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A rant about usual "Sales" Teaching

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Anything related to matters of the mind

Vinz

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Wanted to post this for some time .
I want to rant about the usual "Sales" mindset that nearly all salespeople seem to have.

Reading SPIN selling is one of the best things I'm doing right now. As I'm going for the book, I'm more and more grateful finding out that Sales isn't actually what most people and professionals believe and think.
It looks like everyone sustains that sales is all about Charisma, being SUPER Extroverted, SUPER Aggressive, SUPER Friendly and making everyone your BEST PAL like you're in kindergarten school and you found out the other guy who does the same figures with Play-Doh as you do .
I mean WTF ???

I'm pissed and relieved at the same time.
The first because I've wasted months trying MY BEST at this approach on sales. I mean HARD EFFORT. And ZERO RESULTS. Which is EXTRA FRUSTRATING.
Relieved to find out that this is all bullshit and sales is actually much more about finding problems and shifting your costumer prespective on why your solution fits them. IF IT ACTUALLY DOES.

How can It be that for the majority of the sector you have to be so pushy, aggressive, friendly and NOT yourself ??? In the last job I was told I wasn't aggressive enough. What The Hell, do I have to murder the guy or what ???

My question is where do you think this comes from ?

Maybe if your friends with someone they will be more likely to buy, but that can't be an entire sales' tradition foundations right ?
Did this get some results so everyone went all in ? By reading SPIN selling it seems that every idea about selling is wrong and it needed extensive research to prove otherwise



Sorry if this is all over the place. Mods feel to move section if this isn't right
 
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Eudaimonium

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Individual salesmen / sales managers are incentivized to be overly pushy on customers. A company itself aims for a more balanced approach as it usually does not depend on short-term sales figures, but on long-term customer satisfaction.

If sales are great, but customers then do not return (churning), the company may shut down, but the aggressive salesperson will always find something new to sell.

Sales is by nature: extroverted (you sell to people), aggressive (you have to approach and be on the offense), friendly (you are creating voluntary transactions, win-wins), charismatic (sales as a skill translates into ability to persuade)

So, people like this will always be heavily over-represented in sales. If you want to sell to the salesperson (which is ironic), you have to adapt it to their demographic. Even if their sales method, or by extension personality or sales ethics is WRONG, you tell them they are RIGHT. And then they buy your message.
 

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Vinz

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I cohost a podcast with a career salesman. He would argue that being aggressive and focused on closing isn’t good sales craft.

You can hear us discuss it here:
Yeah I already listened to some podcasts and like it.
My question was more on where does this originate


Individual salesmen / sales managers are incentivized to be overly pushy on customers. A company itself aims for a more balanced approach as it usually does not depend on short-term sales figures, but on long-term customer satisfaction.

If sales are great, but customers then do not return (churning), the company may shut down, but the aggressive salesperson will always find something new to sell.

Sales is by nature: extroverted (you sell to people), aggressive (you have to approach and be on the offense), friendly (you are creating voluntary transactions, win-wins), charismatic (sales as a skill translates into ability to persuade)

So, people like this will always be heavily over-represented in sales. If you want to sell to the salesperson (which is ironic), you have to adapt it to their demographic. Even if their sales method, or by extension personality or sales ethics is WRONG, you tell them they are RIGHT. And then they buy your message.
So It seems that very nature of Sales can mislead a lot of people.
I like your explanation on the various characteristics. It looks like the problems is the over-exaggeration of these ones
 
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I went clothes shopping in a mall a few days ago. Spent 500 bucks but none of it was in a store with aggressive sales people. It was so annoying it was like they were chasing me out the door, forcing me out.

My sales stats are quite a lot better than my current manager when he was on the phones, but he still tries to force me into his ultra aggressive always closing bullshit.

"Make a connection." In the first minute... also known as "start talking about useless shit to try and become friends" lol.

People don't want to be F*cking friends with you, stop trying to F*ck on the first date for Christ's sake. I swapped crap like "what are you up to this weekend!" (you can literally hear people roll their eyes on the other end lol) To things like "let's get this done for you as quick as possible so you can get back to xxx" find their pain points and solutions and if they eventually feel comfy enough to chat, let them go on and on.

I was told I have to "get commitment" as soon as possible. Laaaaame. Scares people away. Tell them there's no commitment and let them drop their guard a bit.

I could keep going on and on about this for ages but what it really is, is that there are just a lot of average, outdated techniques and people trying to climb the corporate ladder by following a crappy script they inherited.

Good - GREAT news for guys like us that going forward only have to compete with a majority of salespeople that absolutely STINK lol.

