Mark Cuban once saying something along the lines of "I'd much rather make 40k a year working 80 hours a week working for myself than make 250k working for someone else." Being honest with myself, I would take the 250K job. So I don't have that mindset.

Get rich quick definitely exists, but it's rare, and the chances are low. Usually wealth is built over time. Whatever path to wealth you take it usually takes at least 10 years.

It's OK to be a doctor or lawyer if you cant figure it out. Much better to have a 100k a year job to fall back on than nothing
I don't like polarizing decisions as everyone's situation is different.

But college is one of those things where it almost makes zero economic sense to go.

What worries me about the bubble is that it mixes an asset with powerful psycho-social conditioning.

In other words ever since you are in first grade we are brain washed to value good grades and college all without any analysis to it's cost($100k!) and application(I got a 10th century poetry degree!). Nope, just get one and you will be all set!

The tricky thing about this asset is that there is no value or price like a stock market index.

Nope, if there was there would be massive sell-off of college degrees. So people are pretty much clueless as to it's value until they get one.

I mean, I would sell my college degree in heart beat if someone would pay me for it.

Zero economic sense? That's absurd!

Think about the long term! College grads earn more on average than people without a degree.
In case if the business doesn't work out, one always has the degree to fall back on.
The chances of becoming a successful entrepreneur are LOW. Is it possible, absolutely. But it takes a lot of hard work, sacrifice, and luck as well.

Going to college will open doors for you. I've never heard a successful lawyer, doctor I banker or trader tell me to not go to school.
Also, a large part of success isn't what you know, but who you know.
I met someone who ran a company which raised $1 billion in funding. The company brought renewable energy to countries in Latin America. He worked hard in his industry for about 20 years to get there. Do you think he wouldve had that opportunity if he didnt even have a college degree?

Ive been attending school, and I met someone who started a startup accelerator which has had several companies which raised 10 digits in funding.

College gives you access to SO much opportunity. It is not to be underestimated.

By not having a degree, you are depriving yourself of working in MANY different industries.

Is it possible to be successful without college? Yes. But the chances are lower.
I don't like polarizing decisions as everyone's situation is different.

But college is one of those things where it almost makes zero economic sense to go.

What worries me about the bubble is that it mixes an asset with powerful psycho-social conditioning.

In other words ever since you are in first grade we are brain washed to value good grades and college all without any analysis to it's cost($100k!) and application(I got a 10th century poetry degree!). Nope, just get one and you will be all set!

The tricky thing about this asset is that there is no value or price like a stock market index.

Nope, if there was there would be massive sell-off of college degrees. So people are pretty much clueless as to it's value until they get one.

I mean, I would sell my college degree in heart beat if someone would pay me for it.

Zero economic sense? That's absurd!

Think about the long term! College grads earn more on average than people without a degree.
In case if the business doesn't work out, one always has the degree to fall back on.
The chances of becoming a successful entrepreneur are LOW. Is it possible, absolutely. But it takes a lot of hard work, sacrifice, and luck as well.

Going to college will open doors for you. I've never heard a successful lawyer, doctor, I banker or trader tell me to not go to school.
Also, a large part of success isn't what you know, but who you know.
I met someone who ran a company which raised $1 billion in funding. The company brought renewable energy to countries in Latin America. He worked hard in his industry for about 20 years to get there. Do you think he wouldve had that opportunity if he didnt even have a college degree?

Ive been attending school, and I met someone who started a startup accelerator which has had several companies which raised 10 digits in funding.

College gives you access to SO much opportunity. It is not to be underestimated.

By not having a degree, you are depriving yourself of working in MANY different industries.

Is it possible to be successful without college? Yes. But the chances are much lower.
 

Primeperiwinkle

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Colleges do not ensure education. They sell a script. Most people benefit at least a little bit from college. Some ppl benefit a lot.

If you have access to this post you have access to a lifetime of free learning, a free education. The problem is that most people don’t know how to design their own curriculum or they utterly lack the discipline it takes to commit to it. Most people are so stuck in a script they don’t know they’re even stuck. Where did you get your definition of education from?!? Why are you pursuing it?

