Fox's 2019 Make $100k Starting Web Design from Scratch Challenge

[Fox]

The gym website looks fantastic Fox

Thanks dude - it’s helping to sell more deals already.

 

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[Anakalypsi]

ew video up.

This is starting to move in the direction I was aiming for - real details and info about actual website projects. Still a long way to go with production but this is the video I am probably most happy with so far.

Again Nice Vid @Fox

I really enjoy seeing your progress and I really like your spirit and the way you tackle life. Keep it up man.

 

[The Abundant Man]

Thanks dude - it’s helping to sell more deals already.

People at the gym start telling everybody they know about the website?

 

[The Abundant Man]

If Fox or another member wants some work under their belt for their portfolio I have a website that could use some improvements or even be redesigned all together. I will give you a testimonial afterwards too.

I can help you with your website

 

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[Fox]

People at the gym start telling everybody they know about the website?

Nah more the owners of the gym. They have some decent connections and I have been active in asking them for more leads. Business owners usually know a lot of other business owners so I always build the best relationship possible.

This weeks video.

I had fun shooting this one but hopefully not too "rambly". I want people to get a lot of value in return for the time they spend watching any video so still working that side of things.

 

[Daniel Tidwell]

I can help you with your website

I replied to that guy too, got one email but haven't heard back yet. Doesn't seem very interested, wants an ecommerce website but doesn't even know what to sell, so to me doesn't seem like a project hes really invested into much at the moment.

 

[Daniel Tidwell]

Nah more the owners of the gym. They have some decent connections and I have been active in asking them for more leads. Business owners usually know a lot of other business owners so I always build the best relationship possible.

This weeks video.

I had fun shooting this one but hopefully not too "rambly". I want people to get a lot of value in return for the time they spend watching any video so still working that side of things.

Great video. Really I seriously have been working on getting a web design biz going since like sept of last year (which is why I found you and am here), so what I really need to see are all the little details no one talks about, and really see how running a biz like this is day to day, so I really appreciate content like this. I can't wait to see your actual first real sale. I don't think you should be able to use your personal network though, I feel you should use only tactics everyone else can use. I honestly don't have a personal network, although I guess I should be making one once I have some good portfolio projects under my belt.

 

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[Fox]

Great video. Really I seriously have been working on getting a web design biz going since like sept of last year (which is why I found you and am here), so what I really need to see are all the little details no one talks about, and really see how running a biz like this is day to day, so I really appreciate content like this. I can't wait to see your actual first real sale. I don't think you should be able to use your personal network though, I feel you should use only tactics everyone else can use. I honestly don't have a personal network, although I guess I should be making one once I have some good portfolio projects under my belt.

So with the personal network I only do it in a way that would be similar to anyone else. I don't use this forum, the FB group, The YT channel etc.

I reached out to normal (non web design) people I know and asked them to look out for anyone who might be looking for a website. The deal in the video above has already fallen through - these aren't strong personal network deals by any means.

At the end of the day, I can't replicate everyone's circumstances with the challenge. I got people following from all over, with all sorts of personal challenges, and so it would be impossible to please everyone.

With a personal network though it is something, anyone can do. Join some clubs, meet some people, offer to help some business owners for free, walk in some doors and say hello. I see this as pretty basic so its something I am going to use in the challenge. Anyone is capable of getting out of the house and connecting with people. And then asking those people if they know more people. The deal is a free website so it's not hard to get the word out there.

 

[Anakalypsi]

Nah more the owners of the gym. They have some decent connections and I have been active in asking them for more leads. Business owners usually know a lot of other business owners so I always build the best relationship possible.

This weeks video.

I had fun shooting this one but hopefully not too "rambly". I want people to get a lot of value in return for the time they spend watching any video so still working that side of things.

@Fox your Video Skills are amazing I think and the way you've embedded the GYM Video on the Initial Screen is just marvelous!

Have you reached that dude who you tried to phone? If not I'd suggest you use a technique I've learned in the great book of "Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on" from Chris Voss.

Basically, it goes like this. You're asking one last time "Have you given up on this project?" or more spefically in your case "Have you given up on creating (fill in specifics of his opportunity)".

