Lex DeVille's: Guru Cults Exposed: The Tactics "Experts" Use To Pull You In & Suck You Dry

[MJ DeMarco]

"EPIC" ?

That could work!

 

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[luniac]

This is what would happen to me if i fell for the webinar.

THEM - Great! So, to change your life, and get your business back on track, and to make sure your family is fed, clothed, and can start living a better life, and to put you on track toward your first 6 or 7-figures...... it's just $10,000. Will that be Visa or Mastercard?

ME - Oh, uh, I didn't expect it to be so much.

THEM - *Silence*

ME - I don't think I can come up with that.

THEM - What do you think stops you right now?

ME - It's just a lot of money and I'm not making very much

THEM - That's exactly why you need our help, luniac.

ME - Yeah, but I just think I want to try it on my own first.

THEM - I understand luniac, but where has that gotten you so far?

ME - Good point...well, I need to talk to my family first.

THEM - I understand luniac, but does your family make these decisions for you?

ME- No...but I just don't know how I can pay.

THEM - A lot of our customers put their payment on credit. Which major credit cards do you use?

ME- I don't have a credit card.

THEM - That's allright, with good credit you'll be easily preapproved for a credit card, give me your credit score and i'll personally recommend you a solid credit card provider.

ME - I don't have credit or a credit score.

THEM - Silence

ME - Silence

THEM - Do have any friends, family who are able to assist you with this?

ME - No they're all broke as fuk like me

THEM - Silence

ME - Silence

THEM - k bye...

 

[Xeon]

THEM - k bye...

You: But I thought you guys wanna help me!

 

[papi016]

This is why I don't use LinkedIn, it's full of guru spam.

Is that really why you don’t use LinkedIn or just the BS you tell yourself?

 

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[TonyStark]

Is that really why you don’t use LinkedIn or just the BS you tell yourself?

It’s part of why I don’t use it.

 

[Andy Black]

Here's what @MJ DeMarco wrote back in 2014
(From here.)

I know that zen******* and various others highly recommend learning the skill of copywriting but I don't believe I've ever seen Mj mention it.

You don't see me mention it because I believe your product is more important. Nonetheless, copywriting and the ability to sell is very important, and ranks up there as one of the #1 skills you need to have, and know.

Ultimately, you can have the best product in the world, but if you can't sell it, you will have problems.

Hypothetically imagine for a moment that you had the cure to cancer. Ultimately, you would need to sell the solution. You would need to know how to market. Sell. Convince. Persuade. After the initial momentum builds of sales, the product will do the rest through word of mouth, social media, referrals, and recommendations. Copywriting, marketing, and sales accelerates the momentum. To put it analogous, your product should be the FIRE, your marketing the GAS.

Unfortunately I see copywriting being used to PUSH bad products. Mediocre products. Shitty products. The MARKETING actually becomes the fire, and the product, well, it's just a piece of paper that evaporates once the marketing fire is extinguished. With this type of business model, you're really not dabbling in Fastlanes, but run-of-the-mill internet marketing.

The FASTLANE is not about a PUSH (awesome copy pushing bad products) but a PULL -- creating great products that people want, share, and recommend. And of course, reorder (if you have a product like that.) Marketing/copy should be a tool, not the means to the end.

Most people here want passive income. They mention "printing money" and copywriting as a key to that machine. I'm sorry but I don't want to be "printing money" if my product sucks and I don't believe in it, and yet, I have millions in sales (with a ZERO reorder rate) because my copy is pervasive and borderline deception. That to me isn't Fastlane or entrepreneurship, that just makes you just another money-chasing internet marketer trying to "out push" the other guy down the street.

The IM (internet marketing) industry is RIFE with PUSH marketers. They're fluent in copy, but bankrupt in product. Once they stop advertising and marketing, they cease to exist. Is that printing money? No, you're just a f*cking pusher of commodities.

If you want passive income, I'd be more focused on creating a great product that people want and demand, a product that people will buy not just once because of clever copy, but forever. I mentioned in my INSIDERS call that I've spent less than $3,000 marketing TMF , of which, none of it was effective. (FB rejects all of my ads). TMF has sold over $1,000,000. It will probably add millions to my net worth. Marketing? Copy? No, product. And yes, passive income that has come month after month, year after year.

