You Don’t Have to be a Freelancer

[MJ DeMarco]

I think we get a lot of "copywriting / freelance!" posts here because we get a lot of "I have no money and no skills" posts here. As such, freelancing is viewed as more high value in terms of skill creation and money versus working at Burger King for $15/hour.

Giving a choice, I'd rather freelance 6 hours and make $600 than work 40 hours at Burger King for the same amount.

Hard work as a freelancer might yield personal benefits too (selling yourself, deadlines, discipline) while flipping burgers likely won't.

Most people, especially outside of Western countries have to deal with the reality of having ZERO money, and jobs in their countries don't pay $15/hour, but $5/hour.

 

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[Kak]

Copywriting proponents always talk about how it’s good for someone just starting out. I want to challenge them to find a single copywriter that went on to start a successful multimillion dollar unrelated company.

It’s a lie, distraction, and cop out. No one shows up to an entrepreneur forum with a modicum of ambition wishing they could be a keyboard ninja 18 hours a day.

The freelance cultist groupthink needs to stop. This is an entrepreneur forum and not a support group for struggling freelancers. We are here to actually thrive.

You might wonder why I’m so vehement about this lately. It pains me to see bad advice so freely flowing.

It’s time we take some ground back, as a forum, for true scalable and high value commerce. It is available to you even if you think it isn’t.

Edit: If you go through the thread there are several examples of entrepreneurs that started without being a freelancer first. I know because I posted three of them. Feel free to post your own examples. The point of this thread is to put on high display some alternative, and higher probability, starts that show it can be done. You don’t have to be a freelancer first or forever.

This thread is a reminder that entrepreneurs are people that think outside the box and are willing to face things that might be more difficult.

 

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[Fox]

As a forum sponsor for a straight up freelancing offer let me give me two cents.
And no it won't be to shill freelancing, I agree with a lot of points here.

Instead, I wanted to give my thoughts on why freelancing probably comes up so much more these days.

First, I would guess over the last few few years the traffic of the forum has become less American and more global. In most new threads these days I am seeing members from all over - Europe, Asia, South America, Africa etc.

This also goes along with where I see MJ's books promoted the most - usually on very international channels/content with a large beginner following. This is one example...

For a lot of these countries freelancing is an obvious first choice. You have a job you don't like (or no job at all), and you want to start becoming more entrepreneurial. But your cashflow is next to nothing and your options super limited.

Freelancing is a way to jump in fast with minimal capital needed and not a whole lot of risk (except time).
You have an internet connection and possibility of international clients who can pay 10-50x local wages.

This usually also lines up with the culture of this regions. When you are from a small town in Ireland or Poland or Uganda your local "brick and mortar" options are low and you don't exactly have access to much or any credit.

The appeal of starting a physical store or going washing cars in these countries is next to nothing.
What can be a great hustle in America can quickly get you bankrupt and homeless in some of these countries.

For example I heard on a Lewis Howes podcast a story of how his neighbour was making $3k a day walking dogs.
Like okay - but walking dogs in most other parts of the world means you are practically homeless.

So it isn't that these people don't want to go big, it is that they can't see how.
It is yet hard to imagine a full Fastlane approach to life, and freelancing is a more tangible bridge to get started with.

And none of this is meant to be a limiting belief - big things can always be done in any region.
But just stating the fact of what most people are likely to lean towards in different regions.

Think of the "possibility" difference in perspective between someone from NYC and someone from a Romania village. One guy can get a subway downtown and see all types of wealth creation in person. The other guy walks out the door and sees some farmers moving sheep from one field to another.

Also, I think another reason for this "freelancing activity" is the lack of other niches making much noise at the moment. Where are all the new property threads, or new ecommerce threads, or product creation, or Saas businesses?

And I am 100% not pointing fingers here. All the active forum members (and of course MJ) do a lot of work to help any new threads get going. But I just don't see the organic push on these topics right now - maybe it is post-scamdemic or the current economy.

But - the other niches do seem quiet atm.
So freelancing wins out by just being more popular in general atm...



I do get the counter argument here though - if there were more non-freelancing threads...maybe it would attract even more bigger Fastlane threads and so on.

My thoughts on that though is the pyramid of knowledge. You will always have 80% of people in a large open community at a starting level. So if you want to promote more advanced topics (like BIG Fastlane type progress) then it needs to be done more directly, like hosting calls or doing interviews etc. - and then promoting them over other topics.

Otherwise the starting threads will outnumber the rest 10:1.
it is just the nature of a large form with tons of new members each week.

---

On the copywriting side of this - ya a lot of people need to be honest with themselves and see it isn't the right route for them. To try and compete as a non-english speaker and hope to run a profitable freelancing copywriting business is not very realistic. As Andy said there are way better options like video editing or something more technical.

But copy as a skill (not a business) is of course super valuable, I am sure no one disagrees with that.
So it is more about how people use skills, than the skills themselves.

Anyway, this is getting a bit ramblely but my thoughts would be that this issue could probably be best solved on the forum design/intro side of things. Just like a social media platform's algorithm - you would want a design that pushes certain types of threads more to the front that others.

This way the "goal" of the forum and MJ's work is woven into the journey a new forum user would take and what type of content they are likely to interact with the most. But much easier said that done ha! (Managing a large forum is a beast of a thing and these ideas take 100s of hours of hard work to even test!).

For example a "Fastlane" section with the big historical and current progress threads and then a different Freelancing section with "a guide" to show how it can connect to a bigger plan.

But... I know MJ has worked hard on the layout and that the base software for this forum is a nightmare.
So not saying this is easy, or that it would even work, just more my own guess on what might help.

But ya - it would be cool to see much more BIG fastlane threads.
Freelancers (and everyone else) need to see what is possible with thinking big.

Skills can get you going, but the business model is the way to win.

 

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[Andy Black]

Copywriting proponents always talk about how it’s good for someone just starting out. I want to challenge them to find a single copywriter that went on to start a successful multimillion dollar unrelated company.

It’s a lie, distraction, and cop out. No one shows up to an entrepreneur forum with a modicum of ambition wishing they could be a keyboard ninja 18 hours a day.

The freelance cultist groupthink needs to stop. This is an entrepreneur forum and not a support group for struggling freelancers. We are here to actually thrive.

You might wonder why I’m so vehement about this lately. It pains me to see bad advice so freely flowing.

It’s time we take some ground back, as a forum, for true scalable and high value commerce. It is available to you even if you think it isn’t.

By default I recommend freelancing to people new to business. They get paid to get good at a skill, at selling that skill, and to rub shoulders with business owners if their service is B2B.

I've never recommended copywriting though as I think (guess) it's harder to make work than, say, setting up a website, creating short videos from long videos, or even setting up ads for businesses.

The next time a 13 year old joins wondering what business to setup I'm still going to ask if they watch a lot of YouTube and if they've ever edited videos. Our 10 and 12 year old kids have uploaded YouTube Shorts off their own bat. They wouldn't be able to create any decent copy, and certainly wouldn't be able to land contracts managing paid ads for businesses.

I consider self-employed plumbers, accountants, and software developers as freelancers or solo-preneurs too. I think it's a step towards setting up a business. The harsh learnings trying to sell your skill will teach people a lot about sales, and how little it is about your skills or certifications. Then there's the step of scaling by divorcing your time from your revenue. These are all great skills to learn, and they can be stacked on top of each other.

I'd rather someone starting out picked a skill and then got paid to learn how to deliver great results, rather than spend thousands on business or marketing courses, or on products they then try to sell.

Going self-employed/freelance is often the start or someone's entrepreneurial journey and I for one have a soft spot for helping people on that journey.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

View attachment 47361

You can choose to focus on a proven road to true scalable entrepreneurship. Brick by brick. Or you can build your freelance prison brick by brick.

