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Lex DeVille's: Guru Cults Exposed: The Tactics "Experts" Use To Pull You In & Suck You Dry

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Lex, do u recommend that for those of us selling products via e-commerce, use the concepts behind this sort of sales method? I'm reading this book called Cashvertising and it seems to use a similar type of copywriting to these guru cults (but not as extreme it seems).

I must say I find it eerie and disturbing how these guru cults can manipulate the human mind to such a deep level. It's pure genius.

Nowadays I just scroll past these sort of ads on FB but judging by the amt of comments and likes, they seem very popular.
 
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Let's Talk Guru Funnels Stage 1 - The Ad
Common Guru Funnel Variations

V1.
Ad > Landing Page > Email Series > Webinar > Application > Call > Sale
V2. Ad > Landing Page > Webinar > Application > Call > Sale
V3. Ad > Landing Page > Webinar > Sales Page > Sale

There are versions that don't start with an ad, but you won't see those as often. The Tier 1 (marketing) Gurus, such as Russ Ruffino, teach their students to get to the sale as fast as possible. That starts with ads. More specifically, almost always Facebook ads.

The Facebook Ad sits in the Attention stage of the AIDA model.

It's placed directly in your line of site as you scroll. Sometimes it's short, like this Tony Robbins ad.

Screen-Shot-2018-02-23-at-2.59.26-AM.png

Or long like our Selena Soo ad from yesterday.

Gurus use whatever their guru says works. So you'll end up seeing a lot of variations since Tier 1 gurus trickle down their marketing results from the top. Whether the ad is short or long isn't important. What's important are the words you read as you're scrolling by.

If you're seeing guru ads on Facebook, it's because:

A) You fit the guru's target demographic for an ideal client
(you're a juicy antelope being stalked by Simba)

B) You visited a guru site, clicked a link, or liked a guru post etc.
(now you're a juicy antelope with a broken leg)

In either case you're being targeted and that puts you at a major disadvantage. It's the same thing that makes an assassin lethal. The victim isn't looking for a hitman. Meanwhile, there's a man on a building a mile away with sights on your head. He watches your behavior and gets to know you better than you know yourself. That way he can strike when you've dropped your guard.

When you fit a guru's ideal client profile, it's not hard for them to say what you want to read. All they have to do is find people just like you and get to know them well. They spend time getting to know their problems. They learn how those people describe the problem in their own words. Then they use those exact same words in all of their communications with you.

Let's revisit the Tony Robbins ad from above...

Screen-Shot-2018-02-23-at-2.59.26-AM.png

"Failing to plan means planning to fail" - This is an agreement statement. You won't disagree with this. Remember, you're being targeted. This is likely something you've said to yourself in your head. Maybe you even said it out loud or online to someone else. Since you agree, it probably grabs your attention which is enough to get you to continue the first line.

"Do you really have a business - or just a job you're calling a business" - Here is where the loop opens in your mind. This is another statement you say to yourself, especially if you're someone struggling in business. I see a similar question like this about freelancing all the time:

"Is freelancing really a business or is it just a job I'm calling a business?"

There's a good chance that's why Tony's ads target me. I'm a freelancer and I ask freelancer questions. So all Tony's ads have to do is say what I'm already thinking. Suddenly it's like he knows me and that hits home.

The thing is, I don't have an answer for the question. If I did, I wouldn't ask it. Since I don't have an answer, and since Tony posed the question, I automatically assume Tony might have the answer and therefore I keep reading.

That's why the very next sentence goes straight into a possible solution.

"Discover the essential strategies..." - This is a command that continues to hint at a solution, but doesn't close the loop. The loop can only be closed when you have the actual answer. Otherwise it remains open, plaguing your thoughts. But now you not only have the open loop of your own troubling question, but also the open loop of a possible solution that hasn't been revealed but easily could be...if only you sign up for that free webinar.

Isn't it crazy how all that psychology goes into a simple 5 line Facebook ad?

By the way, some ads use videos. Some don't. Tony's usually do. The videos are similar to the copywriting in what they say. They just say more of the key words and phrases you want to read. Then they hint at a solution inside. Make sense?

Now let's go deeper with a longer ad.

Selena-Soo-Story-Ad.png

It's back to the Selena Soo ad. This ad looks more like a Tier 2 or 3 guru ad. The first line opens with something her target audience is already thinking about.

"When I first started my business" - This isn't about her business. It's targeting YOU by letting YOU know that this is a story about the starting phase of a business which happens to be where YOU are if you're seeing this ad.

"I was afraid of coming across as" - 1 loop opens here. It happens REALLY FAST. It opens at the cliffhanger "as" and you don't think twice about dropping to the next line to find out what she was afraid of coming across as. You just read it.

"arrogant" - The loop closes here, but another one opens because now you have to know why she felt that way. This word specifically targets how her audience feels. It could've been any other word.

- "An a**hole"
- "A fake"
- "A fraud"
- "Intrusive"


Whatever word fits the audience. Whatever word the target uses to describe themselves. Those exact words and phrases identify the target's limiting beliefs. These are stuck points that we want to solve but don't know how. When someone mentions them, they get our attention.

Okay...

That's pretty f*cking deep...

But now I'll show you something that will blow your mind...

The rest of Selena's ad is a story.

Harmless.

Right?

No.

This isn't just any story.

This story applies a therapeutic metaphor technique
to bypass any reservations you currently have.

You may not know this, but people understand things through other things. If I just say you're being targeted by gurus, that doesn't describe the severity of the situation. But if I call a guru an assassin and you the victim, or them a lion and you the antelope...that paints a clearer picture in your mind. You understand the comparison.

So here's how guru stories work.

POWERFUL THERAPEUTIC METAPHORS

A metaphor uses a story in which a character (in this case the guru) represents the situation you're currently in. They describe that situation very clearly. It seems the story isn't about you, it's about the character (but it's really about you).