This will act as the last time chance for him to act. It works somewhat counterintuitive by getting to a "NO" instead of the wide known getting to a "YES" and gives one more space to make the situation more clear. At least that's how I understood it.

In case you're more interested in that book, I can highly recommend the audible version.

 

[Fox]

Thanks - the deal is gone though. They have a local grant for websites, 50% tax back if you hire someone local (something like that). So lost out on that one but I’m not overly worried. Will be lots more soon.

Thanks for the post though. I have that book but have yet to start into it.

 

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[Daniel Tidwell]

So with the personal network I only do it in a way that would be similar to anyone else. I don't use this forum, the FB group, The YT channel etc.

I reached out to normal (non web design) people I know and asked them to look out for anyone who might be looking for a website. The deal in the video above has already fallen through - these aren't strong personal network deals by any means.

At the end of the day, I can't replicate everyone's circumstances with the challenge. I got people following from all over, with all sorts of personal challenges, and so it would be impossible to please everyone.

With a personal network though it is something, anyone can do. Join some clubs, meet some people, offer to help some business owners for free, walk in some doors and say hello. I see this as pretty basic so its something I am going to use in the challenge. Anyone is capable of getting out of the house and connecting with people. And then asking those people if they know more people. The deal is a free website so it's not hard to get the word out there.

Thanks for the advice, I will take it.

 

[Fox]

Latest video is up...

I got the opportunity to help a local construction business create more leads and if successful I will earn a % on any sales. Pretty challenging project but I feel solid about it.

 

[thedigitalmisfit]

Latest video is up...

I got the opportunity to help a local construction business create more leads and if successful I will earn a % on any sales. Pretty challenging project but I feel solid about it.

Great video Rob. Looking forward to seeing how this goes, especially the tracking side of things. I'd say it's tricky enough to do but looking forward to seeing how you do this.

 

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[Wiezel]

@Fox What skills do you recommend the most if you want to start from scratch?

Reading the thread I would go with HTML - CSS - SEO and know how to sell (sales). Anything to add to it?

 

[Danczyk]

@Fox What skills do you recommend the most if you want to start from scratch?

Reading the thread I would go with HTML - CSS - SEO and know how to sell (sales). Anything to add to it?

What is your reason for learning all that? Do you want to be a one man show or open your own business?

I am curious is Netherlands also like some other countries like Denmark where you can't send a cold email?

About your questions:

I would first learn how HTML and CSS interact with each other. HTML is generally easy to learn even in a weekend if you are into it.

With CSS I would recommend you to learn the basics first but then use grids or flexbox with it. It makes everything so easy. No bs like float and such. And one of the main points is that you should be able to make a site responsive. Which means it adapts to every device. Don't worry it's not that complicated.

I love the content of traversy media on youtube. I am not affiliated with him but he is fantastic at teaching and giving so much information for free. Go to his channel and search for the word beginner. I myself have mad respect for him.

But again why are you interested in all this? If it is for quick bucks forget it. As @Fox said what do you offer the client?

 

[WillHurtDontCare]

@Fox do you use git or a similar service? When I programmed for my 9-5 version control helped immensely for when I inevitably realized that I had to undo mistakes. I would recommend learning git to anyone here who writes code for a living.

You should likely avoid making copyrighted material (theme forest or anything that you build for a client) publicly available, but there are private git repos (version control folders essentially) so that you can back up changes and undo them later.

 

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[WillHurtDontCare]

Also, remember to vet your clients to know that you are not getting scammed. I am working on an Upwork freebie when I considered that I took on someone with no previous hires and I did not vet him. That was a massively stupid thing to do, though 7 account password changes later I realized that it was likely a false alarm (he sent me his social media). Be cautious of who you deal with.

 

[WillHurtDontCare]

Also remember do not limit yourself by the price of a project, but by the value that you can provide to a customer with a project. A $10K project might be even easier than a $2K simply because the $10K project came from a client with a much bigger budget, not because the work was inherently more difficult. Don't create arbitrary mental barriers for yourself. If company A will pay you $10K for a project but company B will only pay you $2K for an identical project, you aren't a 5x better web designer / copywriter for picking company A, but a 5x better prospector.