So to answer your question, YES, copy and sales is important. Is copywriting the end-all-be all for Fastlane? No, believe it or not. If you think it is, you'd probably be better served at the Warrior Forum where those guys sell the same stuff, over and over--- the only thing different between the recycled, rehashed products is the copy that convinced you to buy.

Bottomline, if you have a great product and are also a great salesman, you'll make a fortune AND sleep well. If you have a shitty product and are also a great salesman, well, a big bank account doesn't buy my soul, or my integrity. Maybe your soul can be bribed, mine cannot.

If I had an extra hour a day to learn something, would you suggest learning to write copy?

It depends on what step you are in the process of building and growing a company. Knowing sales, copy, and effective persuasive writing will NEVER hurt you.

As an entrepreneur, you will always be selling to these stakeholders:

-- Potential customers
-- Existing customers who aren't happy
-- Potential investors
-- Potential employees
-- Potential suppliers
-- Potential acquirers

At the end of the day, you will be selling your entire entrepreneurial career in some fashion.

So by all means, learn to sell and communicate effectively.

 

[mguerra]

1) the others ressources are anything that raises you above the crowd

if you have more skills, more knowledge, more will, more whatever then you can become a guru


to teach something in this guru business, you don't have to own a PHD

you just have to know a little more than your customers



let's be precise again with a case study :

David Angelo is well known for his dating products


View attachment 18291


but he is not a seducer at all !

his real name is Eben Pagan, a famous businessman, not a seducer !!


do you think David Angelo / Eben Pagan is really a seducer ?


View attachment 18292



NO !!

he is just a smart businessman who just figured out how to make money by reading books and doing an info product business with this knowledge !!!


here is the real " seducer " we are talking about :

View attachment 18293

his real skill is making money, not seducing girls

---> so, he is a false dating guru but a real business man


by the way his get altitude symbol is an esoteric symbol which really means that awareness ( enlightened people) will use people's energy to get what it wants

View attachment 18294



2) yes


you can't be protected from manipulative intents unless you 've got knowledge in this area


let's think about this saying:

" the truth shall set you free "



View attachment 18295




.

Hey brother, I've become interested in learning more about Eben Pagan because I've already knew him as David Angelo and always felt something about him that I couldn't explain. It's like: this guy is/see something beyond what he shows on stage.

I googled his Get Altitude reviews and concluded it was a scam. At least at the pricing. He's a smart agressive value positioning guru.

I saw by your posts that you've studied this guy a bit. Can you share what you've learned from him and expose your view about him? Does he delivery real value?

Ps: I got quite interested in the "people are not logical when buying" - where can I read more about it?

Thanks in advance, brother. Peace.

 

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[dgr]

Ps: I got quite interested in the "people are not logical when buying" - where can I read more about it?

I can answer this last one. There's plenty of sources that can help you with that.

Two that come to my mind right now:

- Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely (the title itself gives you a great clue about what you can find inside )

- Cashvertising, by D. E. Whitman (maybe the book most mentioned by @SinisterLex when he recommends a book about copywriting)

On Even Pagan... the videos I've watched from him are usually good. But I'm not sure if it's worth the price. Btw, I discovered a couple of months ago that he was David DeAngelo and was like a "whaaaaaaaat!?" moment

 

[GMSI7D]

Hey brother, I've become interested in learning more about Eben Pagan because I've already knew him as David Angelo and always felt something about him that I couldn't explain. It's like: this guy is/see something beyond what he shows on stage.

I googled his Get Altitude reviews and concluded it was a scam. At least at the pricing. He's a smart agressive value positioning guru.

I saw by your posts that you've studied this guy a bit. Can you share what you've learned from him and expose your view about him? Does he delivery real value?

Ps: I got quite interested in the "people are not logical when buying" - where can I read more about it?

