Should I dumb down my content for people like @vigilante and @imgal?

[lowtek]

I'm reminded of the first rule of holes...

If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

 

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[Liberty T. Vance]

Only reason I read this was because of the subject line. Dumb down? Really???

Couldn't believe you directed it towards @Vigilante (sorry @Imgal never came across a post but hope I do in the future).

I simply find your writing long, annoying and similar to Anthony Robbins...

I did read one of your posts (ok, just a couple of paragraphs see previous sentence) and the first thing that came to mind: didn't I read that in Unlimited Power in the 90's?

Nothing original, groundbreaking or intelligent. Just rehashed self-help bullshit.

I wish I could get back the time I took to read your post and that book.

Anyhow, I've read quite a bit of what @Vigilante has written and his posts are always entertaining and informative.

Interesting how some friendly banter stirred up so many emotions.

Waiting around to see what else has come out of the woodwork before I reply to some of this...
View attachment 15440

^ Really? I think you have more than enough and after seeing the above referenced post my first thought: What an a**hole! My second thought: None. Because I won't read anything else you post.

I'm not a writer and I'm sure my posts show it but I do take a little time to try and make them relevant and short.

That being said I need to go thank @SinisterLex (mindset and Upwork), @Fox (web design) and @MJ DeMarco (TMF , UNSCRIPTED ) for helping me get my a$$ into gear and opening my eyes to a different world.

P.S. If I would've wrote this thread and gotten this reaction, my follow up post would've been a complete apology with no excuses or attempts at justifying my actions. I'm not a very nice person and generally an a**hole, but when I screw up I own it and take the steps to rectify the situation. You've done none of that.

 

[MitchC]

This thread is a waste of time. You didn't listen when people told you your videos were impossible to watch because you insisted on hiking and recording on your iPhone and your not listening now. Do you want to be right or do you want to be rich?

 

[JAJT]

Interesting how some friendly banter stirred up so many emotions.

Waiting around to see what else has come out of the woodwork before I reply to some of this...

Apparently this is all just amusing to him.

Lucky there's a feature for situations like this:

 

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[Vigilante]

My recommendation--- is to extend him grace for those not directly in the line of fire.

I did a radio show once where I was asked to respond to a PR crisis.

The best way to do that is to take it head on... swiftly, completely, and directly. Own it, fix it and roll on past it.

Maybe the worst thing you could do would be to make light of it.

Andrew is a young guy, finding his way and working out a few disconnects between his public persona and his history. He's a fighter and he'll get there eventually.

I would encourage you all to extend him some grace, let this die, and hopefully take away from this for yourselves how you might do things differently both personally and professionally.

We've all said stupid shit before. I am the master of saying stupid shit. I've had to learn by fire how to fix the mistakes I have made along the way.

Give him some grace, and this topic will die down as the next hot thread pops up.

- Dave

 

[AndrewNC]

I originally started writing this post the other morning after seeing an old high school friend of mine made a post about her anxiety taking over her life.

A few months earlier, I had this conversation with her where I sent her videos I created would would help her.


She didn't watch them, and I was frustrated that she continued to suffer. In between this time, I see her sharing all these random articles on Facebook and she has the personality type where the attention span all of 4 seconds. Going back to her, she said she didn't have the time to watch it.

The term "Dumb down" was in reference to long posts vs. short posts with the topic of attention span on my mind, not intellect.

When this happened, I reflected back on the convo I had with a marketing person and also the procrastination post I made on this forum - which obviously required a long-a$$ attention span to read it, and seeing how many people said nice things about it helping them. So in my mind, I made the connection to long, detailed things actually helping people, whereas most people who struggle want the "three bullet points" which don't actually help them, but give them that dopamine rush to make them feel good in the moment.

@Imgal and I joke from time to time on Skype in between all the marketing gold she drops on me every single time i talk to her.

In this defense, I actually don't think @AndrewNC meant offense by his title.

I assumed she knew it was just one of those times of joking around with her.

get more clicks

needlessly attacking Senior members

thread that tarnished Sinister Lex's name to get more clicks.