Except for me, freelancing (web design) was a brick that laid a STAIRS, not a WALL.

However, I knew freelancing was a "means to an end" as I had bigger dreams and goals.

Someone who joins Planet Fitness is taking the right step forward. Is it the step forward to become the next Mr. Olympia or fitness competitor? Maybe, maybe not ... really depends on the PERSON and their goals.

Freelancing got me on the playing field, it gave me confidence, and it allowed me to improve my skills without a lot of downside risk.

While I understand the "don't freelance" argument, I think you guys are missing the forest through the trees.

It's easy to have a hindsight bias and say "Boy, those lawns I mowed when I was 18 was a mistake, that's not Fastlane!"

Everyone has to start somewhere which is OK as long as you know it is temporary. Like a job. A stepping stone. One brick on a stairway to bigger and better things.

Is it preferable to jump into your first business that has the potential for multi-million dollar scale?

Absolutely.

Is that reasonable to think everyone can do that?

No.

Especially when you're dealing with a lot of people from lessor developed countries where $1000/mo is a king's ransom.

It's sad to see this debate because I agree with both sides, and clearly no one wants to budge, or accept that 19 year olds who are struggling to pay their smartphone bill can't envision themselves owning a company with 10,000 employees.

I see both sides and I acknowledge different people need different steps.

Hell, in my own life, my step son (who just got a job and has no interest in entrepreneurship) is starting to see the cracks and problems as a 9-5 employee.

Now he's suddenly curious about how his step-father can live the life he leads. (Interestingly, my step-son doesn't listen to a word I say generally speaking) If he told me he made $500 on his own as a freelancer (in his chosen field) I would be ecstatic for him. I certainly wouldn't scream, "that's not Fastlane!"

Not only does he need to learn how to talk to people, he needs to see how people can be self-directed and earn their own $$. It's amazing how this concept is foreign to many (even in my own life) that you don't need a boss or an employer to earn an income. Step one. One brick, one new neural pathway.

Step two is when I'll start screaming Fastlane!

For him, I know his first step NEEDS TO be small -- to make his own scratch without a boss or an employer. That's how freelancing would work for his personal journey based on his experience, skills, and confidence. It's not the end, but the means.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

I agree, that was certainly the process for me. However, I think people like @Kak and Dan Pena may be suggesting an alternative that gets you to jump straight into (2) or even (3). This thread seems to be pretty much aimed at saying skip the freelancing/job, think bigger, start a business. What it's missing is some guidance on the how.

I learned the how by hustling, as you say... took me quite awhile!

An entrepreneur doesn't need the how. Figuring out how is what an entrepreneur does.

I think this is what frustrates me about freelance culture. People go toward freelance because they don't have to figure out how. That part is already spelled out step-by-step and most still can't make it work.

To me, an entrepreneur doesn't need instructions or permission. Instructions are helpful but not necessary. Permission isn't helpful or necessary.

I mean...if Kak saying freelancing isn't entrepreneurship would stop you from freelancing when you think it's worth it, then do you really have what it takes to succeed in freelancing or business?

None of this is a suggestion to start a rocket fuel business with no experience. I don't disagree with Kak's approach to business, but I don't follow it. I follow my own and I don't need permission.

Anyone considering freelancing should step back and ask themselves if freelancing is really necessary or if it's just a less scary (more comfortable) path. Also, ask yourself what are the chances you get stuck freelancing for income and can't break free because you can't go back to a job and you're too scared to go forward as a business.

Think about it, then make a F*cking decision and just do it and give me and Kak and everyone else the middle finger as you rise to success and share how you did it.

 

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[Antifragile]

Copywriting proponents always talk about how it’s good for someone just starting out. I want to challenge them to find a single copywriter that went on to start a successful multimillion dollar unrelated company.

It’s a lie, distraction, and cop out. No one shows up to an entrepreneur forum with a modicum of ambition wishing they could be a keyboard ninja 18 hours a day.

The freelance cultist groupthink needs to stop. This is an entrepreneur forum and not a support group for struggling freelancers. We are here to actually thrive.

You might wonder why I’m so vehement about this lately. It pains me to see bad advice so freely flowing.

It’s time we take some ground back, as a forum, for true scalable and high value commerce.

100% this.

We need to pivot the discussion. Stop with bad advice and start with better than bad advice.

If I was 20 again, what would I do? Knowing what I know now…

1. Cover the bills. Yea, get a job if you need to.
2. Start a business. Buy/sell shit on Craigslist, become a plumber, hire people, provide snow clearing in winter, whatever. Fail or succeed, expect to win big in experiences. Start a drywall company. Do it better than competitors by learning, studying, practicing, tinkering…

Don’t do copywriting “business” unless you are a rockstar at creating an agency.

Shit like that. I’m just spitballing.

 

[Lex DeVille]

Should you learn how to write marketing copy? Yes

Should you start a business as a freelance copywriter? No no no no no no no no no no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Should you buy my guru courses if you freelance on Upwork? Yes.

Can you trust me? No.

Are freelancers just job-seekers? Yes.

Are freelancers entrepreneurs? No.

Does @BizyDad think I'm incredibly good-looking? Yes.

Can we stop talking about freelancing now? I f*cking hope so.

Can someone who comes here with written skills like a 12 year old truly go market those “skills?”

I did, but I still wouldn't recommend it lol.

 

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[Kak]

I understand your and @Antifragile point of view, but I think you guys may be having difficulty empathising with those that aren't wired the same way as you. Not only that, but not everyone has the same values or end goals.

I may agree with alot of what you espouse, but no matter how technically "correct" your advice is; For those that aren't as driven as you, it just sounds like your screaming from an ivory tower.

Advice like "have you ever sold anything online or worked for yourself" is meant to meet people where they are at.

To give an example outside our field....Smokers know that they just have to quit. Duh. You aren't uncovering some deep lost knowledge on them if you told them that. It's just a choice bruh. Just stop..... For some people that even works. But for many people, finally quitting involved a much more turbulent path that involves alot of trial/error, baby steps and bite sized chunks. You clean your room one paper at a time.

I know you haven’t been here very long, but this forum used to be a place for big dreams. This forum used to be a place that helped others who were legitimately interested in bigger things. Countless people were chasing big and cool things. That energy was still there at the 2020 meetup.

Today there is very little legitimate interest in bigger things. There is frankly little interest in entrepreneurship in general. It’s all odd jobs, side hustles, freelancing and 100k a year dreams.

I view this move as a disappointment. I know countless people that have spent time here and started great entrepreneurial ventures. People who would even, to this day, credit this forum with cutting that learning curve. It always pissed me off that they would just evaporate after, but that’s another discussion.

The spirit of the forum has changed. I’m now unreasonable for thinking we should be helping others make bold moves instead of being a clapping seal when they decide to chase a $500 a month freelance gig. That mentality is not going to attract the real life changing helpfulness out of other entrepreneurs, and my patience for being "the unreasonable one," for sharing and encouraging the truth about how people actually build wealth, is waning.

Heck, it worked for me! But now I'm "ivory towers and gated neighborhood Kak" that "doesn't understand." You're right, I don't. I don't understand why we are burying the truth.

We, as entrepreneurs, are supposed to be unreasonable. Being reasonable is to be accepting of the status quo. I’m concerned my actual entrepreneurial ambition has expired here. I find that to be a shame.

 

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[RicardoGrande]

I think we get a lot of "copywriting / freelance!" posts here because we get a lot of "I have no money and no skills" posts here. As such, freelancing is viewed as more high value in terms of skill creation and money versus working at Burger King for $15/hour.

Giving a choice, I'd rather freelance 6 hours and make $600 than work 40 hours at Burger King for the same amount.