It's pretty basic stuff so I'm surprised that these techniques are pushed so heavily. It may be because there is such a large volume of sales advisors to manage and a lot of them are too young to be responsible enough to manage leads so aggresive churn and burn is the easiest way for them to manage. Doesn't make sense that they can't leave guys like me well enough alone though. That's weird to me.
 
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Stargazer

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Consumer cancellation rights are a relatively recent thing.

Before that, if your signature was on a contract then that was it. You were legally liable even if you changed your mind 5 minutes later. Tough luck.

Therefore companies hired physically large , extroverted, pushy guys who could talk the hind legs off of a donkey.

As the film industry was just starting up in the same era, by default sales guys were represented like this and it has stuck in peoples minds.

So that is were it came from.

This changed in the latter decades of the 20th Century as cooling off periods were introduced. Why sit and badger people for hours if they could now cancel first thing in the morning? 14 days is common now.

Most industries adapted to 'Dr like consultation sales' rather than 'Ram it down your throat' style sales. Its why women make great sales people.

Does that help answer your question?

Dan
 

Vinz

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Consumer cancellation rights are a relatively recent thing.

Before that, if your signature was on a contract then that was it. You were legally liable even if you changed your mind 5 minutes later. Tough luck.

Therefore companies hired physically large , extroverted, pushy guys who could talk the hind legs off of a donkey.

As the film industry was just starting up in the same era, by default sales guys were represented like this and it has stuck in peoples minds.

So that is were it came from.

This changed in the latter decades of the 20th Century as cooling off periods were introduced. Why sit and badger people for hours if they could now cancel first thing in the morning? 14 days is common now.

Most industries adapted to 'Dr like consultation sales' rather than 'Ram it down your throat' style sales. Its why women make great sales people.

Does that help answer your question?

Dan
For sure it helps.

This is catching up lately but it is still a big trend.

I strongly cringe Everytime I hear that "sell ice to Eskimos" catchphrase. How can it be more stupid than that ?

I was literally told that in a sales conversation you have to be the one who has to talk all of the time . It's just unnatural and unnecessary

I went clothes shopping in a mall a few days ago. Spent 500 bucks but none of it was in a store with aggressive sales people. It was so annoying it was like they were chasing me out the door, forcing me out.

My sales stats are quite a lot better than my current manager when he was on the phones, but he still tries to force me into his ultra aggressive always closing bullshit.

"Make a connection." In the first minute... also known as "start talking about useless shit to try and become friends" lol.

People don't want to be f*cking friends with you, stop trying to f*ck on the first date for Christ's sake. I swapped crap like "what are you up to this weekend!" (you can literally hear people roll their eyes on the other end lol) To things like "let's get this done for you as quick as possible so you can get back to xxx" find their pain points and solutions and if they eventually feel comfy enough to chat, let them go on and on.

I was told I have to "get commitment" as soon as possible. Laaaaame. Scares people away. Tell them there's no commitment and let them drop their guard a bit.

I could keep going on and on about this for ages but what it really is, is that there are just a lot of average, outdated techniques and people trying to climb the corporate ladder by following a crappy script they inherited.

Good - GREAT news for guys like us that going forward only have to compete with a majority of salespeople that absolutely STINK lol.

It's pretty basic stuff so I'm surprised that these techniques are pushed so heavily. It may be because there is such a large volume of sales advisors to manage and a lot of them are too young to be responsible enough to manage leads so aggresive churn and burn is the easiest way for them to manage. Doesn't make sense that they can't leave guys like me well enough alone though. That's weird to me.

Yeah it does mean we have weak competition. But it also mean there are likely a lot of guys like I was who are just frustrated trying their best at what they are told to do and seeing no results.

In one of my past experiences it was ALL about making people your friends.
Just stupid. When I shoot my shot at it it was so out of place everytime lol

And I was constantly told that I was "soft" and "flaccid". Not the best for your self esteem.
 
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WJK

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What you described as sales and selling doesn't work in the long run. The aggressive behavior creates a victim/bully situation where the bully just imposes his will. Then you describe the opposite situation where the salesperson takes the low road setting up another bad outcome. Either way, neither works.
 

Vinz

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What you described as sales and selling doesn't work in the long run. The aggressive behavior creates a victim/bully situation where the bully just imposes his will. Then you describe the opposite situation where the salesperson takes the low road setting up another bad outcome. Either way, neither works.
Could you explain more on the "low road" ? What do you think is a fair in-between ?
I described the method of selling that consists in asking lots of questions, and using the info you get to shift your product's value in the eye of the costumer
 

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As for the origin of this kind of selling method, I believe it stems from selling insurances or in other words stuff no one needs. In this case, you have to be pushy and aggressive and work with all the tactics of influencing people. This is also where the bad reputation of "selling" is coming from. While in reality, "selling" means simply "to convince" someone. And if you have what they want - there is no need for pushy sales tactics.
 