Thanks in advance, brother. Peace.

either you are eben Pagan or a guy in his team

why ?

because nobody cares about him here

nobody cares about his INTJ philosophy that only guys like me are interested in

you come from nowhere to get more informations on the guy

this is weird and against the odds....



anyway,

Eben Pagan , Jay Abraham and so on : all these guys are INTJ Mastermind









only guys like them can really understand their philosophy

---> i have learned a lot because i am wired like them

Eben learned from Jay and i learned from both guys



what is at the core of this marketing philosophy ?


---> everything is a test

well said in the 36 chinese stratagem:

"Stomp the grass to scare the snake"

"Do something unaimed, but spectacular ("hitting the grass") to provoke a response of the enemy ("startle the snake"), thereby giving away his plans or position, or just taunt him. "



----> the real value he provides is his INTJ philosophy, how he manages his money making systems


if you are smart enough to understand how he thinks then you can copy his attitude and the sky is the limit

this is the real value here, not his programs than anybody can teach

the real value is how these gurus think to get what they want

--> so use , borrow their thinking and you will reach the same level of success in any area of your life

 

[dgr]

the real value he provides is his INTJ philosophy, how he manages his money making systems

I can't agree more with this.

Since I discovered my type, every time I find a course, book, strategy, etc. I ask myself "ok, is this method/strategy/principle aligned with my strengths, values, etc.?"

Usually, it's not. So I leave it for other people.

When I follow it anyway, I hit the wall very quickly, or struggle to stick with it.

 

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[mguerra]

either you are eben Pagan or a guy in his team

why ?

because nobody cares about him here

nobody cares about his INTJ philosophy that only guys like me are interested in

you come from nowhere to get more informations on the guy

this is weird and against the odds....



anyway,

Eben Pagan , Jay Abraham and so on : all these guys are INTJ Mastermind

View attachment 18311



View attachment 18312



only guys like them can really understand their philosophy

---> i have learned a lot because i am wired like them

Eben learned from Jay and i learned from both guys



what is at the core of this marketing philosophy ?


---> everything is a test

well said in the 36 chinese stratagem:

"Stomp the grass to scare the snake"

"Do something unaimed, but spectacular ("hitting the grass") to provoke a response of the enemy ("startle the snake"), thereby giving away his plans or position, or just taunt him. "



----> the real value he provides is his INTJ philosophy, how he manages his money making systems


if you are smart enough to understand how he thinks then you can copy his attitude and the sky is the limit

this is the real value here, not his programs than anybody can teach

the real value is how these gurus think to get what they want

--> so use , borrow their thinking and you will reach the same level of success in any area of your life

No, I'm not Eben nor anybody of his team. I'm just a guy who is really interested in psychology and likes to learn everything he can in order to succeed in business.

I've a deep understanding on NLP and lately I've become more interested in the psychology of the buyer. That was the main subject of my question.

As to nobody caring about Eben or INTJ psychology: I'm not Introvert at all, but this guy really makes me learn more about him, how he thinks and where he gets his information from. He's clearly above the crowd and that's why I asked about his programs - does he share this high order vision in his materials?

So, to reframe my question: how does Eben manage his money systems? How does he and others INTJ's think to get what he wants?

I'm glad to contribute and engage on this topic so we can have a really valuable conversation.
Thanks in advance

 

[mguerra]

I can answer this last one. There's plenty of sources that can help you with that.

Two that come to my mind right now:

- Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely (the title itself gives you a great clue about what you can find inside )

- Cashvertising, by D. E. Whitman (maybe the book most mentioned by @SinisterLex when he recommends a book about copywriting)

On Even Pagan... the videos I've watched from him are usually good. But I'm not sure if it's worth the price. Btw, I discovered a couple of months ago that he was David DeAngelo and was like a "whaaaaaaaat!?" moment

Thanks for the recommendations brother. I've already read Ca$h and now Predictably Irrational is on my reading list.

As to Even Pagan I had the same reaction when I discovered. The mfer created a whole new identity to launch another business. It just proves how a smart fella he is.

As the saying goes: perception is reality.

 

[p0stscript]

This is what would happen to me if i fell for the webinar.

THEM - Great! So, to change your life, and get your business back on track, and to make sure your family is fed, clothed, and can start living a better life, and to put you on track toward your first 6 or 7-figures...... it's just $10,000. Will that be Visa or Mastercard?

