The definitive guide for MFG/QC issues and what you ecommerce sourcers and inventors must know

[TKDTyler]

Damn @Arun Siva! I just caught up with this thread and wished we got to talk a lot more at the summit! Pure gold here learned only through experience! New importers that read through this are going to cut their problems in half before they even begin.

Rep++

 

[Niptuck MD]

Thanks - appreciate it!

You also want to make sure that as your business grows, they will continue to work with you maybe not in pricing but in other facets (think incoterms even maybe instead of FOB you can get them to DAT if your negotiations are apt.)

EXW : EX WORKS, named place of delivery. The seller makes the goods available at its premises. This term places the maximum obligation on the buyer and minimum obligations on the seller. The Ex Works term is often used when making an initial quotation for the sale of goods without any costs included. EXW means that a seller has the goods ready for collection at his premises (works, factory, warehouse, plant) on the date agreed upon.The seller doesn't load the goods on collecting vehicles and doesn't clear them for export. If the seller does load the good, he does so at buyer's risk and cost.

FCA : FREE CARRIER, named place of delivery. The seller hands over the goods, cleared for export, into the disposal of the first carrier (named by the buyer) at the named place. The seller pays for carriage to the named point of delivery, and risk passes when the goods are handed over to the first carrier.

FAS : FREE ALONG SIDE SHIP, named port of shipment. The seller must place the goods alongside the ship at the named port. The seller must clear the goods for export. Suitable only for maritime transport but not for multimodal sea transport in containers.

FOB : FREE ON BOARD,named port of shipment. The seller must load themselves the goods on board the vessel nominated by the buyer. Cost and risk are divided when the goods are actually on board of the vessel. The seller must clear the goods for export. The term is applicable for maritime and inland waterway transport only but not for multimodal sea transport in containers. The buyer must instruct the seller the details of the vessel and the port where the goods are to be loaded, and there is no reference to, or provision for, the use of a carrier or forwarder.

CFR : COST AND FREIGHT, named port of destination. Seller must pay the costs and freight to bring the goods to the port of destination. However, risk is transferred to the buyer once the goods are loaded on the vessel (this rule is new!). Maritime transport only and Insurance for the goods is not included.


CIF: COST, INSURANCE AND FREIGHT, named port of destination. Exactly the same as CFR except that the seller must in addition procure and pay for the insurance. Maritime transport only.

CPT : CARRIAGE PAID TO, named place of destination. The seller pays for carriage. Risk transfers to buyer upon handing goods over to the first carrier.

CIP : CARRIAGE AND INSURANCE PAID TO, named place of destination). The containerized transport/multimodal equivalent of CIF. Seller pays for carriage and insurance to the named destination point, but risk passes when the goods are handed over to the first carrier.

DAT : DELIVERED AT TERMINAL, named terminal at port or place of destination). Seller pays for carriage to the terminal, except for costs related to import clearance, and assumes all risks up to the point that the goods are unloaded at the terminal.

DAP : DELIVERED AT PLACE, named place of destination. Seller pays for carriage to the named place, except for costs related to import clearance, and assumes all risks prior to the point that the goods are ready for unloading by the buyer.

DDP : DELIVERED DUTY PAID, named place of destination. Seller is responsible for delivering the goods to the named place in the country of the buyer, and pays all costs in bringing the goods to the destination including import duties and taxes. This term places the maximum obligations on the seller and minimum obligations on the buyer.

 

[Niptuck MD]

Here is a good video for people to get an in depth overall understanding on PIM. From an engineering perspective.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMjtmsr3CqA



I am contemplating doing a series of videos on quality analysis and what to look for but was wondering what people thought about it firsthand. I am sure it would be of great help for sourcers and manufacturers in general.

 

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[SteveO]

Im glad that you all got to meet me

Love it!

 

[amp0193]

”Is the supplier able to make the product I need ALL THE TIME?”
To be able to make your product consistently CONSISTENT, a supplier should have the following:

-Clear and adapted production processes, including a good industrialization process, clear work instructions to workers, a reliable document and version management system (plant information management system PIMS), and a foolproof system to select components and material used to make the final product;

-Solid quality control processes, including regular incoming goods (RM or raw materials) inspections, in production quality control at various steps of the fabrication process, reliable rejected parts system (SCRAP and SR or Scrap Rate), final goods and packaged goods inspections

-Systematic data collection and storage, for instance to allow problem root cause analysis in case product displays failure after shipment.