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I like the "no pressure" approach to selling. It has always worked for me. Treat it like you are doing the customer a service - you are explaining things to them to help them make the best decision - you are NOT, ever, tricking them into buying a turd.

And if they decide they aren't interested, offer to find them a better option, and if they say no, just be like "No problem. Call me if you change your mind!"

Professionalism at all levels.

You want to have long term results, referrals, more sales and more customers... You don't want to hunt people down, burn relationships, and lose clients. This doesn't mean to be lazy, you still have to work hard to get the sale and do everything as promptly as possible - and know what you are doing (what your product is, things like that).

You still want to overcome objections and questions, too, but you should only do so honestly.
 

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Wanted to post this for some time .
I want to rant about the usual "Sales" mindset that nearly all salespeople seem to have.

Reading SPIN selling is one of the best things I'm doing right now. As I'm going for the book, I'm more and more grateful finding out that Sales isn't actually what most people and professionals believe and think.
It looks like everyone sustains that sales is all about Charisma, being SUPER Extroverted, SUPER Aggressive, SUPER Friendly and making everyone your BEST PAL like you're in kindergarten school and you found out the other guy who does the same figures with Play-Doh as you do .
I mean WTF ???

I'm pissed and relieved at the same time.
The first because I've wasted months trying MY BEST at this approach on sales. I mean HARD EFFORT. And ZERO RESULTS. Which is EXTRA FRUSTRATING.
Relieved to find out that this is all bullshit and sales is actually much more about finding problems and shifting your costumer prespective on why your solution fits them. IF IT ACTUALLY DOES.

How can It be that for the majority of the sector you have to be so pushy, aggressive, friendly and NOT yourself ??? In the last job I was told I wasn't aggressive enough. What The Hell, do I have to murder the guy or what ???

My question is where do you think this comes from ?

Maybe if your friends with someone they will be more likely to buy, but that can't be an entire sales' tradition foundations right ?
Did this get some results so everyone went all in ? By reading SPIN selling it seems that every idea about selling is wrong and it needed extensive research to prove otherwise



Sorry if this is all over the place. Mods feel to move section if this isn't right
Most sales books are “get rich quick scheme” that aim to profit from people who want to learn sales.

Most practical sales advice are not sexy but business/sales people just do not not want to hear that (just like why people buy fat loss manuals but would hate if it is just about eating less and working out more. People hate truth and love short cuts(even where there isn’t).

Forget about aggressive selling that we know which will not work, even “consultative selling” is just a spin. People know that you are selling and have no time for your pretense. Most consultative selling, as being marketed today, are delusional pretensions.

Most things are beyond a sales’ person’ control. One of the best advice I can think of is to develop a good reputation of not wasting your client’s time, which is also hence saving your time. The best value that a sales person can provide is living up to the promise of “no obligation for the client” which most sales book teach you to lie on that. When you truly fulfill that promise people have no more fear interacting with sales people, knowing that they can explore what benefits that are possible and walk away anytime when they feel like it, for whatever reason that is not of our (sales people) concern.
 

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How can It be that for the majority of the sector you have to be so pushy, aggressive, friendly and NOT yourself ??? In the last job I was told I wasn't aggressive enough. What The Hell, do I have to murder the guy or what ???
As Dan Peña says just rip their heads off and take their motherfucking dough…

View: https://youtu.be/miJI-LWRerA
 
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Itizn

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Chiming in to say, if you are starting in a niche market or catering to an audience you aren't well versed in, the following is likely to be true: it will take time for you to comprehend what it is you're actually selling.

For the longest time I thought I was selling equipment (which is indeed an aspect of what I do) but taking it one step further, in actuality my core offering is providing service which solves a prospects problem. Very generic description right there but hopefully the core point is delivered.

The way this all ties in with the rant is that while traditional sales training and strategies (personally a fan of B.Dennehy & B.Casella) can be quite effective, my suggestion is to extract the attributes you find useful from said training. If you try following these strategies via a rigid outline, more often than not it results in uncomfortable and undesirable dialogue.

That's been my experience anyway.
 

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Holy hell, guys.

This thread is filled with sweeping generalizations that have no basis in reality.

Professional salespeople are not "pushy", they're not "large intimidating men", they're not trying to trick people into signing the dotted line for something they don't want or need.

  1. Sales is leadership. Leadership doesn't always mean "people follow me", it means "I go first" -- when you truly believe in a product, a service, or an idea you want to share it with others.