Hard work as a freelancer might yield personal benefits too (selling yourself, deadlines, discipline) while flipping burgers likely won't.

Most people, especially outside of Western countries have to deal with the reality of having ZERO money, and jobs in their countries don't pay $15/hour, but $5/hour.

This. I have a dayjob in a specialized IT field that wouldn't allow me to do anything else unless someone wanted to hire a part time paper jockey or I signed my life away in contracts being a managed-services provider for local and small businesses. I did work to learn and re-skill twice but ultimately came to the understanding I was building up the foundation for another J.O.B. and more of the same I had at my current job.

@Fox And his web school gave me away to adapt part of my skill set (programming, infrastructure, design skills leftover from college) into making a month's worth of my pay with just 80-120 hours of work. It's not perfect and I've had to make over 2,000 cold calls and stretch myself to the limit to get to a point where I can live just off of freelancing- but the sense of agency and responsibility woke me the F--- up from the zombie-like state I'd been for YEARS while "toying around" with product or ecommerce ideas.

I've also learned a lot about how businesses operate and grow and function at higher levels and made a lot of personal connections and gained knowledge I never would have if I never bothered to start freelancing. This field is saturated as F--- like @Kak says but now that I have more skills, more time, and more capital I can focus on a different business to grow and graduate out of being a freelancer while also not hating my life and the few precious years I have left of being in my 20s.

 

[Kak]

I think we get a lot of "copywriting / freelance!" posts here because we get a lot of "I have no money and no skills" posts here. As such, freelancing is viewed as more high value in terms of skill creation and money versus working at Burger King for $15/hour.

Giving a choice, I'd rather freelance 6 hours and make $600 than work 40 hours at Burger King for the same amount.

Hard work as a freelancer might yield personal benefits too (selling yourself, deadlines, discipline) while flipping burgers likely won't.

Most people, especially outside of Western countries have to deal with the reality of having ZERO money, and jobs in their countries don't pay $15/hour, but $5/hour.

I see your point, but, how does someone with “no skills” suddenly grow an effective and marketable copywriting skill? A skill they can somehow magically sell for $100/hr no less.

2/3 of the time the person they are suggesting copywriting to has pisspoor spelling and grammar too. I understand that English can be a second or third or fourth language, and it excuses their abilities for all, but the most formal use of language. Selling written ad copy is a formal use of the language. They may be better in their first language, but literally zero people suggesting this line of work know.

Can someone who comes here with written skills like a 12 year old truly go market those “skills?”

So my perception of the money side of this argument is the computer. If they have a computer, they have some resources. They can buy rags and wash windows. They can buy paint brushes and start painting. They can buy some wood and start building some shit. They can buy some ingredients and start selling some food. All of that stuff can be turned into a business if you get the value right.

The true answer to having no skills and money though is to build more skills, not accept some lot in life and reject anything that looks like hard work.

 

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[Fox]

This thread is full of a million straw-man arguments.

Yes - DONT freelance forever
Yes - freelancing can often become a job

But also...

Yes - some people need a place to get started
Yes - for some people freelancing can lead to bigger things

IMO if you can't make freelancing work, then you probably couldn't have made entrepreneurship work.
And if you start freelancing and you don't go on to do bigger things - then maybe it was never going to happen anyway.

One example: Jimmy starts offering a writing service, 10 years later he is still selling 10 pages of content for $100.

Another example: @MJ DeMarco starts with a freelancer business > goes on to build huge entrepreneurial business.

It isn't freelancing, it is the person.

But if some of you want to shit on half the planet and where they are at mentally, financially, economically, and with their actual skills then I guess go for it. Whatever makes you feel better with where you are at right now.

But the person who joins this forum tomorrow is starting with where they are at.
So instead of some thread shitting on them - maybe make some threads helping them up the ladder.

The people on this thread going full rant on freelancers - what threads have you made this year showing a freelancer how to go bigger? Or last year?

If it's such a big pain point, maybe direct this energy towards showing them how to do it.

Cause this thread isn't it.

----

@GuitarManDan started with SEO and web design freelancing, turns it into a very profitable SEO business, is now creating a massive brand management business - will probably do 7 figures profit this or next year.

For every example you guys have - there are other examples of people who did make it work.
The truth isn't at either extreme - it is with helping the people in the middle.

 

[Andy Black]

So go on. Keep feeding the fire. Keep “helping people” remain inside their comfort zones. Keep “helping people” stagnate. Keep “helping people” wallow in their excuses. Keep “helping people” build their fear of failure. I’m done.

Everyone quit what you’re doing and be a freelance copywriter. The new script says it’s the right move.

You don't need any help from me Kyle. Neither does Antifragile, Lex Deville, Rob, or many who've replied to this thread.

The vast majority of new forum members who join haven't made a single dollar off their own back though.

I keep trying to help people make their first sale. I keep trying to help people get out of their comfort zone of reading books, listening to podcasts, and action faking.

My message is to take a step. Help someone. Get paid. Tada, now you're in motion. Then figure out how to scale.

And yes, I figure selling your time and expertise is a good first step for many.


Can the people arguing in here lead the way and help more people in the forum?

I'm reminded of this story:

Back in 1990 I was on the first day of a course to become an Assistant Club Coach for Track and Field Athletics.

We were welcomed and our first instructor was introduced - some old chap ... who just happened to be one of the top freaking coaches in England!

Wow, one of the top coaches in the country turned up to teach us newbies? I was impressed, and dumb-struck.

He commented on this too, asking whether we thought the best coaches should coach the Olympic athletes, or coach the kids who've just turned up to their first training session.

We figured the best coaches should coach the best athletes, but he just smiled and shook his head.

He reasoned that the Olympic athletes can pretty much coach themselves. That they're so passionate about the sport they'd overcome whatever problems they had... even if it meant asking for help.

Whereas... the young child who's just started in athletics needs the best coach they can get. So they get started on the right foot. So they don't get injured. So they pick up the right skills in a way they understand. And most importantly, so they enjoy themselves and don't drop out of the sport, or even worse, drop out of sports altogether.

We were going to become assistant club coaches in grass roots clubs. We were going to be the first coaches the youngest kids would interact with. This guy's mission, in the two hours he had us, was to make us good enough coaches to keep those kids coming back.

 

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[JordanK]

Lots of interesting perspectives in this thread. As someone who transitioned from a "freelancer" to a more traditional business (Real Estate) I can see merit in both arguments.

To address the current economic climate that is leading to an increase in the number of people aspiring to be freelancers and/or entrepreneurs in the Western/English speaking world. I believe it comes down to a few key things that have changed in recent years.

- The Changing Jobs Market: Many of our parents had jobs for life with reasonably good pay/benefits and job security. Sure many people spent a few years in the wilderness in their 20's but most eventually locked down a good job that suited their circumstances. With this income they went on to purchase houses, cars, foreign holidays, fund pensions and generally improved their standard of living. Nowadays there is a lot less "loyalty" in organizations going both ways. People freely move between jobs every 1-2 years, the benefits usually aren't great hence why many younger workers are referred to here in Ireland/UK as "yellow packs" their contracts are significantly worse than the ones many of their older peers were on at similar ages. These average jobs don't provide the same purchasing power for young people to buy the same assets that their parents did at similar ages.

- The Housing Market: In my city if you want to rent a bedroom within a shared house you are looking at 600-700 monthly before bills. This was only 300-350 as recently as 2014. The minimum wage was 9.15 per hour in 2014 and is 11.50 in 2023.
In 1990 the average income per year to home price ratio in Ireland was 4 it is now 8. Young people and college students are spending up to and above half their income on housing.