This is harder to really evaluate. All Chinese supplier will know what you want to hear and they will know what to answer to you when you ask about process.

Ultimately the only way to get reliable information is to see evidence of the process on the shop floor (in person on via webcam)

I know next to nothing about manufacturing processes, although I've made it a point to educate myself, since talking to you.

Is there a 3rd party that could inspect the QC processes of my factory? What would this type of service be called?


Also, about raw materials:

How do I know if the factory is consistently using the same raw materials? Or that the material is even what it claims to be? Say 1020 steel as an example.

Do I need an inspection company to examine the steel stock prior to manufacturing?

Do I need to do this before every order?


I had a recent failure that was either due to inferior material, or a poor weld. I'm going to have a local welder teach me this week quality vs. poor welding, but as far as material goes... I have no idea.


Are there inspectors that could correctly identify a high-quality weld? This seems like something I need to have checked every time.

 

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[Niptuck MD]

With the Chinese New Year (CNY) passing, a lot of you ecommerce sourcers may have been struggling with communication and or production of your goods to be sourced from overseas on time. Here is something to consider.....

Westerners return from their Christmas holiday
The buyers come back after the Christmas and then the New Year rolls around and they’re fired up. They’re ready to get some quotes going. Hoping they can get 1 more project order in before the factory closes.

They soon find that not only is it next to damn near impossible to get any project really going. Just getting a quote is like pulling teeth. However they fail to neglect if their existing orders made it out to the ships.....

Experienced importers tend to find themselves not remembering how long the “toil” lasts.

“Timing” before the Chinese New Year

Keep in mind that timing is more theoretical than something that’s a solid actualization but nonetheless,

• your sales contract may not actually know when an order can get on the production line. They just know it’s not going to be until after the holiday.
• Keep in mind that even prior to Christmas, factories already confirm that nothing’s able to ship prior to their anticipated break. Yes, yes, I know you’re reading this waaay after Christmas and I should’ve written this post earlier. Bookmark this to read it next early November.
• And when it comes to samples started in January, don’t be surprised if the piece arrives wrong or the factory isn’t able to complete prior to the holiday. Around the holiday, the factory will say that they didn’t have their normal sampling line set up because the workers went home. Or they will promise to do a better version, 20 to 25 days from now…

When it comes to timing in your RFQ’s before the Lunar New Year…

• Again, with a focus on this “timing”, realize the quote’s lead time is fluid. I mean fluid in a bad way. If the quote says they can ship March 15th, that may actually be April 10th.

Let your buyers, or whomever you serve know about this!
That quotes from Dec to Jan need a new timing confirmation as soon as the holiday is over.

Here’s an example. Let’s say you plan to make a deposit on an order right after the New Year. You have thesupplier’s invoice and sampling is already signed-off. The invoice states that mass production takes 25 days.

Ok but that is 25 days starting on what day?

And how do you know they’ll be able to indeed start that day?

And if they do start, are you sure there’s not more customers jockeying their order for position? And yours doesn’t get bumped??

Don’t build solid hopes on a timing quoted during this “period of uncertainty”. Be extremely aware to follow-up on timing, as soon as the holiday is winding down.

Be a squeaky wheel if needed so that suppliers will prioritize you over others. It’s a damn jungle over there.....

Don’t wait to get a “bad news” email when it’s too late.

Timing also comes into play with logistics
For the logistics, this is where crowded orders, pre-holiday rush and bottle-neck ports all meet. Last year, we almost had a stranded order, but were able to rebook it out of an obscure port. All because of the New Year, the main ports were no longer accepting shipments.

During this time period, be vigilant on logistics. If something’s supposed to depart factory on Jan 18th and catch the next sailing date on Jan 22nd, missing a closing date can lead to more than 2 weeks delay.

Check it and check it again. Be sure the supplier is in close communication with the freight forwarder on their side

Work to assure you or your vendor book the spacing in advance

After the New Year…
Once the holiday officially ends, don’t expect the factory and your sales contact to come back swifter than a roe deer.