  2. Professional salespeople are akin to doctors. They diagnose problems and write prescriptions. You would be really freaked out if you sat down with a doctor that said "look at all my degrees! See how cool my stethoscope is? Check out how nice my office is!" -- no -- they literally say "what seems to be the problem? what pain are you experiencing?"

  3. You've got to be proud of being a salesperson. Nothing in this world HAPPENS without it being sold. Your computer you're typing on, your phone you're scrolling on, the chair you're sitting in. If you have a real desire to learn sales go back to J Douglas Edwards. (
    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV1-7_xanO4
    )
I don't know where this stuff started, @Vinz but it's clear most of the people responding to this BELIEVE in that old crap! :smile2:
 

Vinz

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Vinz

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Holy hell, guys.

This thread is filled with sweeping generalizations that have no basis in reality.

Professional salespeople are not "pushy", they're not "large intimidating men", they're not trying to trick people into signing the dotted line for something they don't want or need.

  1. Sales is leadership. Leadership doesn't always mean "people follow me", it means "I go first" -- when you truly believe in a product, a service, or an idea you want to share it with others.

  2. Professional salespeople are akin to doctors. They diagnose problems and write prescriptions. You would be really freaked out if you sat down with a doctor that said "look at all my degrees! See how cool my stethoscope is? Check out how nice my office is!" -- no -- they literally say "what seems to be the problem? what pain are you experiencing?"

  3. You've got to be proud of being a salesperson. Nothing in this world HAPPENS without it being sold. Your computer you're typing on, your phone you're scrolling on, the chair you're sitting in. If you have a real desire to learn sales go back to J Douglas Edwards. (
    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV1-7_xanO4
    )
I don't know where this stuff started, @Vinz but it's clear most of the people responding to this BELIEVE in that old crap! :smile2:
Hey Steve, actually from reading the answers I got the impression that most people here know that that style of selling is crap and not based on reality...

Probably yours is the most useful response, then again I see people here are on the "not too aggressive" but also "not too backed down" type of stuff

And yes, I do have a real desire to learn sales.
 

Kung Fu Steve

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Hey Steve, actually from reading the answers I got the impression that most people here know that that style of selling is crap and not based on reality...

Probably yours is the most useful response, then again I see people here are on the "not too aggressive" but also "not too backed down" type of stuff

And yes, I do have a real desire to learn sales.

The best lesson, I've ever learned: HILA. (High Intention, Low Attachment).

External pressure comes from hard-closing or "Objection handling" ... this gets people to move sometimes (especially if they feel inferior to you) -- but the problem is it often ends up in refunds or unsatisfied customers. Because while you think you've "handled" the objection, it's actually just external pressure.

Internal pressure is what true sales leaders create. YOU tell ME why you need this. If you can clearly articulate to me your problem, the pain it's costing it, what you're losing out on, and that you have a clear gap from where you are to where you want to be, and you believe in the process I'm sharing -- then they have internal pressure to buy and it has nothing to do with the salesperson.

If you have to close hard at the end, you didn't do your job upfront. To ENROLL someone, it's more about understanding and appreciating their world and giving them control of their enrollment experience with you.

The best guy I know asks 10 questions. 10 simple questions that if you get those answers before you ask for a commitment, you'll never get an objection again. I've spent hundreds of thousands on sales training and it's the best I've seen.

Beyond that, I've started reading books by a guy named Chase Hughes. VERY interesting guy. Says if you want to get the most information out of people, you should never ask a question. Little mind-blowingly advanced. Very fascinating. I've got a lot to learn about his techniques yet.
 

tony28

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My question was more on where does this originate
New member here, but have worked in enterprise software sales my entire career. It's really interesting to hear you call this out; SPIN selling by Neil Rackham was one of the first sales books published that actually broke down the various stages of selling and explained how to think of those stages - this is a solid foundational book for understanding sales.

To your question on origination - I think it's partially a product of culture and time; a lot of the older sales managers and sales folks were trained to be aggressive and 'close' as much as possible (this can work for small transactional sales, but for larger sales the likelihood of success is low). Part of the reason sales people love Glengarry Glen Ross is because of how ridiculous it is - most enterprise sales reps really have to take on a problem solver approach and work with customers to understand what the drivers are for a sale and whether there's enough ROI to go through with a transaction. The public perception of sales reps is really bad - the best sales reps are trusted advisors to their customers (i.e. don't focus on the sale, focus on solving your customers problem, quantify it and the sale will take care of itself). There are definitely times when it makes sense to be politely aggressive and push to get things done. If you listen to some of the more modern sales leaders in the SaaS world they're very empathetic, curious, and want to elevate reps to be the best they can be - the tides are slowly changing.
 