- The Instagram Effect: Jumping on social media right now as a 25 year old in my city is pretty crazy. Hundreds of my friends are emigrating to Australia where wages are higher, the weather is better and while the cost of living is also high there... their money goes further and gets them a better standard of living. Many of my other friends have become digital nomads.. they have given up on a 9-5 job, college degree career path and the ambition of owning a home for the moment. Instead they've jumped on the bandwagon and gotten a freelancing job earning them 2-4k per month and are traveling around the globe. Their Instagram feeds look dope and they are living a much cooler lifestyle than a soul destroying mediocre existence in this country. People are watching what there friends are doing and thinking to themselves... why can't I do that... alongside the absolute overflow of information & courses promoting all these type of businesses.

- The Lockdown Effect: Many people never considered remote working as a possibility for them pre-lockdown. Suddenly all the jobs that could transitioned online. These people built new habits around their remote working lifestyle at home and now either demand that there current job keep these or they wish to travel with it by moving into freelancing. A lot of the job roles they have been trained into by there corporate employers are transmissible to freelancing.



The old social contract is over. It's a new playing field and people are discovering that in their millions. People raged on this forum about college for years and the truth is finally being discovered by the masses on that too. It is a time of great change.

Many of these new age "entrepreneurs" don't seek the same freedom many of us do. Or maybe they do superficially but deep down they are really only looking for something that offers them the same standard of living that their parents had or to travel. They cap out at 5k per month and are generally happy with that as it provides them the life they really want without struggling to get by each month or having to beg there 12 euro an hour boss to let them take some time off to go on vacation.



For my own personal story. I read MJ's book when I was 13 and always had a small side hustle business going throughout school. When I went to college my parents were still broke as a result of the 2008 recession and all their investment properties getting foreclosed on. For the first year I lived in a box bedroom in my aunts house in the college city. I did no foreign travel with friends this year, missed out on most of the traditional college experience and struggled to pay tuition. When I asked my parents to support me renting a room in a house with my friends for year two of college they told me they could only afford to give me 200 a month towards rent, bills and food. My rent was 550, bills another 100 and probably 150-200 for food/partying/misc. I went looking for a business that could provide me instant cashflow while also allowing me time to study.

At the time I had been friendly here on the forum with @Fox. Him and Andy were the only two Irish guys I knew on here. Fox was beginning to make decent money to pay for all his living expenses in Colombia where he was living and by the time he came back to Ireland to visit he was killing it with a few major 10k projects. I was driving by his parents town where he was staying while I was on the way to college one day. I sent him a message and we met up. As an 18 year old dude at the time, this was the first other Irish person of similar age that I had met that was living life on his own terms. Sure I'd read the book and listened to a bunch of you American guys on the forum but here was Fox... someone from a similar background to me doing it. I left his house that day with a newfound confidence that entrepreneurship was right for me.

Fast forward a little bit... I crashed out completely after 2 months of "trying" to sell web design to companies in the US. However... I learned a lot of solid lessons about cold calling, client management, time management, setting my own schedule of work, billing/invoicing etc etc... Lex's thread here on the forum caught my eye and I went into copywriting. Armed with the previous experience I fared much better and within a few months of upskilling/working I was having 5k months. I COULD PAY THE RENT! Pay for college, run a vehicle, go on multiple foreign trips with friends, go to restaurants, party and still save money! Wow...

but I knew this was only the beginning for me.

It was super hard work prospecting all the time, grinding workloads, occasional bad clients, working off the US time-zones while living in Ireland. While I was a decent copywriter who went above and beyond for clients I knew it wasn't my calling... I wasn't a top 1% talent in this field who loved this profession... it was a means to an end.

So I did what in hindsight was the best decision I ever made... I pivoted into Real Estate where I could speak the language and had prior experience from the fact I grew up around it as a kid when my Dad was heavy invested before he lost most of it. By chance I happened to meet a big Real Estate Investor here in the city and I provided value for him, done a tonne of grunt work mostly for free (He bought me food, beers and occasionally gave me 50-100 at the end of the week if it was particularly hard work) while I spent hours and hours learning from him. Outside of the time needed for college and freelancing work I was with him. Suddenly, in year two a few key members of his team left and I started filling in and soon enough I'd left college, closed down the copywriting business and was doing contract work for him full time. The dynamic switched and now he was providing tonnes of work opportunities above and beyond my level/pay at the time because we'd been in the trenches together... his business was now doing really well. I still do lots of work for him, I have partnered with him on his deals, he's supported some of my deals.. I have other business partners who I work with too now and I'v been fully self employed for 4 years with this business.

I couldn't have dedicated that free first year of learning in the Real Estate field without freelancing. I also wouldn't have known a bunch of different business processes or methods that made me an asset to a business owner like my mentor without my trials & errors during freelancing.

I'm not as active here on the forum as I have great friends from here, the summit and people within the profession who can keep me on the right track/provide good advice. The Real Estate market is significantly different here in Ireland to the UK, USA, Canada or any other country so the help that can be provided is limited. I also feel that a lot of my learning's wouldn't be relevant to a US audience. Also, most of the people I work with are super super private.. like above and beyond private with their dealings so I'd be limited in what I could post anyways.

I'm looking forward to scaling up my business a lot further so I can do more deals by myself (that I can post about), increase my earnings etc..

Ok enough rambling... I think the story is a pretty cool explainer for how those of us who want to go further will always find or at a minimum, seek a way.

 

[Kak]

Funny enough about the Burger King posts…

A friend of mine got his start at Taco Bell. He worked the lowest level job they had. No manager or anything.

Today, he owns 5 hamburger restaurants in small towns all over Texas. He’s a multimillionaire. He swears he learned a ton from that job.

That’s one more guy that made the leap from fast food to multimillionaire than I know that did it from freelancing.

 

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[NeoDialectic]

This made me think. I recently had a similar conversation with someone else. I was asked “how did you get to living in ____ and driving range rovers?”

I grew up in the USSR. It collapsed, I saw hyperinflation as a kid. Life wasn’t sunshine and roses. In fact, it felt like a small hell. No money and no prospects… unless I left somewhere else.

At 17 I won a national spot at the best international high school. This meant a full academic scholarship that covered travel, food, shelter, tuition and books. It was the only way to leave for me… this was the 90s and believe me, everyone I knew wanted to leave to come to America… but 99.999% couldn’t.

I moved countries again a few years after. Still had nothing and came alone. As international student + scholarship, but smaller. Everything I owned I could fit in one suitcase. Working was a must. Or you don’t eat.

The point is: My drive in life came from despair. I worked as a cleaning crew for a “hotel” making beds and changing toilet paper rolls. Worked at a food bank etc.

I’ve hit so many personal lows in my 20s that when I look back now … my personal drive came from desperation. MJ called it the FTE, and I feel I’ve had too many of them.

It drove me to side hustles. Too many to list … all made better money that my jobs.

So I take exception to anyone saying “ivory tower” now that I have high net worth, and successful businesses. My advice to anyone reading is based on how I see the world, not on how I now live.