• Your sales contact may return earlier than the factory workers.
• The factory may be open 1 week to 10 days before actual production or fruitful work commences. This doesn’t mean they’ll immediately start on your case.
• Remember to reconfirm all preconfirmed timing discussion immediately when your sales contact returns to office

 

[nitroheadz28]

Arun, its Tom from the cigar lounge and early Saturday morning outside the Cantina (Pre IHOP run with James, Tyler & Dave haha). First off, it was such a pleasure being able to talk to you for as long as we did. Your story is one for the books, and your experience is second to none. You really have created something special in this thread, I'm not sure why it hasn't gotten the attention it deserves but it is pure gold. You're the truth my man, I look forward to our paths crossing again!!

An immature quality system
The biggest risk is that they show their inability to manufacture at the right quality standard. Good communication and development skills DO NOT correlate with good manufacturing skills.

The worst situation goes something like this:

• The buyer does no inspection in the factory before shipment,
• The factory sends a few well-chosen samples taken out of production, which reassures the buyer,
• Upon arrival, the buyer finds that most products are defective,
• All the supplier offers is a discount on the next order, as well as profuse/redundant apologies (or excuses),
• The second shipment is bad too (there is an 80% chance that the second shipment is no better than the first one).

Why does this happen? Here are the main reasons:

• The customer did not audit the supplier’s manufacturing facilities,
• The customer did not send any inspector to check product quality,
• After the complaints, the factory sees this customer as a troublesome customer who actually cares about quality (and who might leave at any time),
• The discount means factory managers don’t care about the second order (no profit, no attention).

So I found myself nodding along throughout the entire thread, what I quoted is an alarmingly similar painful experience I went through that I don't wish on anybody repeating here. Here are the consequences of my actions in a scenario that took place in 2017 so anyone reading this understands how these situations unfold:

1. Multiple manufacturers email me after taking notice of my level of performance on Amazon offering me the same or better quality as my current supplier, cheaper pricing, and faster lead/ shipping times.

2. (11/7/2016)- I say screw it and give one of them a chance, at this point I've been having my widgets manufactured by the same supplier for over 3 years and have never had a backup supplier. This new supplier demonstrates an eagerness and flexibility that I'd never experienced before in my days of sourcing from China.

3. (11/23/2016)- I receive free samples promptly, complete with a heartfelt note showing their eagerness to form a fruitful partnership. The samples look good, we Skype/ email back and forth working on changes I'd like to have made to the original mold. They are so eager to work with me that they offer new tooling free of charge and create a new mold for my new & improved widgets.

4. (12/25/2016)- Terms and product specs are nailed down, pricing has been negotiated and a 30% deposit is put down for a small 300 unit test order. I was firm with having them use Paypal, which I also used my business credit card to pay with. I am promised that the cargo will be on it's way before CNY.

5. (1/12/2017)- Supplier emails me with the balance invoice, letting me know that only 2 of the 3 variations will be completed before CNY. Apparently their material supplier couldn't deliver on time to complete SKU #3. Pics are sent, things look good. I send funds over and instruct them to send part of the order to me (Less than 25% in total quantity).

6. (1/25/2017)- No tracking updates, I send an email and don't hear anything back until 2/13/17. The shipment had just arrived a couple days prior. Of course I get a bunch of sorry's and the blame gets passed onto UPS.

7. (2/26/2017)- I request the remaining amount they have finished for SKUs #1 & 2. Variation #3 still not finished.

8. (3/14/2017)- I receive the remaining units for variations #1 & 2 with the following issues upon inspection: Polybag printing is shit/ most of the ink had worn off in transit, stitching is the wrong color on #1, main color is off on #1 and different from samples. Overall finish is low quality, to the point where they are borderline unsellable under my brand on Amazon (I have a premium tier product line).

9. (3/23/2017)- After having gone back and forth about the errors, I get nowhere. They offer me a bunch of spare polybags and 9 extra units of one of the SKUs (Lol). SKU #3 is ready, at this point I'm in the process of moving to San Diego from NYC. I instruct them to ship to a new address making sure its in bold and bright blue color.

10. (4/20/2017)- Multiple emails sent, and no tracking number is given with BS excuses until this date. (Turns out the shipment was never actually shipped until around this time).

11. (5/9/2017)- I receive a phone call learning my cargo is sitting at my previous address across the country. Supplier gives me a bunch of "I'm sorry, I will fix it".

12. (6/15/2017)- Communication has been sketchy with a lot of back and forth. I finally get a wall of text with them placing the blame on literally everything else under the sun.