ME - Oh, uh, I didn't expect it to be so much.

THEM - *Silence*

ME - I don't think I can come up with that.

THEM - What do you think stops you right now?

ME - It's just a lot of money and I'm not making very much

THEM - That's exactly why you need our help, luniac.

ME - Yeah, but I just think I want to try it on my own first.

THEM - I understand luniac, but where has that gotten you so far?

ME - Good point...well, I need to talk to my family first.

THEM - I understand luniac, but does your family make these decisions for you?

ME- No...but I just don't know how I can pay.

THEM - A lot of our customers put their payment on credit. Which major credit cards do you use?

ME- I don't have a credit card.

THEM - That's allright, with good credit you'll be easily preapproved for a credit card, give me your credit score and i'll personally recommend you a solid credit card provider.

ME - I don't have credit or a credit score.

THEM - Silence

ME - Silence

THEM - Do have any friends, family who are able to assist you with this?

ME - No they're all broke as fuk like me

THEM - Silence

ME - Silence

THEM - k bye...

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at this since I've been there, and for a quarter of the amount you use in your example.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

perception is reality.

Almost, but perception without agreement from others just makes psychos.

You can perceive a table as an octopus. To the rest of the world, it's still a table.

You can perceive yourself as someone of great power, or influence, or helpfulness.

If a majority of others disagree, then you're not any of those things, just a delusional fool.

We've seen this recently on the forum.

 

[dgr]

This is called agitating your pain points.

I remember how a fellow coach who was working for a Tier 2 guru defended the use of this tactic.

She said (as she learnt from the guru herself) that if you don't agitate their pain points and if you actually help them on the first call, you are not helping them at all. Because doing so you're alleviating their pain. So they don't take action.

If they feel more their paint, however, they're going to actually do something. Work with you. Solve their problem.

It's not that you want their money. You want their problem solved. You want they taking action.

The fact that you're going to make a lot of cash with their process is just circumstantial.

 

[Vermilion]

What about courses on Udemy that have similar titles like webinars or any other education-type website. Can they be trusted ?

 

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[Sheps]

What about courses on Udemy that have similar titles like webinars or any other education-type website. Can they be trusted ?

This gets to a problem this thread has revealed.

With so many gurus and so much fluff, how are do we find the diamonds in the rough?

Maybe another thread where you more experienced guys can recommend the products/courses/whatever that are actually worth the money?

Regardless this has been a masterclass in psychology, marketing, sales, deception. I would bet there is more actual info here than a +80% of undergrad degrees in related fields.

Especially nice for me as I recently fell into the facebook group trap. Whole thing has ruined my facebook feed (it wasn't exactly great before). Although now I have something to add.

Imo the reason FB does so well as a source of guru waffle is the notification system. Since joining all these groups my notifications have blown up, without even noticing I have/had become almost addicted to that dopamine hit. Felt like a hot chick on instagram for a bit, until I realised how hollow they all were. Nothing of any value said and worse it wasn't about me!

 

[ApparentHorizon]

This gets to a problem this thread has revealed.

With so many gurus and so much fluff, how are do we find the diamonds in the rough?

Maybe another thread where you more experienced guys can recommend the products/courses/whatever that are actually worth the money?

Regardless this has been a masterclass in psychology, marketing, sales, deception. I would bet there is more actual info here than a +80% of undergrad degrees in related fields.

Especially nice for me as I recently fell into the facebook group trap. Whole thing has ruined my facebook feed (it wasn't exactly great before). Although now I have something to add.

Imo the reason FB does so well as a source of guru waffle is the notification system. Since joining all these groups my notifications have blown up, without even noticing I have/had become almost addicted to that dopamine hit. Felt like a hot chick on instagram for a bit, until I realised how hollow they all were. Nothing of any value said and worse it wasn't about me!

If you've read MJs first book, he explains how you invest in your own education first. More precisely, the topic that's preventing you from getting to the next level.

In the past year I've gone on a dozen or so courses, and all were directly related to the path I laid out for myself. But before that I learned as much as I could on my own. Books, blogs, podcasts, you name it...