What is education? Why do you get an education? Hint: Utilitarians say it’s just to get a job. They’re wrong.

A Real Education is a part of YOUR LIFE.
A Real Education is the science of relations: vibrant connections bring us happiness.
A Real Education gives you a deep and abiding LOVE for learning.
Self-Education is the only Real Education because you don’t learn shit if you don’t WANT TO LEARN.

A complete Real Education involves living books written by people who lived in the times you’re studying not regurgitated textbooks written by a board of white pencil pushers w/ no concept of war, death, or disease ; it includes fiction and non-fiction; it has a large scope of history, literature, foreign language, math, science, geography, poetry, music, art, and the ability to make things that are useful. It doesn’t exclude knowledge of what it means to be human just because learning those things might not get you a job.

A Real Education gives you a relationship to the beauty, truth, and goodness of the world around you. It gives you confidence in yourself and a genuine desire to make the world a better place, because a Real Education instills virtue, duty, honor, kindness, and compassion.

A Real Education helps you to become a better human being not a better employee or boss or worker or consumer, a BETTER HUMAN BEING.

If you find a college that supports a Real Education and you want to pay for it, then by all means, go right ahead.

Sheesh.
 

JG17

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Without a college degree, you are cutting yourself off from working in a wide variety of industries.

Even if you're just trying to make a living off of salary, college grads make more than non-college grads.
A 22 year old software engineer with little skill and a CS degree is more likely to be hired than an engineer with no degree and 10 years of experience

Like I said, I can't speak for the US, but in the UK each of your three above blanket statements are completely untrue. Perhaps as a much smaller nation our mantra of 'go to university or you're worthless' isn't quite as developed. It was really on its way in the 2000s where it became the norm that everyone just goes without question, but the huge increase in fees in recent years has resulted in people seeking other options and employers changing their stance.
 

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JG17

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*Note. This is different is USA, You have to pay insane money for school. In Europe it's free so if You're from USA, I would rather move (if possible) to Europe or yeah, just work hard on entrepreuneurinal projects.

This really isn't true mate. There are a lot of European countries where it is free or close to free, there are also a lot of European countries where it is very expensive, none more so than the UK. Still cheaper than the USA, but please don't put out blanket statements like that if you don't know the facts.
 

Fantasticlife

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Colleges do not ensure education. They sell a script. Most people benefit at least a little bit from college. Some ppl benefit a lot.

If you have access to this post you have access to a lifetime of free learning, a free education. The problem is that most people don’t know how to design their own curriculum or they utterly lack the discipline it takes to commit to it. Most people are so stuck in a script they don’t know they’re even stuck. Where did you get your definition of education from?!? Why are you pursuing it?

What is education? Why do you get an education? Hint: Utilitarians say it’s just to get a job. They’re wrong.

A Real Education is a part of YOUR LIFE.
A Real Education is the science of relations: vibrant connections bring us happiness.
A Real Education gives you a deep and abiding LOVE for learning.
Self-Education is the only Real Education because you don’t learn sh*t if you don’t WANT TO LEARN.

A complete Real Education involves living books written by people who lived in the times you’re studying not regurgitated textbooks written by a board of white pencil pushers w/ no concept of war, death, or disease ; it includes fiction and non-fiction; it has a large scope of history, literature, foreign language, math, science, geography, poetry, music, art, and the ability to make things that are useful. It doesn’t exclude knowledge of what it means to be human just because learning those things might not get you a job.

A Real Education gives you a relationship to the beauty, truth, and goodness of the world around you. It gives you confidence in yourself and a genuine desire to make the world a better place, because a Real Education instills virtue, duty, honor, kindness, and compassion.

A Real Education helps you to become a better human being not a better employee or boss or worker or consumer, a BETTER HUMAN BEING.

If you find a college that supports a Real Education and you want to pay for it, then by all means, go right ahead.