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WJK

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Could you explain more on the "low road" ? What do you think is a fair in-between ?
I described the method of selling that consists in asking lots of questions, and using the info you get to shift your product's value in the eye of the costumer
The low road is that they buy because they feel sorry for you. You play on their feelings. It has nothing to do with fulfilling their real need -- other than making them feel good about saving you through their purchase. It's a disgusting and pathic position to take -- and totally ingenious.

Either end of the spectrum is for losers. By doing either, you are NOT building a customer. You are only making a one-event sale that has a high chance of falling apart.

Selling has to do with finding a person's need or problem. That requires asking a lot of questions to assess their situation. It requires you to really listen with empathy. You then show them how they can solve it with your practical solution, and why it will work. Or you tell them that your product will not work for them... and why. If you must convenience the person to buy, you have already lost.

What you described in most of your posts has NO dignity or honesty. Bullying is the tactics of a grifter and a cheat. But, I can also tell you that bullies are cowards and they are an easy mark for other bullies.
 

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I've been dealing with a lot of salesman lately. So many stupid tactics the one I find funny is when you make a deal and they start to ask for references and also about how they are always free to book more. FFS just facilitate the deal on hand before we get married.
 

fastlaner_1992

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Wanted to post this for some time .
I want to rant about the usual "Sales" mindset that nearly all salespeople seem to have.

Reading SPIN selling is one of the best things I'm doing right now. As I'm going for the book, I'm more and more grateful finding out that Sales isn't actually what most people and professionals believe and think.
It looks like everyone sustains that sales is all about Charisma, being SUPER Extroverted, SUPER Aggressive, SUPER Friendly and making everyone your BEST PAL like you're in kindergarten school and you found out the other guy who does the same figures with Play-Doh as you do .
I mean WTF ???

I'm pissed and relieved at the same time.
The first because I've wasted months trying MY BEST at this approach on sales. I mean HARD EFFORT. And ZERO RESULTS. Which is EXTRA FRUSTRATING.
Relieved to find out that this is all bullshit and sales is actually much more about finding problems and shifting your costumer prespective on why your solution fits them. IF IT ACTUALLY DOES.

How can It be that for the majority of the sector you have to be so pushy, aggressive, friendly and NOT yourself ??? In the last job I was told I wasn't aggressive enough. What The Hell, do I have to murder the guy or what ???

My question is where do you think this comes from ?

Maybe if your friends with someone they will be more likely to buy, but that can't be an entire sales' tradition foundations right ?
Did this get some results so everyone went all in ? By reading SPIN selling it seems that every idea about selling is wrong and it needed extensive research to prove otherwise



Sorry if this is all over the place. Mods feel to move section if this isn't right
If something is valuable, it's already half sold in someone's mind. I don't need to be sold by ASDA when ordering my food shopping because food is extremely valuable to me (because it keeps me alive), so I wouldn't need to be convinced that I should buy it.

We have to create something so valuable that you'd feel stupid and at a loss to say no - I think that this is a major secret to sales.
 
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Kevin88660

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My own take from my own experience selling to C

1)Manipulation does not work

2) Numbers game as well as duration game. (number of leads x time). The big deal that was lost last year is closed this year

3) Passive rather Active (Very counterintuitive but I will explain). Clients decides if and when they buy, in what quantity not you. Any attempt to influence the outcome through sales tactics will backfire. Customer close themselves not you. If you need to demonstrate value to even ignite interest, the war is already lost. Go back to prospecting and leads generation.

4) Focus on improving the value/cost of your offer. You competitors will eventually create the sales opportunity for you. It is all about competition and comparing these days. Let your competitors do the heavy lifting of creating market awareness. You just reap the reward later when you can outperform in value and undercut them, when your clients and leaders ask you to compare for quotes. It is quite impossible for your competitors to invest more in marketing and still run a service/product that is still more cost effective/provide more value relative to cost.

5) Read your customers and leads. Not persuade. Persuasion seldom works. People rarely change their own mind without going through events/experience that lead them to do so. It is more about reading what is in their state if mind right now. Are they ready to buy now and just want to seek for more confirmation? Are they just looking for information are still far away from pressing the buy button? Or Maybe they are not interested but just too shy to say no? If someone clearly express interest but said they need more time, it could be “I need to compare with your competitor before making the decision but saying that outright is too rude”.
 

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My current manager in my sales job is trying to force me to use the goofiest, cheesiest sales scripts. He's new though and desperate to make an impression. It's so damn painful and the entire team of 10 want to quit now.

Everything they want us to do has the exact opposite results of what they're hoping for so I just CANNOT figure out why they persist with it. The customer can tell they're being sold to and hate it, and your staff eventually hate their job because you're making them annoy the living shit out of people. I just don't get it.