I've spent a good 30 minutes thinking about your post before replying. There are so many directions we can take this conversation but it's too much to go through by forum posts

For one of my lines of thinking, the broad strokes would go like this:

• The Ivory Tower comment wasn't a dig at you. My comment was based on how it may seem to those whom you are advising. I am among the first to firmly push back at the idea that all successful people just lucked into their roles, and hearing your story during our convo only reinforced that.
• I may have needed to do a better job stressing that I think the advice you and @Kak give is generally right for those who value building a big business.
• In the past (especially during my most driven years), I would give advice based on what I thought was the most "right"
• I'm pretty sure no one ever acted on my advice from that time.
• The lesson I learned: Perfect advice that isn't acted on, is worse than good advice that is acted on. I choose effective over perfect.
• Since I am trying to optimize helping others actualize their values, I conclude that the optimal advice is then whatever is closest to that "right" advice they will actually do.
• Some people are self-driven and hungry.
• Some people are completely lost, don't know what to do, have limited skills, and haven't shown previous signs of ever doing anything outside the mold. But they also know they don't like where they are and want to change.
• The first group of people are rare and aren't coming on here asking if they should pick up copywriting.
• Telling the self-driven and motivated person with experience in fixing problems to go into copywriting may be malpractice.
• 95% of people asking for advice here probably fit into the second category. There is no shame in that, especially when you're young. There are only so many life experiences and skills you could have picked up in your early years. Or maybe you had a values shift because of some life events.
• Telling someone that has been a consumer their entire life and has never had an independent thought in their whole life that they should open up X big business is just wasting your breath.
• The most important step that the second group will ever take is the first actionable step—only followed by the second step. The unfortunate set of circumstances is that the longer I give advice, the more I have concluded that it seems like the most aggressive first step most are willing to do is a baby step towards entrepreneurship. Even if that means freelancing just to disconnect from the idea that they need to follow orders from a boss.
• The more I have given advice based on this updated model, the more I see people actually acting on my advice.
• Many fall off and go back to their original lives...Which obviously would have happened to them anyways.
• While others are on their 5th iteration, getting closer to the gold every time. Yea, it sucks that they had to trudge through the mud just like we did and make simple mistakes. But I'm not sure if the process can be reliably skipped. We can only absorb the knowledge we have earned the right to understand. Your mistakes built the bridge to the promise land that you live in.

Thoughts?

P.S.
I think @BizyDad has made some similar observations as me in this regard. If I had to guess, his frustration is stemming from the fact that having people shame those first steps makes his "job" of getting people to do those steps that much harder and it results in fewer entrepreneurs in the end.

 

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[biophase]

Today there is very little legitimate interest in bigger things. There is frankly little interest in entrepreneurship in general. It’s all odd jobs, side hustles, freelancing and 100k a year dreams.

I think this is just due to many of the older and original forum posters moving on by being successful and getting older. Not many people who are doing big things are coming back to the forum to answer "beginner" questions.

The spirit of the forum has changed. I’m now unreasonable for thinking we should be helping others make bold moves instead of being a clapping seal when they decide to chase a $500 a month freelance gig. That mentality is not going to attract the real life changing helpfulness out of other entrepreneurs, and my patience for being "the unreasonable one," for sharing and encouraging the truth about how people actually build wealth, is waning.

The forum has changed because the big stuff info has moved to private forums or masterminds. You eventually get to a point where your "big" questions just cannot be answered by another random forum member. You are going to ask someone you know because 1) it's private info 2) it's very specific to you.

Now regarding the rest of the thread. I view freelancing as the first step. I don't think anyone here wants to be doing the low level work for the rest of their life. When I say low level, I mean it as the grunt work of the business. But even with that said, if the low level work pays enough, you can do it all you want. It's like a personal trainer, just training randoms every day for $100/hr without thought of what the business will look like in 5 years. But if he's training NBA players at $250k a year, then maybe he doesn't need to expand his business.

I also think it is unrealistic to tell someone at the beginning level to think bigger. At this level they have level 1 thinking, make money doing something with their time. Sometimes the dream big just glosses their eyes over and you just lose them. Believe me, alot of kids in college can't comprehend these seemingly complicated strategies. They seem to just think 1 or maybe 2 steps ahead.

I remember when I got my first job as an engineer. All I did was review plans. When I was done, I told my boss the plans were correct. He stamped them and then sent them to the client. I remember thinking, I don't want to do this grunt work forever, I want to eventually be the guy that just stamps the drawings. I didn't think, I want to own that company that hires the guy stamping the drawings. That came later as my views and thoughts expanded.

 

[Kak]

THE TITLE OF THE THREAD

I changed it for a reason. This isn’t about attacking freelancing as entrepreneurship. It isn’t entrepreneurship or business ownership. It’s self employment at best, but most of this is contract employment by Upwork.

This should be about the fact that every single millionaire entrepreneur started somewhere, and it wasn’t a cookie cutter prescription for freelancing that got them where they ultimately ended up.

I’ll go, I started mowing lawns and washing cars in high school… In college I signed up, for free, with several providers, to broker their electricity services to businesses. It cost me zero dollars to start. Just a computer and a phone. I ended up landing an entire municipality and also a million square foot data center.

It was saturated but, I was the first to employ echosign at the time and have electronic contracts instead of faxed. So they could sign up on my website. It was pioneering in a weird way and led to some decent success.

I ultimately sold that company and went on to a bunch of other stuff. That’s just how it happened.

Everyone is an unskilled idiot until they aren’t.

 

[BizyDad]

You think I’m trying to shit on people. I’m not. I’m trying to help them see alternatives and understand that they don’t have to settle. Make no mistake that’s what this is.

This forum was founded on principles that form a solid business. CENTS. We used to take no prisoners with MLM crap and affiliate marketing.

CENTS is totally ignored now. It’s not an objective measurement any longer. Now it’s all about “feelings.”

Again I say, you’re a unskilled idiot until you’re not. I’m helping people out of that problem not helping them wallow in it.

So berate me all you want, you of all people know deep down where my heart is on this.

I said no such thing. I don't think you are dumping on people. I said you dump on an industry and a skill set. And you are.

It is one thing to try and open people's minds to other possibilities. That's really cool of you.

But repeated rants about freelancing being a terrible starting point are both off the mark and not helpful.

Doesn't owning burger franchises violate CENTS? I mean, if you want to champion CENTS, then champion it.

But wait, owning several Burger King sounds like a good idea to me. Not everything always has to adhere to CENTS. I see having a CENTS business as the goal, not the starting point.

Now how does one get the skills? Go to school, read, get a job, freelance, or start a business. Ok, maybe starting with a bonafide business is the best place to start. Ok. But does that mean that reading or freelancing is a terrible starting point?

It really depends on the person. We all got to go through what we got to go through in life to get to where we're going to get to.

Forget learning copywriting, freelancing with ANY skill is a time suck that doesn't pay off for most people.

This is something that can be said about starting a business too. It really doesn't pay off for most people.

Winner gonna win, learners gonna learn, earners gonna earn. But that doesn't mean that they should all start with a cents business. Some people gonna start start off with Amazon FBA or a marketing agency, Or they're going to start by reading The Millionaire Fastlane , and that's okay too...

I think you and Kak suffer from the bias of having "made it" and from your vantage point on the mountaintop, you can see way better paths up mountain. I'm not even saying you guys are wrong necessarily.

But to the person starting off at the bottom, putting one foot in front of the other, whether that is reading a book, getting a job, freelancing, or starting a business, the most important thing they could do is take those steps. They have to walk their path. They can't see the path you see. Or maybe they see it, and they don't feel like they have the endurance or the gumption to face it. So they take a path they think they can handle.

And that's okay. But like you said, the important thing is not to get stuck there.

For anybody reading this, keep taking the steps you need to take to get you where you want to go. And it doesn't matter if more successful people tell you you are doing it wrong. It's your life. No one else is going to hike your mountain road for you. Do what you got to do. The most important thing an entrepreneur can do is make their own mistakes and learn from them.

We blast guys like Dave Ramsey for giving advice that they didn't follow themselves. But in this Lex and Kak are both in that boat now. And I think that's funny.

I came here because I received a notification that my name was mentioned, I couldn't find it, lol I was about to leave when i decided to start reading this thread. The reason why I didn't want to read it was because i now hate copywriters lol ( Will explain here)

But first is an honor that @BizyDad has mentioned me I almost cried seriously. Is a lonely road being an entrepreneur, and is a lonely position being on top. I actually embraced the loneliness, but there are times you want to be at least recognized for your hard work.