The inspiration for this idea came from a really valuable insight taken from a member of Fox's Make Money with Web Design Facebook group:

"I have a theory, and it's something I think a lot of experienced guys here will agree with. The $1,000-$2,000 site range could be the HARDEST to enter. This is why "bottom-up" sales will screw you. The people that will spend 1-2k on a site recognize that they're worth more than a starter site, but may not have the cashflow to commit to what they're worth. Business is hard, and when you're in the intermediate stage, it feels important to appear professional but often times the budget gets in the way. It is for this reason that I believe most people will hit a plateau.

If you're hitting this barrier, stop trying to climb the barrier. Walk right past it. This is where "top-down sales" comes into play. Starting with your highest, most seemingly unachievable client, sell to them then work your way down. Even though selling to top businesses takes more work, There's a few reasons you should do this. The first is that you will learn a TON. Forcing yourself to dig into a corporate structure will teach you a lot about who gets what calls, who makes what decisions, and the language they speak. You'll learn about what they want to hear, and what will get you hung up on. You'll learn how to talk with gatekeepers and not sound as salesy, which means you'll bypass a lot more gatekeepers."

 

[GuitarManDan]

Also remember do not limit yourself by the price of a project, but by the value that you can provide to a customer with a project. A $10K project might be even easier than a $2K simply because the $10K project came from a client with a much bigger budget, not because the work was inherently more difficult. Don't create arbitrary mental barriers for yourself. If company A will pay you $10K for a project but company B will only pay you $2K for an identical project, you aren't a 5x better web designer / copywriter for picking company A, but a 5x better prospector.

The inspiration for this idea came from a really valuable insight taken from a member of Fox's Make Money with Web Design Facebook group:

"I have a theory, and it's something I think a lot of experienced guys here will agree with. The $1,000-$2,000 site range could be the HARDEST to enter. This is why "bottom-up" sales will screw you. The people that will spend 1-2k on a site recognize that they're worth more than a starter site, but may not have the cashflow to commit to what they're worth. Business is hard, and when you're in the intermediate stage, it feels important to appear professional but often times the budget gets in the way. It is for this reason that I believe most people will hit a plateau.

If you're hitting this barrier, stop trying to climb the barrier. Walk right past it. This is where "top-down sales" comes into play. Starting with your highest, most seemingly unachievable client, sell to them then work your way down. Even though selling to top businesses takes more work, There's a few reasons you should do this. The first is that you will learn a TON. Forcing yourself to dig into a corporate structure will teach you a lot about who gets what calls, who makes what decisions, and the language they speak. You'll learn about what they want to hear, and what will get you hung up on. You'll learn how to talk with gatekeepers and not sound as salesy, which means you'll bypass a lot more gatekeepers."

Absolutely solid advice for anyone starting off. As someone who's been running a web design/SEO business for about a year and a half now, this is 100% accurate.

The $800-$2k or so range is the most competitive and the clients are the most difficult. They want the world for $1000 and nit pick every little detail.

This video was an absolute game changer for me, so much wisdom here that made me think about all of this differently when I was starting off and afraid to charge what I considered "high prices".

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKXZ7t_RiOE


If you run any kind of services business, you won't regret checking this one out.

 

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[Real Deal Denver]

Absolutely solid advice for anyone starting off. As someone who's been running a web design/SEO business for about a year and a half now, this is 100% accurate.

The $800-$2k or so range is the most competitive and the clients are the most difficult. They want the world for $1000 and nit pick every little detail.

This video was an absolute game changer for me, so much wisdom here that made me think about all of this differently when I was starting off and afraid to charge what I considered "high prices".

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKXZ7t_RiOE


If you run any kind of services business, you won't regret checking this one out.

Wow - I am going to watch this video several times.

Came at just the right time, as I am figuring out costs for services right now.

Thanks for such a fantastic video link!

 

[srodrigo]

Absolutely solid advice for anyone starting off. As someone who's been running a web design/SEO business for about a year and a half now, this is 100% accurate.

The $800-$2k or so range is the most competitive and the clients are the most difficult. They want the world for $1000 and nit pick every little detail.