My best results come from identifying a customer asap, which means making a bit of an assumption based on demographics and their initial attitude towards me, tailoring my approach to that, and trying my best to make it seem like I'm not actually a salesperson. The second you put pressure on people with old crappy sales tactics they've heard a million times before, it purely becomes about price, and the process is painful. You're annoying them rather than helping them. And because you're annoying the shit out of them, you damn well better have a much better price to get them to bother to switch. Annoyance tax lol.

I refused to do what he's asking, so it's not a pleasant place for me at the moment. I just can't get my head around why they want me to do something that makes my results worse.
 

Vinz

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New member here, but have worked in enterprise software sales my entire career. It's really interesting to hear you call this out; SPIN selling by Neil Rackham was one of the first sales books published that actually broke down the various stages of selling and explained how to think of those stages - this is a solid foundational book for understanding sales.

To your question on origination - I think it's partially a product of culture and time; a lot of the older sales managers and sales folks were trained to be aggressive and 'close' as much as possible (this can work for small transactional sales, but for larger sales the likelihood of success is low). Part of the reason sales people love Glengarry Glen Ross is because of how ridiculous it is - most enterprise sales reps really have to take on a problem solver approach and work with customers to understand what the drivers are for a sale and whether there's enough ROI to go through with a transaction. The public perception of sales reps is really bad - the best sales reps are trusted advisors to their customers (i.e. don't focus on the sale, focus on solving your customers problem, quantify it and the sale will take care of itself). There are definitely times when it makes sense to be politely aggressive and push to get things done. If you listen to some of the more modern sales leaders in the SaaS world they're very empathetic, curious, and want to elevate reps to be the best they can be - the tides are slowly changing.
Good to hear things are changing. It might be time.

Honestly I don't want to deal with sales if it really meant not caring about the costumer or even trying to solve their problem.

I've been dealing with a lot of salesman lately. So many stupid tactics the one I find funny is when you make a deal and they start to ask for references and also about how they are always free to book more. FFS just facilitate the deal on hand before we get married.
Funny is if you treat people well and concentrate on giving them the best solution they will reference you by themselves with much more involvement and efficiency. MJ in his books talks about how customer service is the dealbreaker of most big companies.
You really have to put the customer first and it has always paid for me
My own take from my own experience selling to C

1)Manipulation does not work

2) Numbers game as well as duration game. (number of leads x time). The big deal that was lost last year is closed this year

3) Passive rather Active (Very counterintuitive but I will explain). Clients decides if and when they buy, in what quantity not you. Any attempt to influence the outcome through sales tactics will backfire. Customer close themselves not you. If you need to demonstrate value to even ignite interest, the war is already lost. Go back to prospecting and leads generation.

4) Focus on improving the value/cost of your offer. You competitors will eventually create the sales opportunity for you. It is all about competition and comparing these days. Let your competitors do the heavy lifting of creating market awareness. You just reap the reward later when you can outperform in value and undercut them, when your clients and leaders ask you to compare for quotes. It is quite impossible for your competitors to invest more in marketing and still run a service/product that is still more cost effective/provide more value relative to cost.

5) Read your customers and leads. Not persuade. Persuasion seldom works. People rarely change their own mind without going through events/experience that lead them to do so. It is more about reading what is in their state if mind right now. Are they ready to buy now and just want to seek for more confirmation? Are they just looking for information are still far away from pressing the buy button? Or Maybe they are not interested but just too shy to say no? If someone clearly express interest but said they need more time, it could be “I need to compare with your competitor before making the decision but saying that outright is too rude”.
Thanks for the feedback ! Now I'm mostly talking about sales in my job, so I don't control the product and the offer, although they are still fortunately good

I think thought that a little bit of "sales tactics" can help. At least in my current position some pressure can be good. But then as you said you don't want to bother or alienate them
My current manager in my sales job is trying to force me to use the goofiest, cheesiest sales scripts. He's new though and desperate to make an impression. It's so damn painful and the entire team of 10 want to quit now.

Everything they want us to do has the exact opposite results of what they're hoping for so I just CANNOT figure out why they persist with it. The customer can tell they're being sold to and hate it, and your staff eventually hate their job because you're making them annoy the living shit out of people. I just don't get it.

My best results come from identifying a customer asap, which means making a bit of an assumption based on demographics and their initial attitude towards me, tailoring my approach to that, and trying my best to make it seem like I'm not actually a salesperson. The second you put pressure on people with old crappy sales tactics they've heard a million times before, it purely becomes about price, and the process is painful. You're annoying them rather than helping them. And because you're annoying the shit out of them, you damn well better have a much better price to get them to bother to switch. Annoyance tax lol.