Bro. Keep going homie. You're not alone. I'm rooting for you. You can DM me anytime you need to talk.

Shoot, you could probably DM Kak or Lex too. They're good dudes and know more about a lot of stuff than I do.

Do me a favor. I couldn't find your thread, but can you please share it here in this one so people can read your progress?

 

[Fox]

I know you haven’t been here very long, but this forum used to be a place for big dreams. This forum used to be a place that helped others who were legitimately interested in bigger things. Countless people were chasing big and cool things. That energy was still there at the 2020 meetup.

Today there is very little legitimate interest in bigger things. There is frankly little interest in entrepreneurship in general. It’s all odd jobs, side hustles, freelancing and 100k a year dreams.

I view this move as a disappointment. I know countless people that have spent time here and started great entrepreneurial ventures. People who would even, to this day, credit this forum with cutting that learning curve. It always pissed me off that they would just evaporate after, but that’s another discussion.

The spirit of the forum has changed. I’m now unreasonable for thinking we should be helping others make bold moves instead of being a clapping seal when they decide to chase a $500 a month freelance gig. That mentality is not going to attract the real life changing helpfulness out of other entrepreneurs, and my patience for being "the unreasonable one," for sharing and encouraging the truth about how people actually build wealth, is waning.

We, as entrepreneurs, are supposed to be unreasonable. Being reasonable is to be accepting of the status quo. I’m concerned my actual entrepreneurial ambition has expired here. I find that to be a shame.

I relate to this POV also and see where you are coming from. Back when I first joined the forum there were a lot of "going for millions" treads and there was a strong entrepreneurial vibe for sure.

Which has dropped off.

But then the question becomes... what does the forum do about it? And how much can be done?

Pretty much every younger guy I know these days who is crushing it has a "head down" mentality. They are in general low key and don't post too much on social or online in general. The idea of documenting on a forum is maybe not that appealing.

This might just be the next generation coming up who has to weight up the pros versus cons of sharing online.
Cancel culture, communism mindsets, hate mobs, mass outrage and so on.

Back ten years ago this was not the case. Forums were the place for connecting with like minded people and shooting the sh*t. But nowadays a lot of that is done behind closed doors in tight circles or private groups.

So there is a cultural shift here. And the nonsense of the last few years has probably accelerated it. Look at Mr Beast and the reaction to his recent eye surgery video - the top 1% achieving dudes are massive targets.

If I had to guess why some of the younger guys on here who have absolutely crushed it don't post more often - it would be this. It is a risk versus rewards equation and as much as they love the forum its hard to be documenting the journey regularly.

To me this means either two things:

- Someone goes out and interviews BIG Fastlane style people and puts that content front and center on the forum to set the vibe. Basically a massive pump of fresh Fastlane blood and inspiration.

- And/or a private or elite part of the forum for top members to connect with (and for new members to aim for).

But... this requires a ton of work from MJ and I don't think it is reasonable to expect him to do anymore for free.
So things are at a bit of a stalemate in that direction.

The thing with the freelancing is that it is what is left in the vacuum. If the new freelancer folk had the inspiration and guidance to keep progressing on to bigger things, then it wouldn't be an issue.

*If* I ran the forum this is probably what I would do.

- Weekly free interviews from top outside Fastlane style people posted up on the forum

- INSIDERS group at $XXX per month where people can jump on calls and network etc. The price tag would be to maintain the rest of the forum and ensure an excellent INSIDERS service with lots of activity.

But, MJ is a saint to run this forum for years the way he has and managing those ideas would be nearly a fulltime job.

@Kak, these are just my own ideas. I am curious what you could see being done also.

 

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[BizyDad]

I want to challenge them to find a single copywriter that went on to start a successful multimillion dollar unrelated company.

This anti-copywriting/anti-freelancing rant is tired.

And this quote in particular is lazy thinking. There are numerous "Google-able" examples. It's nice of you to throw out an appeal to ignorance and argue against it. Since you only need one, Joe Sugarman. He built several. His last that I know of happened at age 86 I believe, which is pretty cool.

When you can use the printed word to sell just about anything, what exactly does unrelated mean?

At least those who start down these copywriting / freelancing paths are trying something. You really think flipping burgers is a better starting place? Really? Really really?

But ya - it would be cool to see much more BIG fastlane threads.
Freelancers (and everyone else) need to see what is possible with thinking big.

Forgive my ignorance (and my repeated use of this word).

But can't a category be created called "BIG fastlane threads" and move/promote threads into that category? This category can then be featured in various places on the forum.

Just a thought that I think wouldn't take 100's of hours. But again, I am speaking out of ignorance as I don't know the forum software.

Does @BizyDad think I'm incredibly good-looking? Yes.

Well, did you?

The point of this thread is to put on high display some alternative, and higher probability, starts that show it can be done. You don’t have to be a freelancer first or forever.

Be a doctor or go into real estate. Data shows those are the paths with the most entrepreneurial millionaires (research I did years ago. This was based on American data.) To be clear, I don't mean being a surgeon or family doctor forever. I mean Doctor's often founded high earning companies after they get their degree and work in the industry for a time. Doctors also have a higher degree of patents than most other professions. (It wasn't the highest, I tried to find what was and couldn't).

Now that we know the higher probability paths, can we agree the forum wouldn't be any better for being chock full of aspiring RE investor or aspiring doctorprenuer threads?

People are going to start wherever they start, however they start. Your first ventures didn't show the "Think bigger" methodology. You had to grow into it. Kudos to you for doing it.

But not everyone gets to be @Ravens_Shadow and even Ravens_Shadow didn't know his company could grow so large when he first started it.

He was just trying to solve a problem...

So what are we talking about here? Inspiring more Johnny_boys and @Juan Pimentel? Get people to start in home services? More GPM cryptopeeps? Do we want to highlight more Africans like @KnockTheHustle? Guys like @Kokaka and @AmazingLarry and @Carlitos and @MrTrash757 have some of my favorite progress threads and don't get nearly the recognition or attention they deserve.

And while marketing agencies get a bad wrap, guys like GuitarManDan and @Pat D. Rick have their threads going and growing. I know I'm missing several in this category that I like, but I'm tired and not totally with it right now.

I do wish I knew of more ecom based threads, but those seem to be dormant. Maybe someone else can post what I've missed.

Does that help the goal of the thread?

It is one thing crap on an entire industry over and over and over. It is entirely another to highlight those who are grinding out their own success stories. One makes the forum stronger, the other doesn't.

What are your current favorite progress threads @Kak?

Does anyone else feel like someone deserves a shout out?

 

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[NeoDialectic]

Thank you for this.


How is advice good for big businesses inconsistent with what this forum should stand for as a whole?
The issue I still have is that there are more young adults here getting the wrong impression. Meaning (and I am glad @BizyDad agreed already that we aren't far apart) for most people copywriting is a bad F*cking idea. For the 1% that should do it, there are plenty of resources here already.

This leads me to my question back to you. You say "no one acted on my advice" but if it was right advice, why does that matter? Why would you lower your bar, your standards? Is it to ensure you convince one more person to just quit their job? What's the end game for them if they can't even listen to an experienced person with "right" advice (however you define it)?



Isn't now this mental gymnastics to justify lowering your own standards?
I read it as "sorry brother, I was going to tell you what to do but I think you are not going to listen. Instead of giving you everything I know, I'll dumb it down to ensure you at least do something because let's face it, you are an idiot like the rest of them who just won't listen". Did I get that right?

Sounds horrible. And worst of all - what is "effective" about your watered down advice?



Your intent is good, your words are saying "the right things" and we disagree. I don't see the distinction between what is good advice and advice they will follow. With my posts, I assume it is on the reader to be motivated to do something already. I assume that just because you are 20 doesn't mean you are a moron who need ME to decide what advice YOU are going to follow and start watering down my help.