Once the story begins, you read how the character has all of the exact problems you have. This causes you to identify with the character. Now the two of you are one as you continue this journey. This also triggers the psychological rule of "liking" because the character is like you.

But unlike you, the character's story ends differently, and this is where the magic happens. Up until this point, you had a bunch of open loops lingering in your mind. All the questions you don't have answers for. All the problems that have you stuck. The character has all those same problems, yet their outcome was different.

Why?

It was a simple realization they had...

"If I wanted a business that would REALLY help people, I HAD to put myself out there."

That's how therapeutic metaphors work. But what effect does it have on you? Remember, you've identified with the protagonist of the story. You have the same situation. Since everything was the same except that ONE REALIZATION, you assume the solution to your problem must therefore be the same.

In this case...

YOU MUST PUT YOURSELF OUT THERE if you want your business to succeed.

Not only does this suggest what you must do, it also PRIMES you for what's to come. Because now, if at any point in this funnel you have doubts, you'll remember the story. You'll remember how the character had to put herself out there before she got results. Then you'll apply that same thought process to your present situation.

Should I click this ad? = That would be putting myself out there, right? Yes.
Should I enroll in this webinar? = That would be putting myself out there, right? Yes.
Should I book a call? = That would be putting myself out there, right? Yes.
Should I take out a $5k loan? = That would be putting myself out there, right? Yes.

Should I go all-in with this $30,000 retreat = That would be putting myself out there, right? Yes.


There's a reason they're called therapeutic metaphors. It's because they're used by actual medical practitioners in therapy to create change. Unfortunately, these same techniques are also used by marketers and gurus. The marketers often know what they're doing (though it doesn't make them well intentioned). Tier 2 and Tier 3 gurus usually don't have a clue.

Anyway, all of this leads you to click their ad and that's step 1.

In the next post we'll cover some different guru landing pages and see how they draw you into their funnels at the next level. If you have any questions about the stuff we talked about today, post 'em down below.

:)

.

.

P.S.

Selena Soo's S3 program is pretty good. It taught me how to pitch media outlets like blogs, podcasts, magazines, and even local and national news outlets. But most who read her ad won't be able to tell the difference between her training and bullshit training based on theory instead of real-world results. That's why it's so important to Google the guru, and ask due diligence questions before moving forward in their funnels. Selena's ad could've been any of 1000 other gurus who would charge just as much for something worth a lot less.

By the way, when I said I'd tell you the answer about Selena's ad in the next post...and you read all the way down here today...you directly experienced how open loops work. Now the loop is closed, but it kind of makes you wonder...how many loops were opened before you reached this point? How many loops are opened every day that you don't pay any attention to until it's too late?

;)

Later
Lex, excellent write up. Powerful stuff. I’m looking forward to your next topic about landing pages.


Questions:

1. What process does the guru use to create a “client profile”? Are they using a software or collecting surveys?

2. What key words does a guru look for?

3. Is the AIDA formula the most effective?

4. What funnel version do you like best? Or does it depend on what’s being sold?
 

Lex DeVille

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Lex, do u recommend that for those of us selling products via e-commerce, use the concepts behind this sort of sales method? I'm reading this book called Cashvertising and it seems to use a similar type of copywriting to these guru cults (but not as extreme it seems).

I must say I find it eerie and disturbing how these guru cults can manipulate the human mind to such a deep level. It's pure genius.

Nowadays I just scroll past these sort of ads on FB but judging by the amt of comments and likes, they seem very popular.

Yes, and no. It depends on what you're selling and how you intend to sell it. The ecom brand I'm working now will focus heavy on storytelling and metaphors, but not for the same reasons a guru would. Also, I won't be drawing people into any webinars to sell my ecommerce products.

The techniques in Ca$hvertising are useful for selling ecom products, and they're used by virtually every guru on the planet. It's how they're applied that is slightly different, but there are a lot of similarities, such as the Lifeforce 8. The underlying psychology remains the same, but is applied differently based on the product and what the audience needs from it.

For instance, a lot of people read Ca$hvertising and a few other bits of copywriting and think they should center align their text on the website, and give people commands to "act now!" But often those techniques fall flat when it's not what the audience needs from the writing.

If I sell a "calming bath soap" my customers will want every word of what I write to be about calming, soothing, natural, refreshing, relaxing. If I use direct response tactics like center aligning my text (which isn't a calming and natural way to read) and buttons that say "Buy Now!" (which is in your face) it won't suddenly compel them to buy.

So this is a matter of applying the appropriate styles and techniques based on what the customer needs to make the decision to move forward.
 

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Thanks @SinisterLex for posting this. This thread has pushed me out of my forum hibernation... :)

I actually was subsribed to Selena's newsletter for a long time. I didn't buy her S2 Groupe program but I was tempted several times. For those who don't know, Selena started out as a student of Ramit Sethi from his Zero to Launch course (Another course, I was tempted several times to buy, but didn't). In my opinion both Ramit and Selena are legit. But like you said, value one gets is dependent on your own current level of progress.

I have actually worked as a Developer for another "Cult Guru" for two years making his website, creating those funnels etc. From my experience, I can tell people here ONE important point of difference between REAL gurus following whom can change your lives versus FAKE ones where you will just lose money.

It is the section in their sales landing page, which specifically lists the contents / modules of their course /membership.

Follow the below process.

1> Get to their Sales landing page. Ignore all the persuasion/ psychological speak and scroll down/find a section called "Modules in the course" or similarly titled. This should be a section in the sales page where they list what actually is contained in their course.
2> If the above is missing, it is a CERTAIN, 100% Proof that the course and the guru is B.S. His course will be vague, general talk points which will waste your money.
3> If there IS a section on the Sales page which lists the modules/contents of the course, pay VERY close attention to what it is. You have to ask two important questions here,

a> AM I getting anything tangible here?