I refused to do what he's asking, so it's not a pleasant place for me at the moment. I just can't get my head around why they want me to do something that makes my results worse.
Continue going your way, hopefully your manager will see the difference in results you are getting
 
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Samson Little

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Jan 14, 2022
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Wanted to post this for some time .
I want to rant about the usual "Sales" mindset that nearly all salespeople seem to have.

Reading SPIN selling is one of the best things I'm doing right now. As I'm going for the book, I'm more and more grateful finding out that Sales isn't actually what most people and professionals believe and think.
It looks like everyone sustains that sales is all about Charisma, being SUPER Extroverted, SUPER Aggressive, SUPER Friendly and making everyone your BEST PAL like you're in kindergarten school and you found out the other guy who does the same figures with Play-Doh as you do .
I mean WTF ???

I'm pissed and relieved at the same time.
The first because I've wasted months trying MY BEST at this approach on sales. I mean HARD EFFORT. And ZERO RESULTS. Which is EXTRA FRUSTRATING.
Relieved to find out that this is all bullshit and sales is actually much more about finding problems and shifting your costumer prespective on why your solution fits them. IF IT ACTUALLY DOES.

How can It be that for the majority of the sector you have to be so pushy, aggressive, friendly and NOT yourself ??? In the last job I was told I wasn't aggressive enough. What The Hell, do I have to murder the guy or what ???

My question is where do you think this comes from ?

Maybe if your friends with someone they will be more likely to buy, but that can't be an entire sales' tradition foundations right ?
Did this get some results so everyone went all in ? By reading SPIN selling it seems that every idea about selling is wrong and it needed extensive research to prove otherwise



Sorry if this is all over the place. Mods feel to move section if this isn't right
I think the whole perspective of a pushy salesman or women can be perceived as something its not, at the end of the day the job of a sales rep should always be to solve problems with the correct target audience,to provide value,and build the gap between where the client is now to where they want to be with the product/prgoramme they have to offer.

At the end of the day,you have the solution and they don't otherwise, nine times out if ten they wouldn't be contacting you or vice versa.

Always hold the alpha state.
Build the gap from where they are now to where they want to be.

And always always go in with a nothing in return mindset and detaching from the yes.

You'll hate your life a whole lot less with those last two.

 

BizyDad

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Geez Louise and child please.

A hammer is a terrible interesting way to get a screw into wood. And if I see a bunch of somebodys hammering screws into wood, I'm not going to sit here and say that hammers don't work or that screws always tear up wood.

My point is, sales tactics are just tools. Use the right tools for the job.

I'm a big fan of spin selling. Socratic selling. Asking a lot of questions and making the sales. Built my entire sales career around it. Built two businesses around it. Have taught it to dozens of people. Huge fan.

But all these people in this thread saying that aggressive sales tactics don't work are just fooling themselves.

Aggressive sales tactics exist because aggressive sales tactics work.

And for certain types of products marketed to certain types of people through certain types of mediums, they work better than question-based selling.

If you don't want to be aggressive salesperson, cool. That's respectable. I'm not here to say you have to be anything.

Saying that aggressive sales tactics don't work is out of touch with reality.

Where did it originate? I don't know, I'm guessing hawkers in open air markets in the middle east or Africa circa 5,000 years ago. I'm sure history is full of examples of successful aggressive sales tactics.

Aggressive sales tactics is how a man named Crassus became the richest man in Rome. History of firefighting - Wikipedia

And aggressive sales tactics is how many internet sales happen. Don't believe me? How many sales pages do you know that don't put an artificial time limit on their offering to induce higher sales volume?

My partner and I closed our purchase of an existing e-commerce store on the 31st. January is historically one of our two slowest months of the year. Two weeks ago I told my partner we might have to put a little extra money into the business to tide over cash flow. Be ready.

Well, our biggest supplier is upping prices tomorrow. We leveraged the crap out of that in our sales calls this month.

Don't forget, prices go up on the 15th get your order in before then.

Today was the 6th best all time sales day. We're on pace for a record month. If the current sales trend hold, will be 30% higher than our previous best January ever.

Even if the trend won't hold, we're already 80% to our projected sales figure for the month. And I was worried... Haha.

Amazon has "Prime Day". Does Amazon really need Prime Day? In addition to Black Friday?

Side note, what better example is there of high pressure sales being effective than people literally sleeping overnight in front of your store? The open air hawker of yesteryear would be so jealous of Walmart today.

I digress. Funny thing is, I was looking at some of the prices on Prime Day but didn't buy, and I was able to get those prices at other times.

So that's just high pressure sales tactics at work.

Get it today or prices go up. That's essentially no different than what me and my partner did. Every additional prime member is just part of their numbers game.