Sheesh.
What kind of pretentious BS is this?
Like I said, I can't speak for the US, but in the UK each of your three above blanket statements are completely untrue. Perhaps as a much smaller nation our mantra of 'go to university or you're worthless' isn't quite as developed. It was really on its way in the 2000s where it became the norm that everyone just goes without question, but the huge increase in fees in recent years has resulted in people seeking other options and employers changing their stance.
Like I said, I can't speak for the US, but in the UK each of your three above blanket statements are completely untrue. Perhaps as a much smaller nation our mantra of 'go to university or you're worthless' isn't quite as developed. It was really on its way in the 2000s where it became the norm that everyone just goes without question, but the huge increase in fees in recent years has resulted in people seeking other options and employers changing their stance.
Yeah. If you don't know what to do, there's nothing wrong with a scripted career path . You can quit anytime and take the plunge if you want.

I have to be realistic. I am not an entrepreneur, and that's OK. I remember Mark Cuban once saying something along the lines of "I'd much rather make 40k a year working 80 hours a week working for myself than make 250k working for someone else." Being honest with myself, I would take the 250K job. So I don't have that mindset.

Get rich quick definitely exists, but it's rare, and the chances are low. Usually wealth is built over time. Whatever path to wealth you take it usually takes at least 10 years.

It's OK to be a doctor or lawyer if you cant figure it out. Much better to have a 100k a year job to fall back on than nothing


Zero economic sense? That's absurd!

Think about the long term! College grads earn more on average than people without a degree.
In case if the business doesn't work out, one always has the degree to fall back on.
The chances of becoming a successful entrepreneur are LOW. Is it possible, absolutely. But it takes a lot of hard work, sacrifice, and luck as well.

Going to college will open doors for you. I've never heard a successful lawyer, doctor I banker or trader tell me to not go to school.
Also, a large part of success isn't what you know, but who you know.
I met someone who ran a company which raised $1 billion in funding. The company brought renewable energy to countries in Latin America. He worked hard in his industry for about 20 years to get there. Do you think he wouldve had that opportunity if he didnt even have a college degree?

Ive been attending school, and I met someone who started a startup accelerator which has had several companies which raised 10 digits in funding.

College gives you access to SO much opportunity. It is not to be underestimated.

By not having a degree, you are depriving yourself of working in MANY different industries.

Is it possible to be successful without college? Yes. But the chances are lower.


Zero economic sense? That's absurd!

Think about the long term! College grads earn more on average than people without a degree.
In case if the business doesn't work out, one always has the degree to fall back on.
The chances of becoming a successful entrepreneur are LOW. Is it possible, absolutely. But it takes a lot of hard work, sacrifice, and luck as well.

Going to college will open doors for you. I've never heard a successful lawyer, doctor, I banker or trader tell me to not go to school.
Also, a large part of success isn't what you know, but who you know.
I met someone who ran a company which raised $1 billion in funding. The company brought renewable energy to countries in Latin America. He worked hard in his industry for about 20 years to get there. Do you think he wouldve had that opportunity if he didnt even have a college degree?

Ive been attending school, and I met someone who started a startup accelerator which has had several companies which raised 10 digits in funding.

College gives you access to SO much opportunity. It is not to be underestimated.

By not having a degree, you are depriving yourself of working in MANY different industries.

Is it possible to be successful without college? Yes. But the chances are much lower.
8 digits , not 10.
 

Healthfulness

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This really isn't true mate. There are a lot of European countries where it is free or close to free, there are also a lot of European countries where it is very expensive, none more so than the UK. Still cheaper than the USA, but please don't put out blanket statements like that if you don't know the facts.
Sorry. My bad. I'm in Denmark and I get paid to study there.
Shortly, the whole point was that I've seen examples where people quit studies and then end up working shit jobs, because they can't handle the real entrepreuner struggle. After studies, there's atleast safety net, meaning if business doesn't go well, you can get atleast comforable job, not grind in McDonalds to survive.
I personally believe I won't need this safety net (as I will succeed), but still feels good to know, that I have guarantee of comfortable slowlane available in case I need it.
 