I like where you are going with this. As it highlights how you and I think differently.
This is a forum based on massively successful books attracting self-driven and hungry people. So when you say "first group of people are rare and aren't coming on here asking if they should pick up copywriting" I disagree. I'd like to think that it takes self-drive and hunger to read books and then join this place. Otherwise isn't this just a damn reddit?



If you are right about that... it's sad. You are giving no benefit of doubt to the younger generation and if you are right, it is sad.



I'll come back to that later. Suffice to say that no one here is telling an unmotivated, dependent, no experience 20 y/o to start a billion dollar enterprise.



Seems like with @BizyDad we aren't as far apart, the differences are nuanced. Your view is that it is up to YOU to make that distinction. YOU are the judge on what advice someone will or will not follow. That is a problem.

But we all agree that life is a roller-coaster. Success is a string of good decisions moving you forward. It starts small and like snowball, you get better and your abilities get bigger etc. It is not up to me to judge who will follow good advice and lower my own "advice standards" for those who I think won't.

And that's the crux of this. You keep referencing "I give a lot of advice" and you now have a feedback loop as a consultant/coach for people. I am just a business guy. I try to help, sometimes here, other times when volunteer etc. But I don't have the follow up and I may be wrong. But that's kind of my thing, I am not after trying to get 99% to convert from future / present employee to a freelancer.

I am after the 1% who'd get there anyway but needs good advice to get there faster.



I guess we agree on some things but on the biggest item, in a big picture we disagree and that's ok. That's probably what makes this thread valuable. A lively debate.

Agree:
- all of us had a roller coaster ride before any semblance of success
- due to this up & down, action > inaction
- some people, no matter what you tell them, will do F*ck all
- success is cumulative, actionable steps

Disagree:
- motivation is not rare. we are all motivated and if someone isn't - you aren't succeeding in freelance nor any business (big or small). I am not the one to judge and water down my advice because I think someone won't follow my best advice.
- giving advice "think bigger" isn't bad, brother, it's a great advice. Seriously. Imagine your exit number, say it's $50MM and give yourself 10 years to get there. Then cut that time in 10 and I promise you two things:
1. You won't hit it in one year
2. You will discover things, ways and ideas that will make you hit that $50MM number way, way sooner.
Conclusion: thinking bigger is good! Don't be a F*cking idiot either, and know the difference between pie in the sky dreaming and reality. But use tools at your disposal to propel yourself. It widens your field of options way outside your typical comfort zone. Whether you are starting out or have a mid level business, this exercise is helpful.

This is a forum for people who must be at least partly committed to becoming thriving entrepreneurs. Have faith in them.

So... where does that leave us?

I stand behind my advice:

Tinker, experiment, listen to the feedback. Come up with 100 ideas on how you could make some money. DO NOT narrow your vision to "I must have an internet business" and get saddled with being a "copywriter" making no money. There is a world of opportunities out there. I can't walk a mile in any city without seeing something that could make money. And if you are still stuck, let's talk here and brainstorm.



The reason I keep telling people not to become copywriters is because I personally hired a few of them in 2022. It's become a "promise land of opportunity" but in fact is a horrible idea preventing young people from using their creativity to generate better ideas. This thread accomplishes my goal perfectly, it makes people pause and think.

And as a next step, 100% agree with you, we need to shift conversation back into gear. Focus on what to do, how to do it better.

This is a good example:
How to start an entrepreneurial business with little money and no skills

I'm not sure how the miscommunication happened, but no one is suggesting telling people that they can't do something or that they should give up. If they ask for advice on how to start a business, I give them advice on starting a business. You are viewing my definition of "giving as close to the right advice as they will act on" as being, "I could have told you to go build a business, but since you look like a chump, you should just go freelance." That is not at all what I meant.

Even @Fox (who as you said has incentives to be pro-freelance) has often clarified that he is not suggesting that anyone STOPS at freelancing. It may be the end result for some, but it can be an important stepping stone for others.

What I am actually suggesting is that the advice meets them where they are RIGHT NOW. A metaphor - If we advise people on how to get to NYC, I think giving them the coordinates and a pat on the back is ineffective. When I say we agree on the "right" advice, I mean that we agree on NYC's coordinates. But I think people starting in LA or MIA need two different pieces of advice to get them closer to NYC. Giving them a direction and coordinates ain't going to cut it if they haven't learned the skills of using a map. They end up hitting the first wall and quitting.

To drive the point home... Here is a recent piece of advice I provided. Someone asked which item they should start drop shipping. The essence of my reply is to forget dropshipping and make your own product. That's me literally saying they should THINK BIGGER, as you would say. I don't think that was a good response. I didn't have my "best advice" hat on, and @BizyDad caught it. I should have said, "If you have never sold anything before and are excited to try it out, go ahead and try dropshipping. Just keep in mind that it has a lot of limitations, and you should aim to sell your own custom products as soon as possible. Don't waste time running in circles, though. Do your due diligence as quickly as you can and pull the trigger. Get moving.".

Here is my advice for someone wanting to start a web design company where my advice can be viewed as THINK SMALLER. I see someone that is focused on all the sexy big steps of creating a business, getting dopamine by completing those, and then quitting when the most important part comes up. My advice to him is to stop wasting time and overwhelming himself with all the aspects of building a business and just start selling his service ASAP. Get a client and start making a website. Is my advice selling him short and giving him no benefit of the doubt? Should I have told him to stop thinking so small and he should instead hire 20 designers right away to make a big web design hub? Or am I recognizing a pattern and giving him a roadmap with a higher chance of success?

On the other hand, Here is someone that has clients and is having trouble scaling. I think I give him decent advice on his options and press him to THINK BIGGER by promising more aggressively and working as hard as he can to meet those promises. Same genre (freelance type work)... But different situation = different advice.

I know you have seen a lot of my threads. Admittedly, I don't have the experience of running as big of a business (employee and investment-wise) as you, which limits some of the advice I could give. Still, I don't think I give off a "don't open a business, freelance instead" vibe. All my main threads are on either providing motivation, a sense of urgency, the tools, or the literal step-by-step on creating your own business. But if someone comes here with zero skills & experience and wants to try web design.....instead of shaming them, I try to tell them it's a decent start to get some skills and learn how to sell. But they shouldn't think it is fastlane and should be a means to an end.

Does that clarify my position?

 

[Lex DeVille]

The argument in favor of freelancing boils down to:
It doesn't matter where you start, just go toward the outcome you want.

The argument against freelancing boils down to:
Take the most sensible path toward the outcome you want.

These are not opposing ideas and they both begin with the outcome in mind.

Some deeper questions to reflect on could be:
What outcome do I want? Is this path likely to get me there as soon as possible?

A few questions to help in determining that:

• What outcome do I want?
• What are my personal values?
• Can the path I'm considering get me there at all?
• How else could I get there?
• Which path is most likely to get me there?
• Which path will most likely get me there fastest?
• Which path seems riskier?
• Based on the outcome I want, my personal values, and what I know and/or believe about the available paths, which path do I choose?

After Choosing:

• #ZeroFucksGiven, YOLO, anyone who questions my choice GFYS
• Here's my documented progress in case you want to follow
• Where am I now, what's changed?
• Am I still moving toward the outcomes I want or should I reassess?

 

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[JAJT]

Are folks generally advocating copywriting as an actual business idea?

I've always seen it recommended as a side hustle or short term income stream (instead of a typical job), but very rarely do I see folks advocating for it as an actual business.

I've done freelance copywriting myself here and there and while I personally think I'm pretty good at it, and it certainly worked as an income stop-gap, I'd never actually advocate it as a business idea.