13. (8/25/2017)- I recover the 100 units of SKU #3 finally, inspect them and quality is slightly worse than the initial #1 & 2 SKUs with obvious defects and sloppy finish.

14. (9/14/2017)- More back and forth, less excuses and more of them not giving a shit anymore. I subsequently open up a claim against them and get a chargeback going.

Its now 2/22/18 and the case is still ongoing. My bank (Capital One) royally screwed me with the evidence I'd uploaded backing my claims and reversed the chargeback against me alleging they'd never received my supporting documentation through their online portal. I'm still fighting this and awaiting a decision from Visa, needless to say I'll be closing my accounts with them as I've generally been unsatisfied outside of this situation.

There you go, a lesson in what NOT to do. Hopefully someone reads this and takes something away from it. It'll save you thousands of dollars and quite a bit of headache, thankfully the order I placed was fairly small and its only a question of about 5 grand so not a huge deal to me. Still, 5k is 5k...

 

[Niptuck MD]

Arun, its Tom from the cigar lounge and early Saturday morning outside the Cantina (Pre IHOP run with James, Tyler & Dave haha). First off, it was such a pleasure being able to talk to you for as long as we did. Your story is one for the books, and your experience is second to none. You really have created something special in this thread, I'm not sure why it hasn't gotten the attention it deserves but it is pure gold. You're the truth my man, I look forward to our paths crossing again!!



So I found myself nodding along throughout the entire thread, what I quoted is an alarmingly similar painful experience I went through that I don't wish on anybody repeating here. Here are the consequences of my actions in a scenario that took place in 2017 so anyone reading this understands how these situations unfold:

1. Multiple manufacturers email me after taking notice of my level of performance on Amazon offering me the same or better quality as my current supplier, cheaper pricing, and faster lead/ shipping times.

2. (11/7/2016)- I say screw it and give one of them a chance, at this point I've been having my widgets manufactured by the same supplier for over 3 years and have never had a backup supplier. This new supplier demonstrates an eagerness and flexibility that I'd never experienced before in my days of sourcing from China.

3. (11/23/2016)- I receive free samples promptly, complete with a heartfelt note showing their eagerness to form a fruitful partnership. The samples look good, we Skype/ email back and forth working on changes I'd like to have made to the original mold. They are so eager to work with me that they offer new tooling free of charge and create a new mold for my new & improved widgets.

4. (12/25/2016)- Terms and product specs are nailed down, pricing has been negotiated and a 30% deposit is put down for a small 300 unit test order. I was firm with having them use Paypal, which I also used my business credit card to pay with. I am promised that the cargo will be on it's way before CNY.

5. (1/12/2017)- Supplier emails me with the balance invoice, letting me know that only 2 of the 3 variations will be completed before CNY. Apparently their material supplier couldn't deliver on time to complete SKU #3. Pics are sent, things look good. I send funds over and instruct them to send part of the order to me (Less than 25% in total quantity).

6. (1/25/2017)- No tracking updates, I send an email and don't hear anything back until 2/13/17. The shipment had just arrived a couple days prior. Of course I get a bunch of sorry's and the blame gets passed onto UPS.

7. (2/26/2017)- I request the remaining amount they have finished for SKUs #1 & 2. Variation #3 still not finished.

8. (3/14/2017)- I receive the remaining units for variations #1 & 2 with the following issues upon inspection: Polybag printing is sh*t/ most of the ink had worn off in transit, stitching is the wrong color on #1, main color is off on #1 and different from samples. Overall finish is low quality, to the point where they are borderline unsellable under my brand on Amazon (I have a premium tier product line).

9. (3/23/2017)- After having gone back and forth about the errors, I get nowhere. They offer me a bunch of spare polybags and 9 extra units of one of the SKUs (Lol). SKU #3 is ready, at this point I'm in the process of moving to San Diego from NYC. I instruct them to ship to a new address making sure its in bold and bright blue color.

10. (4/20/2017)- Multiple emails sent, and no tracking number is given with BS excuses until this date. (Turns out the shipment was never actually shipped until around this time).

11. (5/9/2017)- I receive a phone call learning my cargo is sitting at my previous address across the country. Supplier gives me a bunch of "I'm sorry, I will fix it".