For example, a course with an associated iPhone / Android App, which records your progress/actions IS TANGIBLE. A course with just 8 different "mindshifts" videos you have to see is NOT tangible.
Documents / Spreadsheets by themselves are not tangible. But documents in which your actions can be recorded / tracked or information contained in them is actionable (like exact steps which can save you days of time) are tangible.

b> What actions will I have to take during the modules/course/membership?

A Real Guru's sales page will identify or at least point you towards what exact steps you will have to take. Even if the course is just 8 videos, you should be able to understand what you have to do.

If you cannot understand what you have to do during the course before buying it, then the course is B.S.

IF you can understand the actions you will have to take, and understand that the course will NOT work if you don't take the said actions, then the course is probably legit.

This is the exact technique I use before deciding whether to buy something. I ignore almost the entire sales pitch and focus on above, what I also consider as technical information. Since I am a developer who has to work with many management type people, the above is basically the difference between someone who is just blowing out air versus someone who knows what they are talking about and can guide / teach you.

Thanks again @SinisterLex. Much appreciated for this thread.
 
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Lex DeVille

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Lex, excellent write up. Powerful stuff. I’m looking forward to your next topic about landing pages.


Questions:

1. What process does the guru use to create a “client profile”? Are they using a software or collecting surveys?

2. What key words does a guru look for?

3. Is the AIDA formula the most effective?

4. What funnel version do you like best? Or does it depend on what’s being sold?

Most gurus have a questionnaire with a bunch of client profile fields:

• Gender:
• Age:
• Location
• Marital Status:
• Children:
• Industry:
• Hobbies:
• Hangouts:

The one I use, and shared with my past students has a lot of fields. Basically think of any element that might give you some insight into how the customer thinks about the problem they have, what the underlying problem might be, and what needs to happen to get them to take action to try and solve it.

• What is the problem?
• What problems does that cause?
• How does my customer experience the problem?
• What happens as a result of having that problem?
• How does having that problem make them feel?
• What happens if they don't solve that problem?
• What words and phrases does my customer use to describe the problem?

etc.

To get this information gurus use surveys, polls, ask their Facebook groups, read emails from students or non-students, or even sit down with their prospects and simply ask them questions. A lot of the key words and phrases come from complaints. People complaining about life.

How a prospect might describe a problem in a Facebook Group post:
"I've tried to get coaching clients for a year, but I feel like I'm stuck in mud spinning my wheels."

How the guru capitalizes on that information in their marketing materials:
"Are you struggling to get coaching clients? Have you tried to get clients for a year or more? Does it feel like you're stuck in mud spinning your wheels? If any of this sounds like you, then read this..."

AIDA is pretty much used in any marketing situation. You won't have desire without interest and you won't have interest without their attention, and you can't get someone to take action who doesn't know you exist, isn't interested, and doesn't have any desire for it.

I like behavior-based funnels best. Bastian Ernst of Wild Audience has a great system for building behavior-based funnels, and he was the most recent guru who sold me a product.

 

MJ DeMarco

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Damn, this thread continues to deliver, can't upgrade it any further!

This story applies a therapeutic metaphor technique to bypass any reservations you currently have.

You may not know this, but people understand things through other things. If I just say you're being targeted by gurus, that doesn't describe the severity of the situation. But if I call a guru an assassin and you the victim, or them a lion and you the antelope...that paints a clearer picture in your mind. You understand the comparison.

Excellent. Part of this is being raw and "authentic" to the point of appearing vulnerable. We can't say that about a certain other individual who shall not be named. The vulnerability and conffession helps us identify with the guru, and when that happens, the hook has just got in your mouth.
 

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This is incredible stuff, where did you learn all of this Lex? Is there any books you can direct me to? Websites?
I have always considered myself to be a decent writer and thought about copywriting..
Never realized how powerful copywriting can be....
 
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For instance, a lot of people read Ca$hvertising and a few other bits of copywriting and think they should center align their text on the website, and give people commands to "act now!" But often those techniques fall flat when it's not what the audience needs from the writing.

If I sell a "calming bath soap" my customers will want every word of what I write to be about calming, soothing, natural, refreshing, relaxing. If I use direct response tactics like center aligning my text (which isn't a calming and natural way to read) and buttons that say "Buy Now!" (which is in your face) it won't suddenly compel them to buy.

So this is a matter of applying the appropriate styles and techniques based on what the customer needs to make the decision to move forward.
I feel like I learned more about copywriting in those 3 paragraphs than most books I've read.
 

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This is pretty much how webinars go. I can't wait to get into that topic after the landing pages. The marketers tell the Tier 2 gurus to do the webinar live until they create one that resonates with their audience. Then automate it and make it look live.

Most of the Tier 2 gurus follow this, but the Tier 3 gurus don't because they're afraid of being exposed if they go live. Instead, they just record a webinar and try to automate it without much testing. It ends up being a huge flop most of the time. But webinars that were tested and proven...those webinars work, and even when they're automated they get people to buy.

The reason gurus use Facebook is because it works.

I wouldn't say it's about the people who click not valuing their time, though. I also wouldn't say it's about separating the streetsmart from the gullible. Facebook simply gets you in front of people with really specific targeting. Google can work for this purpose too as long as the marketing communications are on point, but that's not what the Tier 1 gurus preach.

When you look at how cults recruit, they don't look for the gullible. They don't go after the mentally challenged. They target streetsmart, educated individuals because those people believe they won't be duped into a cult.

That actually makes them among the easiest to recruit and most likely to fall victim to a cult!


Funny thing is, once indoctrinated, those same individuals become the most valuable, dedicated cult contributors, especially once they've identified with the cult membership and group think takes over.