This video was an absolute game changer for me, so much wisdom here that made me think about all of this differently when I was starting off and afraid to charge what I considered "high prices".

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKXZ7t_RiOE


If you run any kind of services business, you won't regret checking this one out.

This video is GOLD.

Also, a book called Breaking The Time Barrier talks about the same idea. Worth reading.

 

[WillHurtDontCare]

Per a conversation that I had with @Valor

"One thing I'd say though that I've seen a lot of other web design guys mention, you might want to look for businesses with outdated sites rather than businesses with no sites. Often times, businesses with no sites don't really see the value in it or aren't looking to grow their business.

Reaching out to actual "businesses" rather than contractors or freelancers can make a difference too, as many contractors/freelancers already have busy schedules and don't have the systems in place to easily take on more business nor are they necessarily interested in it. It'd be like if you as a web designer had a packed schedule and could hardly keep up, and someone came along offering to give you more business - you can only take on so much work, where an actual business with employees, etc. already has the capacity to take on extra work. Just something else to keep in mind."

 

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[WillHurtDontCare]

I recommend Nimbus Screenshot Nimbus Capture - - Take screenshots and record video from your screen for checking for unintentional white space. It lets you take screenshots of the full page & other smaller screenshots. It's also useful for sending screenshots of your website to your clients. I found some white & grey that I couldn't see just by scrolling & would have appeared on a larger screen.

 

[WillHurtDontCare]

I went through the web design course back in October of last year but didn't make the jump to picking up clients. I started going through the same course again after picking up a simple project on Upwork. I am much more engaged this because I am using lessons from that course to solve specific problems that I am having editing the HTML theme.

Like the top contributors on this forum always say, you learn much faster by doing, so start before you are 100% ready (you'll never be 100% ready anyway).

 

[WillHurtDontCare]

This thread will be useful to people who get stuck debugging & wondering why their code isn't working at intended: GOLD! - A physicist's guide to learning hard things

You can waste a lot of time without making any progress if you don't say exactly what you're testing and whether or not it worked. It's easy to just try things at random and hope for the best and get nowhere (guilty).

Example: Unexpected white space on your final product.

3 Hypotheses:

1. Typo when defining class in HTML.
2. Typo when defining class in CSS.
3. Brackets live connect error.

Specifically write out what you think the problem is, then start testing and logging the results, that way with each test you get closer to the truth (and don't just go over the same tests again and again).

 

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[WillHurtDontCare]

One thing that has helped me with the Udemy course is using it in tandem with Github Desktop. Git allows you to submit multiple versions of code so that you can track changes over time (and revert them if you screw up!). It shows you only what you changed, so if you had a file with 1000 lines of code and you only changed 20 lines of code, it would show you at most 40 lines of code in the update (the 20 "before" lines of code and the 20 "after" lines of code).

I treat each lesson as a specific version, so I will look at Github Desktop and say "OK, I updated these 100 lines of code. What results in the webpage do they translate into?" It makes the learning more concrete when you literally see the results of your changes.

 

[WillHurtDontCare]

For anyone looking for help with the concepts of design, CA$HVERTISING (which has a decent following on the Fastlane Forum) recommends "Looking Good in Print" by Roger C. Parker:

"Looking Good in Print, by Roger C. Parker Coriolis Group Books (1998) Invaluable for anyone who wants to learn the basics of graphic design. Jam-packed and super-easy to read and understand. Highly recommended."

I just started it myself, but the following 3 excerpts lead me to believe that it will be worth my (and your) time:

Excerpt 1:

“If you’re unclear about the purpose of your project or unable to prioritize the different parts of your message, you’ll find the design process difficult and the results in effective.”

Excerpt 2:

"Before starting a project, ask yourself these questions:

• Who is the intended audience?
• What is the basic message I’m trying to communicate?
• In what format will readers encounter my message?
• What similar messages have my readers encountered from other sources or competitors?
• How does this publication relate to my other publications?

The more clearly you define your project’s purpose and environment, the stronger your design will be."

Excerpt 3:

“With so much power at your fingertips is easy to forget that straightforwardness is a virtue and graphic design should be invisible to the reader. Overuse of graphic gimmickry results in a cluttered look.”

 

[astr0]

Great thread, surely going for GOLD!