12. (6/15/2017)- Communication has been sketchy with a lot of back and forth. I finally get a wall of text with them placing the blame on literally everything else under the sun.

13. (8/25/2017)- I recover the 100 units of SKU #3 finally, inspect them and quality is slightly worse than the initial #1 & 2 SKUs with obvious defects and sloppy finish.

14. (9/14/2017)- More back and forth, less excuses and more of them not giving a sh*t anymore. I subsequently open up a claim against them and get a chargeback going.

Its now 2/22/18 and the case is still ongoing. My bank (Capital One) royally screwed me with the evidence I'd uploaded backing my claims and reversed the chargeback against me alleging they'd never received my supporting documentation through their online portal. I'm still fighting this and awaiting a decision from Visa, needless to say I'll be closing my accounts with them as I've generally been unsatisfied outside of this situation.

There you go, a lesson in what NOT to do. Hopefully someone reads this and takes something away from it. It'll save you thousands of dollars and quite a bit of headache, thankfully the order I placed was fairly small and its only a question of about 5 grand so not a huge deal to me. Still, 5k is 5k...

Hey Tom ,
What a story, albeit one of many I assume that ecom sourcers on here go through. I would like others to chime in and share their experiences as well. This is just more case studies (actualities) that people can refer to as an ongoing guide just to watch out for the varying degrees and angles of uncertainty and mishap due to miscommunication and misinterpretations. Hope capital one gets their shit together (one can hope right) so you can move onwards from this hurdle.

 

[Niptuck MD]

I came across this short article, and it got me thinking: https://www.chinalawblog.com/2010/09/if_you_are_a_retailer.html

although this is a bit outdated (2010) i believe one cannot go wrong with finding a suitable agency to help them with their operations (if they are not able to regularly go to the plant(s) themselves physically) however this is all dependent on the size/scope of your operation and your limitations/expectations.

looking at the article it quotes

"The best way for American importers/retailers to protect themselves from product liability risk is usually to have their Chinese manufacturers secure a U.S.-based product liability policy. These policies can typically be secured if the following three requirements are met. First, the Chinese manufacturer is reputable and has appropriate ISO certifications. Second, the Chinese manufacturer can show it consistently produces a quality product. Third, the Chinese manufacturer must be able to show a five+ year favorable loss record. The goal is to make the U.S. underwriters comfortable writing a policy for a Chinese manufacturer."

I would highly recommend contacting the folks at china caso (now ningbo caso international) they may be able to help (they may know of reputable insurers and agents) these guys are the best in the business in worldwide logistics and logistics consolidation (if you are sourcing several products from different regions in mainland china)

Ningbo CASO International Logistics Co.,Ltd. - 86-574-87868106 - Room 1203, Fortune Building A, Fuming Road #828, Jiangdong District -Jctrans

 

[Niptuck MD]

Here is an infographic to help novices with the realms of a quality inspection technique called RANDOM SAMPLING.

 

[Niptuck MD]

Sorry it’s been awhile been busy traveling.

Here is more pictorials to break down some useful quality tools and concepts. If anyone needs me to break down further or give specific examples regarding their respective businesses PM me.

 

[Niptuck MD]

1. Have you ever had an experience where mistakes were made in tooling which made them unusable? If so, how'd you deal with it?

2. Any experience working with overmolding? I'm currently doing this for a project of mine.

Thanks @SYK yes I have encountered many times where the root causation was the incorrect tooling and or machining process that was used to create XYZ product(s). Even despite the numerous verifications of whether or not the manufacturer (i know for one occasion it was a laser engraving operation and it was supposed to be done using a proper laser engraver that would be able to engrave various alloys, they used an engraving machine that was made for engraving trophies and soft metals!) So yes it has happened, but if you cover your bases and know exactly what you need and what you want versus what they have and what they are willing to do for you (within their realm) you will be okay.

In terms of plastic injection moulding yes out of curiosity is your product

Plastic over plastic, rubber over plastic, plastic over metals or rubber over metals?

 

[Niptuck MD]

Solid! You couldn't have posted this at a better time - I'm in the middle of sketching out a couple new products and a lot of these concepts I haven't taken into consideration yet (mostly DFA).

I wish there was a way to have gold posts. I wouldn't mind seeing a full presentation on the subject at the next summit that goes into better/personal details either...