So in the friendly banter type of way and my own personal sense of humor, I included her quote and a screenshot of @Vigilante in there and quickly tagged them in the title on an impulse at the last second kind of saying "Hey, it's a close-knit community here, let's poke fun at each other in a joking type of manner". Similar to when @ZCP made that post and was giving shit to @jon.a for being so damn old (maybe my sarcastic sense of humor isn't apparent). That playful banter way of doing things was my same intent of with @SinisterLex 's post that was mentioned.

If I really wanted to attack someone, it would most likely be in a long detailed post. I thought by including the end of my post with #3 saying it didn't apply to them made it obvious. Guess I was wrong.

Doing stuff like tagging people made me feel like part of the community in some way.

Looking back at my original post, I can see how this could be mis-interpreted by those on the outside.

 

[AndrewNC]

Not good. Probably would have been better to not even post this. What was the point?

For the popcorn gif...It's because the real reason for me posting this thread had nothing to do with marketing at all, not any purposeful offensive attacks, and I was in disbelief how it blew up over me asking a question about length of articles and attention spans..which I now see came out the wrong way.

And the reason for that, as @Christopher777 said it...miscalibration on tagging people and using "dumb down" to refer to length of content..whoops.

And then I saw a few people people's real feelings come out me come out after they were nice to me in the past.

• Some was great constructive feedback, including yours and midwestlandlords even if he was direct and hurt me for a bit (and others), which I took to heart and will implement. Even if I don't post a direct reply, I let it sink in and put it to use (such as the YouTube videos someone mentioned before).
• Others were people rightfully defending their friends when it came off as an attacking thread - like fox and jajat.
• And then there were others who have been nice to me in the past, and I spent time exchanging conversation with them, and their real feelings came out from things before this thread even popped up, and I wanted to see who else felt that way.

It's for the third category which I posted it.

And for what MJ (and others) said about this post being carefully constructed for marketing...


The answer is no...
I see people struggling every day from things it took me, and many of us years to push through...and since 2014, I decided to learn everything I can about fixing these specific issues (lack of self-confidence, fear of failure, fear of rejection, procrastination, limiting beliefs, etc.) and many of these things literally take 10-20 minutes to fix.

Every time I see them going down the wrong path, I feel like screaming through the computer so they could avoid the problems we all faced. And then I see other people saying things like "just take action" (if someone is procrastinating) when that doesn't get through to 99% of the people who hear it.

The reason why I am so direct with saying how effective these things are (and might come off as arrogant) is because people don't understand how quick these major roadblocks are to fix, and think it is too good to be true.

• In the past, if I tried to tell people directly, I was bombarded with "How are you qualified to help me."
• Then when I switched to telling stories about myself to try to prove my qualifications, it came off as bragging.
• Then when I started talking about the effectiveness of helping others...it comes off as marketing.

If MJ or a moderator think that's my intent, they can look at this PM to someone the other week, which I want to remain private for...reasons you'll see.
https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/conversations/help-getting-you-started.70967/
Edit: if the above PM is somehow visible to anyone who are not moderators, please say so, so I can delete it - not meant to be public.

 

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[eliquid]

The correct answer to the original post is this, in this order:

1. Figure out YOUR goals.
2. Figure out YOUR audience.
3. Write to YOUR audience.
4. Split test your content ( length, tone, etc ).
5. The test that positively impacts towards YOUR goals, is the correct one to use.

Anything else, is time wasting and BS

 

[Kung Fu Steve]

For the popcorn gif...It's because the real reason for me posting this thread had nothing to do with marketing at all, not any purposeful offensive attacks, and I was in disbelief how it blew up over me asking a question about length of articles and attention spans..which I now see came out the wrong way.

And the reason for that, as @Christopher777 said it...miscalibration on tagging people and using "dumb down" to refer to length of content..whoops.

And then I saw a few people people's real feelings come out me come out after they were nice to me in the past.