Longlong

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Yeah. I read Mj's book a few years ago and decide not to go to college, trying to start a few businesses. It didnt work out, and I seriously regret not going. But it's ok. I can still go now.

I have to be realistic. I am not an entrepreneur, and that's OK. I remember Mark Cuban once saying something along the lines of "I'd much rather make 40k a year working 80 hours a week working for myself than make 250k working for someone else." Being honest with myself, I would take the 250K job. So I don't have that mindset.

Think about the long term! College grads earn more on average than people without a degree.
In case if the business doesn't work out, one always has the degree to fall back on.

Is it possible to be successful without college? Yes. But the chances are lower.


Zero economic sense? That's absurd!Think about the long term! College grads earn more on average than people without a degree.

Here is a summary of the OP for those just tuning in. He is in the wrong forum, before you waste your energy typing up a well thought out reply.
 

emphasize.v1

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Grads earn more than non-grads because sidewalkers and lazy people fall into that category.

Here is a quick tip:
If you are presented with statistical data always try to see which variables are included/excluded. People lie with statistics, a lot. Relying on statistics before examining the inputs and Z-factors is not a good way to go.

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The Abundant Man

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Grads earn more than non-grads because sidewalkers and lazy people fall into that category.

Here is a quick tip:
If you are presented with statistical data always try to see which variables are included/excluded. People lie with statistics, a lot. Relying on statistics before examining the inputs and Z-factors is not a good way to go.

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Right. There's always a margin of error when it comes to statistics.

Shouldn't they always put out the percentiles when presenting statistics?
 

Fantasticlife

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Grads earn more than non-grads because sidewalkers and lazy people fall into that category.

Here is a quick tip:
If you are presented with statistical data always try to see which variables are included/excluded. People lie with statistics, a lot. Relying on statistics before examining the inputs and Z-factors is not a good way to go.

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So you agree that college grads are less likely to be lazy sidewalkers ?
 

socaldude

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Is it possible to be successful without college? Yes. But the chances are lower.

Probabilities look different for each person depending on their level of knowledge, experience, motivation etc.

Obviously if someone skips college and stays home all day with mom playing video games then that person has a <1% chance of success.

Some people should go to college and will benefit and become doctors and that's fine but entrepreneurship is for people who don't care nor want that type of path.

Which is more riskier?

1. Waste 4 years and spend $60K to get a commoditized piece of paper?

2. Start a business and start learning?

One has low cost, and almost nothing to lose. The other requires a lot if time and debt to get nothing to show for it. One has almost unlimited earning potential one gets you a $35K/year job.

And I would argue that someone who is self-taught is 10x more likely to be successful than someone who waits to get spoon fed information and taught.

And if college is so great why don't these institutions stand behind their products in the form of refunds? Why do they raise their prices so much?
 
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Mike Partee

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So you agree that college grads are less likely to be lazy sidewalkers ?

You completely missed the point of the second part of his response...

If you are presented with statistical data always try to see which variables are included/excluded. People lie with statistics, a lot. Relying on statistics before examining the inputs and Z-factors is not a good way to go.

What @emphasize.v1 is saying is that YES,
College Graduates are more likely to succeed than Non-Graduates in Aggregate.

Keyword being IN AGGREGATE.

Those stats never account for the extremes of the model:
1: College Dropouts who become successful, and
2: College Graduates who stay broke.

A better sample to evaluate would be the education levels of entrepreneurs:

Screen Shot 2018-12-21 at 11.51.12 AM.png

...and no wonder. The cognitive inclinations of a typical entrepreneur that help him succeed in commerce (High in Openness, Low in Conscientiousness -- Generally very high creativity) is in direct opposition and in some cases detrimental to what is required for academic success...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGax4DsAadk


So is it any surprise that the possibility of an intelligent, self driven person attending college would say "Buck the rules!" and thrive on their own? Something to chew on.
 

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LuckyPup

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Yea okay. The anti-academia rhetoric around here is literally palpable among a decent group of members.

To OP: I don’t think MJ has anything against college.