@Fox, your approach on adding as much value as possible and charging appropriately for that is definitely what many people miss in this field. And focus on covering Sales with this Challenge will help a lot of people here. It's really the hardest and the most important part!

I'm starting a company to help businesses build Type 2 projects from your "Make Money With Web Design" video but keeping in mind your approach as a backup plan. It seems way better than freelancing!

Would you mind answering some questions that will help me and probably other people here:

1. Let's assume someone was working on web design on his 9-5 or as a freelancer but wasn't doing web sites to help businesses get more sales. Is it worth to show that work as a portfolio to the first clients (still free)?
2. How do you plan to scale your business? Everything except sales seems quite easy to delegate but aren't you worried that salesmen would run away to start similar business pretty soon after they get a grasp on it?
3. Do you have any ideas on how to find prospects for type 2 projects? Finding someone who needs something done is pretty easy. Finding someone with funding secured is a completely different story. We were lucky to get some gold-plated gumball on Elance (now Upwork) on my first company but I don't think that Upwork is the best place now. A few business owners with similar businesses are quite open to sharing some useful information, but everything on clients seems to be their little secret. Or they just pull enough already. For now, a personal network seems to be the best source, but it doesn't scale. Cold calling/mailing businesses that might be unhappy with their current developers is an option. Ukrainian companies get a lot of half-done hard-to-maintain badly-codded projects that was started by developers from one Asian country (they also charge very low rates, so there must be something to it).
4. Your approach to adding as much value as possible and charging based on benefits for the client definitely also applies to type 1 projects (fancy design). Do you think it can be applied to type 2 as well? I'll give more context below, cause you may not be familiar with how those are usually done and that may be helpful to other people here too.

Type 2 projects (SaaS, web apps, apps etc.) usually require much more work than just web design. That also means they usually have higher budgets and clients count their money more carefully. Projects are done with these types of relationships:

• Dedicated developers (Team extension, Fixed team). The client just "rents" a developers/team full-time or part-time for a long period of time. Good for big projects. Good for both.
• Fixed price. The price for the whole project was negotiated upfront, usually, counted by estimated man-hours required to get it done. The client pays by milestones (parts of the project was done). Good for small projects (<600 hours, but depends on estimator's expertise). Good for both too, but quite risky for developers as things may go very wrong. They may go better as well.
• Time&Material. The client pays for done work, usually calculated by man-hours. Good for support or ongoing projects with tight budgets. The worst: hard to manage employee load, the clients sometimes unhappy with hours that took for the task (maybe cause they had a tight budget in the first place...).

So everything boils down to man-hours in one way or another. Of course, different people involved in a project have different hour-rates, but that doesn't change the picture.
Also, developers usually strictly do what the client says, so no value added here.

I see a few points of adding additional value:

• Deliver great quality. Both in look&feel and the code inside. This will possibly increase client profits and decrease project time.
• Be fast & always deliver in time.
• Suggest better ways to get the same results he wants.
• Suggest some additional work that would better be done for his business success (tracking some stats, A/B testing, design changes, simplifying things, removing features, reports, etc.).

First two points can justify higher rates. Other can make the client happier and help him to be more successful in his business.

Still, don't think it can be broken far apart from man-hour calculations.


Good luck! Hope you'll reach your goal even sooner!

 

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[srodrigo]

Type 2 projects (SaaS, web apps, apps etc.) usually require much more work than just web design. That also means they usually have higher budgets and clients count their money more carefully. Projects are done with these types of relationships:

• Dedicated developers (Team extension, Fixed team). The client just "rents" a developers/team full-time or part-time for a long period of time. Good for big projects. Good for both.
• Fixed price. The price for the whole project was negotiated upfront, usually, counted by estimated man-hours required to get it done. The client pays by milestones (parts of the project was done). Good for small projects (<600 hours, but depends on estimator's expertise). Good for both too, but quite risky for developers as things may go very wrong. They may go better as well.
• Time&Material. The client pays for done work, usually calculated by man-hours. Good for support or ongoing projects with tight budgets. The worst: hard to manage employee load, the clients sometimes unhappy with hours that took for the task (maybe cause they had a tight budget in the first place...).