• Some was great constructive feedback, including yours and midwestlandlords even if he was direct and hurt me for a bit (and others), which I took to heart and will implement. Even if I don't post a direct reply, I let it sink in and put it to use (such as the YouTube videos someone mentioned before).
• Others were people rightfully defending their friends when it came off as an attacking thread - like fox and jajat.
• And then there were others who have been nice to me in the past, and I spent time exchanging conversation with them, and their real feelings came out from things before this thread even popped up, and I wanted to see who else felt that way.

It's for the third category which I posted it.

And for what MJ (and others) said about this post being carefully constructed for marketing...

View attachment 15448
The answer is no...
I see people struggling every day from things it took me, and many of us years to push through...and since 2014, I decided to learn everything I can about fixing these specific issues (lack of self-confidence, fear of failure, fear of rejection, procrastination, limiting beliefs, etc.) and many of these things literally take 10-20 minutes to fix.

Every time I see them going down the wrong path, I feel like screaming through the computer so they could avoid the problems we all faced. And then I see other people saying things like "just take action" (if someone is procrastinating) when that doesn't get through to 99% of the people who hear it.

The reason why I am so direct with saying how effective these things are (and might come off as arrogant) is because people don't understand how quick these major roadblocks are to fix, and think it is too good to be true.

• In the past, if I tried to tell people directly, I was bombarded with "How are you qualified to help me."
• Then when I switched to telling stories about myself to try to prove my qualifications, it came off as bragging.
• Then when I started talking about the effectiveness of helping others...it comes off as marketing.

If MJ or a moderator think that's my intent, they can look at this PM to someone the other week, which I want to remain private for...reasons you'll see.
https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/conversations/help-getting-you-started.70967/
Edit: if the above PM is somehow visible to anyone who are not moderators, please say so, so I can delete it - not meant to be public.

Bro... just apologize.

 

[SteveO]

2. Figure out YOUR audience.

... and the audience should not be this forum...

I should not be casting stones though. Years ago, I was looking for investors and was getting some from here.

 

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[MitchM]

For the popcorn gif...It's because the real reason for me posting this thread had nothing to do with marketing at all, not any purposeful offensive attacks, and I was in disbelief how it blew up over me asking a question about length of articles and attention spans..which I now see came out the wrong way.

And the reason for that, as @Christopher777 said it...miscalibration on tagging people and using "dumb down" to refer to length of content..whoops.

And then I saw a few people people's real feelings come out me come out after they were nice to me in the past.

• Some was great constructive feedback, including yours and midwestlandlords even if he was direct and hurt me for a bit (and others), which I took to heart and will implement. Even if I don't post a direct reply, I let it sink in and put it to use (such as the YouTube videos someone mentioned before).
• Others were people rightfully defending their friends when it came off as an attacking thread - like fox and jajat.
• And then there were others who have been nice to me in the past, and I spent time exchanging conversation with them, and their real feelings came out from things before this thread even popped up, and I wanted to see who else felt that way.

It's for the third category which I posted it.

And for what MJ (and others) said about this post being carefully constructed for marketing...

View attachment 15448
The answer is no...
I see people struggling every day from things it took me, and many of us years to push through...and since 2014, I decided to learn everything I can about fixing these specific issues (lack of self-confidence, fear of failure, fear of rejection, procrastination, limiting beliefs, etc.) and many of these things literally take 10-20 minutes to fix.

Every time I see them going down the wrong path, I feel like screaming through the computer so they could avoid the problems we all faced. And then I see other people saying things like "just take action" (if someone is procrastinating) when that doesn't get through to 99% of the people who hear it.

The reason why I am so direct with saying how effective these things are (and might come off as arrogant) is because people don't understand how quick these major roadblocks are to fix, and think it is too good to be true.

• In the past, if I tried to tell people directly, I was bombarded with "How are you qualified to help me."
• Then when I switched to telling stories about myself to try to prove my qualifications, it came off as bragging.
• Then when I started talking about the effectiveness of helping others...it comes off as marketing.

If MJ or a moderator think that's my intent, they can look at this PM to someone the other week, which I want to remain private for...reasons you'll see.
https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/conversations/help-getting-you-started.70967/
Edit: if the above PM is somehow visible to anyone who are not moderators, please say so, so I can delete it - not meant to be public.