Rep++

Lol tell them staff members to turn it gold

 

[amp0193]

I wouldn't mind seeing a full presentation on the subject at the next summit that goes into better/personal details either...

Second this. The crazy things you've experienced first hand to amass the knowledge have got to make for some good stories and a very interesting presentation.


Just downloaded the pdf... skimming it, it looks awesome. Gonna read through it this weekend. Thanks for the continued knowledge bombs @Arun Siva

 

[Niptuck MD]

For more manufacturing pointers here is one on machining parts for whatever you are designing.

Machinists’ Tips For Achieving Precision Small Metal Parts
At Metal Cutting, we like to say we can machine any part. And it is absolutely true that we have a team of experienced machinists who are highly skilled in using an array of CNC machining equipment to produce complex, precision metal components. The question always is, can we machine a part efficiently — in a way makes the part cost-effective both for our customers and for us? Below are some common issues to keep in mind when considering machining and its cost.


Avoiding “Back To The Drawing Board”
One of the challenges in CNC machining services is often not the process itself, but preparing to do the work — specifically, making sure machinist and design engineer are on the same page. As machinists, when we receive a drawing we look at it to determine, first of all, if the part can be made, then how it is going to be made and what attributes are important for the type of machine we’ll be using to make the part. Realistically, not everything that is on paper can be made on a machine, so it is helpful if engineers do some research before they do their drawings, to make sure their vision is in harmony with CNC machining capabilities and the equipment that their vendor (such as Metal Cutting) has available.

For example, a design engineer might provide a very thorough drawing, showing every step that needs to be done to produce a part. However, a closer look might reveal that not all of the steps can be accomplished using the same discipline; for instance, we may be able to do seven out of ten steps on a lathe, but two other steps would need to be done using EDM and a final step would require an additional process from an outside vendor. These added steps and a secondary process from a third-party vendor would all have an impact on cost.

More Steps May Be Needed
A common challenge in CNC machining — one that we handle every day here at Metal Cutting, where we specialize in very small precision components — is the deburring of parts that have extremely small attributes. A case in point is a part that appears to be the size of a pencil in a drawing but that in actuality, when you look at the specifications and scale, turns out to be the size of a pinhead. With a part having such small dimensions, it’s difficult to physically get into tiny spaces within the part; that is where the addition of a secondary process such as electropolishing would be necessary to ensure that the part is burr-free.

Sometimes, stumbling blocks appear when you least expect them. A good example is a high-pressure coolant fitting that one of our customers needed. Our Swiss-style automatic lathe was perfectly suited to the part — however, we lacked an extra tool for the back spindle. As a result, a secondary process was required to add the necessary threading. While it only added about 30 seconds (per part) to the entire operation, it would have been more efficient to complete the part in a single process, from solid bar stock to finished fitting.

Simple Features May Require Complex Machining
Of course, sometimes the little issues in CNC machining DO occur somewhere within the process itself. A good example is when we produced a part for a cathode ray tube — a project that required a lot of demanding ID work. It involved taking a solid piece of metal and machining it into a part that looked like two separate tubes joined at the center by a solid plate. The job required not only removing 98% of the mass of the part, but also drilling a burr-free center hole that would join the two asymmetrical ID cavities. This hole needed to have a 0.020” (0.5 mm) diameter but with a concentricity that referenced the overall OD datum to 0.0002″ (0.005 mm). While creating the hole — making sure it was dead center and the correct size — was challenging, once we figured out the best technique to use, it was not that difficult. Instead, the trickiest task was trying to bore out the major ID without breaking the tools or having the boring bars wear out.

Similarly, another project required us to take a solid and turn it into a very thin-walled tube with a scooped end. While tubes are so commonplace at Metal Cutting that we cut them every day, here the difficulty was holding the part while maintaining its roundness; not distorting the OD, with a tube wall only 0.0025” (0.0635 mm) thick; and deburring the part inside and out.

Material Matters
In CNC machining services, the choice of material is another critical consideration. For instance, we might look at a drawing and initially think it is a great part to machine, but on closer examination we might discover the engineer wants to make the part out of tungsten — a material that not everyone can machine well. Even for Metal Cutting, if the drawing specified using a CNC mill, lathe, or Swiss-style screw machine, it might be very challenging to finish the part exactly the way the customers wants it, making it more likely that the tungsten part should be ground rather than machined. Or, an engineer might specify making a small tube from a solid piece of 304 stainless steel — a very popular material known for its corrosion resistance, among other beneficial traits. However, SS304 is very tough and burrs don’t break off very easily; therefore, it might not be the best choice for a very small tube that needs a burr-free finish.