And you dont necessarily need college to be successful. I work very high up in Academia with Yale Phds and Harvard Grads despite my relative lack of formal education. If you can get the job done, people will want you.

Here’s the issue.... the universities have gone further and further left as times went on. Now it’s just a liberal sh*tshow with a number of useless degrees. Gender Studies. Woman Studies. I mean if you’re going into the STEM fields you’re safe, but the humanities? omfg STAY OUT. I’d say stay OUT of almost ALL liberal arts degrees until this university mess is sorted out. It’s a weird time for the Academies. You can get an English Lit degree without EVER having read Sheakespeare. Why? Post-modern philosophy believes that all art is subjective, so a painting that looks like someone had the hershey squirts with a paint can is just as valuable as a rembrandt, because they believe in some BS equality around art.

But I whole heartedly agree with the original post. If you don’t know what you want, go to a cheap state school. People straw man with “mountains of debt”... I live in NY and going to ANY state school is completely tuition free. Even in other states state school or community college is ultra cheap (1000-2000/semester.) But also, if you’re fortunate enough to get into one of the Ivies like Harvard or Yale GO. If you’re getting accepted into Ivy League or any Top 10 schools(like University of Chicago) you’ve probably got “success” written all over your future anyway. Those schools are amazing at picking out people who will be successful, and the irony is they pick people who would have been successful with or without college (that’s statistically proven.)

My suggestion? Either go for the Gold (Top 10 school) or go the bronze (State school/community college) Why? The middle tier schools basically cost just as much as the Ivies! So if you’re gonna rack up that debt, eff it... go to Stanford. Don’t rack up a bunch of debt going to a mediocre school.

But college is a great place to find yourself. It’s a great place to challenge your preconceived notions. As long as it’s not some liberal sh*tshow like East and West Coast universities. I recommend looking into Heterodox Academy, who rates political biases of universities (which is a MAJOR ISSUE THESE DAYS)


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Bravo! I agree with nearly all your points, aside from the Gold/Bronze dichotomy and cost remark. My daughter is college-bound and I've also been painfully aware of how far left most colleges and universities have become, and what an arms race the entire education industry has created. It's been ripe for disruption for decades.
 

emphasize.v1

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Right. There's always a margin of error when it comes to statistics.

Shouldn't they always put out the percentiles when presenting statistics?
I'm not saying stats are wrong, what I'm pointing out is that they don't reveal much about causality nor do they talk about all relevant factors.

Like yeah, grads earn more - but why? Is it because they are grads or because they work harder than people who decide to chill rather than going to college? Are they more motivated? More connected to people etc. etc.

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ChrisV

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Like yeah, grads earn more - but why? Is it because they are grads or because they work harder than people who decide to chill rather than going to college? Are they more motivated? More connected to people etc. etc.

The question is: Does going to a good college make you successful, or does being successful (in your teen years) make you more likely to get into a top college. This has actually been well studied and the data is actually pretty clear. The answer is the latter; being successful makes you go to a top college. In other words the reason that Harvard grads are so successful is only because Harvard knows how to pick kids who are likely to be successes, not because the quality of the education is so great. I’ve taken some of Harvard’s Data Science classes (and others) and they honestly sucked. I got way better results with classes website run by this russian dude on Udemy and indian dudes that run an analytics site (not kidding.) Their neuroscience classes were embarrassing. Some of their classes were good, but my experience with them has been meh. Anyway, the entire value of an Ivy League education is how selective they are. One Data Science analysis that comes to mind was from Everybody Lies: Big Data, New Data, and What the Internet Can Tell Us About Who We Really Are where they took kids who went to Harvard vs kids who were accepted and never went (for whatever reason.) Maybe they decided to go to a cheaper school, maybe they wanted to be by a significant other. But the data showed no difference between those who went and those who were accepted. You can also run tests when there’s a sharp cutoff. Stuyvesent High School (the top High School in the US) has a test whee if you pass you get in, if you fail you’re out. So what do you do? If the cutoff is at 700 points you compare the lies of those who scored 699 with those who scored 700. Since there’s no reason to believe the 700ers are much smarter than the 699ers, it’s a good way of comparing people of about equal skill... those who went and those who didn’t. The difference in life success? Nil. Same thing.