I never thought you were being as calculated as others were implying. You made a mistake when it came to the thread title and how you handled the responses. I've done worse.

It's really doesn't matter at all, but honestly this thread can be a goldmine for you if you let it.

 

[jon.a]

... and the audience should not be this forum...

I should not be casting stones though. Years ago, I was looking for investors and was getting some from here.

That was different, you were low key and to the point. At least the time that I remember.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

... and the audience should not be this forum...

Actually, a good portion of it is. They might not post and just lurk. I think we underestimate how many people don't post and just read.

At the end of the day, I think Andrew needs to look at it like this:

My technique has been effective to a small group of people... however, can it actually be MORE effective if I change my approach?

I don't think you should confuse results with effectiveness.

Look at it in basketball terms...

Just because you shoot 30% at the free-throw line (results) doesn't mean you are good (effective) at shooting free-throws. A good free-thrower hits 80 and 90%. Changing your approach might improve your overall effectiveness, and grow your business/brand/results.

 

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[SteveO]

Actually, a good portion of it is. They might not post and just lurk. I think we underestimate how many people don't post and just read.

It seems to me that most of the efforts targeted at forum members has not worked out well. Perhaps it was just the high profile stuff.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

It seems to me that most of the efforts targeted at forum members has not worked out well.

Depends on who the message hits; guys like you and I might not be moved by the prose because we are old farts with more life wisdom. Yet, someone 19 years old and struggling to make $100 at a flea market might feel otherwise.

 

[eliquid]

struggling to make $100 at a flea market

Flea market? Damn you are old @MJ DeMarco

What's next, penny arcade?

 

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[Lucid Tech]

The term "Dumb down" was in reference to long posts vs. short posts with the topic of attention span on my mind, not intellect.

Communication is not about what you meant to say. It is about what the other person thinks you meant to say.

"Dumbing down is the deliberate oversimplification of intellectual content within education, literature, cinema, news, video games and culture in order to relate to those unable to assimilate more sophisticated information." Dumbing down - Wikipedia

Is it any wonder this came across with such a negative connotation?

 

[bitsinmyblood]

Believing that reducing the length of a text is dumbing it down is a pretty shallow perspective. Quantity is a separate metric not attached to or dependent on quality. People are asking for a shorter read, not an easier read. I doubt anyone here lacks the horsepower to conceptualize what you're saying.

From what I've read of your posts a few things come to mind

1) You're at a high level
2) You enjoy flexing your intellectual muscle
3) Lots of 'noise' in your writing

One thing to think about is why? Why shorten it? Why?

Its been mentioned a few times:

Communication is not about what you meant to say. It is about what the other person thinks you meant to say.

"Dumbing down is the deliberate oversimplification of intellectual content within education, literature, cinema, news, video games and culture in order to relate to those unable to assimilate more sophisticated information." Dumbing down - Wikipedia

Is it any wonder this came across with such a negative connotation?

What are you, mad? Who doesn't like to be told they don't have the mental horsepower to 'hang?

This thread has been all over the place.

I don't think the problem is overly complicated content and theory, the problem is valuing our time. If a person is a concise and masterful writer, their concepts can be effortlessly communicated without insulting the audience nor is it necessary to write a novel on a subject that could be a few sentences or paragraphs. What I've found is that the more intelligent a person is, the less patience they have for reading repetitive text. Say what you need to say, that's it. Don't look at your content as a rubix cube which you are required to explain every arrangement from every perspective. Stand back, provide the concept and context then articulate your own perspective. Then, move on to something else.

I hope everyone is having an awesome week!

 

[Sean Kaye]

Forum marketing is stupidly lucrative.

If you can go into communities, contribute, be a decent human being and show value - the 80% of lurkers will gravitate towards you.

Assuming that the vocal portion of a community represent the lurkers is a rookie mistake in my opinion.

 

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[Tim Allen Jr.]

So I've been getting a lot of feedback lately that my writing is too long.

My blog posts, email newsletter, guest articles on various websites, and you see some of it here.