It's funny, because around a month ago, I decided to go through a marketing funnel as research. The promotion of this webinar was quite impressive and had been promoted by other marketers whose email lists I signed up to as research.

I knew I didn't want the product when I decided to enter the funnel. I just wanted to study the funnel. Marketing porn, I guess.

So eventually I begin watching their webinar. All along, I'm making mental notes, raising a wry smile whenever I noticed what they were up to.

There I was, sat watching this webinar as "the street smart, educated individual that knew I wouldn't be duped."

But time started to get on, and I had other stuff I needed to do. So I quit watching, right?

Nope. Subconsciously, there were open loops that needed answering.

Towards the end of the webinar, when the social proof was being added, the scarcity elements were being thrown in etc. Something f*cked up happened.

I noticed that my mind had wandered off and was figuring whether I could pay for this product.

That says it all. On a conscious level, I had no intention of purchasing this product. But they had hit enough psychological triggers that a deep part of me needed what they were offering.

It was an interesting learning experience. When I'm writing copy, I include these elements, but because I'm the crafting the message, it's hard to imagine how powerful they are. It's a kind of... produce what you've learned and trust the process kind of thing. But man, that was an eye opener.
 

Lex DeVille

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This is incredible stuff, where did you learn all of this Lex? Is there any books you can direct me to? Websites?
I have always considered myself to be a decent writer and thought about copywriting..
Never realized how powerful copywriting can be....

Ca$hvertising (the book) is still the best place learn the basics of copywriting.
 
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It's funny, because around a month ago, I decided to go through a marketing funnel as research. The promotion of this webinar was quite impressive and had been promoted by other marketers whose email lists I signed up to as research.

I knew I didn't want the product when I decided to enter the funnel. I just wanted to study the funnel. Marketing porn, I guess.

So eventually I begin watching their webinar. All along, I'm making mental notes, raising a wry smile whenever I noticed what they were up to.

There I was, sat watching this webinar as "the street smart, educated individual that knew I wouldn't be duped."

But time started to get on, and I had other stuff I needed to do. So I quit watching, right?

Nope. Subconsciously, there were open loops that needed answering.

Towards the end of the webinar, when the social proof was being added, the scarcity elements were being thrown in etc. Something f*cked up happened.

I noticed that my mind had wandered off and was figuring whether I could pay for this product.

That says it all. On a conscious level, I had no intention of purchasing this product. But they had hit enough psychological triggers that a deep part of me needed what they were offering.

It was an interesting learning experience. When I'm writing copy, I include these elements, but because I'm the crafting the message, it's hard to imagine how powerful they are. It's a kind of... produce what you've learned and trust the process kind of thing. But man, that was an eye opener.

Man, that's a powerful story. Thanks for sharing, rep+.
 

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It's funny, because around a month ago, I decided to go through a marketing funnel as research. The promotion of this webinar was quite impressive and had been promoted by other marketers whose email lists I signed up to as research.

I knew I didn't want the product when I decided to enter the funnel. I just wanted to study the funnel. Marketing porn, I guess.

So eventually I begin watching their webinar. All along, I'm making mental notes, raising a wry smile whenever I noticed what they were up to.

There I was, sat watching this webinar as "the street smart, educated individual that knew I wouldn't be duped."

But time started to get on, and I had other stuff I needed to do. So I quit watching, right?

Nope. Subconsciously, there were open loops that needed answering.

Towards the end of the webinar, when the social proof was being added, the scarcity elements were being thrown in etc. Something f*cked up happened.

I noticed that my mind had wandered off and was figuring whether I could pay for this product.

That says it all. On a conscious level, I had no intention of purchasing this product. But they had hit enough psychological triggers that a deep part of me needed what they were offering.

It was an interesting learning experience. When I'm writing copy, I include these elements, but because I'm the crafting the message, it's hard to imagine how powerful they are. It's a kind of... produce what you've learned and trust the process kind of thing. But man, that was an eye opener.

Amazing. So you knew going in what it was, but the techniques were so powerful that they broke down the barriers anyway. Frightening, really.
 

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It's funny, because around a month ago, I decided to go through a marketing funnel as research. The promotion of this webinar was quite impressive and had been promoted by other marketers whose email lists I signed up to as research.

I knew I didn't want the product when I decided to enter the funnel. I just wanted to study the funnel. Marketing porn, I guess.

So eventually I begin watching their webinar. All along, I'm making mental notes, raising a wry smile whenever I noticed what they were up to.

There I was, sat watching this webinar as "the street smart, educated individual that knew I wouldn't be duped."

But time started to get on, and I had other stuff I needed to do. So I quit watching, right?

Nope. Subconsciously, there were open loops that needed answering.

Towards the end of the webinar, when the social proof was being added, the scarcity elements were being thrown in etc. Something f*cked up happened.

I noticed that my mind had wandered off and was figuring whether I could pay for this product.

That says it all. On a conscious level, I had no intention of purchasing this product. But they had hit enough psychological triggers that a deep part of me needed what they were offering.

It was an interesting learning experience. When I'm writing copy, I include these elements, but because I'm the crafting the message, it's hard to imagine how powerful they are. It's a kind of... produce what you've learned and trust the process kind of thing. But man, that was an eye opener.

Exactly this. I think I have seen two really good promos. Both (in my opinion) are leagues above the average facebook guru ones. They both have a great story and idea.

One was on profiting from the retail destruction and taking advantage of that.

Another was about investing in foreign real estate from a billionaire confidant.

And they just rolled with it. They kept the story real and seemingly credible. They kept popping in open loops (the ideas I mentioned above were just the start).

I knew going in I was supposed to be objective, but they played me.

And the foreign real estate one... all I had to do to satisfy the open loops (THEY CREATED, MIND YOU) was to give them 19 bucks? About 19 bucks. Geeize.