Pump up the drama, add a deadline, and print money. It's all psychological pressure of one form or another.

Before Amazon, there was the blue light special.

Infomercials have time limits on their sales.

Elon Musk wants you to buy electric cars and go solar before it's too late to save the planet. What's more high pressure than save the Earth? He sold the government on funding for it. I'm convinced part of his mission to Mars thing is just to keep alive the thought that we can't save the earth fast enough.

Not everybody needs these tactics. That's true. There's plenty of ways to close a sale.

Still, these tactics worked before Crassus and will work long after Bezos. If humans are on Mars, they'll work on Mars.

Tools are just tools. Human nature is human nature.

And sales professionals know when to use the right tools in the right circumstances.
 

BizyDad

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Holy hell, guys.

This thread is filled with sweeping generalizations that have no basis in reality.

Professional salespeople are not "pushy", they're not "large intimidating men", they're not trying to trick people into signing the dotted line for something they don't want or need.

  1. Sales is leadership. Leadership doesn't always mean "people follow me", it means "I go first" -- when you truly believe in a product, a service, or an idea you want to share it with others.

  2. Professional salespeople are akin to doctors. They diagnose problems and write prescriptions. You would be really freaked out if you sat down with a doctor that said "look at all my degrees! See how cool my stethoscope is? Check out how nice my office is!" -- no -- they literally say "what seems to be the problem? what pain are you experiencing?"

  3. You've got to be proud of being a salesperson. Nothing in this world HAPPENS without it being sold. Your computer you're typing on, your phone you're scrolling on, the chair you're sitting in. If you have a real desire to learn sales go back to J Douglas Edwards. (
    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV1-7_xanO4
    )
I don't know where this stuff started, @Vinz but it's clear most of the people responding to this BELIEVE in that old crap! :smile2:

Great video share. In the beginning I feel like every other line is straight quoteable. This has a Mad Men meets Coffee for closers vibe. I could listen to this guy talk and talk.

"...and when he doesn't know what it is... he doubts it."

"Use people language!"

"The very words you use make them decide they don't want to be what you are."

"Sell opportunities."

Hey, wait, Mr Sales Guy, I make pitches!! Hahahaha. Oh, I'm not a pitchman, and I do make presentations too. Ok.

"Don't try to show off how smart you are."

"If you move into a punch you're going to die!"

Conditions vs objections.

"The smartest salesmen seek out objections."

"The one person you're not going to sell is the one that raises no objections." (So true)

"I can see why you feel that way about it..."

Step 1. Hahahahahahaha. Step 1 is so important!!

"Of course it does, sir."

I'm just gonna stop there.

This guy is awesome. I might actually change a couple things I do. Thanks again for the share.

(Hey wait, the video cut out mid sentence?!?! That's a heck of a tactic... )
 
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Kung Fu Steve

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Great video share. In the beginning I feel like every other line is straight quoteable. This has a Mad Men meets Coffee for closers vibe. I could listen to this guy talk and talk.

"...and when he doesn't know what it is... he doubts it."

"Use people language!"

"The very words you use make them decide they don't want to be what you are."

"Sell opportunities."

Hey, wait, Mr Sales Guy, I make pitches!! Hahahaha. Oh, I'm not a pitchman, and I do make presentations too. Ok.

"Don't try to show off how smart you are."

"If you move into a punch you're going to die!"

Conditions vs objections.

"The smartest salesmen seek out objections."

"The one person you're not going to sell is the one that raises no objections." (So true)

"I can see why you feel that way about it..."

Step 1. Hahahahahahaha. Step 1 is so important!!

"Of course it does, sir."

I'm just gonna stop there.

This guy is awesome. I might actually change a couple things I do. Thanks again for the share.

(Hey wait, the video cut out mid sentence?!?! That's a heck of a tactic... )

RIGHT!? He's so good! Super short. To the point. Zero fluff. I love it.
 

RussRussman18

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This is just my theory.

Most "natural born salesmen", ie, the type of people that could sell ice to eskimos, and can manipulate most anyone with ease, do it through extremely subtle and dialed in body language and verbal queues, vis a vis NLP (actual CIA/KGB level NLP, that a normal person would have to go through years of intensive one-on-one training to develop). In my experience, most of them are not even fully conscious of the things they are doing, because they are either genetic or learned from parents at an extremely early age. They genuinely don't know the reason for their sales success, so they base it on the behaviors that they ARE conscious of, which more often than not is very low-inhib, aggressive, etc. So when these guys create sales courses or write books, that is what they put in them. But these are not the traits that actually make them good at sales. Most of these salesmen are actually abysmal at "logical sales", like spin selling, and so stay in B2C sales their whole lives
 

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