@Vigilante and @Imgal - commented on the length of it.

GOLD - I'm sorry, but this is going to be painful for a lot of you...



View attachment 15405

For one of my free offers, I have a 7-part video course (takes an hour to go through) that will teach them everything they need to know in order to fix a specific (large) problem in their life. I created the course knowing that the people who take the time to go through it will 100% have their problem fixed.

• From a business growth perspective - If I solve this problem in their lives - they will be grateful, and they will most likely buy my book and other products in the future if I've already made such an impact for free...
• From a value-add perspective - Why water down my content and give a half-assed approach when the goal is to actually fix a problem?

But then I was talking to a marketing consultant who said it's was wayyyyy too long (along with 50 other people who have said the same thing).

She said instead, I should have a quick 2-minute video or 3 page pdf as a "lead magnet", which people can easily digest. The average attention span is less than that of a goldfish nowadays.

If I dumb down my content, I will get more subscribers, and more people engaged....

The core of my brand is to help people do big things (which require a multi-year attention span). Think similar to the dedication and focus it requires to build a business, or move up in the world of acting/art/sports.

If I dumb down my content, I'll be attracting the type of person who wants the quick fix and doesn't have the persistence to accomplish what the brand helps people accomplish.

So if I make the shorter content, I'll attract the type of people who would rather get their next social media-quick fix; which is not the type of person who usually goes on to these types of things.

Is this really the type of person I want to be helping?

So I'm thinking lately that I shouldn't compromise the quality of what I put out, based on the wrong type of people...

If somebody is truly committed to fixing this problem in their life, they'll go through the hour-long course, or spend 15 minutes to read the long article. And when they do that, they'll actually get everything they need, instead of an easy 7-step bullet point quick fix...which doesn't actually solve the problem.

Which will mean less subscribers...

There are three types of people in this world:

1. The quick-fix zombies who don't have the persistence to build anything big in their lives, yet alone read a 15-minute article or take an hour-long free course that will fix a problem in their life.

2. The ones who have the persistence and actually have the traits that will lead to them being successful.

3. People like Imgal and Vigilante who are already on track and not part of my target market.

My gut is telling me to stick with putting everything out there (not matter how long it takes) to solve the problems of people who are actually committed to taking the time and experience results in their life; instead of watering down the content to attract the wrong people.

Thoughts?

First things first, new member here, love this damn site, good to see like minded people together.

Okay to my thoughts:

Why not do both? You obv. know your stuff, so it it should be possible to give tweet size teasers, essentially titles. Good, bad or indifferent, it is what it is like you said.

The right people will filter out and read your stuff either way, but would give you a way to engage with people.

The way i look at it - feedback from your customers or potential customers is always valuable, and the fact that they left feedback is even more important.

you give solid advice, they're just telling you how they want it. Your passionate about your stuff which will appeal to serious customers, but your insights can till appeal to window shoppers.

tl;dr - dont stop doing what you are passionate about (writing solid/detailed info), because then you'll stop enjoying what you do, but don't leave opportunity and leave consumer feedback on the table.

Also, you could just test it, and change otherwise.

 

[Tim Allen Jr.]

Flea market? Damn you are old @MJ DeMarco

What's next, penny arcade?

lol, on a side note, I did know someone who grossed 100k a year with a flea market business.

 

[bitsinmyblood]

Forum marketing is stupidly lucrative.

If you can go into communities, contribute, be a decent human being and show value - the 80% of lurkers will gravitate towards you.

Assuming that the vocal portion of a community represent the lurkers is a rookie mistake in my opinion.

Ah..

 

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[Roli]

Not sure if the OP is still watching this thread, but if you are; two things.

1. The market has spoken, your posts are too long.

2. You need to Sinister lE X up your posts, read this; 15 Days to Freedom - Make Money Copywriting in 15 Days or Less
especially Day 3, and you will understand how to make a long post engaging.

 

[Roli]

@Imgal

As is usually the case around here, a thread that should have been landfill material ends up with gold follow-up posts that are relevant well beyond the OP.

Thanks all.