Years ago when I was doing it, I could make about $120 USD for roughly 3 hours of work doing copy and keyword research for product pages (amazon, websites, etc). If I was unemployed and had to pick between a min-wage burger flipping type job, or a $40 per hour copywriting hustle, I'd pick the hustle every time. Especially since it's not terribly hard to get higher paying gigs, repeat business, etc. It's VERY easy to make sustainable and self-sourced income with it.

But I agree - it's not a business. It has a linear earning potential where hours in equals income out. 1:1. It's the exact definition of a job.

 

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[Antifragile]

"I have no money and no skills" posts

the solution to "no money & no skills" isn't to try to sell skills you don't have. Just pointing that out. That's my main issue with all those posts.

In real life, I get hit up by copywriters. I gave a few of them a try. They sucked. I should't have been surprised. But here we are...

If you have no skills - work on getting skills, not trying to make bank. Get creative on how to make money from employment too. If "Burger king" is your only option, you aren't creative enough.

Example? A kid reached out to cold on LinkedIn. Asking for advice on how to get started in our industry. Sent me his resume. At the right time... I gave feedback, he scored a job. Foot in the door. Fast forward a year later... he's interviewing with my VP Dev for a six figure job. Sure, it's a job and you all hate that and would rather focus on the "internet business". But that's my point, there are thousands of ways to become an entrepreneur.

 

[Lex DeVille]

@Kak I think you have a good point, and mean well for those you're offering advice. To preface, I'm not involved in copywriting. However, you might be overselling the doom and gloom of a freelance or copywriting path, for beginners.

We can all agree these things aren't "entrepreneurship," in the actual sense, but it's one step in the right direction.
You've said, "you’re a unskilled idiot until you’re not," a few times, but also contradicted that a few times.

If someone who writes like a 12-year old can't make $100/hr copywriting (like you said), what stops them from acquiring the skill to do so? They're an unskilled idiot, until they're not, right? I started learning Spanish in my early 30s, and can now have conversations in Spanish. In that same way, the non-native English speaker, who writes like a 12-year old can sharpen his command of the language.

You make it sound as though copywriting/freelancing is an entrepreneurial death sentence. Like if they engaged it at the onset of their journey, they've somehow excluded themselves from any future business success. You go on to challenge people to name any former copywriter who has succeeded in the business world. I'm not sure how you arrived at this assertion, but I find it odd. It's nearly like saying "show me someone who held a 9-5 and later succeeded in an unrelated business."

If anything, an independent copywriter or freelancer is closer to being an entrepreneur/business owner than a 9-5er. These people offer a service, manage client acquisition, offer customer service, issue quotes, invoices etc. Again, while these aren't "entrepreneurs," in the ideal sense, they're executing the same self-driven processes required for true entrepreneurship.

Combine that with an ability to earn an income doing so, I'd say it's decent practice for the real deal. Whether they fail in business or succeed in other fields depends on their own individual business ideas and its execution. Their failure would have little or nothing to do with their start as a copywriter or freelancer.

Once again, I think you mean well, and it's a mostly valid point, it might just be oversold.

I no longer view freelancing or copywriting as a step in the right direction for entrepreneurship.

What almost always happens is people start freelancing, but can't get it off the ground, so they either keep freelancing indefinitely for side cash or they quit. When I talk to them years later, they're back in a job or doing nothing.

The people who succeed with freelancing were always going to succeed regardless of where they started. So they might as well spend their time taking swings at business rather than learning a skill to sell so they can eventually have enough money someday to take swings at business.

Learning copywriting was good for me, but I think success would've come faster if I never started freelancing. That said, I didn't get my start in freelancing, and I was always going to succeed...

For most people, freelancing is a huge time suck with little payoff. They're constantly prospecting for clients, not getting responses from clients, can't figure out what they're doing wrong, lack problem-solving skills so they can't overcome their limitations. Even when they do get clients, they make low pay, earn just enough to get by (but usually not even that much) and end up giving most of their time to clients. They spend the rest of their time trying to get more clients.

Forget learning copywriting, freelancing with ANY skill is a time suck that doesn't pay off for most people. And that's when they're using Upwork which practically hands you clients on a platter.

That's what I've seen.

 

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[NeoDialectic]

You think I’m trying to shit on people. I’m not. I’m trying to help them see alternatives and understand that they don’t have to settle. Make no mistake that’s what this is.

This forum was founded on principles that form a solid business. CENTS. We used to take no prisoners with MLM crap and affiliate marketing.

CENTS is totally ignored now. It’s not an objective measurement any longer. Now it’s all about “feelings.”

Again I say, you’re a unskilled idiot until you’re not. I’m helping people out of that problem not helping them wallow in it.

So berate me all you want, you of all people know deep down where my heart is on this.

I understand your and @Antifragile point of view, but I think you guys may be having difficulty empathising with those that aren't wired the same way as you. Not only that, but not everyone has the same values or end goals.

I may agree with alot of what you espouse, but no matter how technically "correct" your advice is; For those that aren't as driven as you, it just sounds like your screaming from an ivory tower.

Advice like "have you ever sold anything online or worked for yourself" is meant to meet people where they are at.

To give an example outside our field....Smokers know that they just have to quit. Duh. You aren't uncovering some deep lost knowledge on them if you told them that. It's just a choice bruh. Just stop..... For some people that even works. But for many people, finally quitting involved a much more turbulent path that involves alot of trial/error, baby steps and bite sized chunks. You clean your room one paper at a time.

 

[BrunoRastablasta]

I'm not from a Romanian village, but a Bosnian city which is pretty much the same.
Been working as a freelance content writer (copywriting is way harder) for the past 7 years.

I'm only making $70k a year and just this year, I started to build a real business (nonfiction business book summaries). But the majority of people here earn $10k a year and because of my freelancing, I managed to buy an apartment, get married, and live in the top 3% of people in my country. So it's a viable start and end point for many people here and in other third-world countries.

On the other hand, I'm a greedy motherfcker who started all of this shit so I don't have to trade time for money. So I'll continue working on my business until it's no longer required to trade time for money.

Freelancing can be a good starting point, but you have to remember that "what you got you here, won't you get there."

my2cents

 

[MJ DeMarco]

It's easy to have a hindsight bias and say "Boy, those lawns I mowed when I was 18 was a mistake, that's not Fastlane!"

Speaking of mistakes... if you truly want to make a big mistake for your first entrepreneurial action, join an MLM.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

but there’s never been less of a desire from members here to even achieve a millionaire status

Sorry, but you can thank culture for that. The "FIRE" mentality of do nothing, buy nothing, and own nothing is being sold to everyone nowadays. That mentality is a close sibling to minimalism and "lowering your carbon footprint." TIME is the new king, and people are willing to go to extremes to own their TIME, to the point of eating bugs, living in 30 year old RVs, and contributing nothing to the economy other than being feeder-funds for Wall Street.

There are people who live like homeless beggars who are selling their lifestyle under the guise of "financial freedom."

Sadly, most people no longer care about any type of real financial freedom (the type that involves any type of luxury or extravagance) and now they're being brainwashed into believing corporations are evil -- instead, they want to lounge on a damn beach while waiting for their index-fund portfolio to make them rich, all while tweaking their excel spreadsheets.

To me, the disconnect is the idea that the skills learned by freelancing wouldn't also be learned by not freelancing just as quickly and more efficiently while pursuing bigger goals.

The word "freelancing" perhaps needs a concrete definition. It could mean anything.

For me freelancing means a side hustle that is created by your own ingenuity and grind. Door knocking, cold calling, and good old fashion grit.

For me freelancing is NOT signing up for an Upwork account where you can pimp your services for the cheapest price. In that case, freelancing sucks and I would not advise it. Not for anyone here, and not for my step-son.

 

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