E: I think the worst part is... I still think about their ads. I still think about the idea they pushed in front of me. In the future, all they have to do is snap their fingers and give me the cue and boom, my head explodes. I exaggerate a bit, but to me that's the power of copy. How many of you all were sold something in your life? Almost everything, even your values. It's easy to say the other person is brainwashed, it's hard to admit we all are to an extent (even if subconscious).
 
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Here's the real reason webinars are used and why they work so well.

What can you do if you click an ad for a course and are taken to a long form landing page with potent, expensive, split tested to perfection sales copy that will open loops to get you to read all the way till the end, meanwhile agitating your problem, preying on your desires, building trust and then making you desire their solution?

You can scroll through all of that expensive writing down to the bottom of the page where they supposedly close the loop, or just scroll to the bottom and see how much the course is, whats in it and click off the page.

Same with a high production, split tested to perfection video. You can just skip to the end.

In a webinar you have to hear every single word in the exact order the guru wants you to. He can open loops and get you to listen till the end meanwhile you are forced to sit through the entire sales pitch/manipulation, you can't skip to the end.

Tai Lopez actually talks about this in one of his courses.

As a side note, I wonder if this is why infomercial ads are still so good? You cant skip through on TV, you have to watch the whole thing to get to your tv show and close the loop that opened (writers are getting over the top with doing this, everyday people watching know its being done to them its so obvious but it still works).

Ok wow, I just realised, you can't skip through on youtube ads either, that is probably why Tai uses them and why they do so well.
 
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Here's the real reason webinars are used and why they work so well.

What can you do if you click an ad for a course and are taken to a long form landing page with potent, expensive, split tested to perfection sales copy that will open loops to get you to read all the way till the end, meanwhile agitating your problem, preying on your desires, building trust and then making you desire their solution?

You can scroll through all of that expensive writing down to the bottom of the page where they supposedly close the loop, or just scroll to the bottom and see how much the course is, whats in it and click off the page.

Same with a high production, split tested to perfection video. You can just skip to the end.

In a webinar you have to hear every single word in the exact order the guru wants you to. He can open loops and get you to listen till the end meanwhile you are forced to sit through the entire sales pitch/manipulation, you can't skip to the end.

Tai Lopez actually talks about this in one of his courses.

As a side note, I wonder if this is why infomercial ads are still so good? You cant skip through on TV, you have to watch the whole thing to get to your tv show and close the loop that opened (writers are getting over the top with doing this, everyday people watching know its being done to them its so obvious but it still works).

Ok wow, I just realised, you can't skip through on youtube ads either, that is probably why Tai uses them and why they do so well.

I personally think infomercials are genius. They pack a lot of benefits in 1 fell swoop with good rhythm/emotion (practical uses). All in ~2 minutes?

For some of these promo/webinars, people will still click x if they get bored. Some of these marketers realize this and so they have a transcript and put some sort of 'in a hurry' message. Some will email you back saying if you would like the transcript instead (talk about needy).

Long copy sells (you've read this in cashvertising; you read this here). But if people don't even get to the end then there's no chance for the click to action.
 

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@SinisterLex could you then at some point in this thread talk about the behavior-based funnels?

Behavior-based funnels are funnels designed to give a contact a more engaging experience. The actions (behaviors) they take during each phase of the funnel determines what happens next in the funnel. For instance if a contact clicks link A in email 3 then it might change the content of email 11 or 20 or whatever.

I probably won't go into it much here because it gets complicated fast. The person I mentioned before (Bastian) has a course that covers it step-by-step though. Most gurus don't use this system because it's complicated to set up and takes loads of time to finish.
 
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There's a "trick" in public speaking where you take a seemingly long pause, that allows people to catch up. And those people who weren't paying attention, suddenly snap back to the presenter.

Idk If I'm hallucinating, but in programming, for example, every dot and bracket has a purpose. And without it, the entire app could break. So I've noticed a few webinars where their flow is just as you described.

Except they have these random, events, let's call them. Where they'll spill their drink, or something breaks. And it's always in the middle of a loop.

Are they doing this to snap people back in, while at the same time not allowing them to process what they've been fed consciously?

Or are they all clumsy?
 
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But most who read her ad won't be able to tell the difference between her training and bullshit training based on theory instead of real-world results. That's why it's so important to Google the guru, and ask due diligence questions before moving forward in their funnels. Selena's ad could've been any of 1000 other gurus who would charge just as much for something worth a lot less.

About 11 or 12 years ago, I had a burgeoning online business.

When I looked around to see what was going on with peers and competitors, I kept running into these aggressive sales letters and the ugly web pages that all looked the same.

All used the same prefab testimonials. All had the red headlines and the highlighted writing and the same big yellow BUY NOW! button with the credit card logos and the "your credit card details are safe" padlock somewhere nearby.

2005-2007 was a different space on the web. Webinars weren't really a thing. Social media wasn't nearly as intrusive as it is now. But this thread shows that that nothing has changed in the essence of things.

The problem I had back then was exactly what you say in the last line: I felt like the only way to compete was to conform to the model.

My thought process was: what's the point of trying to stand apart if the medium I need to advertise myself makes me look no different from anyone else? It makes me look like a commodity.

I guess this stuff still works -- I know I'll still click on the links in the emails if they get the offer just right.

But the whole experience was enough to sour me on the idea of building a business online up until pretty recently.

A friend of mine has an email rule to delete any email that contains the word webinar.

I personally wouldn’t sit through one of those evergreen automated webinars that just happen to be starting in 20 minutes and will have the pause and fast forward controls disabled and start by wasting my time by saying how they won’t waste my time and show they’re a guru by saying how they’re not a guru and ...

I recently had to make myself a no webinars rule.