Yup, I'm imagining y'all talking directly to me; so many great answers.

 

[100k]

Please dumb it down and shorten it for the masses.

It takes skills to be able to abbreviate and condense information to its most potent elements without taking anything away from the core message.

Here's a GREAT example of what that looks like in my humble opinion: https://booknotes.quora.com/Notes-on-Millionaire-Fastlane-by-DeMarco

 

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[100k]

It does not mean that your content is too hard to read. People don't stop reading because they are confused. And if they do, it means you are not doing a good job of communicating. I think you need to look at your own writing style. If enough people tell you it's too long, then it is too long!

Instead of blaming others for not understanding your content and calling them stupid, you need to see what you are doing wrong.

But that would mean he'd need to put on his big boy pants on.... not sure he wants to do that.

Everyone here is wrong, and Andrew is right.... lmbao.

 

[cutthroughstatic]

Great advice here. This is all pertinent to myself as well, as the posts I have written on my own website have been criticized as WAY too long. Andrew, I can give you a run for your money buddy. My stuff is verbose.

I try to cut it down and edit it, but I'm STILL left with posts that are 4x the average blog post.

What I've done for my absolutely FUNDAMENTAL topics that can't be shortened is turn them into a blog series, and release the posts one by one. This makes them more digestable.

For the longest time I just thought it was a problem with other people. Can't read through my posts? Your problem, not mine. Now after reading the feedback on here for Andrew, I'll admit it IS my problem. People's time is valuable, and until you earn that trust, why should you expect to own the time? It's not about short attention spans, it's about earning the trust of people enough that they are willing to offer you their time.

This has been incredibly helpful. Now back to editing my super long posts and trying to make them concise yet impactful.

 

[Vigilante]

What I've done for my absolutely FUNDAMENTAL topics that can't be shortened is turn them into a blog series, and release the posts one by one. This makes them more digestable.

GREAT point. I did this with a series I wrote on the OODA loop and spread them out over several days.

 

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[AndrewNC]

... and the audience should not be this forum...

I found my balance on this.

Writing about the topics you and I spoke on the phone about that last time...writing to people who are interested in that topic.

I published an article on a mainstream media outlet last year and got an email from someone who is interested on writing the same topics as me, but she is a self-proclaimed perfectionist; letting that get in the way of her ever putting anything out. I used to suffer from that, so that's why I type from flow state and get things out quickly.

In her email from something else I sent over to her since (no editing, took me all of 15 minutes to write):
"Hey! Bravo! You kept me reading, and even at a faster paced speed than I typically do because I was so interested in what you had to say next!

Are you planning on having an editor, because there are a few things that could be tweaked- (maybe it's the need in me Or the attorney in me that had spotted a few things...). You are a great writer! "

After a few exchanges and getting to know each other, we are going to publish my third (her first) book together. Her perfectionism will tip the scales away from my speed of execution.

My initial reply:
"Either we will balance each other out perfectly, or drive each other crazy."

So the solution is two-fold:

1. Play into my strengths, continue to push content out quickly, and get the lesson across in a way that creates changes. (speed and execution)
2. For the book and blog articles on that topic, she'll polish up the edges and touch it up. (design and quality). FoundR Magazine has a good article out that talks about design quality https://foundrmag.com/become-an-influencer/

A perfect balance to grow quickly, not let perfectionism get in the way, and get the message across to the right people.

I've notice more and more people appear in my life lately where I've typed long emails to without editing who are taking action on the advice I give to help them, despite not editing it. In the past, I was trying to speak to people who didn't take action, so I adjusted the approach and now I found people who do.

 

[GuestUser4aMPs1]

Got turned on to something today that reminded me of this thread.
Hemingway is a web app that identifies areas where you can make your post more readable.

Here is a screenshot when you first go on the site:



If we copy+paste the message you posted directly above this post, here is the output:

When we scroll down:



This won't replace the need for intelligent writing, but it's a great resource to spot-check posts.

@AndrewNC cheers. Hope it helps.
(Hemingway omitted two adverbs and broke up one long sentence from this post).