Out of those courses, 2 were directly responsible for finding solutions to my problems. The other 10 had a few golden nuggets I incorporated into my overall strategy. However, they all had similar marketing: Conquer the world overnight with XYZ proven system. Even a "bad" course, you can still pick something up.

You can even find tactics just observing how people operate. Think you can't learn anything from Tai Lopez? Watch how he boosts his social media followers by doing giveaways on each platform. "To be entered in the giveaway, like us on FB, follow on TWTR and INSTA."

Or say for example, your next target is cold calling. Well, which part? If you Google around, you'll find the structure of a call. You develop your own system, test it, and find where you fall short. Having trouble closing? Take a course on closing. Versus...a general course telling you to imagine a successful sale.

Search the forum for recommended courses. There was a thread recently posted about it.

 

[Rockford]

Even a "bad" course, you can still pick something up.

Agreed. I also think there is a time and place for seminars that are generally more motivational/inspirational than strategic/tactical.

The questions in my mind are:

• What is the content creator promising to deliver?
• Are they completely transparent about what's included within the content (i.e., is it meant to be rah-rah motivation only or am I meant to have a new skill upon completion)?
• Do they have a reputation for delivering (or over-delivering) on those promises?

As with anything, it's no the cost that matters so much as the value perceived and received.

 

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[Maxboost]

Quick question for the forum, who is a legit "guru", someone who provides real value? How can you determine who's advice to follow? Should we throw out all of personal development out the window?

 

[csalvato]

Quick question for the forum, who is a legit "guru", someone who provides real value? How can you determine who's advice to follow? Should we throw out all of personal development out the window?

IMHO proven track record doing what you intend to do or helping others do what you intend to do.

 

[The EL Maven]

let's take a look at Marshall Sylver. the guy calls himself " the millionaire maker "

View attachment 18272



but what he does is just entertaining people. he doesn't teach how to make millions


this is just a giant show with NLP techniques.



here is what NLP has done for him :


this

View attachment 18273


this :

View attachment 18274


that


View attachment 18275



don't you want to have this lifestyle ?



watch this video . what is the tactic used ?

---> make you feel like a king . you are special. you are part of the elite

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcUQ3acF8GY

I've been reading through this gem of a thread the past few days. Thank you @SinisterLex.

A good decade and a half ago, I had my own information product for sale. I came up with most of the ideas myself, wrote all of it myself, and did very little marketing. I got a lot of positive emails from people about it. I even had a competitor buy one from me and then email to tell me that he was impressed.

Well, one day, Marshall Sylver went on a radio show with a very large audience and apparently told the audience he was working on a program along the sames lines as what I had (and a few others) had already done. No biggie. A friend of mine told me about it and we agreed to get the course. After a few emails reassuring the buying public, it became obvious that he hadn't even started developing the course and needed time to do so!

A few months go by and he finally delivers the product.

I listened intently to get Sylver's take on a genre I had an interest in.

As I listened, I was literally completing his sentences.

He stole the entire thing, WORD FOR WORD, from small time guys and a bit here or there from me. He basically went and bought up cheap stuff and didn't bother even putting it in different words.

At that moment, the sham was exposed.

When I later was playing hard core poker, I found myself going from McCarran to the strip and saw one of his billboards. All I could do was laugh to myself. Fake Vegas, a perfect place to be a phony.

The dude is a joke.

Sorry if I'm judgmental. But a lot of these guys are as fake as a counterfeit bill.

That's why this thread is so good.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

Quick question for the forum, who is a legit "guru", someone who provides real value? How can you determine who's advice to follow? Should we throw out all of personal development out the window?

Start by figuring out what you need help with. What problem are you trying to solve in your business?

• Do you need help with mindset?
• Do you need help with copywriting?
• Do you need help with branding?
• Do you need help with funnels?
• Do you need help with ads?
• Do you need help with publicity?
• Do you need help with sales calls?

Then use Google to see who pops up when you search for the specific thing you need help with. Join their Facebook group and scroll through the history of posts to see what other users say.

Look for posts where people had a positive response. Not just any positive response, but a positive response that specifically describes how the course or program changed their lives.