Every time I watch one, I always ask myself why. That's time I could have spent doing something valuable.

Unless you go into it knowing you want something specific out of it -- nothing wrong with researching a funnel -- I'm not convinced there's any reason to watch the things.
 

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@SinisterLex you mentioned Tier 1, 2 and 3 gurus in your posts. Could you elaborate on the tiers (eg in terms of how they work their charm, their competency level and actual value of their products/services)? Based on what I've read so far is it correct to say that Tier 1 gurus are the real thing, tier 2 gurus may or may not be the real thing (depend on their area of expertise), and tier 3 gurus are just starting out / pure BRO-marketers?

By the way have you come across any Tier 1 guru? I'm just curious to see how you view them and the way they do their marketing. Thanks!
 

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About 11 or 12 years ago, I had a burgeoning online business.

When I looked around to see what was going on with peers and competitors, I kept running into these aggressive sales letters and the ugly web pages that all looked the same.

All used the same prefab testimonials. All had the red headlines and the highlighted writing and the same big yellow BUY NOW! button with the credit card logos and the "your credit card details are safe" padlock somewhere nearby.

2005-2007 was a different space on the web. Webinars weren't really a thing. Social media wasn't nearly as intrusive as it is now. But this thread shows that that nothing has changed in the essence of things.

The problem I had back then was exactly what you say in the last line: I felt like the only way to compete was to conform to the model.

My thought process was: what's the point of trying to stand apart if the medium I need to advertise myself makes me look no different from anyone else? It makes me look like a commodity.

I guess this stuff still works -- I know I'll still click on the links in the emails if they get the offer just right.

But the whole experience was enough to sour me on the idea of building a business online up until pretty recently.



I recently had to make myself a no webinars rule.

Every time I watch one, I always ask myself why. That's time I could have spent doing something valuable.

Unless you go into it knowing you want something specific out of it -- nothing wrong with researching a funnel -- I'm not convinced there's any reason to watch the things.

You are right, there's absolutely NEVER a reason to watch through an entire webinar. In some cases, the sellers will give you material / sheets which they used during the webinar. Sometime you might want to download them. If you are absolutely new to a field, which is being upsold from the webinar, the whole webinar may be somewhat useful.

There's no doubt this marketing stuff works though. But the question is Should you do it?

If you want to start an online business yourself, you really have to ask yourself, what is your motivation? Do you want to do this ONLY because a $500 course x 20 paid subscribers per month = $10,000 / month. Is this ALL what you care about? If yes, well Go ahead and do it. But this reason ONLY may not work for everyone.

One person put this to me in a way which has stuck with me. If you want to start an online Business, consider your ideal customer. Consider his situation, his profile, his life, say it's Position A. Now consider the ideal/perfect state the customer wants to be in the field you want to teach. His life, his profile, his situation. Call that Position B.

Now ask yourself, can my course move the guy from Position A -> Position B?
Can I teach him with absolute integrity the methods, actions and tools to move from A to B?

If you answer Yes to both the above, you should ABSOLUTELY create the course. If not, if it's just maybe a little or maybe not, then you are really in it for ONLY yourself and will be FAKING.

Of course I am not saying there's anything wrong with having Money or your own benefit as your motivator. I am saying it shouldn't be at the expense of your customer's benefit.
 
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Would Neil Patel be classed as a Tier One guru?
 

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Great Thread.

I thought of Tai Lopez as as soon as I saw the title!


gurus are just using mass psychology used on TV and the medias. this is a proven model

they are not reinventing the wheel at all. anybody can do that with the right information

the medias are not meant to deliver good information that people can take to grow in their lives

the medias are meant to program people to follow the way of life that have been shaped in think tanks

gurus are just cult leaders on a niche level following proven methods used at the society level



i could start my own cult tomorow if i wanted to. this is very easy

because people are so programmed by society that you just have to follow the proven template that is applied on them .

just use the structures that have been put in place to shape their mind and actions


social.jpg
 

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@SinisterLex you mentioned Tier 1, 2 and 3 gurus in your posts. Could you elaborate on the tiers (eg in terms of how they work their charm, their competency level and actual value of their products/services)? Based on what I've read so far is it correct to say that Tier 1 gurus are the real thing, tier 2 gurus may or may not be the real thing (depend on their area of expertise), and tier 3 gurus are just starting out / pure BRO-marketers?

By the way have you come across any Tier 1 guru? I'm just curious to see how you view them and the way they do their marketing. Thanks
I’m guessing this other excellent thread of @SinisterLex is related:
 
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You are right, there's absolutely NEVER a reason to watch through an entire webinar. In some cases, the sellers will give you material / sheets which they used during the webinar. Sometime you might want to download them. If you are absolutely new to a field, which is being upsold from the webinar, the whole webinar may be somewhat useful.

There's no doubt this marketing stuff works though. But the question is Should you do it?

If you want to start an online business yourself, you really have to ask yourself, what is your motivation? Do you want to do this ONLY because a $500 course x 20 paid subscribers per month = $10,000 / month. Is this ALL what you care about? If yes, well Go ahead and do it. But this reason ONLY may not work for everyone.

One person put this to me in a way which has stuck with me. If you want to start an online Business, consider your ideal customer. Consider his situation, his profile, his life, say it's Position A. Now consider the ideal/perfect state the customer wants to be in the field you want to teach. His life, his profile, his situation. Call that Position B.

Now ask yourself, can my course move the guy from Position A -> Position B?
Can I teach him with absolute integrity the methods, actions and tools to move from A to B?

If you answer Yes to both the above, you should ABSOLUTELY create the course. If not, if it's just maybe a little or maybe not, then you are really in it for ONLY yourself and will be FAKING.