 

[Niptuck MD]

If anyone on the FLF INSIDERS need any help with manufacturing/quality control, design implementation and or other services regarding to manufacturing and implementation of your idea/product new product design, please feel free to reach out and PM me. I am available to analyze documents and to help with complex situations and scenarios if needbe.

 

[AllenCrawley]

@AllenCrawley @amp0193 @Vigilante @MJ DeMarco @Eskil can this thread be moved to the general public? thanks

Done! Thread tagged Notable!

 

[Niptuck MD]

Guys/Gals, here is a good document on GD&T (geometric dimensioning and tolerancing.) GD&T is a system for defining and communicating engineering tolerances. (from print to production)
It uses a symbolic language on engineering drawings and computer-generated three-dimensional solid models that explicitly describes nominal geometry and its allowable variation. May be of use for you prototypers

 

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[amp0193]

you communicate to them that you will not tolerate rusty components Period on any of your batches henceforth.

That's what I said. And I'll be checking every damn screw when I go there in a few weeks.

 

[Niptuck MD]

Is there a 3rd party that could inspect the QC processes of my factory? What would this type of service be called?

Bro if i had the time, I’d go to china myself and fix all of the problems! Not a bad idea haha

 

[Niptuck MD]

I had a recent failure that was either due to inferior material, or a poor weld. I'm going to have a local welder teach me this week quality vs. poor welding, but as far as material goes... I have no idea.


Are there inspectors that could correctly identify a high-quality weld? This seems like something I need to have checked every time

Adding to this point,

NDT inspectors are specialised and certified (here in the USA at least) and are definitely not cheap. I am sure they are cheaper in china, however not sure if they succumb to all the strict rigid standards of the ASNT (American society of nondestructive testing)

When checking weld quality there are several choices that factories usually employ to check
These include

Industrial radiography or CT scanning (think of x-rays)
Ultrasonic testing
Liquid or dye penetrant testing
MPI or magnetic particle inspection (using current like eddy current)

In a proper weld, these tests would indicate a lack of cracks either visually or through a radiograph (clear passage of sound to indicate a clear smooth surface (machined)

However, most of the factories (not making complex or heavy duty parts for your common industries) probably just do VIsual testing (VT)
Visual inspection is just cost-effective and doesn’t require much equipment usually just a mirror a pocket rule a weld gauge however due to the time constraints, i believe many small shops/factories are in a rush and rut they neglect to check thoroughly the components that were welded.

Usually VT is done on simple components and simple factories that usually make widgets and nothing more intricate then that.... There is just no reason to invest in proper equipment for a small MANPROS to through time, money and energy at; again this has to do with plant selection from the onset and if they are even a good fit or else they may be of a disservice to your long term needs.

 

[amp0193]

Bro if i had the time, I’d go to china myself and fix all of the problems! Not a bad idea haha

I'll buy you a plane ticket!

 

[Philip Marlowe]

@Arun Siva - This is pure gold. Thanks for dropping so much knowledge here. Rep+!!!

 

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[amp0193]

There you go, a lesson in what NOT to do. Hopefully someone reads this and takes something away from it. .

Awesome story @nitroheadz28 , I always wondered what the back story was on all of that.

What a nightmare.

At least you only put in 5k.

If the factory just isn’t capable of quality, I don’t know if any amount of @Arrabista relationship building is going to solve the problem.

@Arun Siva is expanding our minds in this thread and uncovering just how difficult sourcing correctly can be. Anyone who claims otherwise has just gotten lucky.

I’m never going to manufacture any sizeable order again until vetting a factory's capabilities first.

 

[Niptuck MD]

I’m never going to manufacture any sizeable order again until vetting a factory's capabilities first.

This. This is the punchline @amp0193
And the premise and undertones of this thread is to make sure people that are new (and experienced even) not take ANYTHING for granted. The factories and their personnel over there are very shrewd and are able to conjure up any sort of dog and pony show just to get RFQs and bids... only after do we as sourcers realize their status and their capacities and by then we will have spent some $$$ unfortunately.