For instance, if the course is a sales course, do group members say the course was "really helpful" or do they say, "I experienced a 50% increase in close rates and earned over $30,000 in November."

You need to know that the program you're considering has helped other people in the way you want it to help you. If everyone just says, "it was great" or "it was useful" or "the material was so informative" then it's a bunch of vague bullcrap, and there probably wasn't much substance to the program.

People often give vague testimonials when programs don't quite live up to expectations. They feel bad about outing the guru and also feel like it was probably their own fault they didn't get results. So they just leave a vaguely positive testimonial (conforming with group norms) and get back to life.

This is a destructive cult tactic...initiating feelings of guilt has kept many cult members from speaking the truth about their experience because they don't want to socially isolate themselves.

Referrals can be a good source of quality recommendations (assuming the referrer has been through the program and actually got something from it).

 

[LeoistheSun]

mindset

copywriting

branding

funnels

ads

publicity

sales calls

I need help with all that. Guess I'm a prime target

 

[GMSI7D]

we have to be clear here because a lot of people don't understand yet what the big picture is

so i made 2 pictures for you

yes i know i am a fantastic drawer





the key word in this world is ENERGY

animals are looking for energy when they hunt

humans are looking for energy when they work

but at a superior level, normal human being are themselves a source of energy for enlightened people


the energy here is money , not food or minerals or electricity


your money ,wich is symbol for the work you have done







the energy that awareness is looking for is your energy, your money


you are the engine ( money-energy making system) for awareness


1) animals hunt

2) people work

3) awareness uses people

 

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[dgr]

:sh*t: I need help with all that. Guess I'm a prime target

LOL!

I usually feel the same, so I can tell you why (probably) is that:

You are not focusing in one of those areas long enough or intensively enough to gain the expertise you need.

All of those topics have no end if you want to be on the edge of them. But for sure you don't need to reach that level, so don't compare you with any other expert in the field.

IMHO proven track record doing what you intend to do or helping others do what you intend to do.

Imo it's more important the part of "helping others" than the part of doing it himself. Some people have a natural ability to do something and are unable to explain why or how it works. Only the ones that have struggled with it and even so accomplished success can have some clues to help you.

(That's why most gurus use the hero's journey in their sales letter: "I was the worst case of this in the past... blablabla)

 

[mguerra]

I've read and re-read this thread and I'm astonished of how much value was dropped here by our friend @SinisterLex

The knowledge you laid out here is pure gold and you deserve real standing applauses, brother. Speed+

 

[Victoria Machado]

This post makes me feel really gullible lol
I've been thinking about getting into digital publishing and been following Anik Signal. He seems to teach how to share value for free through landing pages and then building rapport by getting their e-mail and auto sending messages that can eventually lead them to buy a consulting/coaching service. Would you consider him credible?
Really looking forward to your response, thank you in advance!

 

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[Kirsty Pollock]

I am hooked on this whole series! Thank you Lex!

I have bought courses from webinars - and mostly good value (not finished them yet!), but I'm a bit more cautious now, which helped me avoid getting into a 16k investing thing after email-video-free live weekend sequence. I was really put off by the coaching sales call tactics - encouraging people to borrow money - and by things I noted during the weekend seminar. Definitely cultish!

Now, my filter is "how does (or recently did) this person make the majority of their income?" If it's not what they are teaching, then I'm not interested. E.g. an online music / merch sales course where the lady shows in the free (and useful content full) FB group exactly how much she made this month. (Of course you have to trust this ... totally another question). Or @Fox

I have long disliked the "coaches coaching people to be coaches" infinite loop - somebody has to DO actual work somewhere at some point, and that is what's worth learning how to do.

Anyway, thanks again for this, Lex, and I'll keep reading!

 

[p0stscript]

I have long disliked the "coaches coaching people to be coaches" infinite loop - somebody has to DO actual work somewhere at some point, and that is what's worth learning how to do.

Seems like the ultimate pyramid scheme, fortunately for those at the top there will always be sufficient cash cows on the sidewalk. Unfortunately for those at the bottom saturation point will have been reached. But never mind the next big thing will just be round the corner.