Of course I am not saying there's anything wrong with having Money or your own benefit as your motivator. I am saying it shouldn't be at the expense of your customer's benefit.
Nice litmus test. Rep+

The only reason I continue to dip my toe into these waters is because I believe I’m doing folks a disservice by not helping them more.

I won’t do a webinar though. Maybe not even an opt-in and all that auto responder stuff.

I like something Jerry Banfield said in one of his videos about closed business systems versus open business systems. He pumps out free videos on YouTube every single day. They add value. They’re free without an opt-in required.

If you like his content then you can subscribe to his YouTube channel , Facebook page etc.

In the description of the video will be a link to his courses. If you liked the free one then you can buy the paid one.

I don’t know whether he even has email lists and autoresponder series.

I’m tired of all the marketing automation where I get stupid long emails with stories in them that are designed to sell a click at the end and lead me further into their funnels.

I unsubscribe when the subject line is click-baity.

I unsubscribe even when the subject line is in Proper Case - my friends don’t email me in Proper Case.

I unsubscribe whenever I see a formula being followed.


This open business model appeals to me.

@Fox and @SinisterLex are doing it.

They create plenty of free YouTube videos, threads in TFLF, and provide value without us needing to join their automation funnels first.

They’re active in TFLF and in their own communities. They aren’t over automating their personal interactions so they can sit on the beach.

They are building assets that showcase the value they can add if you paid them.

It works because they are *showing* us they’re human beings who care - not *telling* us with their carefully crafted stories.
 

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There's a "trick" in public speaking where you take a seemingly long pause, that allows people to catch up. And those people who weren't paying attention, suddenly snap back to the presenter.

Idk If I'm hallucinating, but in programming, for example, every dot and bracket has a purpose. And without it, the entire app could break. So I've noticed a few webinars where their flow is just as you described.

Except they have these random, events, let's call them. Where they'll spill their drink, or something breaks. And it's always in the middle of a loop.

Are they doing this to snap people back in, while at the same time not allowing them to process what they've been fed consciously?

Or are they all clumsy?

That's not something I've encountered with the people I've worked with. It almost sounds like a modified handshake trance induction, but unless we're talking someone like Tony Robbins who's spent half his life practicing that sort of thing, I'd say it's probably just them being clumsy. I haven't come across anyone teaching a method like that, though.
 

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@SinisterLex you mentioned Tier 1, 2 and 3 gurus in your posts. Could you elaborate on the tiers (eg in terms of how they work their charm, their competency level and actual value of their products/services)? Based on what I've read so far is it correct to say that Tier 1 gurus are the real thing, tier 2 gurus may or may not be the real thing (depend on their area of expertise), and tier 3 gurus are just starting out / pure BRO-marketers?

By the way have you come across any Tier 1 guru? I'm just curious to see how you view them and the way they do their marketing. Thanks!

Tier 1 - This would be the digital marketing companies or marketers at the top who spend hundreds of thousands learning what works to sell their marketing system to coaches, coursemakers etc. Neil Patel, and Derek Halpern are two of the more well-known names, but the best example is probably Russ Ruffino's Clients on Demand. The other day in his Facebook group he mentioned their business hit their first million dollar month recently. This group also includes the biggest, most notable coaches, speakers etc. Tony Robbins, Ramit Sethi, and other names you'd know if you heard them. These are influencers others model their systems after.

Tier 2 - At this level you've got gurus who have money to spend on high-ticket training. They're not as well known and you probably haven't heard of them, but they're still training with the big dogs at the top and earning hundreds of thousands, if not millions per year. They spend money on all the retreats and enroll in the most expensive courses and trainings to learn how to sell their coaching programs better. These gurus will buy virtually anything if it will help them sell. The biggest one I worked with directly sells a repackaged version of Clients on Demand system. It's almost exactly the same with a hint of "branding" sprinkled in. Some of the gurus at this level do sell really valuable programs, but you're gonna pay for them.

Tier 3 - This level is made up mostly of people who buy into Tier 2 programs. Tier 2 programs are usually less expensive than Tier 1 programs, (but not always). Unlike Tier 1 and Tier 2, Tier 3 people often have little to no business experience. They're looking for the fast path out of the 9-5, and they believe coaching is the way. Since Tier 2 teaches them to do what they love and use their system to sell it, they end up not making much money, because what they sell isn't worth the $3000-$5000 price tag they slap on it. These people take out loans to buy the training, and they'll buy multiple trainings because they suffer a lot from imposter syndrome. In Tier 3 you find gurus selling more abstract concepts like "life" "inspirational" "spiritual" or "motivation" coaching, because these are concepts where it's hard to measure success, and easy to say someone didn't do it right if it doesn't work.

Tier 4 - This would probably be the final tier. This is the tier a certain recently outed guru around here would fall into. They follow people like Neil Patel or Tony Robbins and try to reverse engineer their systems so they don't have to pay for any training. They might pay for less expensive training such as NLP where they don't have to put much of their own money at risk because they don't have much to spend. This tier includes a lot of ebook wantrepreneurs who sell shit they don't even practice. They sell mostly low cost programs because they don't know anything about selling high-ticket programs, and they have limiting beliefs about others buying from them in the first place. As someone previously mentioned, it's much safer to sell an ebook at $2.99 than a program at $10,000 when what you're selling is crap. If someone refunds $2.99, it's no big deal. But at $10k, that's gonna make a dent. Tier 4 gurus mostly get their info from blogs, emails, books and low-cost gurus at the bottom.
 
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You are right, there's absolutely NEVER a reason to watch through an entire webinar. In some cases, the sellers will give you material / sheets which they used during the webinar. Sometime you might want to download them. If you are absolutely new to a field, which is being upsold from the webinar, the whole webinar may be somewhat useful.

There's no doubt this marketing stuff works though. But the question is Should you do it?