So everything boils down to man-hours in one way or another. Of course, different people involved in a project have different hour-rates, but that doesn't change the picture.
Also, developers usually strictly do what the client says, so no value added here.

I'm very interested in what other people think about this.

You are describing what made me sick about "Type 2 projects companies".

Hours is a terrible metric for building a project, for many reasons:

• It's NEVER accurate.
• It doesn't match up with value added (watch the video GuitarManDan shared), which is both bad for the client and for the company. This leads to so many problems that is just too large to enumerate here.

Dedicated developers is a sustainable one as long as you charge a daily rate (I give you 3 devs for 6 months and you'll pay $xxx per day). There's very little that can go wrong here, and I've seen this implemented successfully. It only scales linearly, but it scales and there is little risk involved (specially when you reach a certain size).

Fixed price is, to me, a bad business model unless you base it on value (and can find clients who pay for that value). I've worked in both sh*t and great companies, with sh*t developers and some of the developers you can find in the industry, and it ALWAYS went south. I think fixed price is good for projects that don't have much complexity but add a lot of value to clients (like static websites that lead to more sales); otherwise, they are a massive red flag with lights screaming for problems, and are very difficult to get right, apart from being much more expensive for the company that builds them. Is a Type 2 project that takes you xxx% effort/time compared to a simpler solution going to deliver to both you and the client the same xxx% value in return? If so, good; if not, there are better business opportunities. Again, I'm interested in seeing others' opinions.

Also, if developers do strictly what the clients say, why do those clients hire experts in the first place? Something is wrong there, either the experts are not that experts (and don't provide value, or can't make the clients recognise this value), or the client should have an in-house team instead (which is still wrong, as a software development team should help the business, not just do as they are told, but this is a different discussion).

 

[astr0]

You are describing what made me sick about "Type 2 projects companies".

Hours is a terrible metric for building a project, for many reasons:

• It's NEVER accurate.
• It doesn't match up with value added (watch the video GuitarManDan shared), which is both bad for the client and for the company. This leads to so many problems that is just too large to enumerate here.

Dedicated developers is a sustainable one as long as you charge a daily rate (I give you 3 devs for 6 months and you'll pay $xxx per day). There's very little that can go wrong here, and I've seen this implemented successfully. It only scales linearly, but it scales and there is little risk involved (specially when you reach a certain size).

Fixed price is, to me, a bad business model unless you base it on value (and can find clients who pay for that value). I've worked in both sh*t and great companies, with sh*t developers and some of the developers you can find in the industry, and it ALWAYS went south. I think fixed price is good for projects that don't have much complexity but add a lot of value to clients (like static websites that lead to more sales); otherwise, they are a massive red flag with lights screaming for problems, and are very difficult to get right, apart from being much more expensive for the company that builds them. Is a Type 2 project that takes you xxx% effort/time compared to a simpler solution going to deliver to both you and the client the same xxx% value in return? If so, good; if not, there are better business opportunities. Again, I'm interested in seeing others' opinions.

Yeah, dedicated developers are much easier to manage and better for sustainable business.

I didn't have a lot of bad experience with fixed-price type projects. They were quite small with not too much that can go wrong and those parts were estimated accordingly (average between smooth and completely wrong). Still had a project that took ~180 hours instead of ~120 estimated and a single task that took 40 instead of 4 (and that was one line of code bug fix in an open source project lol). There was also quite the opposite sometimes, like a project done in ~60 hours that was estimated 200+.

We thought of focusing on the team-as-service model. So dedicated developers that the client needs to complete/support his project. But prospects that can afford this are quite big businesses/funded startups with long-term projects. Those are even harder to find and usually requires a small fixed-price project to evaluate our team.

Also, if developers do strictly what the clients say, why do those clients hire experts in the first place?

I mean that they don't take a big part in the client's decision making. The clients decide what? and why? the developers how?.
Example tasks from the client:

• Add those fields there, here are the formulas.
• Integrate XXX feed for news
• Make a window that would do XX

And the developers sometimes don't even know why would a client want that and what value that would add to him or his users. So there's an opportunity of adding more value here too, but that would require some expertise in the client's business/domain.