 

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[Niptuck MD]

The factory received the PO but the production time they are now confirming has increased 20 days. But why Didn’t the Factory Tell Me Earlier?

Unexpected changes and surprise increases are part of the routine struggle when manufacturing and importing from China (or any other nation in the East). Why does the factory not inform of such detail in more of a timely fashion so it doesn’t become a last minute bearer of cumbersome news???

“Why Didn’t the Factory Tell Me Earlier” – this is exclaimed as you’re gritting your teeth, staring at your Skype window, anguish frustration brewing and your wondering how you’re going to tell your client.

Too Much Lag Time: Imagine; you contact your vendor for a quotation. Then like so many buyers, you disappear for 20 days and then come back with another question. This goes back and forth for another week or two. Then you decided on sampling.
The vendor expresses you a sample and you’re ready to sign off and start the project. At that moment, the vendor let’s you know something that’s the equivalent to them tossing a bucket of cold water all over you. The price shot up 20%. The lead time you confirmed and stressed 30 days ago is no longer on the table. (I had to deal with this several times with my custom spec’d product)

Keep in mind, that along with your piece-meal inquiry to the vendor (5 days discuss, 10 days silence, come back, leave, come back, finally a sample), the factory may have 15-25 more clients doing the same thing at that moment, plus their normal clients who consistently bring them MONEY.

So, when you ask, “Why didn’t the factory tell me earlier?”, you’re asking, “why didn’t they better manage my project for me and daily give me an update on all on-goings between them and the material vendor and the print shop and how busy they are on the floor... you get my drift.

Also keep in mind this expert project management you feel entitled to from the factory is before you’ve given them 1 red cent.

The factory has other fish to fry. If you want to play “now you see me, now you don’t” for 2 months over a $20,000.00 order (which is nothing to a factory), that’s fine. But don’t be surprised if minimal interest is taken in the project. Factories and Chinese vendors understand (to a degree) that the buyer side has to spend time to make a decision and sign-off. Buyers need to understand (also to a degree) that a factory operates like a big machine and has to keep CHURNING along often times just to break even no matter what and then make a profit.... its a rather perplexing machine nonetheless...

Lastly, another subtlety that wont be derived from skype convos nor emails is
Sadly enough,

You’re Not a Consistent Enough Buyer:

These types of problems happen less in retail than in other businesses because there is more consistency. New and custom product buyers frequently are reinventing the proverbial wheel therefore consistency isn’t a luxury. New materials, infrequent orders from 1 vendor, customization for lower-volume purchases; all these factors lead to more control on the factory side and the likelihood of more intangibles therefore, more excuses to take care of other more established customers within the factories hierarchical day to day system.

————————————————————————————————————
LONG STORY SHORT——— STAY ON TOP OF THOU SH*T!!!!! Keep the lines of communication always a two way street and engage with your team overseas.

 

[Niptuck MD]

Can you give some examples of penalties?

You said in an earlier post, that "45 days" can mean a lot of things. When is a shipment actually considered late? What is a reasonable penalty?

Depending on the relations with your existing supplier if they dont FOB or whichever incoterms you agree upon within a certain date (manufactured batch is done) i know that the big boys charge a penalty which kind of puts pressure on the manufacturer to get their (the bigger fish production batches done on schedule) kind of got them by the b*lls so to speak.... this puts smaller sourcers and importers on the back burner sometimes because the factory (the animal the beast) unfortunately responds to its hierarchy

I would set some solid terms (within reason) with a supplier that if they fail to communicate ANY sort of production mishaps or material sourcing issues etc etc that you must be credited an amount that you both think is fair... (LEVERAGE again the keyword)

What i am advocating is that even though you may be small on paper (they dont know that for sure) you still are entitled to somewhat of a fair and equal treatment when in regards to getting your products made despite all the intangibles and variables....

 

[Niptuck MD]

 

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[SYK]

This is a phenomenal thread. Big thanks for doing it! Must-read for anyone thinking of Chinese manufacturing.

Couple of questions...

1. Have you ever had an experience where mistakes were made in tooling which made them unusable? If so, how'd you deal with it?

2. Any experience working with overmolding? I'm currently doing this for a project of mine.

P.S. Some rep. $$$ coming your way!

 

[amp0193]

@Vigilante Time for a #notable on this thread? Tons of value.