Even more, all the studies on this seem to suggest that you can either send a kid off to Harvard or plop him in a library for 4 years and the results will be almost exactly the same. I mean this has been well-researched and the data on this is very clear.
 
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ChrisV

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Grads earn more than non-grads because sidewalkers and lazy people fall into that category.

Here is a quick tip:
If you are presented with statistical data always try to see which variables are included/excluded. People lie with statistics, a lot. Relying on statistics before examining the inputs and Z-factors is not a good way to go.

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Right. There's always a margin of error when it comes to statistics.

Shouldn't they always put out the percentiles when presenting statistics?

It’s more than that. College grads earn more, period. FT_13.09.23_CollegeEducated_1_420px-2.png
dod_educationpays.jpg

GDP_EDUC.jpg

You can question causality, but there’s not a shred of evidence that education doesn’t correlate with income.
 

PizzaOnTheRoof

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It’s more than that. College grads earn more, period. View attachment 22963
View attachment 22964

View attachment 22965

You can question causality, but there’s not a shred of evidence that education doesn’t correlate with income.
all the studies on this seem to suggest that you can either send a kid off to Harvard or plop him in a library for 4 years and the results will be almost exactly the same. I mean this has been well-researched and the data on this is very clear.
Don't your two posts contradict each other?

Someone who is lazy, unambitious, and constantly blaming others for their condition will NEVER become successful regardless of their formal education.

A college degree isn't a ticket to making more money. You have to use it, and thousands of new grads are flooding the market every year.
 

lewj24

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It’s more than that. College grads earn more, period. View attachment 22963
View attachment 22964

View attachment 22965

You can question causality, but there’s not a shred of evidence that education doesn’t correlate with income.

You aren't understanding. There are clear biases with these stats.

The people who are trying to succeed in life are more likely to go further in their education than others since that's what everyone says leads to success. People who don't care about success won't go farther in school.

Also when you graduate with a degree and 6 figures of debt, you work harder at making more money.

Also when you go deep into schooling you are typically going for a specific job that requires that degree, like pharmacist, lawyer, or CPA . The people without the degree can't get those jobs even if they have all of the knowledge.

Also a lot of people in well paying jobs get incentives by their company to go back to school and get better degrees.

Some get direct pay increases instantly when they get a a better degree, think public school teachers.

There's probably more biases that I can't even think of. While those stats are true, they don't paint the whole picture.

If you only saw this graph below, you would think only morons get Bachelor's Degrees.

 

Saavik

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Here is my perspective.
I think that if you're unsure of what you want to to do with your life, you should go to college until you figure it out.
In this particular regard, I think, the UNSCRIPTED books were written very much from a US perspective. If you can get a college/university education without going into debt, it changes the picture, as it allows you to later enter markets that have high barriers to entry.
 

Fantasticlife

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You aren't understanding. There are clear biases with these stats.

The people who are trying to succeed in life are more likely to go further in their education than others since that's what everyone says leads to success. People who don't care about success won't go farther in school.

Also when you graduate with a degree and 6 figures of debt, you work harder at making more money.

Also when you go deep into schooling you are typically going for a specific job that requires that degree, like pharmacist, lawyer, or CPA . The people without the degree can't get those jobs even if they have all of the knowledge.

Also a lot of people in well paying jobs get incentives by their company to go back to school and get better degrees.

Some get direct pay increases instantly when they get a a better degree, think public school teachers.

There's probably more biases that I can't even think of. While those stats are true, they don't paint the whole picture.

If you only saw this graph below, you would think only morons get Bachelor's Degrees.


It's not that everyone says it's more likely to lead to success. It IS more likely to lead to success.

How many people in the Forbes 400 have college degrees?
Doctorate, Degree or Dropout: How Much Education It Takes To Become A Billionaire

84%.
Almost 1/4th of them graduated from an ivy league.
 

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