If you want to start an online business yourself, you really have to ask yourself, what is your motivation? Do you want to do this ONLY because a $500 course x 20 paid subscribers per month = $10,000 / month. Is this ALL what you care about? If yes, well Go ahead and do it. But this reason ONLY may not work for everyone.

One person put this to me in a way which has stuck with me. If you want to start an online Business, consider your ideal customer. Consider his situation, his profile, his life, say it's Position A. Now consider the ideal/perfect state the customer wants to be in the field you want to teach. His life, his profile, his situation. Call that Position B.

Now ask yourself, can my course move the guy from Position A -> Position B?
Can I teach him with absolute integrity the methods, actions and tools to move from A to B?

If you answer Yes to both the above, you should ABSOLUTELY create the course. If not, if it's just maybe a little or maybe not, then you are really in it for ONLY yourself and will be FAKING.

Of course I am not saying there's anything wrong with having Money or your own benefit as your motivator. I am saying it shouldn't be at the expense of your customer's benefit.

I wouldn't say there's never a reason to watch webinars. I don't like to close off avenues, and thinking in absolutes hasn't served me well. This isn't to say I disagree with you, though. I've watched webinars where I got useful information, but there's more to guru funnels than webinars anyway.

Many of the people who enroll in guru training do want to help people. Not all of them. Guru advertising targets multiple parts of their desires. They target the emotional side by offering a way to help them scale whatever kind of coaching or courses they currently teach, and also offer to make it more lucrative by showing them how to go from a $150 course to a $15000 course simply by changing a few things.

One common theme I've noticed about the top gurus is they constantly say, "create value" "it's about helping people" and other statements like that. Jordan Belfort's straight line persuasion is a good example. In his course he constantly stresses how important it is to use his techniques in an honest way to help people...he says it, but does he actually think it, and more importantly, does he practice it how he preaches?? :D
 
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GURU LANDING PAGES ARE SHORT AND SWEET
Most guru ads lead to a landing page with an opt-in of some sort (usually for a webinar). The landing page doesn't seem like a page of influence, but it is. We won't spend much time on it because there's not much to cover, but there are a few key things to point out.

LANDING PAGE TITLE

I forgot to cover this on the Facebook ad part, but guru landing pages use the same title as the ad headline. Their titles target very specific people with very specific needs and overcome their objections at the same time.

Screen-Shot-2018-02-24-at-4.32.28-AM.png


This isn't an ad funnel landing page, but it's still a good example. It starts with how simple it is to make a million dollar coaching business. How they did it with just ONE 45-Minute Presentation. Notice they avoid calling it a webinar, because that's kind of a taboo word now.

The headline makes it sound super easy, shows you get something for free, and targets people who want to build a million dollar plus coaching business.

Their subheadline addresses any limiting beliefs the prospect might have that stop them from moving forward. They're saying they did this without a blog, podcast, YouTube, or ANY boring marketing stuff no one wants to do... What they're implying is you can do this without a blog, podcast, YouTube, or ANY BORING PROCESS because who has time for that...

This title will be the headline for their ad, their landing page, their webinar, and will probably be on their sales pages and other marketing communications. The formulas are pretty simple...

How To Do X (great thing)
Without Y (all the bad things)

How To Do X (great thing)
Without Y (bad thing)
Even If (all the reasons that stop you right now)

For instance, one of my past programs used something like:

How To Become A Great Copywriter
(even if you suck at writing and failed English twice)

The top part describes what this is (copywriter training), who it's for (people who want to learn to write copy), and states an outcome without making guarantees. The subheadline uses things people think to themselves (limiting beliefs) to enhance the headline and overcome their doubts.

THE BULLET POINTS

The next thing you'll usually find on these landing pages is a series of bullet points. These bullets simply describe the pain you have and show how that will transform once you go through the webinar.

When you make the shifts you will...

• Have what you need to generate a steady flow of high-pay clients

(even if you don't have any clients right now.)
• Know the secret to growing a loyal following
(even if you don't have any social followers or an email list right now)
• Know how to put yourself on track toward your first 5, or 6 figures
(even if you don't currently believe it is possible right now)
• Discover how to live a life of passion and joy while doing what you love
(without spending years wandering in circles wondering why people won't buy)

These bullets will be very specific to the ideal client, their problems, and their limiting beliefs. They use a similar formula as the title to draw you in, remind you why you're there an what you get, and show you how you, yes, even you, can make this happen!

THE COUNTDOWN TO WEBINAR LAUNCH

Most landing pages have a countdown to webinar launch. A lot of gurus launch several days from the date of signup, but one thing I learned from the top guys is they say they use a system like Stealth Seminar.

Stealth Seminar not only automates webinars, but their countdown timer makes it appear as though the webinar is launching at the top of the hour. That makes it seem like you're just in time...you just barely made it. Lucky you!

Gurus claim this increases webinar conversions by like 90% and people are far more likely to watch the full webinar. What's funny is I notice some of them don't use this system despite teaching it. So I suspect it's mainly another affiliate income source that generates a hefty profit considering Stealth Seminar starts at like $70 a month.

CREDIBILITY MARKERS

If they didn't post credibility markers in their FB ads, they usually will here. Just a little bit. It will either be a testimonial of someone who "closed two $5,000 sales their first week" or logos of the places they've been featured like Entrepreneur.com, Forbes etc. These are usually directly below the bullet points.

LIMITED TIME OFFER

This is the landing page most high-ticket gurus are taught to use. The top guys and girls aren't using it, but it's what they've taught in the past. Usually there's a notice at the bottom that says something like:

"We have 75 seats available and they go fast so join now!

It's part of the template, but they usually modify it a little.

CALL TO ACTION

There's usually 2 calls to action. The rest of the landing page is pretty standard. Not much info beyond the bullets. Just enough to agitate your pain and give you enough reasons to enroll right now.
 
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